Ranger/Sapper basic training (Should Drill Sergeants be Ranger/Sapper qualified to instruct Infantry/Engineer recruits?)

2015-05-22T21:12:48-04:00

Alright, the PVT is throwing in some thoughts again. So, wouldn't it be more beneficial is for infantry osut, the drill sergeants have all gone and graduated from ranger school. Likewise is combat engineer osut, if the drill sergeants went and graduated from sapper school. I feel that would be a bit more beneficial. Thoughts?

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2015 9:14 PM

2015-05-22T21:14:23-04:00

When i say beneficial i mean theyve all completed the advanced school for their mos so that may some how be better to teach or they can bring their knowledge to the table? Don't mind me just random thoughts.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2015 9:17 PM

2015-05-22T21:17:39-04:00

Those tabs are special identifiers. And served as Subject Matter Experts. Now that doesn't mean that they k ow that much more if anymore than someone that takes their job just as serious... A normal 12B with airborne and all the other cool stuff might even know more that a Sapper tab. Oh thing I would say is keep all OSUT training Drill Sergeants MOS related.

Response by SFC Joseph James made May 22 at 2015 9:33 PM

2015-05-22T21:33:12-04:00

Yes, but not possible. Ranger school knocks out a LARGE percent of potential Infantry drill sergeants. The Army has great Infantry NCO's but not all of them can pass a school like that. Ranger makes a good NCO better, but not the BEST!

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made May 22 at 2015 10:05 PM

2015-05-22T22:05:58-04:00

I still don't get it, having a drill sgt with tabs doesn't do anything with knowledge, Any drill sgt tabs or no tabs will teach you everything to make sure you come out as a soldier with your specific mos skill.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2015 7:00 PM

2015-05-23T19:00:22-04:00

It would be great but Ranger really isn't something that is meant for an instructor. It is more for the operational side of the house. When you get to your unit that is where you will want a Ranger Qualed guy at. Keep in mind that there really aren't that many Ranger qualified soldiers in the Army and most of them are Officers. When I finished Ranger a LTC there told us there was roughly only 7000 Ranger qualified NCOs in the Army. I thought that was a bit low. Then we were about to grad we had to get our orders for the Ranger Tab. We had to got into two lines. One for Enlisted and one for officers. Out of 130 of us only about 30 or so were NCOs. We were an extremely Officer heavy class. I am not sure if it always like that. But when you go to unit you will see few and far between.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2015 8:07 PM

2015-05-23T20:07:47-04:00

Just because they went to a hooah school such as ranger or dapper does not mean they will have any more tactical training skills than one that hasn't. In some cases the drill sergeants without the badge candy were better instructors

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2015 8:13 PM

2015-05-23T20:13:20-04:00

It's something that briefs well. But, consider the secondary effects of saying that all the instructors for the largest MOS in the Army must have a tab that is one of the hardest to get. You either end up with not enough instructors who can pass, not enough slots to send them, or you have to lower the standards to pass.
Also, a lot of instructors are SSG's with quite a few years under their belts. They don't want to go to Ranger School. Ranger Branch has enough trouble filling RI positions with eligible people; they can't be expected to give up people to be Drill Sergeants for 2 years.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2015 8:15 PM

2015-05-23T20:15:20-04:00

Why just stop at a Ranger Tab. Why not make all Drill Sergeants be Ranger Qualified and Special Forces Qualified? They would make awesome Drill Sergeants and bring plenty of experience. Except there are not that many of them around and you don't need that level of experience to teach Basic Rifle Marksmanship.

You'd also virtually limit all Drill Sergeant slots to 11Bs who served in Light Infantry units, particularly Airborne Light Infantry units, because they get the lion's share of Ranger School slots. Sounds like a great idea until you consider the fact that an 11B from the 82nd Airborne with a Ranger Tab isn't going to tell you much about a Bradely Fighting Vehicle.

The fact is, most new recruits to the Infantry will not be going to the 82nd Airborne Division, the two separate Airborne Infantry Brigades, or the 75th Ranger Regiment. They are going to go to other light infantry units, mechanized infantry units, or even be a dismount for a cavalry unit or even an armored unit. That means that in order to develop a well rounded recruit, you need well rounded instructors. On top of that Ranger tabbed paratrooper, you need an NCO from the 3rd ID who is Master Gunner qualified whose unit only gets 5 Ranger slots a year.

On top of that, what exactly is a Ranger Tab? It is a piece of cloth that represents successful graduation from a course 62 days in length. Just like any school, the skill is perishable. If the guy got his tab 8 years ago as a PFC and is now an E-7, is the Ranger Tab really relevant? Think about it....it is as the old saying goes, it is the man that makes the tab, the tab doesn't make the man.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made May 24 at 2015 12:35 AM

2015-05-24T00:35:28-04:00

Drill Sergeants only teach the basics. Any good NCO, gone through the Drill Sergeant course can teach/lead trainees through the basics/AIT. No need for Ranger school as a requirement for DS. Being a Drill Sergeant takes a special breed, and not every good NCO fits the bill. It's not practical, not needed for Drill Sergeants to be Ranger qualified. Think about it, Basic is the basics! You really learn your job and skills once you reach your duty station - that's their responsibility.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2015 10:03 AM

2015-05-24T10:03:53-04:00

The fundamental issue here is Basic Combat Training is exactly that - Basic. It focuses on the individual military training, not small unit or specific branch requirements. OSUT follow-on related training after the first 9 weeks might benefit from instructors with specialized qualifications such as Ranger or Sapper, but intent has been to baseline instruction not focus on specific TTPs. The question is whether the juice is worth the squeeze.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2015 5:24 PM

2015-05-24T17:24:18-04:00

I'm going to chalk this up to you having not been to Infantry OSUT. Once you go through the Basic training portion, you will understand what everyone is saying with it being just that, the Basics. Not everyone can go to Ranger school and they have a high wash out rate so it's not plausible to have as many DSs as we need to be Ranger qualified. Basic is not the end all, be all. It's a solid foundation to build upon.

Response by LTC David Stender made May 24 at 2015 5:29 PM

2015-05-24T17:29:33-04:00

PVT Hitt,
Better trained Drill Sergeants are always nice. The issue is managing assignments. The units deploying and training want these same qualifications. Your DI can be just as effective w/o the additional training and have been doing so for years. Many who would like to have the school qualification have been deployed and might get the chance between cycles or as they leave.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2015 5:29 PM

2015-05-24T17:29:49-04:00

Kind of irrelevant. The guys in charge of getting you from a soggy mess into a soldier don't have time to make you anything more than a Private. Hence why things like Ranger/Sapper/Airborne/Air Assault are not part of the Basic Training experience because not everyone has them. They aren't basic.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 9:56 AM

2015-05-26T09:56:35-04:00

read the article below, this may help you understand why is so difficult to get NCOs to Ranger School. granted there are NCOs out their that have the Tab and are drills; they are just making themselves better as well as the Army.

the stats on Ranger Qualified NCOs fluctuates, when I was an RI from 2009-2012 the numbers were low then too. 450ish (I cant remember the exact number) but that is it across the entire service. now you have to understand how that breaks down to RGR Reg, RTB and the rest of the operational force. hope that makes sense for you.

http://www.militaryhub.com/article?id=328

How Longer Deployments Cut Ranger School NCOs

Between 2007 and 2011, the number of Ranger-qualified NCOs has dropped, mainly in the low and mid-grade range. Less qualified NCOs means fewer current Ranger E-5s and E-6s, as well as fewer service members moving up to senior Ranger NCO ranks.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 3:06 PM

2015-05-26T15:06:35-04:00

Not at all. Ranger School is nothing more than a more elite Infantry(ish) leadership school. It doesnt make you a better anything. It just teaches you more advanced way of handling things. The same is said for Sapper School for engineers. The problems with requiring that as a qualification for DS in a certain unit are:
1.) You'll have Drills trying to teach WAY more advanced skills and methods than are approved by the 350-6.
2.)DSs are not chosen specifically for certain units. They are shuffled around as needed. So why would you need a bunch of super-hooah Ranger DSs at Ft. Jackson, where you get an Infantry (prior service, usually) BCT cat, maybe once every 6-7 cycles?
3.) DS School is more often than not, a Draft Pick, not volunteer. Most DSs are selected for it without their choice. so most of them would then be required to attend Ranger/Sapper only to then turn and attend DSS? That is a waste of Military funds and resources.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 8:18 AM

2015-12-29T08:18:57-05:00

Absolutely not. It doesn't matter what a Drill Sergeants MOS is. RANGER school and SAPPER school are individual schools. There are tabbed drill sergeants in BCT and OSUT. I was in drill sergeant school with a green beret and I think he is at Ft. Jackson now. Your going to see a ton of drill sergeants but few of them have tabs.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 9:26 AM

2016-06-15T09:26:47-04:00

Response by MSG David Johnson made Jul 26 at 2017 12:16 PM

2017-07-26T12:16:37-04:00

Being a graduate of the Sapper Leader Course, which I'm told was different than the Sapper School, yes, it would be a great qualification. But, saying this, I do not think it should be a requirement.
I had orders for DSS that were deferred due to ODS in '91, then deleted when we came back in May '91 so did not have the opportunity to use my training to assist young Soldiers just coming into the Army.
IMHO being Ranger, or Sapper should not be a requirement.
That being said, I had a couple Vietnam Vets as Drill Sergeants for my OSUT class in 1983.

Response by SP6 Timmy Hayden made Dec 11 at 2017 5:19 PM

2017-12-11T17:19:38-05:00

I don’t think it really matters. One of the most competent NCOs I ever met was a drill sergeant from Fort Leonard Wood who wasn’t a ranger or a sapper. Similarly, when I went through EOCA school most of our instructors were EOD techs or retired EOD techs. We had one instructor that was an engineer and he knew the identification manuals better than the senior EOD techs at the class.

Response by LTC Raymond Buenteo made Dec 20 at 2020 11:15 AM

2020-12-20T11:15:39-05:00

I would want my ranger/sapper qualified NCOs in my units leading and training my new soldiers coming from AIT.