Rank vs. Position. How does an E5 Platoon Sergeant deal with an insubordinate E6 in his Platoon?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:02:58 -0500

I am an E5, who has been placed in a PSG position over an E6. He demonstrated that he was incapable of fulfilling the role, and was removed. I was placed over him, but have not made the promotion list yet. How do I deal with disciplining him when he out ranks me? Is there anything in regulation which covers this?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2019 2:07 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:07:14 -0500

You take it to your Platoon Leader. Here is what I mean by this: By position you outrank him, therefore you can administer corrective training. Since you do not outrank him by stripes, your platoon leader is their rater. If you are having issues with this SSG not adhering to your platoon sergeantship duties and orders, you should have a sit down with this SSG, the PL, and yourself...this way, there will be no misunderstandings as to where each person sits on the food chain. Before all three of you sit down, you should have a sit down with the LT to ensure they have your back and will support you. Also, when you counsel the SSG (Which you can do since you outrank them by position), establish every single LEFT/RIGHT boundaries that they have and your expectations of said SSG.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2019 2:22 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:22:55 -0500

I agree with SFC Livingston, get your chain of command involved and establish some boundaries, not sure if this soldier is a rag bag or just someone who leadership does not suit. I know when I was a squad leader for the WWTU, I had a SFC and a MSG assigned to my squad.

Response by SGT Randell Rose made Nov 25 at 2019 2:32 PM

SGT Randell Rose — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:32:40 -0500

I agree with SFC Livingston. Rank is one thing but your position places you in charge. Seek help with this problem. Mission before hurt feelings and that's what you're dealing with. Good Luck you've got this.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2019 2:53 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:53:55 -0500

You know, most times when I read comments on RP, I’m always like, “dude, ask your CoC or NCOSP.” But wow, you got me on this because I am very interested to hear the back story of this.
Also, how are you in a Infantry unit that doesn’t have ANY E-7’s to fill that role?
Good for you for getting the position, but how temporary is it? Is the SSG being “non-responsive” because you are talking to him like a peer, subordinate, or person of higher rank? You are in a tough situation.

Response by SPC Robert Hendrickson made Nov 25 at 2019 3:05 PM

SPC Robert Hendrickson — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:05:41 -0500

A few regs are to cover that incident.. I was in that same situation being the lesser rank but was in authority..my situ was an emergency case .. The regs have changed since the 70s-80s. So if prior was in dereliction of duty you are/was approved to do the duty..ies of a true soldier

Response by SPC Stewart Smith made Nov 25 at 2019 3:39 PM

SPC Stewart Smith — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:39:47 -0500

Punch him square in the throat and threaten him with more physical violence if he tells anyone.
JK. SFC Thomas Livingston gave a great response.

Response by MSG Gary Eckert made Nov 25 at 2019 3:42 PM

MSG Gary Eckert — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:42:23 -0500

You do not out rank him. By AR 600-20 the first determination of seniority is grade. With-in grade there are precedents concerning DOR and other factors that determine seniority. Under the Army Command Policy regulation you cannot be de facto senior to this SSG.
What does potentially apply in your situation; although, it should not apply unless the SSG has been formally relieved is para 2-b, AR600-20 which states in part: "However, commanders subdivide responsibility and authority and assign portions of both to various subordinate commanders and staff members. In this way, a proper degree of responsibility becomes inherent in each command echelon. Commanders delegate sufficient authority to Soldiers in the chain of command to accomplish their assigned duties, and commanders may hold these Soldiers responsible for their actions. Commanders who assign responsibility and authority to their subordinates still retain the overall responsibility for the actions of their commands.
This authority can only be granted by the Commander (not the platoon leader, first sergeant, etc) and it should be done by formally to include notifying the SSG you are acting on Commander's behalf. That is a lot of responsibility for a Commander to place on a SGT. If I was the Commander, I would either put the SSG in the Platoon Sergeant position and hold his feet to the fire or move him under a more senior NCO or Officer that can give him lawful/direct orders using their own authority bestowed by their rank. Additionally, that senior person and can also rate the SSG. Even with the Commander's authority you won't be able to rate the soldier.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Nov 25 at 2019 4:57 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:57:30 -0500

Yes there is a reg, but 1st take it to PL. Your were appointed to fill the slot above him, he can/will give you the respect/follow orders or suffer the consequences.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Nov 25 at 2019 5:43 PM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 17:43:36 -0500

There's a lot of questions that come to mind -
Firstly - Why did your Company Commander leave him in your platoon - simple common sense should have made his removal after relief a no brainer.
Secondly, Where does this PL stand in all this - do you have one? If the LT relived the SSG then he can be subject to UCMJ for violation of the AR 600-20 command authority specification areas - tantamount to mutiny. Yourself should be fine in that regard, but you are obligated to report the action to the command authority above the PL in a timely manner. Since you are using a computer to chat here I assume you have already done so via at minimum email.
Last question - Are their no other SSGs or SFC (even another MOS would be preferable to the mess you've immersed) in your unit? I just don't see how the situation has been allowed to continue. Its a morale crusher for the whole platoon. There will be other discipline problems cropping up within your platoon because the precedence has been set.
I did take charge of a platoon as a SGT E5 once when the PL and other senior leadership were out on contact during a leaders recon - but that was a special case. I did outrank everyone present.
In regards to yourself - Soldier on, Mind your P&Qs, Cross your t's and Dot your i's because you will be closely observed. You are in an unenviable position.

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made Nov 25 at 2019 6:13 PM

MSG Danny Mathers — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 18:13:12 -0500

You should have direct access to the First Sergeant as all Platoon Sergeants do. The 1SG has more experience than a LT and can provide proper guidance in dealing with the SSG that most likely will be gone in short order. You should be knowledgeable that either another SSG or SFC will assume the position. View this as a learning opportunity.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2019 6:20 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 18:20:51 -0500

You're senior by billet, yet not by rank, so address any conflicts with someone senior to him/her. Talk to him/her first to see if their conduct changes - don't blind side them. Go from there. I don't think any leadership would not jump on it.

Response by SSG George Holtje made Nov 25 at 2019 11:01 PM

SSG George Holtje — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 23:01:12 -0500

Your 1SG might also advise the SSG concerning his attitude. I have put PV2s over SPCs to remind the senior soldiers that they are expected to act a certain way.

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Nov 25 at 2019 11:11 PM

MAJ Javier Rivera — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 23:11:27 -0500

So many questions that comes to my mind by reading thin post. Just wondering where were the CO and 1SG? Not questioning your ability, I had a SSG for a 1SG for over a year and he exponentially excelled! Is just that I sense something is missing in this equation... but it’s not for us to know!

Response by CPL Gary Pifer made Nov 25 at 2019 11:23 PM

CPL Gary Pifer — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 23:23:49 -0500

He may suffer from health or disability problems.. combat? You ain't gonna be there for long..so I wouldn't ruffle any feathers.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Nov 26 at 2019 1:38 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 13:38:19 -0500

I have never heard of this happening in a Marine unit. Ever. The E6 would have been pulled from the platoon and placed in a BS job at the company or squadron level awaiting his eventual discharge, transfer, ass whooping.
However, you seem to be stuck with it.
Step 1, Issue a lawful order that you know he ain't gonna like. Make sure it is something enforceable.
Step 2, Wait for him to cross the line. Repeat x3.
Step 3, After 3 strike, write his ass up and force your chain of command to do their jobs, which they should have already done.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2019 5:52 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:52:38 -0500

Beat him.

Response by PO2 Nick Burke made Nov 27 at 2019 7:42 AM

PO2 Nick Burke — Wed, 27 Nov 2019 07:42:22 -0500

Been in this situation. Mine was due to qualifications. I stood Duty Engineering Officer in port as an E5. As such I was also Ship's Fire Marshal. I had a couple of E6s under my command. Some were fine after we talked. 2 were not. I went to the CMC. One actually apologized then and there. The other was still an issue until he was told point blank if he didn't square his shit away immediately he would be up for E5 in short order. We all learned a lot about positional authority.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Nov 27 at 2019 8:53 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Wed, 27 Nov 2019 08:53:46 -0500

While I agree with most of what has already been said, I will offer another perspective. Much of my time as a PSG was in an HQ PLT. Quite often, members of my PLT outranked me, sometimes by a lot. (At one point in time the post CG and CSM were in my PLT.) One of the things I had to learn was how to motovate folks senior to me, and how to tactfully make people comply with directives. You say this SSG is being insubordinate (and that he was also insubordinate with the 1SG). It is possible he is a lost cause. BUT... Try to find a way to motivate this NCO. He is still a person and still a Soldier. He is presenting you a leadership challenge in how to motivate. While utilizing the CoC is great, and may be necessary, take the opportunity to try and find a way that you, as in inspirational/motivational leader can put the Soldier back on the right track. Absolutely use the 1SG, PL, and/or CO as backup if necessary. But challenge yourself to grow as a leader and find ways to motivate even the "bad apples."

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2019 11:50 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 Nov 2019 23:50:54 -0500

I would always show respect, but that was how I treated everyone. I would pose that question up the chain of command.

Response by CPT William Jones made Nov 30 at 2019 6:23 PM

CPT William Jones — Sat, 30 Nov 2019 18:23:55 -0500

THIS SITUATION SHOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED. the CO should have transferred the relieved SSG at the same time. One should never relieve and move a SR under someone Jr to him especially in the same unit.The SGT needs to talk to his immediate commander and get the situation corrected.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2019 7:45 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Dec 2019 19:45:08 -0500

Start with the paperwork.
Counsel and establish standards and then discipline as any other Soldier.

Response by SFC Orlando Threadgill made Dec 16 at 2019 6:50 PM

SFC Orlando Threadgill — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 18:50:30 -0500

First of all a SGT being in charge of a PLatoon when a SSG is in the ranks is wrong in the first place unless your COC are akin to degrading and silliness. If the SSG was not up to the task, a ROC should have been done after corrective training failed Seems like a failure of your whole COC. There isn’t not such thing that you out rank someone by position when they clearly out ranks you. He should not be in the platoon at all. Seems like the SSG will have a legitimate IG complaint. I would like to say any good command team would have move the individual. Even after you get pomoted he will put rank you. Please reference AR600-20.

Response by 1stSgt Timothy Phillips made Dec 26 at 2019 12:47 PM

1stSgt Timothy Phillips — Thu, 26 Dec 2019 12:47:46 -0500

I was an E-5 Sgt. acting platoon commander in Vietnam. A SSgt who had been in charge of my platoon came back from leave and thought he was going to take the platoon over again. He was a coward and had gotten Marines killed and wounded on a very bad operation we went on before he left for his leave. The CO we had when we were on the operation was replaced while the SSgt was on leave. I went to the new CO and told him that myself and the rest of the platoon who had been on that operation with the SSgt refused to take him back as our acting platoon commander. Apparently the new CO thought more of me than he did the SSgt, because he put him over another platoon. I also had a new Lt. come in and take the platoon over. He refused to listen to the squad leaders he went on patrols and ambushes with. I happened to be in the hospital with a fever when he showed up and did this. When I got back from the hospital I visited him in his tent and told him in no uncertain terms that from now on he would listen to the squad leaders and to me, because if he didn't his days would be numbered in Vietnam. He complained to the CO, the CO transferred him and put me back in charge of the platoon as acting platoon commander. This E-6 you have working for you must not be a good SNCO, that is why you were placed over him. Sit down and talk to him and explain to him that you are in charge. That what you say goes and that he has a choice to either follow your orders , ask for a transfer, or convince the powers that be that he should have your job. If he has any sense he will cooperate with you and get some reports, which will eventually get him promoted.

Response by SFC Donald York made Dec 29 at 2019 11:42 AM

SFC Donald York — Sun, 29 Dec 2019 11:42:23 -0500

Talk to the 1SG first and then the Platoon leader to request they talk to to talk to the Company Commander. I would almost bet that this situation can be fixed IF the command structure moved this SSG to another platoon where there is an E-7 Platoon Sergeant.

Response by CPT Don Kemp made Dec 29 at 2019 10:42 PM

CPT Don Kemp — Sun, 29 Dec 2019 22:42:53 -0500

As the Senior (by title) Enlisted Member of the Platoon, I’d think (and hope) your 1SG would be a great resource. My guess is the 1SG had reasons for allowing you to be placed over a higher ranking NCO and would have more wisdom than your Platoon Leader. I say this as a former SSG and LT Platoon Leader.

Response by SSG Michael Doolittle made Dec 30 at 2019 2:24 AM

SSG Michael Doolittle — Mon, 30 Dec 2019 02:24:07 -0500

That would never happen, the E-6 would have been removed from the platoon.... That would not ever happen

Response by MSG John Hill made Jan 1 at 2020 6:55 PM

MSG John Hill — Wed, 01 Jan 2020 18:55:42 -0500

I find this funny in the aspect insofar as I a E-4 Corporal back in the day of E-7 Specialist's, I didn't even get an NCOER yet, but I outranked them by position, not rank, and if they pissed my off with vaginitis I wouldn't hesitate to lock their heels...

Response by SFC George “Bones” Small made Jan 12 at 2020 11:57 AM

SFC George “Bones” Small — Sun, 12 Jan 2020 11:57:37 -0500

He is an E-6, regardless of his MOS background, and he should of been made the acting platoon sergeant instead of you as an E-5 just because your MOS is the same the Platoon Sergeant position calls for, at least until the position is filled in accordance to regulation by your branch personnel office, or the local administration office handling troop assignments within your command. Only when the E-6 is proven to not be able to perform the duty position, and with backed by repeated counseling to document such inadequacy, should he be removed for someone else to perform the duty.

A lower rank never outranks a higher rank, and a leadership position only gives the designated most senior NCO control of his own unit members and operations. This is why NCOs work together to coordinate supporting each other in joint mission operations. A Detachment having a Detachment Sergeant that’s an E-6 or E-7 being collocated with a Company having an E-8 First Sergeant will not fall under the supervision and management of the other unit’s E-8 at any time unless the detachment is attached to the company on stated written orders for command and control. The two units work together through mutual understandings individually hashed out and agreed upon by both commanders and senior NCOs.

Response by SP5 Elbert Eller made Jan 19 at 2020 6:26 PM

SP5 Elbert Eller — Sun, 19 Jan 2020 18:26:01 -0500

I was SP5. I was very good at my job as evidenced by EER’s and promotion speed. I could not have made it as Sgt. Did not have leadership potential. Specialists ranks should not have been done away with.

Response by MSG Pat SingR made Jan 21 at 2020 2:03 PM

MSG Pat SingR — Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:03:13 -0500

Talk to your chain

Response by SSG Bob Teachout made Feb 1 at 2020 11:29 PM

SSG Bob Teachout — Sat, 01 Feb 2020 23:29:08 -0500

First if the Chain of command felt he could not fullfill his role - they should have demoted him.
Second - they should have put him into another platoon - seems like the Chain of command is just ineffective as this SSG. By rank - yes, he outranks you - but by position you are in charge. I would not normally "pull rank" on him - but have an understanding that if preforms his duty in a sat matter -I would leave him alone for the most part. In addition, I would have him as asst plt sgt- thus he would fall to the back of the platoon for formation - If anything - this will be quite a learning experience for you - good luck as you continue in your career.

Response by SPC Steven Nihipali made Feb 3 at 2020 11:50 AM

SPC Steven Nihipali — Mon, 03 Feb 2020 11:50:48 -0500

Should go make a patch saying, "shitbagincharge"

Response by SGM Omer Dalton made Jul 13 at 2020 2:01 PM

SGM Omer Dalton — Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:01:52 -0400

Who in their right mind put you in this situation? The E6 should have been removed from the unit. By regulation you can’t command an E6 with a DOR higher than you. What type of unit are you in; active; reserve; guard? This is a chain of command issue to be resolved - use it.