Rank vs. Position...

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Aug 2014 13:15:19 -0400

Anyone else dealt with this dilemma? I was appointed Deputy Director as an O-3, now I'm an O-4, but I have O-5s who are technically BELOW me within chain of command. It's quite the catch-22. It's difficult to function in your position that is above those who outrank you. How do you operate as a supposed senior to those who have higher rank than you?

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2014 7:40 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Aug 2014 19:40:21 -0400

In short you can catch more flys with honey than with vinegar. Make the Decisions you need to make, if you have to come to them to help make a decision, best to heed their advice. Show them the respect they deserve, but carry yourself in a manner that demands the respect you've earned.

Other than that, don't treat them like a tool or try and micro manage them. IF it comes to it (and I'd hope it wouldn't) Get a mediator to help hash it out. Perferably one that doesn't have an intrest in the issue.

Other than that I'd need details that I'm not privi to.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2014 10:36 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Aug 2014 22:36:46 -0400

In the 1995 movie "Heat," Al Pacino's character sums it up nicely when a hot-headed superior tries to get his people to move in on some burglars who've given up on the job and Al's trying to bust them for more:

"That's exactly what they're gonna do, they're gonna walk. This is my operation, I have tactical command that supercedes your rank, they will walk away and you will let them..."

Realistically it's the same scenario, only not in front of anyone. You do your job without flaunting your position. If the superior below you gets huffy you pull them aside discreetly and offer to help them understand the problem and explain the situation. If they're not satisfied with your discussion, you direct them to YOUR superior who (presumably) is senior to them. If they're senior, they'll handle it. If they're junior, well....

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Sep 8 at 2014 10:09 AM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 10:09:42 -0400

I assume your organizational structure dictates the "reporting chain" and, as such, I assume the 0-5s are not really subordinate to you, as the Deputy Director, but to your boss, the Director. While, in the performance of your duties, you work with them, on behalf of your boss, you are probably not actually above them in the chain of command.

Regardless, the arrangement you find yourself in should not be an issue, if all parties work together to get the mission accomplished. The only time it should be an issue is if you attempt to present yourself as their senior or if they refuse to acknowledge your duty responsibilities. If there is a problem, a few well-placed words from your boss should alleviate that.

I found myself in that situation a few times and, for the most part, all worked out OK. It really depends on the affected parties being more concerned about getting the job done than rank or position.

As the Military Police brigade commander in Korea, I was also the 8th Army Provost Marshal, as well as the US Forces Korea (USFK) Provost Marshal. Brigade commanders in the active Army are Colonels (0-6), whereas, brigade commanders in the Reserve Components are Brigadier Generals (0-7). It was not at all unusual, when we had a major exercise that involved Reserve Components, for me to have one of more BGs (fellow MP brigade commanders) report to me as the 8th Army and/or USFK Provost Marshal. Most had no issue with it, although there were a couple of instances where I had to get my boss, a 3-star, involved.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Sep 8 at 2014 1:03 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 13:03:56 -0400

It the same dilemma that an HHC commander has. He is in command of the company that the BN/BDE commander and primary staff are assigned, yet they all outrank him. I think the key is determining exactly what your authority covers and stick to it. Obviously you cannot rate those individuals, but if you are supervising those O-5's, ensure you are meeting with their rater regularly for feedback.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Sep 8 at 2014 1:32 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 13:32:47 -0400

I have dealt with this several times in my career having worked directly for my Commander in positions where my positional authority superseded someone else's rank.

The most common of these type of things come with IG/Inspection Programs, Unit Deployment Programs, etc. As CPO Nemmers pointed out, don't argue with them, if they get their knickers in a knot, attempt to politely explain that you are asking for this on behalf of XYZ as their agent. If that doesn't work, you can have your (their) boss make the appropriate adjustment.

The key it to remind them that while you might be asking/tasking it is on behalf of your mutual boss.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Sep 8 at 2014 4:20 PM

SGT Richard H. — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 16:20:52 -0400

Diplomatically.....

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2014 6:08 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 18:08:34 -0400

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member - First, good luck in that position and secondly, my brother told me how his position put him over with people of higher rank. He sucked it up and paid close attention to how he put things. He was an Army Medic.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 8 at 2014 7:12 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 19:12:14 -0400

As a retired service member, I can offer a possible solution to your dilemma. Again, I am RETIRED.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAmJ4aWXEHc

Eric Cartman - Respect my Authoritah

just a short quick video

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2014 7:25 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 19:25:46 -0400

I spent 2 1/2 yrs as an HQs Co. 1SG as an E7 with 3 E8s on the battalion staff. Even though I was their 1SG, there were not technically underneath me as they all worked for a Staff Officer who was equal or higher rank then the Co. Cdr. However, for organizational missions, training, I was in charge. There were no issues as we all knew our rolls. If was a unit affair, formations, training, ranges, etc they fell in and supported.

I would think that in your position, it would be pretty much the same, they are not below you, however they are subordinate to your boss! If all understand their roll and work toward mission accomplishment, shouldn't be any problems. However if there are, take it to your boss (their boss) and let him handle it! I would think that neither you nor the O-5s would want him to feel he could not depend on all of you to focus on the mission and duty first.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2014 7:58 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Sep 2014 19:58:37 -0400

Offer to share a bottle of scotch... everything should be smooth sailing after that...

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Sep 9 at 2014 1:44 AM

Cpl Christopher Bishop — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 01:44:22 -0400

I'm not sure what's different among Officers, but I believe if for example n E4 or E5 is "appointed" to say a Platoon Sergeant billet, the individual is suddenly "treated like a Gunny". I'm sure this doesn't happen often. That said, if a higher ranking individual is one of the Squad/Section Leaders right under this PltSgt billet, and "the taller brass" had a reason to move you up over them, then perhaps that senior person in a junior position must have "screwed sumtin up? at some point. I dont think its enough that the person appointed higher position is necessairily "stellar". Perhaps both conditions have to be met.

Or perhaps its just a "known belief" that the senior rank, lower position person, had already been determined to NOT likely make the "latching onto retirement rank" and will be sent home relatively soon.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2014 12:37 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Dec 2014 00:37:17 -0500

I read one poster mention that if you do not rate them, you're not over them, but there is also a little thing known as "positional authority". I have seen a couple of instances where an enlisted man (senior NCO) was the lead for a particular detail or project and had a junior officer on the team. The officer was NOT the one running the show, but there was NO WAY that the NCO was going to rate that officer...

I guess in the end, I'll just say good luck and remember your tact and bearing...

Response by PO2 Ron Gunsolus made Sep 24 at 2017 7:11 PM

PO2 Ron Gunsolus — Sun, 24 Sep 2017 19:11:03 -0400

I was in a similar position as an E5 with an E6... positional authority... I operated with the respect his rank deserved, and he operated under the authority my position deserved... neither of us were egomaniacs and both were team players... we got along swimmingly :)

Response by SSgt Gerald Davis Jr made Aug 20 at 2018 4:56 PM

SSgt Gerald Davis Jr — Mon, 20 Aug 2018 16:56:51 -0400

As a former active duty Marine for 9 years I mentioned to the 1st Sgt that we had a Co Gunny to handle formations and such. I was a SSG but he said we have a "firld first" you're him. There were 3 or 4 SFC's but they ubderstood that I represented the 1st SGT. Never had any problems.

Response by COL William Oseles made Aug 20 at 2018 5:27 PM

COL William Oseles — Mon, 20 Aug 2018 17:27:41 -0400

I sat in a conference when an AF BG introduced himself as I am GEN so-and-so and I work for Capitan so-and-so pointing to the young man sitting next to him. The GOOD ones senior to you understand that your position makes you the Boss, as long as you treat them with the respect due their rank.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made May 12 at 2019 6:17 PM

Cpl Rc Layne — Sun, 12 May 2019 18:17:22 -0400

With a bit of tact and common sense.

Response by PO2 Ron Gunsolus made May 12 at 2019 6:18 PM

PO2 Ron Gunsolus — Sun, 12 May 2019 18:18:21 -0400

Positional authority... I was a lowly E5, and had sevral E6's under my position... still gave them the respect their rank entitled, never lorded it over them, and they had no problem at all with it... was a lesson for all of us in unit cohesion and military discipline.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2019 7:17 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 May 2019 19:17:41 -0400

I think the phrase to not confuse your rank with my position comes into play

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2019 10:58 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 May 2019 22:58:17 -0400

Maybe it’s an officer thing, BUT your rank doesn’t make you special. You woke up this morning as a (wo)man not a Major or LTC, and when you take the uniform at night you are still a (wo)man. So that’s how you should talk to someone. (Wo)man to (wo)man.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 4 at 2020 4:14 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Jul 2020 16:14:14 -0400

While I can't speak from the Officer side, I am a team leader as an E-2 (Yes, I messed up and was demoted), and I have had SGTs and CPLs in my team. I frequently act as the squad leader as well, and in our organization, we normally operate as a squad sized detachment, meaning as a squad leader, platoon leaders and platoon sergeants of adjacent units are many times at the peer level. My advice is to be proficient to the point that no one will question your abilities in your position. If the officers under you aren't able to see more than rank, they need to reevaluate organizational priorities and substitute mission success for the Army BS. Luckily, I'm in an organizational culture that focuses on tactical and technical proficiency versus Army formalities like I know most of the conventional regular component does. I wish the rest of the Army would adopt our culture.