Respect began when the Army began

2014-08-18T12:23:56-04:00

As leaders, we should automatically respect our subordinates at all times. There is a stark difference between leadership and dictatorship. As soon as the leaders in the military figure this out, they will notice a peak in the retention rate of their Soldiers.

I have communicated with over 300 Soldiers who are eligible to extend their enlistment contract within the past few months and was shocked to hear the responses from some of them. One Soldier mentioned, “I would remain in the military but cannot understand why I’m getting cursed out when asked to do something. I am a grown man!” I asked this same Soldier if he’d discuss with his leaders the disrespect he feels and he said that he had spoken with them about it. My final question to him was, “So what did they say?” He replied, “They said that I am a Soldier and if I can’t handle it, get out!”

As a leader myself, I apologized to this Soldier and informed him that some leaders are called leaders because of their position or title, not because of their leadership. I then annotated in the retention book that he was not going to extend his contract but instead, leave the military because of the disrespect from his leadership.

Must a Soldier be a Chaplain to get respected? Can a Soldier who informs his or her chain of command that the speaking of profanity is against their religion be provided the same respect that a chaplain receives? Should fellow Soldiers respect these Soldiers? To me, the answer is quite simple. We should.

I am one of these Soldiers. I am a non-paid minister at a local church. The Soldiers who are aware of this duty respect the fact I am a Soldier and a minister. I've expressed to others that I would like for them to be themselves while in my presence, as I would perceive unrealism if they would change their talk, speech, or attitude just because I was standing around in the vicinity. Some disagreed but others said okay and would use profanity as if I’m not around. It didn’t then and doesn’t bother me a bit. However, there might be Soldiers that are affected by vulgar and demeaning language and I believe this should be respected.

If smoking a cigarette around a non-smoker is a sign of disrespect, I believe using profanity around a non-profanity speaker falls within the same guidelines if the Soldier speaks up. Leaders must understand that profanity can be damning to a lot of people. The “F” word has been known to cause havoc, begin fights, and unfortunately result in someone being killed. To tell a Soldier to deal with the disrespect because you're a Soldier is unacceptable.

This is not a new Army. Respect began when the Army began.

Response by PO1 Terry Irwin made Aug 18 at 2014 5:44 PM

2014-08-18T17:44:17-04:00

I was in the US Navy for 12 years. I do agree with your comments on leadership. The Lord Jesus bless you as you minister to others.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2014 8:23 PM

2014-08-18T20:23:02-04:00

Sorry but I have to agree,man up or get out. I don't have the time to treat every soldier as a their own pretty, pretty snow flake.

The law of the land states that language does not constitute harassment. If the soldier feels they need to seek a religious accommodation then they can appeal to the chain of command.

If we accommodate you and your beliefs then we have to do so for everybody, to include FSM believers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2014 1:22 PM

2014-08-20T13:22:49-04:00

MSG Private RallyPoint Member,

This is certainly a unique take on cursing, religion, and respect.

While I will not curse around those who make it known their objections to that type of language, two scenarios come to mind; 1. the soldier doesn't voice their preference, and 2. or the soldier does something so incredibly stupid I am forced to swear at them (gross incompetence, safety issues, etc). In the second case my regard for a soldiers' preference goes down the toilet because mission and soldier/equipment safety take priority over hurt feelings.

I also leave religion out of the work place. There is only mission accomplishment; feel free to use whatever higher power you need to get it done, just get it done. It's none of my business and should have no impact on the working environment.

This is a gem. “I would remain in the military but cannot understand why I’m getting cursed out when asked to do something. I am a grown man!” is a telling quote all by itself. I have yet to meet an NCO (other than a DS) who prefers to yell and curse over simply stating their guidance and giving direction. I am the same way. I would much rather not spend my days yelling and cursing. This one statement leads me to believe that the soldier in question might have problems accomplishing his assigned duties with any sort of proficiency, and the result is a butt chewing. Whether cursed at or not, I bet he would say the same thing. I have no doubt he is a grown man, and God bless for his choice to serve, but he is a grown man who must not be very good at his job.

The Army is predicated on respect. I start every encounter respecting each new person I meet. They either earn more respect or lose it based on action, proficiency, and effort. You can be a total rag-bag soldier, and you've got my respect as long as you keep trying to do right. But there's no way I'm going to compromise my integrity by "faking the funk" to avoid hurt feelings. One of the most telling attributes in our profession is the ability to brush off a butt-chewing, make the needed correction, and drive on. If a soldier cannot do so when given a simple assigned task, that soldier is sure to fail in combat.

Response by SGT Jason Scholte made Aug 21 at 2014 1:51 PM

2014-08-21T13:51:23-04:00

Sure, using derogatory statements and cursing is not going to be an effective communication method. That said, the Army is built for a purpose, to kill an enemy during War, this means by default it will attract men and women who hold varying systems of belief. These beliefs differ, and as a result you get friction.

Leadership is surely a two-way street, and it does include mutual respect. So, if a soldier advises his superior that he/she does not like to be cursed at then that superior has a choice to make, either show mutual respect or ignore the request.

The reality of military service is such that many (not all) use a certain aggressive communication style, it gets built-in and as a result f-bombs and various other expletives are used in-place of more civilized forms.

My advice is this, for anyone truly wanting to be a senior Leader in today's military they should learn to adjust their communication style to reflect the more professional nature of today's military. An intelligent person usually senses when others' in their presence are agreeable to gutter-speak.

Frankly, I curse, but not around most people as I know how offensive most people find it.

Last, this will always be an issue, many individuals are emotionally sensitive to words, while this is not good for them it does not obviate the fact that a good leader should be aware of their own level of professionalism at all times.

It seems to me that any Soldier who "wants" to stay in the military and serve will find a way to adjust and do so. Any Soldier who "wants" to find an excuse to leave will do the same.

At the end of the day I simply do not have sympathy for anyone who cannot stand-up for themselves. I had my own woodshed event as a Private when I told my NCO to f-off, this was back in the day of course. It did however quickly teach me who I could and could not tell off...

Response by SPC James Patton made Aug 24 at 2014 6:13 PM

2014-08-24T18:13:06-04:00

I agree. I myself left the Army in 1993 because of the way certain higher ranked personal treated those under their charge (myself included). Eventhough i loved the Army and where i was stationed, I couldn't stand the thougt of going through the abuse any more. I ended up missing the Army life greatly and went back in into the Army NG after 9/11. Thats when i learned not all leaders are cruel. I the deployed to Iraq for OIF III. Spent a total of 8 yrs serving our great country before injuries forced me back out. I would still serve if i could. Long story short, don't let bad the leaders push you out, do your best and one day you can lead by example.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Aug 25 at 2014 1:38 AM

2014-08-25T01:38:54-04:00

All I know, is that if someone can't handle some profanity in the military, then Lord help them when it comes time to fix bayonets. Do I curse, No (nowadays). Will I quit a job because I get cursed out? No. Do I know how to wear my big boy pants and exercise my right to be heard and solve such miniscule problems as profanity, albeit toxic leadership involved? Yes. Aren't we also problem solvers in the military? Can a simple message be passed along to the C of C or the Chaplain to determine if this leader needs a psych eval for abusing his authority? Is it natural to curse your hard working troops up and down, or is this poor soldier in need of a serious reality check? I find it INCREDIBLY unprofessional to curse. I'm sharpening my admin bayonet (Skilcraft) and getting busy counseling before I'd let some troop have power over me by getting me pissed to the point of profanity.

Response by Cpl Peter Martuneac made Aug 25 at 2014 1:00 PM

2014-08-25T13:00:40-04:00

I understand that in order to get respect, you have to give respect, but this is the military, not a desk job. It IS, for the most part, a dictatorship, and that's the only way it can work effectively. So feel free to disagree with me, but I approve of the response to the soldier being "Sack up and deal with it".

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2014 1:20 PM

2014-08-25T13:20:32-04:00

I can and do have all the respect in the world for any person's faith regardless of how they choose to worship. However, this has nothing to do with the use of profanity. Some may choose to try to use their faith as a means to state their dislike for profanity. I'm not buying it. Did I use profanity as a Platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant...Hell YES! Did I ever bring a Soldier in for counseling/mentoring and verbally abuse them by cussing them out....NO! Did I ever use profanity when addressing some damn serious issues, YES. Some of you may not beleive this, however, I have seen more positive response and reacation by Soldiers and NCOs when a point has been made with profanity. More often then not, the added profanity brought out the seriousness or the importance of the issues.....and the Soldiers GOT IT. They were not intimadated, threatened, and here is that word again....feel DISREPECTED! As a young Soldier and NCO, I never felt disrepected when profanity was used in my presense or directed at me. Some of the Best Leaders I've ever served with both Officers and NCOs used profanity......as an effective tool in their leadership toolbox. I also knew what is called 'toxic leaders' who verbally abused Soldiers with profanity. We all know the difference. If one chooses to not use profanity, that's great. If one chooses to use profanity, that's his/her choice as well! We all know how it's delievered when used and the impact its intended to make. Instead of making it about "your hurt feelings" make it about the point trying to be made. Once again the Army has taken the route of one rule fits all and often those who make the rules are the 1st ones to violate them. We've seen it a hundred times.
I learned early in my career, that if the Platoon Sergeant, First Sergeant , Commander, or Command Sergeant Major was cussing, it wasn't to step on my toes or hurt my precious feelings, it was because it was important to them and they wanted us to know it needed to damn important to us too. As expressed in earlier responses, we all know the difference between profanity that's abusive and when it's effective as hell. Respond and deal with both as they should be! One may require you to seek out your First Sergeant, EO or IG....the other may require you to move the hell out smartly! Most remembered words I recall from my days (6 plus years) in the 11th ACR, "Find the Bastards and Pile on!" We knew what it meant and if anyone was offended, they were in the wrong outfit.

Response by SFC Jeff L. made Aug 25 at 2014 3:02 PM

2014-08-25T15:02:20-04:00

The scenario seems based on the premise that a person (soldier or otherwise) has a right to NOT be offended. The premise is, in itself, contrary to our 1st Amendment rights. We have a right to speak as we wish, say what we wish, etc. Whether or not that speech is relevant, offensive, professional, or not we have the right to it. I choose not to curse. I believe that cursing is the fallback for a small vocabulary, or a small imagination. A person should be able to express a preference that others refrain from cursing in their presence. The offending speaker should also be mature and aware enough to alter his/her speech. Would it be enough for me to terminate my employment? Or theirs? No, it just tells me who I'm dealing with.

Beyond that I think that we, as a society, need to work past this whole idea that "I have a right not to be offended." That's why we have all this PC and sensitivity training. Case in point: The private business owner in New England who was complained to by a muslim woman because the business was advertising "bacon". The word bacon was deemed offensive, and we subsequently removed from the signage. Absurd.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Aug 25 at 2014 4:13 PM

2014-08-25T16:13:03-04:00

To paraphrase Scripture, it is not what goes in to you that makes you unclean, it is what comes out of you.

In other words, you can hear all kinds of filth and profanity, but if it washes off like water over a duck's back, doesn't take root in your heart, and doesn't become part of your behavior, it is not harming you.

Response by PV2 Charles Lagois made Aug 25 at 2014 5:37 PM

2014-08-25T17:37:19-04:00

Their are no athiest in foxholes.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2014 8:20 PM

2014-08-25T20:20:16-04:00

While I was on active duty, one of our coworkers who happened to be in a very religious category (church several times a week, zero cursing, no drinking, no smoking, etc.) never complained about our cursing. Out of respect to him we never took the Lords name in vain, but the common cursing vernacular did not offend him. In fact he understood and accepted it as our right to freedom of speech.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2014 9:46 PM

2014-08-25T21:46:54-04:00

BLUF: Being offended is a personal choice anyone can make. If I'm your First Sergeant and I'm on your ass because you did something you knew better, made that dumbass decision or what ever and you choose to be offended rather than listen to what I'm telling you. You've missed the intent and the reason behind me chewing your ass! Get over it, move out smartly, don't make the same mistake again....and we'll never have this conversation again. GUESS WHAT: 2 minutes after you're outta my sight...I've moved on to the next issue! I don't hold it against you, I won't belittle you in front of others about it later on, it's over. NOW if you do that same stupid crap again...I'M the one Offended, because your dumbass chose not to listen to me and didn't hear a word of advise I gave you the 1st time. Now I know this isn't politcally correct, but guess what, being politically correct and sensitive to your feelings may not be what you need to hear. My advise may save your life one day or the life of another Soldier. Get over it! If you feel this had anything to do with your religion. Go and pray it don't happen again because I'll be praying for you that it better NOT.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2014 11:26 PM

2014-08-25T23:26:54-04:00

I agree. I believe that folks should be mindful of their surroundings. I sure am guilty of forgetting that sometimes.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Aug 26 at 2014 6:49 AM

2014-08-26T06:49:08-04:00

I'm not really certain what this topic has to do with religion. I know of no theological prohibition against profanity. There is, however, a military prohibition against profanity. Indecent language is a specific subarticle of article 134, aptly titled indecent language.

This is a policy issue, and an enforcement issue, not a religious one.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2014 9:19 AM

2014-08-26T09:19:01-04:00

MSG,
Thanks for the post. IMO cursing is not a big issue and people need to soldier up. I have always had the image that the Army and Marines are "tough" due to movies like Full Metal Jacket and just the film industry in general. If the soldiers joining think the Army is the Boy scouts, they are dreaming. We are all adults and if you do not like something, speak up. Now if those curse words are being used to belittle a person, then that is when the Service Member should let the other person know what they are doing is inappropriate. I personally believe with the millions of Power Points videos, classes and just advertisement in general we are given annually, that if someone tells you what you are doing is inappropriate, that should scare the crap out of you. These days even if you are not found guilty for things like EO, IG, SHARP, it stays in your record and your career is over. We just need to use common sense and be mindful what we are saying. I would prefer a middle Army. By that I mean not as soft as we are becoming, but not as hard as the Army was in the 70s. I would say find the middle ground.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2014 10:32 PM

2014-08-26T22:32:31-04:00

It's not a leaders job to coddle an individual. If you're someone that needs constant coddling everytime someone gets loud because you screwed up, you're in the wrong line of work. Quit being a spoiled brat, grow up, and grow some thicker skin or get out and run back to your mommy and your my little ponies...

Response by CW2 Jonathan Kantor made Aug 27 at 2014 1:41 AM

2014-08-27T01:41:05-04:00

I cuss a lot... but if someone asks me to refrain, I make every effort to do so. I don't want to be offensive to people just because I sprinkle my speech with some 'bad words' every now and then.

Response by SSgt David Norcutt made Aug 27 at 2014 10:09 AM

2014-08-27T10:09:39-04:00

During my short 10 years in the military, okay Air Force, I remember three leaders who did not use swear words or vulgarity. I also remember several others that cussed that were great leaders as well and others who cussed or didn't cuss that were worthless leaders. But concerning the three I mentioned, I would consider all three extremely effective leaders and during my service probably the most influential. One of these leaders was an E-5 Training Instructor I had in basic. He never swore and very rarely raised his voice but I can tell you he was the "scariest" TI there. The other two were NCO's in my career field (Law Enforcement). These two were the best professionals I have worked for, both in the military and in the corporate world. They were very effective in communicating with subordinates, peers and with the "public" they policed. They led by example in every facet and I use them as an example to follow in my career today. None of these men were religious from what I knew, the were just professional plain and simple. I'm not going to say that I didn't learn or respect leaders who did cuss, I've learned from every good leader and even from some of the bad ones. But as I have climbed the corporate ladder from entry level to company executive I have found that being professional and using appropriate language has been the most successful. I have cussed, cussed a lot, however it has been my personal experience that professionalism wins out over the long run.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2014 12:19 AM

2014-08-29T00:19:13-04:00

My first rule of being an NCO is that "Nobody beats on my people but me." It is my job to push them, correct them train them challenge them and educate them. The more potential I see in them the more likely they are to be pushed. Watching a SPC develop from a skilled soldier to a leader with initiative and problem solving is probably the greatest joy I have ever experienced.

The second part of that rule is that I have to get them to be a team. The easiest way to do this is stress. We have to overcome obstacles and do more than we thought we could. So not only do I need to do my job with excellence, I need to push the team and sometimes that can be a bit rough.

I have been doing this for a day or two and have a whole ruck sack full of tools to get soldiers to perform. I love my job and do not look forward to giving it up and enter management.

So this thread is about respect. The assumption that the MSG makes in the opening comment is that this soldier has the facts of the situation. By taking this soldier's view as fact it implies that the no less than three layers of the chain of command have failed. That my 1SG is unaware of what we I am doing, that he doesn't know my strengths and weaknesses. The MSG assumes that that both my squad leader, platoon sergeant and platoon leader are unaware of what is happening under their command.

There are dozens of checks on behavior that exist that within a company. Even the ability for a company commander to become abusive and 'toxic' is limited due to the checks on behavior. By and large the system works, sometimes it takes time but I have never seen it fully fail. Senior leaders have less checks on behavior and that is where we see the toxic leadership causing issues.

Leadership is an amazingly complex job as we have to deal with a variety of people and develop both compliance with orders under stress and complex problem solving. We have to build both immediate execution of orders and moral operators who resist committing the horrors that have been commonplace in previous wars.

Above all I remember that my job, and the job every Sergeant is to hear the words "Sergeant, take three men across that road and draw fire." And when I say "Yes, Sir!" my three men follow me across the road. Evidence supports my success.

So why have I gnawed on this thread like a stray dog with a fresh knuckle bone? Because I have a hard job and the last thing I need is some senior EM from outside my chain of command coming into my truck and making it harder. My rater, senior rater and reviewer already have that job. Most importantly my subordinates have to respect me enough to get up and follow me across that road.

Respect is about what you do, the relationships you build and the people you develop. Outside of the family you get salutes and 'Yes sergeant, No sergeant" and all the forms of respect. Inside the family you get respect, and sometimes it comes in the form of having an ass cheek removed via loud and creative cussing.

I feel sorry for soldiers who never get to experience that family. The professional environment has its place, but it is but a pale shadow of that rough, abrasive, abusive, loving and unforgettable experience.

I was once told by a chaplain that "Sometimes you just have to trust in god." I told him I trust my squad and 556.

Response by SP5 Tom Carlson made Aug 29 at 2014 11:53 AM

2014-08-29T11:53:21-04:00

If they start cursing at me, I stop listening served me well for the most part, got in a few discussions with company comanders because of it. but ucmj charges or hearings,, and lost a couple of jobs because of it... and was guilty of it when a very young NCO... I learned fast over a platoon of crewchiefs If I wanted something done,,, 1. Tell what needs to be done .2.. ask if they had questions... 3... and then let them decide how to get it done and be there to be sure they get What they need to get them job done....

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2014 9:47 AM

2014-08-30T09:47:44-04:00

MSG,

I have seen it both ways, leaders verbally abusing their subordinates and leaders using increased levels of language to get things done and to keep people safe. Me personally, I have thick skin so when I see it a say something regardless if I'm gonna catch something too. A good leader can tell when a soldier is to that point when what your saying is causing more harm than education.

It's not about people being snowflakes or ponies or whatever. It's about respectful communicating where the desired intent is understood by the intended audience.

Most people that defend their abusive language in my experience have problems communicating. If you are not speaking to a soldier in a way that gets your desired outcome than way are you doing it? If the only reason is it makes you fill more comfortable or that is how it was done to you, then it is time for some retraining. Having boots and a weapon does not mean you have to be a jerk. I would rather mentor and teach in a way the soldier responded to so when I needed them to use those skills in combat it's there. Be professional and hold them to an unwavering standard, too easy.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2014 6:53 PM

2014-08-30T18:53:06-04:00

Remove the word "Religion" from the title and replace with the word "RESPECT"

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2014 10:15 PM

2014-08-30T22:15:17-04:00

MSG Miles:

John 15:18 "“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."

You and I both know the path is wide, the gate is narrow. Standing up for them because it is right is the way that are we called to do it. Profanity unfortunately is part of our culture, right wrong or indifferent. I am going to be perfectly honest that a well placed curse word has slipped at a very appropriate time. Besides, a trailer hitch to the shin causes a lot of pain.

As temporary as that is, I am convinced that at one point or another, we will all come to a conclusion that there is a better way, no matter what it might be. Bottom line rests with the troop though: don t like it, address it with the individual. If the leader is worth his salt, he ll know to change his communication style in the future with that particular soldier. If he doesn't, then I am also convinced that it will show in some other aspect of an NCOER, FITREP, etc. Bound to happen due to projection or any other defense mechanism. Its human nature.

Response by PO1 Jeffrey Benkovic made Aug 31 at 2014 2:09 AM

2014-08-31T02:09:45-04:00

Which is why I rarely barked orders at those under me. When it was normal work, ie PMS I always asked them to take care of it. The response one gets from asking and dictating is night and day.

The only time I actually swore at them was when they did something utterly stupid, the profanity gave the message a harder hit and understanding the seriousness of what they did.

I've followed most of those that were under me when I was a leading petty officer and those that stayed in are either LPO's now or Chiefs and have mentioned that they built their leadership foundation on the way I ran the division, which I had built upon from my LPO when I was there. I took note of what worked and what didn't and knew how I wanted to be treated so treated those that were under me the same way which is like a human being and not just some minion.

The core principle for my leadership is and has always been take care of your people and they will take care of you.

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2014 2:47 PM

2014-09-01T14:47:59-04:00

I actually greatly appreciate this idea. I am a chaplain candidate presently, so I'm in that class of Soldiers that, traditionally, other Soldiers are less likely to swear around. But other members of my church don't swear, either, as a rule.

Aside from that, it is much more professional not to swear. Just as we have a clean haircut and shave, keep our uniforms in good condition, and render proper courtesies to others, profanity has a very real impact on our professionalism and our professional appearance.

Can I 'deal' with profanity? Sure. I've had more than enough exposure to know that I can 'deal' with it. But it still bothers me a little, deep down. I think your comparison to cigarette smoke is apt—I believe profanity has an analogous, harmful effect on me as well, so when appropriate I try to excuse myself from situations where profanity is particularly excessive.

But I could see this being a reason why some very capable Soldiers may choose not to continue with our organization. It's at least enough to think twice about instead of responding with the ever-inspiring "IT'S THE ARMY, DEAL WITH IT!" Adapting to others' needs is not always a weakness, sometimes it's the best and the smartest thing you can do.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Sep 1 at 2014 3:05 PM

2014-09-01T15:05:51-04:00

I have heard this from many people, drill sergeants included: "Give your heart and soul to God because your ass belongs to me for the next 13 weeks (at least). After my 13 weeks your ass belongs to the Army."

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Sep 1 at 2014 10:02 PM

2014-09-01T22:02:11-04:00

As an NCO, I tried my best to observe the feelings of what the soldiers were. I tried not to yell and curse, but, there are times when things are not getting done, where it is necessary to raise your voice, yelling was always the last resort, and cursing only worked if it was something that was responded to, to get the mission accomplished. A Soldier not accomplishing, or shucking and jiving through the mission, is disrespecting that leader leading the mission. And, therefore, does not deserve the respect reciprocated.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 12:31 AM

2014-09-02T00:31:27-04:00

Sir, I agree with you 100 percent.The only problem is that we, as military members, tend to have potty mouths. If people dont approve of cussing or other small problems that are common in the work area, then it should be mentioned before you start working in that area to help alleviate any future problems that might be had between them and the rest of the work force. Respect goes a long way in the military and it is a two way street. We are professionals and we should respect each other's opinions, beliefs, and values.

Response by SSgt Donnie West made Sep 2 at 2014 12:41 AM

2014-09-02T00:41:16-04:00

This is for everyone; and my take, if you are using cursing as a part of your everyday speaking then I can tell you; you wont last in the civilian world. I have heard a lot of cursing in my days of the marines and it is not affective in getting someone to do something. if you are an grown man or women, no one should have to curs at you to do the right thing. and people this may sound like it is a good thing to do while in uniform today. but what happens when you have to at some point hang your uniform up and make that great transition over to civilian life. some people that I have ran into are having problems finding work today because of their mouth. we are living in an super sensitive world and if you go onto a job and use words from the military talking to civilians of younger age and older who do not understand you; you wont be working long. all I am saying is be careful of how you use your words.

Response by MSgt Peter Castine made Sep 2 at 2014 6:25 AM

2014-09-02T06:25:31-04:00

Well spoken!! Respect goes a long ways.

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Sep 2 at 2014 11:29 AM

2014-09-02T11:29:10-04:00

I cursed a lot in the Army, just never at the soldiers.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2014 2:55 PM

2014-09-02T14:55:45-04:00

That is an interesting outlook MSG Private RallyPoint Member. While I do believe that it is your right to curse or not, many forget that there is a time and place. If your "leadership style" is screaming and cursing, then do what you do best; however, I do think that we should be mindful of what others beliefs are. If I have a Marine who asks me to not curse in front of him or her, I try my hardest to not. Yes, I may slip, but at least I am attempting to give that Marine the same respect as an individual that I expect of them. Why should we not value our Marines (insert your service here) beliefs? Respect should go up and down the chain, and everyone should at least attempt to respect the beliefs of your fellow Marines.

Response by SSG Stephanie Mitchell made Sep 2 at 2014 3:13 PM

2014-09-02T15:13:48-04:00

Bottom line is respect. Profanity does not promote respect. It is not professional. I've been in a number of units lots of females at all levels to only female in the section, only 1-3 females in a Platoon, 1 of 4 in a company to were I have been the only female in the HHB, in a FA command. You have to understand the environment. "This is Bull$#!%" and "You are Bull$#!%" are two different things. No problem with the first but issues with the latter. Religion has nothing to do with it. I think we all use profanity from time to to time. The problem arise when you are not able to articulate yourself without it.

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Sep 2 at 2014 10:19 PM

2014-09-02T22:19:35-04:00

Many view foul language as a sign of ignorance. My experience suggests that when used correctly, it can leave a lasting impression. This is important because any lesson that sticks with you is a lesson learned. I don't remember one calm conversation that involved a leader explaining sweetly what I did wrong. I do, however, remember every time that I've been punched in the face. An effective use of colorful language lies somewhere in the middle.

I personally do my best to leave the four letter variety out of my pattern of speech, but I work hard to weave my verbal tapestry in such a way that it leaves a stamp on the lives of my Soldiers. Such a stamp helps them to retrieve my (hopefully) sage advice when necessary in life.

I remember my drill instructors using some such phrases, that are still with me 18 years later. I have the upmost respect for them, and don't believe for one second they were ignorant or stupid.

Response by SCPO Larry Knight Sr. made Sep 3 at 2014 7:08 PM

2014-09-03T19:08:10-04:00

Basic training requires a particular method of Leadership to build and tear down the enlistee, through out the training cycle this promotes team building and survival afterwards. We as their leaders are tasked with an insurmountable responsibility, to these young people and profanities isn't a set standard we promulgate as the norm! When you get out of basic things become a little less hectic, now you go on to continue further training and your leaders are not to exhibit dictator type behavior! That would blatantly be in violation of the UCMJ and code of conduct as a senior NCO, and taken to the command senior enlisted for resolution. Come on ladies /gentleman as leaders you set the standard by leading by example not through ignorance, if you've lost touch in how to be an effective leader step down and or retire!

Response by SSgt Donnie West made Sep 4 at 2014 1:20 AM

2014-09-04T01:20:49-04:00

People I stand on my last comment; I see some of you are still in uniform. all I am saying is; start preparing yourselves for the outside world. start going to trade shows, hiring events and ect. to interact with civilians and take note of how people speak and so on. if you do this more often, cursing will soon leave you in some way shape or form. no one says you have to stop overnight, but start practicing how to speak. check in your city and state for toast master events, this has help me out in a big way. just passing on some good information from a veteran to veterans and or about to be a veteran soon. just something to think about.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2014 1:39 PM

2014-09-06T13:39:37-04:00

Image is vital in your leadership role.
Aside from faith-based objections (not "feelings", as some might argue), the fact is that the image of a leader who is vulgar in speech and/or demeanor is not an intelligent one.
As a leader, the ability to articulate your anger into words, not vulgarity is an art form which requires time and practice (many "fast trackers" tend to miss out on this perfecting opportunity at each pay grade). The enlisted ranks are no longer primarily comprised of society's misfits. (Hence the phrase of the past, "unbecoming of an officer") Intelligent articulations and passion-driven decisions must be among the most prevalent marks of modern day leaders. Be passionate about your leadership role (not P-contests). Otherwise, the only passion conveyed to subordinates with your obscenities and vulgarities, even during a chew-out session will be passionate disloyalty.
••Excerpt from FM 7-22: "Officers and NCOs lead, train, motivate, and inspire their Soldiers. Only the best leadership can inspire Soldiers to cooperate to this extent."••

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Sep 8 at 2014 12:29 PM

2014-09-08T12:29:53-04:00

It is as simple as knowing your audience. Giving a range brief to my Battalion Commander requires a different speaking style than I'd use when I was out in the field on an exercise with my men. While I'd prefer not to curse at all, sometimes the situation definitely requires the use either as a motivator or a rebuke.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 8 at 2014 9:12 PM

2014-09-08T21:12:39-04:00

I could not agree more, MSG Miles. In "my" Army (1975-2006), respect was the bedrock upon which everything else was built. You nailed it in this post! Thank you!!

Response by SPC Christopher Buckalew made Sep 9 at 2014 6:51 PM

2014-09-09T18:51:11-04:00

Great article MSG Miles, you are correct in saying that the disrespect is now rampant in today's military. It's sad to see.

Response by SFC William "Bill" Moore made Sep 12 at 2014 8:43 AM

2014-09-12T08:43:59-04:00

I joined the Army in Oct 82. My first duty station was Ft Hood with the 1st Cav. I was an E-1 when I joined and a CPL 18 months latter (I was real good in the field!) and a squad leader. One afternoon in the motor pool, another platoon SGT (SFC) cornered one of my squad members and commenced to go nuts on him, for something I can't remember, but it was something I instructed him to do. I quickly intervened and the cussing shifted from my troop to the both of us. I told my guy to leave which inflamed the SFC, who up until then, I thought was a pretty good guy/leader. At that point I turned on the Squad Leader mantra and the discussion got lively. He became fully aware of the fact that I was not going to let anyone belittle or disrespect my troops. Then the unthinkable happened, he grabbed the front of my BDU blouse, I cold cocked him. Yep, my fledgling career was over! He stood back up and smiled, "You got balls, boy! I hope you continue to stand up for your Soldiers." Then he walked away. That was the first and only time I ever witnessed him go nuts on someone, and never received an explanation for it either. A month after the incident, he requested that I work for him as a Squad/team Leader on a mission we were assigned. I asked why and his response, "I want guys that give a shit about their team." that was all he would say.
I ABSOLUTELY do not advocate cold cocking a Senior NCO, or anyone for that matter, it was a different army with Vietnam veterans(him included) and we were not that touchy feely. But the key was taking up for and caring for your soldiers and giving respect. You may not agree with their lifestyle or what they do or do not believe, but by the short hairs, as a leader, you better protect and respect them, they joined the same as you.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Sep 12 at 2014 2:57 PM

2014-09-12T14:57:34-04:00

Respect is earned. While I would agree in part, I think we should not be disrespectful of soldiers, but it is still another story to say they are all deserving of respect. We are the military and there is a level of having to be an adult, and sometimes being an adult means taking criticism and improving and growing from it. If you spend all your time crying about how you were corrected, instead of using that energy correcting your errors, maybe we are better off without that soldier, especially when there are so many soldiers being cut that want to continue to serve.

Response by SFC Boots Attaway made Sep 14 at 2014 11:31 PM

2014-09-14T23:31:59-04:00

I NEVER told my soldiers to do something, instead I asked them to do it and often said please. I never had to EXPLAIN why they should do it and not someone else and feel that my soldiers and soldiers in other squads and platoons respected me more than NCOs that TOLD them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2014 6:25 AM

2014-09-15T06:25:39-04:00

89. Article 134—(Indecent language)
a. Text of statute. See paragraph 60.
b. Elements.
(1)
That the accused orally or in writing communicated to another person certain language;
(2)
That such language was indecent; and
(3)
That, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces. [Note: In appropriate cases add the following element after element (1): That the person to whom the language was communicated was a child under the age of 16.]
c. Explanation. “Indecent” language is that which is grossly offensive to modesty, decency, or propriety, or shocks the moral sense, because of its vulgar, filthy, or disgusting nature, or its tendency to incite lustful thought. Language is indecent if it tends reasonably to corrupt morals or incite libidinous thoughts . The language must violate community standards. See paragraph 45 if the communication was made in the physical presence of a child.
d. Lesser included offenses.
(1)
Article 117—provoking speeches
(2)
Article 80—attempts
e . Maximum punishment. Indecent or insulting language.
(1)
Communicated to any child under the age of 16 years. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
(2)
Other cases. Bad-conduct discharge; forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.

Response by CMSgt Adam Reading made Sep 15 at 2014 8:19 AM

2014-09-15T08:19:13-04:00

Respect is earned; so is disrespect. Let the individual define the rank he/she holds, not the stripes. There is a time and place for directive leadership style, and when necessary, an ass-chewing if earned. Praise in public, punish in private.

BLUF: Troops at any rank will respect a NCO/Sr. NCO/Officer who communicates with them, not at them. Initial training notwithstanding...

Response by SSG Jacob Wiley made Sep 15 at 2014 11:20 AM

2014-09-15T11:20:41-04:00

I'm 100% certain that those claiming profanity at work offends them also do not watch movies or listen to music with any profanity in them whatsoever...right?

Response by SP5 Tom Carlson made Sep 15 at 2014 1:24 PM

2014-09-15T13:24:35-04:00

I always think of Respect and Cursing as a direct reflection on my Parents and, Grade schoo; teachers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2014 2:00 PM

2014-09-15T14:00:27-04:00

I would say that today's military has developed a bad habit of recognizing someone's ability only after accomplishing feats and being recognized by higher echelon leadership above the Soldier's unit. An even bigger problem is that the expectation of the Soldier's ability to contribute is dependant upon their rank. I have seen the disrespect upon Soldiers of lower ranks despite their age. Today's military is different than 20 - 30 years ago. Separation of ability in case of education was very distinguishable between enlisted and officers. Not so much today. I have seen Sergeants with Master's persuing their Doctorate and certifications from previous civilian employments. The Army is employing these great assets and placing them but then sadly I think not being utilized as they should. From my perspective, I see the senior company grade to field grade officers being the most guilty of exposing their biases.

Response by SFC Nestor Nievesmoran made Sep 15 at 2014 4:27 PM

2014-09-15T16:27:42-04:00

There are moments for reward as there are moments for punishment with that in mind, respect goes a long way. First we need to understand what is respect. Respect is an Army value that is required for everyone to lived up too. it is treating others as we will like to be treated, it is what allows us to see the best on others... it is important to respect because it builds trust. I will have to disagree with some of the comments, respect is not asking please to accomplish a mission, there are many situations that there is no room for please. I will not ask a Soldier to please place fires on the objective or to jump out of an aircraft in flight. Asking please is just a polite way to do things while respect is ensuring you care of others doing what is expected from you and not demanding what others can not accomplish. There are times to be polite and there is time to place a boot in someone behind, I guarantee that regardless which one, others will respect you for who you are and not for how polite you can be. "Suck it up and drive on and I will lead our way home"

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 15 at 2014 5:24 PM

2014-09-15T17:24:20-04:00

My Sergeant Major when I was a cadet had 6 purple hearts from Vietnam and one day he had me following him as the unit photographer and he stopped to listen as the cadet (prior service) battalion commander screamed in profanity at the other senior cadets in formation. He waited a moment and then bellowed in all his magnificent authority "DROP CADET!" To which the shocked cadet commander quit his tirade and said "who me?" and the command was re-iterated even louder and he told the formation to go to parade rest. He then turned to me in fury and I locked up and he hissed at me "do you know why I did that?" (while the Cadet LTC continued to push ground) "NO Sergeant Major" was my quick reply. And this incredible man, normally of very few words and extremely careful of what he communicated to us, looked me in the eye and said, "you cannot call yourself a leader of MY soldiers if you cannot communicate to them without profanity." And to my wonder I realized that even after growing up in the military, my father and his friends never used F bombs and I never once had heard this true leader curse at us or in our hearing. Profound leadership lesson for me.

Response by PO1 Steven Kuhn made Sep 16 at 2014 6:34 PM

2014-09-16T18:34:16-04:00

Respect is a two way street. The men I led trusted me as they knew I would fight for their liberty and any promises made to them by those above me in the chain of command. I treated my superiors with respect, even when they did not deserve it, because that was the example I wanted my men to see. We learn to lead by men who lead by example. I respect all who have given up a part of their lives and their physical/mental well being in service to this country. I just wish our government showed the same sort of honor and integrity that our military has shown since its beginnings. Maybe if members of our government (all three branches) actually served in the military they would learn some strongly needed integrity that is much needed in Capitol Hill. Until we get some true leadership and integrity in all three branches I prefer to refer to Washington DC as "Crapitol Hill". If our government got paid for doing their job, they would actually owe the American taxpayer!

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Sep 26 at 2014 12:38 AM

2014-09-26T00:38:10-04:00

People need to learn the difference between being an NCO and a Sergeant; A Sergeant gets paid, NCO's lead and are consistent with their soldiers and conduct himself/herself at all times to bring credit upon the corp of NCO's, Military Service as well as her or his Comrades, keeping consistency, loyalty, reliability at the home, front, and unit. But, on the other side of this, a soldier also has to be adult enough to resolve a conflict if using the chain of command does not work. We have all had piss poor leadership, and it's worse as a civilian, you cannot judge the entirety of the Military based on one piss poor douche bag. There are always going to be PCS's, different units, to judge the military based on your experience in one unit is like judging a church based on the mentality of a few people in the congregation.

Response by SPC David Shaffer made Sep 26 at 2014 11:07 AM

2014-09-26T11:07:03-04:00

A lot of good points to think on. Thanks for the post MSG.

Response by Cadet LtCol Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2014 9:41 PM

2014-10-04T21:41:24-04:00

Yeah, some profanity and non-PC jokes everyone should handle, but at the same time, leadership should try to oblige people's feelings if it isn't inconvenient and delegate strongly enough to have the time to make sure they can remind their subordinates that they care about and respect them and to listen to and heed their concerns. As a cadet (right now), I've been advised that LTs, at least, notoriously are excessively harsh because they feel insecure in their authority. If I'm being a dick or being stupid, I will need not just my nearest NCO, but lowest Airman/Private to tell me so (politely, if time allows), or else I'm being a detriment to the mission and their well-being. Feeling disrespected should never be a reason someone ops not to renew their contract.

Response by SFC Lester C. made Oct 9 at 2014 11:30 PM

2014-10-09T23:30:08-04:00

I suppose you haven't met some of the airborne chaplains I have known that can out cuss a sailor, in their private offices of course!

Don't be a hippocrate,
Either be a bible thumper or be a soldier, not both!!
Do us both a favor and get out and practice your hobby!

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2014 10:53 PM

2014-10-12T22:53:38-04:00

If I have learned anything from the time I have spent in the military thus far, it is that a good leader knows their troops and knows how to lead them from not only the front, but also the back. A good leader shows you what to do and trusts that you are able to do it well because they have taught you to the best of their ability and you have understood to the best of yours.
A good leader to me is someone that can not only show me what to do and how to do it, but knows without a doubt they have taught me in such a way that I would be able to lead in their absence if it ever became necessary.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Oct 13 at 2014 8:28 AM

2014-10-13T08:28:26-04:00

MSG Private RallyPoint Member MSG, this is a great article which focuses on leadership and the message I received was derogatory leadership (while perhaps a style, even though not a good one) is still used in our professional military realm. That said, there is a time and a place for most things, but a lack of respect in any organization which is built and prides itself on respect is intolerable. Leadership is effecting change. If you as a leader are only able to effect change through yelling and use of profanity, perhaps you should re-visit your leader roots, regroup, and try again. Grant it, I have the foulest mouth of anyone, but I respect the persons around me and rarely use profanity in a setting where I do not know my audience will accept it.

Respect is reciprocal, the more I give, then more I receive. While I expect a new Soldier assigned to me to respect the stripes I wear, I also know through time, effort, and energy that Soldier will grow to respect me because of my professionalism, character, dedication to duty, and leadership. Ultimately for me, leadership was always summed up as "when we succeed the credit goes to the Soldiers, if we fail the responsibility rests with me."

Thank you for this interesting article and for bringing it up in this forum. (Oh and please tell SFC Ann Timmins hello for me)

SFC Joseph M. Finck USA (Ret)

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2014 12:19 PM

2014-10-13T12:19:40-04:00

I think one of the best things that ever happened to me, in addition to becoming a father, was coaching youth sports after I got out of the military. I had no choice but to NOT use profanity with the kids I coached. After awhile I learned it was actually more efficient and effective to not use any profanity in any situation. If you think about it, using the F word for example every other sentence is a waste of time and in the military (or any other walk of life) time is a very valuable commodity.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2014 7:43 PM

2014-10-13T19:43:44-04:00

"I'm grown, I'm grown." What does that mean? What do I care? In either case, I don't care and it infuriates me to here it said. In my opinion, the soldiers that throw that phrase out as a defense to their poor actions and attitudes tend to be the least mature of all soldiers. Often their inability to follow orders or be respectful is what gets them a reminder of who the boss is via use of colorful metaphors. Respect is not something a soldier gets just for joining the military. You don’t magically become a respectable person just by putting on a uniform it is something you earn though your actions and discipline. If a soldier walks into the military and expects to be respected by his or her leaders, then they are in for some reality. If they want to continue a career in the military they had better get used to earning respect, continuously. They may rise in rank, and get the respect due to them by way of their rank, but that should not be confused with professional, tactical or technical respect. This is a rough a demanding profession and if a Soldier cannot take some stern direction and a few big boy words then they need to reexamine their career choice. When I tell soldier to have a thick skin, I'm not just saying it to hear myself talk. Unfortunately, we are faced with young soldiers who have a poor, or completely lacking understanding of respect. They make the mistake of thinking they can place themselves on the same level as those who are senior to them in rank and service time because they feel like they are "grown." No 18, 19, 20 year old Private is "grown" no matter how mush he or she thinks otherwise and unfortunately some only respond to stern direction with some choice words thrown in so that they understand the gravity of situation.
All that being said, I do not believe that insulting or demeaning soldiers is acceptable either. Also, a Leader that only curses and yells to get their subordinates to follow orders is usually the sign of a poor leader. Unfortunately, subordinate soldiers have to deal with these types of leaders and must do so with respect, whether they like it or not. The structure of the military and the maintenance of good order and discipline does not allow for a clause that says you can disrespect a senior leader because they are poor at leading. Most good soldiers will perceiver, adapt and over come, or chalk it up to a lesson learned in how NOT to be when they are in a leadership position.
As far as curse words go...well, they come with the territory of the military. It is a fact that along with our demanding and harsh professions comes vernacular that can be just as demanding and harsh. None of this was an issue when I joined the military and I had and continue to have a great experience. Not until we allowed this pervasive civilian attitude of Political Correctness to poison our culture has it become an issue. If there are a few young soldiers who can’t deal with the demands of the military, whether it be verbiage or taking orders, or whatever, then I am all for them choosing a new line of work. There will always be someone else right behind them who enter’s the service, adapts, and contributes to take their place.

Response by Cpl Chris Rice made Oct 14 at 2014 12:06 AM

2014-10-14T00:06:17-04:00

I always told my guys that respect is earned and that they never had to show any respect to anybody; however courtesy should always be shown to everybody at all times, and the courtesies cannot be lost. Respect is a feeling, and not action; courtesy on the other hand is manner of conduct. When I salute an officer it was not out of respect it was out of courtesy, and their return was (Even if it had a coffee cup, cigarette, pen, or other crap that they happened to have in their hand) a courtesy because they didn't know me, and to expect them to have some respect for me was impractical, and untrue.

I think that I was not always courteous to my Marines as I should have been, and would do things differently now. I did however respect them.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Oct 16 at 2014 12:52 PM

2014-10-16T12:52:13-04:00

MSG Miles, if this isnt already known in todays military to respect at all spectrums of rank then it never will be, the Army has changed a lot since I was enlisted and it seems more adept to boy scouts or baby setting from what I have been told, being able to tell a NCO they need to back off or take a "time out" or drop 1st and prove to a lower enlisted that they can do the push ups before they require the soldier to do them??? just who is running this dog and pony show anymore?? Much like todays society the Military has become too lax if this is really the way its being ran now. What you will wind up with are soldiers who pretty much do what they want when they want and the chain of command is more or less there to collect a paycheck, pretty much like the German Army, I almost fell over from laughing at the way they do this 9-5 job thing they call active duty.

Response by SP5 Tom Carlson made Oct 16 at 2014 3:41 PM

2014-10-16T15:41:38-04:00

I can handle a little profanity but when a Superior begins an ass chewing with " you stupid F--kers are gonna pay, its ears of

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2014 7:05 PM

2014-10-23T19:05:59-04:00

I have all kinds of leadership since being in the military and since I was alittle bit older than most of the people I served with I expected that if I showed you respect that I would get it in return. I can say that I did have those leaders that would jump down my throat, but if they did than it was for a reason and I understood that. As long as they were professional about it than I had no issues, but if they went over the point that they were unprofessional I spoke up using a respectful and tactful response. The best team leader I had was a very blunt CPL from Massachusetts, who would correct us in a heart beat but was professional when doing it. People always thought he was a dick, but as long as you were doing what you were suppose to do than you would have no issues. A lot of people I think confuse someone who blunt and to the point with being unprofessional, and that comes from the younger generation that has never been told "NO" by their parents as they were growing up. Now as an NCO I do not care if my soldiers think I am dick when I jump on them for doing something they were told not do, because I know that I am not that type of leader who is unprofessional with my soldiers.

Response by 1SG David Spalding made Oct 24 at 2014 7:58 AM

2014-10-24T07:58:44-04:00

MSG, I couldn't agree more. I have a favorite quote that I often use. I tell young Soldiers to expect and demand great leadership. Then I'll add “There’s a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates.”
- General George Patton Jr
Leaders need to respect their subordinates if they want respect in return.

Response by 1SG David Spalding made Oct 24 at 2014 8:22 AM

2014-10-24T08:22:51-04:00

Additionally, the Army in its infinite wisdon has strayed from Leadership Principles in an effort to be modern and politically correct. I still have FM 22-100 from 1983, and from it comes:
1. Know yourself and seek self-improvement
2. Be tactically and technically proficient
3. Seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions
4. Set the example
5. Know your Soldiers and look out for their welfare
6. Keep your Soldiers informed
7. Ensure the task is understood, supervised, and accomplished
8. Develop a sense of responsibility among your Soldiers
9. Train your unit as a team
10. Make sound and timely decisions
11. Employ your unit in accordance with its capabilities

All the PC add-ons and modern touchy-feely guildelines don't change basic leadership, particularly "lead by example."

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 1:20 PM

2014-12-22T13:20:59-05:00

Respect is earned never given, With that being said if you feel like you have to force your soldiers to respect you you are already failing. I would rather a soldier do the right thing because they do not want to let me down rather than they do the right thing because they don't want me to punish them for messing up. As far as profanity in the military there is a time and place and if you are counseling, coaching or mentoring soldiers there is no place for it. There are a few UCMJ Articles on this topic not directly profanity but "provoking words" Article 117. If it is directed towards another service member or soldier in a negative way it is provoking words and it is prohibited under UCMJ Article 117.

Response by PO3 Aaron Hassay made Jan 1 at 2015 3:56 AM

2015-01-01T03:56:52-05:00

Now that looks like a ARMY bootcamp getting DROPPED and give me 1000 pushups photo op!? that recruit is probably pissing his pants..or saying FK what did I get into? or I won't do that again whatever it was he did. In the NAVY it was the same thing. I remember watching a lot of dudes just getting hammered dropped for a long time. I guess I scored well enough 70 on the ASVAB to be put in a decent company with other kids similar, as we were called a FLAG company. Regardless few got dropped and the kids that did not fit in got processed out of boot in a few weeks and never graduated. I was awarded a MERITORIOUS Paygrade Achievement Advancement award at graduation not knowing it was even available to earn, until it was handed to me, which really well bonded me to the NAVY and serving and succeeding. I won't get into the details of my enlistment, which I study, day and night, now 2014-15, 20 years removed from NAVY boot. But lets say things took a quick turn left and right north and south, as the training I had, and the billet was given did not match well as it was like putting a 1st grader in 10th grade and expecting good results as I review my personnel and enlistment history documentation, mixed with the "High Priority Unit" COMBAT SHIP, and things I was thrown into with my limited training, during the downsizing of the military in the 1990s squeezing the manpower with the OPTEMPO of the fleet staying the same or increasing would be felt even at muster in the days working orders, really started to get to me as the morale was low, but evals were passing, I suppose, but complaints on physicals of my "worry of the stress I felt in my heart down to my left hand",( of what I know realize after studying what I wrote in 1997 were symptoms of panic attacks attributed to hazardous duties I would be doing with very minimal experience or training), went completely 100 percent untreated undiagnosed, as the 2 or 3 enlisted CORPSMAN on the ship basically ignored and did not even take a blood pressure test(The ship did not have a MEDICAL OFFICER attached). Within that same year or the NEXT year, we had a change in COmmand Master Chiefs the highest enlisted top dog who just happened to have the same job as I did hence he was in the same department, had a nice(in his eyes) 1 on 1 physical meet and greet, FAN ROOM COUNSELING SESSION, after walking in on a conversation about my uniform needing a some tidying out at sea with a leading petty officer. Basically this new e9 that I did not know well but thought he had to kick a little dog down the street to prove a point. And he invited me" requested my assistance to work on some mooring lines alone" and once that hatch was closed WHAM BAM no thank you man...he thought he raised my obedience or somehow corrected something. Infact what he did do what make me feel fucking retarded and in the end I hated leadership, never got counseling, as the small ships did not have appropriate health programs, kept it to myself as talking about it to others just did not seem to really have any way of solving it in my head, fumed inside mad all the rest of my life basically, distancing myself from my then fiance getting dumped, blowing up on my mom over the phone all of the sudden acting really defensive all of a sudden, then discharged somehow honorably but a complete mess with no SEPARATION PHYSICAL(I Just realized to go over my handful of physicals and lousy chronological health care from 94-02) became a lunatic street fighter anxiety of people even really just looking at me, more interested in fighting then holding a job, got fired from every job I could get in civilian life eventually just giving up by 2005 embarressed and then suicide hospital embarresed upset broke and homeless...and amazingly never once bringing up that I was assaulted or was even in the military and honorably discharged to the civilian psych doctors who were trying to figure me out..then 2011 a complete mess just applied and got SSDI for anxiety and mood disorder...

that is what can happen from an older man who uses his fists to talk.to a younger man..who can not run away..and can not protect himself...while really freaking conflicted that he is smart.and originally was all about serving honorably and with valor and all the other good words...

Response by SSG Vince Sharp made Jan 1 at 2015 1:18 PM

2015-01-01T13:18:27-05:00

I think there is a very fine line between respect and discipline. In my opinion the fact is that (at least in the Army) you have two functions. Those who are going to engage the enemies of the United States in combat and those who support that function. I was a combat medic who was with infantry my entire career. I have seen both sides. I have seen the NCO's that abuse their power and I myself have always tried to be very strict and "hard" on my soldiers. I did this because I had seen first hand what combat was like and I knew what they would soon be going through. Did I curse? Hell yes I did. Did I smoke them? Hell yes I did. But each time I would ensure that they knew what the value of the training was. I think it goes beyond just whether or not you curse or smoke them. My soldiers knew that I was going to be with them in everything we did... good... bad... ugly.... and stupid. They knew by my actions that if I wasn't there it was cause I was doing something else that took priority. They knew that not because I told them, they could see it in my actions. Now, I will say this. I had a fellow NCO say that he would never use a derogatory word as a replacement to that soldiers name. I believe in that. I respected them for serving their country and as fellow men... brothers... I would curse sometimes because I was passionate or concerned about them learning a lesson but I would not call them something demeaning. I promise you that my soldiers never felt that I disrespected them and I would curse up a storm.

Bottom line, it comes down to the motivation of the leader. If the leader is a dirtbag then it's going to show in the way he talks and deals with his subordinates. If the leader has their best interest and the missions at heart that will be reflected also.

Just my opinion.

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 16 at 2015 4:21 AM

2015-01-16T04:21:31-05:00

In a word: Professionalism.

I slightly cringe when I hear individuals tout it is a softer or new Army. I believe it is an advanced Army and we have proven the ability to accomplish the same tasks with "less." That includes motivating and developing young Soldiers.

Everyone deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. If one needs to curse, constantly scream, or belittle their subordinates in order to garner results, then it is highly possible that the issue lies within the leader, not the Soldiers.

As a platoon sergeant, I was rightfully chewed out by my First Sergeant from time to time. I was not perfect, but I strived to be better. I never took it personally simply because my First Sergeant did not take my errors personally.

Nowadays, if a Soldier or leader habitually fails to perform, I never feel the need to exude an overzealous attitude, raw anger, or disrespect. It is just as effective to start the process to help that Soldier exit the Army. I know some individuals will retort that different units or branches have a different mindset or climate. I get that. I do. If someone does something that threatens safety, sterns words alone will not cut it. But, I truly believe that professionalism is not a grey area.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 22 at 2015 3:11 PM

2015-01-22T15:11:34-05:00

With all due respect MSG, I would like to point out that it is often not just a respect issue. In my personal opinion, and in personal experience, the harder, and (what can be percieved as) harsher you are with your soldiers, IN GENERAL, the more effective response you will get. If you take a cherry private fresh out of IET and tell him "Hey, Private, I want you to bound up that hill with your fire team and take out that bunker." sure, he'll do it, but if you raise your voice and command "Get your a** up that hill and take out that f****** bunker NOW." he will do it with more gusto and haste. No because he fears you, not because he wants to get away from you, but because he now understands that you are in charge and mean business. Absolutely, soldiers, as grown adults, and the bravest of 1% in America, have earned a level of respect. This is true. However, all good things in small doses, because it can easily turn into coddling the soldier and eventually undermining the purpose of the rank structure.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2015 3:31 PM

2015-01-23T15:31:29-05:00

If the soldier has a preference to not hear swear words and has made this preference known, then, out of respect, I would try to watch my language around them. With that said however, if someone can't handle some profanity in the military, then Lord help them when the fit hits the shan...

Also, it has been posited that people who swear a lot tend to me more honest and loyal...

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/publications/observer/2012/may-june-12/the-science-of-swearing.html

The Science of Swearing - Association for Psychological Science

Why would a psychological scientist study swearing? Expertise in such an area has different practical significance inside and outside the community of psychological science. Outside the scientific community,

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jan 25 at 2015 1:38 PM

2015-01-25T13:38:19-05:00

If you're so thin skinned as to be offended by this, then you don't belong in life. Life is tough. The military is tough. Do you know what a rain coat is? It protects you from the rain and keeps you dry. So just put on your physical rain coat and drive on. I don't see the use to stand and swear the air blue, but words come out and sh!t happens. Life is life. Drive on.

Response by 1SG David Niles made Jan 25 at 2015 3:04 PM

2015-01-25T15:04:23-05:00

Wow, I am shocked that someone voted down this post, twice. At what point does becoming a soldier mean that you have to endure profanity, at what point does it mean to be a soldier that you have to use profanity at a subordinate. Did we lose our ability to communicate. I just don't get it. Don't get me wrong, I swear, I use to swear a lot, but I learned not to do it around those that found it objectionable, just like I learned not to smoke around those who found that objectionable. I am all for treating those the way I would like to be treated.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2015 11:42 PM

2015-01-25T23:42:45-05:00

Being on both sides of the fence i understand both sides! It is almost like being a parent sometimes you just get so frustrated that you yell and curse but as a leader you have a core job and that is to train. After i have had a situation that i may or may not have cursed or raised my voice i call that young soldier into my office and we talk about it and i start it off with an apology if it is needed but the bottom line is i am there to train that soldier not just in basic soldiering or basic MOS functions but also how to be a good and effective leader. So i guess what i am saying is sometimes it is needed but you need to treat them like an adult they will respond and if they do not then there is always a pen and a good counseling statement.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2015 8:10 AM

2015-01-27T08:10:26-05:00

Amen! Respect is universal. There is a big difference between challenging a soldier to meet the standard and being a tyrant.

If soldiers don't want to perform, just chapter them. There is no need to go full metal jacket. The regulations are there to get rid of problem soldiers. We're just not using them correctly.

Many leaders need to understand the difference between fear and respect. Respect is something you earn. Fear is something you attempt to take without permission. Are you an honest broker or a thief?

If your soldiers will not follow you unless you make them afraid or threaten them, then it is YOU and your poor leadership that is the problem, or they simply cannot adapt and need to be separated.

This does NOT mean that you do not challege them. In fact I think many new soldiers are not challenged enough. We are robbing them of a sense of accomplishment after hard work and struggle if we do not challenge them. They deserve that feeling of self worth through validation. It often becomes intoxicating, which leads to habitual good performance and progress. They are not numbers, bodies, or pax. They are men and women!

This also does not mean that you cannot be direct with them. They need to know the truth. I cannot stand leaders that lie becuase they are hiding something or they think they can minipulate soldiers. That is NOT leadership. That is a lack of integrity! There is not reason to get in their face in a threatening manner that would otherwise earn you a punch in the mouth on the street. Sit down with the soldier and tell them how they are messing up, how to improve, and support them throughout that process. You will earn a lifetime of respect. I promise you!

Remember, you might meet one of these soldiers again in the future. Maybe on a battlefield where you need to count on them. Will they be there for you if they hate your guts? Will they go the extra mile for you?

Nowhere in any regulation is tyranny supported. Playing games with interpretation and relying on "tradition" is a cop out. If we are ready to throw regulations in their face when they do something wrong, then why do so many leaders kick moral values and regulation to the curb to take a leadership shortcut to employ fear and intimidation?

NCO's, I leave your with one line. "ALL SOLDIERS ARE ENTITLED TO OUTSTANDING LEADERSHIP".

Entitled means they deserve it regardless of your opinion. It's not optional. We need to start thinking of that line as a punitive regulation.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2015 10:19 AM

2015-01-27T10:19:56-05:00

Being an effective leader is a tricky balancing act, but it is not impossible. Leading by fear and intimidation might get the job done, but will your Soldiers respect you and trust you? Likely not. They certainly will not bring their problems to you, or trust you to help them.

In my close to 8 years in the Army, I learned the most from bad/toxic leaders because I saw and remember what not to do. I also remember what it felt like to be subjected to that type of treatment from a bad leader. I vowed that when I became a NCO I would not be like them. I talk to my Soldiers as human beings and brothers/sisters in arms. I let them know that I'm not entirely the rank that's on my uniform, but I will always insist on maintaining that professional "distance" in that I won't be their buddy nor will I hang out or drink with them.

Having studied a bit of psychology in college, I think I have a little insight into how the human mind works (and doesn't work in some cases). People want to feel good about themselves, feel accomplished, and are more likely to trust those who help them to attain those goals. Thus, helping your Soldiers succeed is the surest way to win their trust and confidence. This is where urging them on to greater things comes in. You don't have to threaten or yell at them to motivate and encourage them. Yelling at them and degrading them while using your rank to force compliance only makes them afraid of you and resent you. They surely don't think of you as a positive force in their lives or careers. They'll do what they have to do because that's what the UCMJ says they have to do. But it is far easier to treat Soldiers like the adults they are and have them WANT to accomplish the tasks you set them to. You usually get better results faster that way.

Yes, this doesn't work for all Soldiers, as you do get some bad apples who, for whatever reason, refuse to be compliant, and thereby refuse to be successful. These Soldiers DO need a firm hand and firmer guidance. Some truly don't "get" some things and truly are more confused than defiant. A good leader will know the difference and react accordingly.

When your Soldiers want to work for you, they will surprise you. As Patton once said, "Don't tell someone how to do something, tell them what you want done. The results may surprise you." This is true. As a long-time Specialist, (granted I was older and had more life experience) I usually knew of better/more efficient ways to get things done than some younger NCOs. So listen to your Soldiers because they might just have an idea that you didn't think of. Don't let your rank blind you to good ideas. Your Soldiers make you look good when there is mutual trust.

The payoff is when your Soldiers (or even someone else's Soldiers) come to you to ask for your opinion or your advice. This means they trust you enough to ask what you think. When they confide in you and trust you to suggest a course of action to resolve a problem, you know that you are not just a rank, but a leader.

How many "hardass" leaders can honestly say that their Soldiers respect and trust them? Respect is not Fear. There is a big difference. I would imagine not many, if any at all.

You don't have to be General Patton or Sergeant Hulka to get the job done. If you truly "know your Soldiers" then tailoring your approach to each one should not be difficult. The days of roughing up, belittling, and intimidating your Soldiers into compliance are over. To be an effective leader today, you need to be a human being first. Once you're past being "Billy Badass" then you can concentrate on being a good leader.

Response by SPC Ryan Burger made Jan 28 at 2015 3:03 PM

2015-01-28T15:03:12-05:00

While I served I had the dipleasure of have several leaders see it as their mission to force out soldiers they did like. I have a very good friend who would very like have been a career enlisted soldier, but when it came time to reup he was ready to be done.

At 3 seoerate time in my career I fractured my ankle, after the first time I went from a pt score of 280 down to a 230-250 because running became very difficult for me. At the time of the first injury it was thought I had a bad sprain, it took 3 more years and two more injury's for a doctor to order xryas and see the damaged that had been done, had surgery but was never the same. Long runs were difficult and I was often asked by members of my leadership if I just wanted to quit and they would make sure I got discharged. I spent 4 years with a Sgt major wanting to kick me out for being overweight and my higher than squadron average PT score.
For me Respect was very hard to come by because while I was very respected by pilots and other maint personal for my quality of work and ability to do my job, I was a bad soldier and received little to no respect from some of my immediate leadership chain.

It all worked out for me, but that potential career soldier got out and went to college like me. Only difference is he is going back in as an officer, he receives his commission this summer.

Good leaders can motivate soldiers to be their best, while bad ones can make good soldiers go bad. I had leaders who it was a honor and pleasure to work for, who I would strive to make look as good as I could. Late in my career I had some of those guys that I had wished I had earlier, maybe I would have ended up staying in.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2015 7:07 PM

2015-01-28T19:07:29-05:00

When I first joined the Navy, people worked together as a team. Stuff had to be done then you all worked together and stayed until it was completed. The Navy I believe has changed this as more of a competition against each other instead of working together. People now days are quick to throw people under the bus to make themselves look better. Just like if someone is slacking, transfer them departments instead of correcting the issue and do extra duty until that person understands the importance of what they did wrong. They want to put the work on someone else. I want to stay in because I love my job. What I don't love is the people that I work with due to not having respect for each other or the seniority of others above them.

Response by CPL Jay Freeman made Jan 29 at 2015 2:27 AM

2015-01-29T02:27:04-05:00

there are pros and cons to profanity example private please bring me the ammo can. private can you hurry and bring me the ammo can. private move you fing ass and bring me that can stop pussy footing around and get the job done we all want to go home.
The simple start is to ask in a nice way and then increase if they do not get the message then cus at them maybe that will get the attention if it still doesn't work then start throwing stuff at them or remedial training respect is earned not given. There is the saying you half to respect the rank not them person but if you respect them both then you have one hell of a leader and should learn from that person. As far as just standing around and cussing there is no real call for it it just shows your lack of intelligence and sheds your self in a bad light I was a 19 delta cav scout and also a combat life saver there are times I needed to yell to get it across to someone to get the lead out of there ass and move

Response by PO3 Aaron Hassay made Feb 4 at 2015 7:52 PM

2015-02-04T19:52:35-05:00

The more you look into DOD and Branch Medical Manuals you notice PSYCH professionals know what is going on. Check this quote out circa 1953 NAVY MED PSYCH MANUAL
What do you think of this quote I found NAVY MEDICAL PSYCH MANUAL 1953

Bureau of Medicins and Surgery
Department off the Navy
PSYCHIATRIC UNIT
OPERATIONAL
PROCEDURES
(Revised 1954)

"It is beyond the power of the medical or psychiatric profession to select or to
prepare personnel which will be psychiatrically immune to the hazards of poor leadership
or poor morale."

Response by SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA made Mar 24 at 2015 9:33 PM

2015-03-24T21:33:44-04:00

I am a Christian; I do not curse. I do not generally ask SM's to refrain from profanity in my presence, as I expected the profanity when I joined. If they ask about my preference -- as sometimes happens -- I tell them.
It would please me to no end to never hear another curse word, especially the casual strings of F-bombs and other profanity that I hear so often at work.

I've actually had my peers try to talk me into cursing, and tell me that the Army will make me a curser. I responded that that may be so, but for now I have both the discipline and the vocabulary to abstain from profanity.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2015 11:29 PM

2015-03-24T23:29:06-04:00

If an individual chooses to abstain from using 'profanity' that is their choice. If I chose to use what they deem as 'profanity' as part of my regular vocabulary, that is my choice. Why must I conform to somebody else's beliefs/morals/ideals? I can understand certain situations to an extent, and there are some occasions where it may be unprofessional. However if my choice of language gets my point across faster and more efficiently then I am going to use it. Seconds wasted can sometimes cost lives. Again this not always the case, but do we not Train as we Fight?

Because I chose to use vocabulary that you deem vulgar, is it acceptable for me to deem your choice of smoking, or dipping the same way? I do not believe so. Those are personal choices that you as an individual make. Asking me to change my vocabulary is like asking a person to stop using words that are part of their hometown local culture.

Another argument of "Would you use that language to your mother/wife/POTUS or whatever is completely irrelevant. If the situation deemed necessary to get a point across then yes, I would use whatever words best described what I was trying to say.

I am all for respect in the military, and I believe that it is important. It is our responsibility as leaders to instill that respect in our soldiers. Some of those soldiers happen to be hard headed and need a good yelling at to get a point across. But there are many different kinds of soldiers and always a different approach to handle them.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 11:29 AM

2015-04-19T11:29:22-04:00

I totally agreed, we should be treating our American best Soldier with dignity and respect. When I joined the Army back in the 90's that was the culture, the yelling and the cursing. But now we have a become a more aware and professional Army. I remember the words of wisdom that my SGM Joseph said to me "only ignorant people swear or curse for their lack of knowledge and words".

Response by SFC Stephen King made Apr 19 at 2015 12:26 PM

2015-04-19T12:26:16-04:00

I concur we should respect our Soldiers. If you are the type of leader who chooses to expell a fountain of profanity, all the the time it will become ineffective. I do not cuss however a mentor of mine once said "A well placed "F" in conversation can be effective."

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 12:30 PM

2015-04-19T12:30:12-04:00

I don't cuss at my soldiers or even refer to them in a profane way. However, I do curse around my fellow infantrymen. Usually referring to an inanimate object. For example, "Hey PFC Snuffy, grab a couple of ground guides and move our Bradley from the motor pool to f-ing maintenance bay. I'll meet you guys in bay 2."

If that makes me a bad leader, then there's a serious cultural issue that needs to be addressed, and perhaps I should start with myself.

Response by PO1 John Meyer, CPC made Apr 19 at 2015 12:51 PM

2015-04-19T12:51:55-04:00

This was my style of leadership and what I tried to teach both my juniors and even seniors.

But there are two types of respect; respect for rank and respect for individual.

Respect for rank is/should a given without question. It shouldn't matter if you think that individual is the worst soldier, sailor, Marine, or airman you've ever met. It also shouldn't matter if they are senior or junior to you.

Respect for individual is something totally different. This something that is earned by actions, deeds, and words. As leaders, this is something that should be striven for.

I can tell you from personal experience that I had a better group of juniors that respected both my rank and me as a person. They went above and beyond my expectations. They were always there for me when I needed them the most.

I've seen what happens when there is no respect for person. These individuals tend to get the bare minimum out of their juniors.

And this isn't just a military thing; this will also follow you in civilian life. One only needs to replace the word "rank" for "position".

As far as profanity goes.... I used it, but I found that if I only used it when I was really pissed, my juniors knew that they REALLY screwed up and that I wasn't just blowing off steam.

But then, I served in a different military branch from you. I didn't have to worry about getting my juniors ready for the stresses of combat.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 2:37 PM

2015-04-19T14:37:34-04:00

MSG Private RallyPoint Member - MSG, I disagree that respect is automatic. TREATING with respect should be automatic, but respecting the individual should still be earned. I will treat everyone with the same level of respect, but regardless, I respect the opinions of some more than others based on their experiences.

If someone requests me not to swear around them, I will. However, I refuse to live my life in "fear" of offending someone. This is who I am, and I will respond to those request me to modify behavior around them. I don't ask smokers to not smoke around me....I just move upwind. I don't ask homosexuals not to talk about their life, I just ask not to share "gory details", just like I would expect of any heterosexual. If something offends me, I will address it and I expect the same around me.

Being TREATED with respect is given (until lost)....being RESPECTED is earned. There is a small, but distinct difference.
v/r,
CPT Butler

Response by SPC Angel Guma made Apr 19 at 2015 5:18 PM

2015-04-19T17:18:53-04:00

I agree with most of what you said, msgt.

I would only add a few things to the discussion, this isn't meant to take away but to actually add to what you put forth.

1. Youth today both within and outside the military have great difficulty respecting authority. The military is up the river on this one, because you can only down so hard on young minds before its up to the young person to weigh and consider what their real values and morals are. Which leads to number two...

2. When youth get older and become NCOs or Officers, they'll still take that youth-mindset with them. I think much of what you observed in your post is this. Today's 30ish, 40ish NCOs and Officers were youth that were recruit at some point, and took that lack of respect with them as they made rank. They can't respect subordinates without putting them down needlessly because when they were subordinates, they couldn't respect fellow soldiers or their superiors either. Those that survived the NCOers and boards learned to squeak by through political gaming, backstabbing, saying one thing and doing another, and doing what was necessary to lie about their daily productivity. I believe respect goes both ways, but a big way of showing respect to superiors (at least this is what I've come to believe) is being able to be candid but truthful with your boss. Military leaders definitely need subordinates that can are willing to be candid and honest, or how else is a leader to function with the needs of the Army first? To me, lying to a superior about basic things or adopting a check the box mentality to promote a zero-defect mentality, and avoiding hard subjects is sending your boss just as much disrespect as the boss yelling at you or humiliating you publicly. Saluting or getting at parade rest when authority figures are around is easy. Keeping your military bearing while being honest with the CSM or battalion Colonel is far harder for a lower enlisted soldier. That doesn't mean for the lower enlisted to hold forth or berate his peers, but being honest in communication is something that too many in today's Army just don't know how to do. For young guys who do not know what respect is, its easier to 'Yes sir or Yes ma'am' an officer with a salute, say whatever it is you think they want to hear, and leave the situation as soon as possible.

With that being said, I've never gotten a real straight answer for these things either. There was a time I was like a lot of lower enlisted guys, griping about why things are the way they are, until I went to Afghanistan. Then I realized it from how authority figures might see things: when they know they are getting canned behavior from subordinates, but then see these same subordinates goofing off, and their NCOs are not much better, despair sets in the mind real quick. It becomes easier to just yell and berate people as they walk by you.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Apr 19 at 2015 6:43 PM

2015-04-19T18:43:26-04:00

Obviously respect for ones superiors is automatic and must happen at all times.. respect or at least professionalism should be treated down the chain of command and this is where a lot of people in positions of snco or officer power fail, there is a lot of "I'm "x" rank and your not so deal with how i feel that day.". This is a sad thing as leaders are suppose to be seen as people who are the height of military professionalism, not abusers of rank. Power and or position though seem to go to some peoples heads.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 6:47 PM

2015-04-19T18:47:27-04:00

Currently, I have six soldiers under me. Of those six, one is 19, two are 20, one is 24, one is 26, and the last is 34. Despite the differences in their age, they are all legal adults. When I took over as their squad leader, I told each of them that they are adults and I will treat them as such. We have a job to do, and when that job is done properly and to standard we go home. They know that they can come to me in confidence and ask me questions anytime they want.

My philosophy that I have explained to my soldiers is this: Respect is earned, not given. Though they have to be respectful of my rank and position over them, I need to earn their respect as they need to earn mine.

Showing your soldiers a little respect will give them motivation and drive to move mountains for you, all you have to do is show them that you acknowledge them as adults and human beings. When I say this, I don't mean befriend them and treat them special, I mean establish a good soldier/NCO relationship and make your intentions for them clear, and have them inform you of what they expect from you as their leader. A little communication goes a LONG way when dealing with your subordinates.

Response by SSG Dave Rogers made Apr 19 at 2015 9:43 PM

2015-04-19T21:43:34-04:00

I think that there is a confusion between respect and, professionalism and leadership for some. Cursing and yelling are disrespectful, but more than that it is unprofessional.

As leaders we have a responsibility to lead by example. For me, respect is earned, but professionalism is required. We can reflect on certain aspects of respect as they pertain to our lives, but at the end of the day it comes down to this, as a member of the Armed Forces we represent not just ourselves, but the citizens of the United States, our behavior says a lot about who we are as a country, not just a soldier. Our unprofessionalism even among ourselves tend to carry to when we are away from the unit, and effects how our subordinates carry themselves.

If we want to be respected we need to be more than how want others to see us, but how we want people to treat us. I always far more respected leaders who were tough but professional than those that barked orders and cursed at me. While respect does go to rank and position, more powerful is that which is earned.

I think the best example I have of this is when I was stationed in Korea, our unit commander and 1SG would spend time talking with and getting to know the soldiers, they held challenges to give soldiers a chance show their skills and earn days off. The next unit commander came in yelling and demanding soldiers followed him, unit moral went down and soldiers begged to leave the unit. We are only as strong as our weakest link and if the weak link is the leadership we are in trouble.

Response by SSG Lon Watson made Dec 16 at 2015 1:38 PM

2015-12-16T13:38:30-05:00

While I don't believe loads of profanity is professional, a little goes a long way. I think its going to happen and when it does we need to pull up our big boy/girl pants and discern the environment it just happened in. Also its the setting, who's there, etc. No I don't think tons of profanity is good, But we don't need to be knit picky whiners either.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 16 at 2015 4:41 PM

2015-12-16T16:41:18-05:00

I always treated my soldiers with respect and dignity there is no point in belittling someone. The only time I wont is if we had to take a hill. I would not say please but take that f@cking hill!

Response by SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres made Dec 18 at 2015 1:34 AM

2015-12-18T01:34:26-05:00

A little Rant

Don't want to hear me curse? Then follow Direction. I never resorted to certain language unless it was to alert the Soldier that his actions were harmful to himself or others. for example, "flagging' his fellow Soldiers with a loaded firearm. Have I been cursed at yes...

Eat the fish and spit out the bones. If the shoe fits wear it. We have Soldiers of all ranks becoming more and more opinionated on matters. But the majority of them do not use tact. Or they feel they no longer have to stand at Parade rest or snap-to like the rest of us. WRONG ANSWER Sunshine, you are not special.

You want to stand out?, max out on your Pt Score, win Soldier of the month board, Qualify expert in all of your weapons marksmanship training, take the initiative...then I might consider you as worthy. It was my job to develop and train, I took it seriously... I'm no longer in, but hopefully we have some NCOs that enforce the standard. That actually read FM 7-21.13 Chapter 4, Customs, Courtesies, and Traditions and enforces the standard.

I have assigned a few assignments and PT sessions regarding disrespect. I personally enjoyed providing an educational punitive action over the Pt session, or a combination of both. A 1500 word essay on the importance of Respect and Rank Structure was a personal favorite to assign. Counseling statements as well, you don't simply smoke a soldier. You should have the paperwork to back it up. Have a paper trail, if that Soldier doesn't shape up they will be shipped out to Fort OutsidetheArmy.

Response by SFC Brian Ewing made Dec 18 at 2015 11:21 AM

2015-12-18T11:21:26-05:00

The sad part of this one way beating lower enlisted Soldiers tend to take from their leaders is that if you respond back in any type of fashion where they felt disrespected then you'd be the one who'd wind up in trouble. It has happened to me numerous times when I was a young Soldier that my leaders cursed me or treated me in an inhumane fashion.

Respect should work both ways, I told myself when I acquire the rank of CPL, SGT and higher that I would always treat my Soldiers the way I wanted to be treated and I stuck to that.

The bad leadership I received did teach me exactly how not to be when I achieved higher rank and responsibility.

Response by SSG Keith Cashion made Dec 21 at 2015 6:32 PM

2015-12-21T18:32:05-05:00

Respect is something that is taught at home. If you are not learning respect until you enter military service, then there is a problem. Like one of the other gentlemen stated, I too am one that if I am smiling and quiet, there is a problem. Be afraid, be very afraid.

I respect every Soldier I meet, from the lowest PVT to the Senior GO's. They all get respect, but it is expected in return as well. I do not curse at my customers or employees for that matter. All of my customers are Soldiers and if in a conversation a swear word comes out, then so be it. I don't get bent out of shape about that. unfortunately, that is how some have been raised to talk. I have no problem with it until it is directed at me or my staff. Then we have issues.

I did my time in uniform, and have since decided to continue my time on the civilian side of the military. It doesn't matter what your rank is, I will not be disrespected. I don't need to meet your cursing with my own (very colorful), I have other ways of getting my point across.

Somewhere along the line in the past decade or so, the military changed. Customs and Courtesies are no longer either being taught in Basic, or people no longer care. There is too much of a sense of entitlement with people today. If you walk in my office and the first thing that comes to your mind and out of your mouth is that I am just another civilian and I know nothing about "The Real Military," we will have issues. People need to get over themselves and the idea that they are owed something just because they served. Yes I understand they deserve their benefits, but that it, nothing else. Is respect something that is not being taught anymore?

If the Soldier in this piece didn't know why the leader was cursing at him or ask to see someone over this leader, then unfortunately, being an adult in age makes you not a Grown Man.