Right or wrong officers are judged based on their running ability: do you agree?

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:04:17 -0500

I was told that officers can lift and be really strong, but if they cannot run they are looked upon unfavorably. What are your thoughts on this?

Any history buffs out there that know when/why this started?

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 15 at 2015 9:07 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:07:55 -0500

Soldiers in general I think..

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2015 9:11 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:11:01 -0500

so... what is wrong with that again?? If I pass my push-up, curl up with max but fail my running ... Do I pass my PFA? They are soldier too ... right?

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Dec 15 at 2015 9:41 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:41:06 -0500

Physical Fitness is one of the most VISIBLE things a person can do.

Running, specifically speed and endurance are the most VISIBLE things within Physical Fitness.

Fall out of a run, and you will have "negative visibility." Can't keep up on a run, and you will have "negative visibility."

It hearkens back to the "Perception is reality" and the "Set the example" mindset.

Somewhere along the line we got it into our mind that Physical Fitness was a Leadership Trait as opposed to a skill that assists Combat Prowess. That mentality has hurt the force at large.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2015 10:02 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 10:02:14 -0500

If you can't preform physically period, you are a no-go. Specific units have a running fetish. It's the primary endurance test we have. I'd say that a forced road march in full kit is a better test of what we are looking for, but we don't do that on a daily basis. Cross-fitters will tell you that they are the fittest on earth, but there are a lot of non-believers in the military. I think you can build endurance in a number of ways. The way we do it in the Army is to run. If you can't run...you are starting behind.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2015 10:24 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 10:24:25 -0500

LTC Private RallyPoint Member, I don't judge officers by how fast they run, but rather by which direction they run.
Do they run towards the smell of smoke and the sound of gunfire, or run away?
That is a much better criteria to determine the measure of the man than how fast they can go.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2015 10:46 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 10:46:45 -0500

I had a Commander in 3-15 INF, 3rd ID who had all the officers run with him weekly. After two years, multiple NTC/JRTC rotations and a combat rotation he still did not recognize me or the other LTS in my company.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 15 at 2015 11:47 AM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:47:26 -0500

I think 250 is marginal for an officer. 270 is expected.

Response by SGT William Howell made Dec 15 at 2015 1:08 PM

SGT William Howell — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:08:06 -0500

We had a guy, I will call him Fatty. When I say fat in mean his belt showed under his blouse because his belly stuck out so far it lifted the up the front. CPT Fatty was with HHQ and so he never seemed to be at any sort of PT. As soldiers, we all looked at him with disgust, but we knew he was never going to get promoted and we did not take a thing he said with any sort of seriousness. He was a disgusting sloth.

Next thing we know he has a gold oak leaf on. Major Fatty!!!! There was not a soldier left that had the least bit of respect for the chain of command after that.

So an officer, senior NCO, or junior NCO that can't run are seen by their troops as a leader that is not to be taken seriously.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2015 1:13 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:13:11 -0500

For all military personnel, I weigh physical appearance pretty strongly. Is your uniform faded, are the collars curled, are your sleeves cinched properly, is your top too short (I see that one all the time)? Additionally, do you appear to meet height/weight standards? All of this is far more visible than your run time. There are some serious implications in the comments that indicate that running speed – more than a passing score – is a consideration for some service members. I am a female. I am typically one of the first female finishers, but overall, that puts me in the bottom of the first third of runners (meaning 1/3 of people finish before me). My run score is typically between 90-100, but some people here say they would essentially consider me a crap officer because I didn’t finish first. There is absolutely no merit in that. I think it is fair game to take a negative view of a military member that doesn’t meet the standard, or who routinely falls out of (or no-shows) runs and rucks. But taking aim at people who pass is the kind of petty, back-biting, BS that holds us back as a force. I also think over-valuing PT studs is another mistake. I have officer buddies who spend 2 hours a day in the gym, but never once read a book outside of a class, can hardly point to Afghanistan on a map, and are “pals” at the gym with their Soldiers, not leaders. They can bench their body weight, but need constant developmental support to do their jobs. I have said it before and I will say it again, in my branch, as would be true in the majority of military specialties, I would rather have a Soldier who is marginal at PT, but a strong performer in his/her actual MOS skills, than have a PT stud who underperforms his/her actual job duties. To me, passing is passing, and that’s it. It makes as much sense to view a fast runner as a good leader, as it would to consider the person with the lowest cholesterol the best leader.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2015 4:28 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:28:02 -0500

I think some people are missing the point of the question. CPT Maurelli isn't asking about fitness in general, he's asking about running specifically. It's not just officers that are judged based on running, it's all Soldiers and yes I think it's wrong. Not because I don't think fitness is important but because long, fast distance runs aren't important for every job. In Artillery, we don't do a lot of long distance runs on the firing point. Instead, there is one Soldier who will sprint a short distance behind the howitzer with the unused powder increments, then run back after the gun fires. Everyone else is lifting heavy objects, like ammunition that weighs around 100lbs. When I was an AIT Platoon Sergeant, we did the physical standards testing that consisted of creating baselines on how new Soldiers did on tasks related to cannon crewmembers. The ones who were least likely to fall down or drop howitzer rounds were not necessarily the best runners. The APFT is supposed to test the Soldier's whole physical fitness but the Army only really pays attention to 33% of it.

Also, too many times have I seen awards or promotions go to whoever wins the question "who's the best runner", rather than "how many times has this guy been late, or how clean is his room or gear?".

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2015 4:39 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:39:48 -0500

You don't want to be that commander that falls out during a group run...so yes, right or wrong, a lot of officers are judged by their running ability. This may be the reason that the run is done so much during WOCS and BLOC (and probably all other officer career courses)

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Dec 15 at 2015 9:01 PM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:01:41 -0500

I have served with a Commander who could run, physically fit, but he had leadership problems. Many of the unit members lost respect for him as well. I judge an officer on much more than just running.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2015 11:54 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 23:54:25 -0500

Woosies if they can't. Company through BNgrade officers. After O5, cut them a break.

Response by 1LT A. Uribe made Dec 16 at 2015 9:47 PM

1LT A. Uribe — Wed, 16 Dec 2015 21:47:59 -0500

Most officers and enlisted are judged on their APFT ability, or their ability to be charismatic.

Response by SFC Terry Logsdon made Dec 17 at 2015 7:36 AM

SFC Terry Logsdon — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 07:36:10 -0500

if iam not mistaken it started after the vietnam draw down we went thru force reduction and the fat man program was started. pt test was changed from the 5 event to the 3 event and pt scores became part of the ncoer . just another way of weeding out the troops that they did not want in.

Response by LTC David Brown made Dec 17 at 2015 8:09 AM

LTC David Brown — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 08:09:58 -0500

I am very conflicted about this issue. I had bunked with a fellow in Korea. He was a Warrant Officer. God built a good old southern boy. Capable, understood how to get things done and how to get people to get things done. Every day I watched him put on his knee braces, swallow motrin and run. Great leader well respected and could get a job done. But he constantly struggled with height and weight and passing the PT test. I had a great female nurse friend. God made that women for comfort and not speed. Had a corpse man screwing up or junior nurse screwing up, she would either get them walking down the straight and narrow or they would be gone. Needed a job done she was the go to person. Again a lot of trouble meeting height and weight standards and passing the PT test. Worked with a full bull Neuro Surgeon who refused to get weighed or do a PT test. Great Neuro Surgeon. Died of Cancer, but being one of about three career neuro surgeons in the Army he had a lot of pull. He had turned down General and saved the Army millions testifying as an expert witness. He used to laugh, put a letter of reprimand in my file and I'll call the Surgeon General and have it taken out. Finally the chief of surgery had a couple of residents drag him down to get weighed. The neuro Surgeon said "OK I'm over weight what now?" Restrict travel? He laughted and said "so I will not be able to testify in court cases etc. all you are going to do is cost the Army money". Then we had a bunch of "all show no go". These folks looked like recruiting poster models, run like a gray hounds, strong like bull but couldn't find their rear with a compass, a map and a mirror. When we would discuss this issue I would ask if you went to war do you want some one who looks like a leader like Chamberlain, or some one who is a leader like Churchill? Then again we do need standards and maintenance of physical capability is something that leaders should do to meet the standards set for soldiers and help soldiers meet those standards. If you are in the service you know what the requirements are so just do your job and meet them. Being in the medical field we did not have unit PT or formations. I used to get to work about 06:00 hrs, get started for the day and get home about 16:00 hours then go do PT. It was all individual until the actual PT test.

Response by SSG Audwin Scott made Dec 17 at 2015 9:06 AM

SSG Audwin Scott — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 09:06:51 -0500

I had a Battalion Commander 1/16 Infantry, Ft. Riley Kansas, that got tired of constant DUI's. He had the entire Battalion in formation for P.T in which he led, smoked the s**t out of us and after doing that ran us to everyone fell out, he was the last man standing! Every Commander, CSM and 1SG's including were smoked. I say all that to say this does it make a difference if an officer can run and lead by example you damn right! Have I experienced some officers that shunned away from running yes I did. A good and true leader will lead from the front!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2015 9:35 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 09:35:35 -0500

Been doing this whole military thing since 1984. multiple deployments. Never once in the line of duty have I ever had to run more than 25-30 feet at a time. If you are in combat and you are running for more than 100 feet, you are in a world of hurt and it isn't gonna matter how fast you can run.

Response by MAJ Alvin B. made Dec 17 at 2015 2:34 PM

MAJ Alvin B. — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 14:34:20 -0500

In my experience no matter how proficient the officer, or how dynamic a leader, if the officer cannot lead a run, then they are looked upon as some how deficient. During my term of service this was a factor in selection for company command (as in can't run, can't command).

Response by SGT Alicia Brenneis made Dec 17 at 2015 3:23 PM

SGT Alicia Brenneis — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 15:23:19 -0500

As much as we had to run at FT. Campbell. .. if an officer couldn't run we (the enlisted ) judged them as soft or lazy. I don't know why. It was almost automatic. But at the same time that's how I saw all week runners. I think it's just a military association.

Response by LTC Kristina Williams made Dec 17 at 2015 3:30 PM

LTC Kristina Williams — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 15:30:07 -0500

It really depends what unit you are in. I was stationed at Bragg twice and if you were an officer and couldn't run...you were done! It's a different mentality there. On the flip side...when you make the rank of LTC you've served about 17 years; running all those years will wear on your body.

Response by SSG Todd Halverson made Dec 17 at 2015 3:43 PM

SSG Todd Halverson — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 15:43:13 -0500

I do not see how ones ability to run will affect their ability to lead. I guess it depends on if they are running towards the fight or away, that would have a reflection on their leadership. One of the thins I respected out of the better officers I worked with are;
1. Willing to do the work with the Soldiers
2. Would not volunteer a subordinate for something that they would not or have not done.
3. Meets and exceeds the same standards as the Soldiers.
4. Willing to make a decision, right, wrong or indifferent.
5. Willing to back up the decisions of the NCOs, as long as it is not illegal or immoral.

Response by SPC William Beckham made Dec 17 at 2015 5:06 PM

SPC William Beckham — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:06:41 -0500

I had a commander who could max out pt tests. Great commander who pushed physical fitness company wide also had a firs tsgt that loved running and probably wad the only reason I kept weight

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Dec 17 at 2015 7:59 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 19:59:31 -0500

I never see officers at PT, so I can't really say this would be a factor in my 'judgment'.

Response by SSG Mark Newman made Dec 17 at 2015 9:33 PM

SSG Mark Newman — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 21:33:49 -0500

Stamina! !!!!!! Will save your life and the life of your soldiers!!!!

Response by SSG Mark Newman made Dec 17 at 2015 9:37 PM

SSG Mark Newman — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 21:37:00 -0500

But setting an example is a huge part of being a great leader. So in peacetime training the leaders better lead from the front and that means on the track!

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2015 10:29 AM

PVT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Dec 2015 10:29:06 -0500

The answer to your question can significantly vary depending on MOS. Most officers I can worked with are naturally great runners and those that can't keep up are seen as inferior to their kind... Last week we had a Brigade run and my Bde Commander took us on 7.4 mile run which I never thought would be possible at his age but he did it and after that I developed mad respect for the man.

Response by SFC Stephen King made Dec 19 at 2015 10:33 AM

SFC Stephen King — Sat, 19 Dec 2015 10:33:12 -0500

From my perspective this is wrong in that as the military progresses it and all in need to be more adaptive in variety. Running is an unfortunately will always be the measure that is held the most accountable. LTC Private RallyPoint Member as a Senior NCO I look for a balance of all aspects of fitness especially since the Army has told me not to run and yet I am physically and mentally fit trained in my warrior tasks and drills...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2015 10:46 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Dec 2015 10:46:20 -0500

You cant lead from the rear you lead from the front.

Response by SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres made Dec 20 at 2015 12:41 PM

SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres — Sun, 20 Dec 2015 12:41:02 -0500

I judge whether or not officers have Pt belts on, as part of their uniform. If I don't see a PT belt on them, they aren't visible.

To answer the question, it is a factor even though it shouldn't be. If you are falling out as an officer though, I will assist you as I would any Soldier.

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made Feb 12 at 2016 10:45 AM

CDR Michael Goldschmidt — Fri, 12 Feb 2016 10:45:18 -0500

I wonder how fast Patton could run?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2016 11:39 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 12 Feb 2016 11:39:52 -0500

I recall around 2010 timeframe, our unit had a new high speed CPT PCS to our unit. He was coming from SFQC, where he was a med drop due to breaking his ankle on a jump. Physically - he was a stud, but he had a permanent profile that prevented him from running and for good reason. Yet, since he didn't run with us (the officers) during PT - our BN CDR viewed him in negative light, since our BN CDR was borderline obsessed with running (my opinion).

To give some background on the BN CDR, I was pulled up a week after the new BN CDR had taken command. I had been pulled up from a line unit to take over the S4 OIC's position, and I was fortunate enough to be there for the new BN CDR's initial officer PT session. We had in the ballpark of 15 officers (including CWOs) that morning and I remember the new BN CDR talking about how excited he was to lead the unit and that morning he would lead us on a short run and shouldn't be an issue for anyone to keep up. 9 miles and 78 minutes later, the only officers left were the S4 I was replacing (she was a frequent marathoner), my good friend who is a physical stud and now a CA officer as well, and me (I'm no stud - I'm just stupid and grind out painful moments). That set the stage right there - if you can't keep up with the BN CDR, you need to re-assess yourself and correct whatever deficiency you have.

Right or wrong - that seems to be the mentality of places like Campbell and Bragg.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 8:52 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 08:52:15 -0400

I'm sure we've all seen those PT stud officers/commanders who could run like the wind but couldn't lead a slice of lemmings over a cliff.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2016 11:08 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 May 2016 11:08:23 -0400

If you're not fast, be strong. If you're not strong, be fast. No matter what, you need to look good in uniform and fit enough to lead from the front. No one is leading anyone in a 5k individual run into combat though so I've never felt that I've been looked on unfavorably for not maxing out my run time. Perhaps its a different culture in the Army concerning the APFT?

Response by CPT J B made Dec 7 at 2018 3:42 PM

CPT J B — Fri, 07 Dec 2018 15:42:52 -0500

Almost everything about today's Army is the result of a 1950s overhaul following the Korean War. In 1954, the Ranger Department of the Infantry Training School was handed responsibility for reviewing and re-writing the Army's training and doctrine for physical fitness. The 1-mile run first became a part of the mandatory fitness test for Army combat units in 1957. Previously, the run portion of the fitness test for the whole Army (going back to 1906) had been a 300-yard shuttle run. And this was done at CO's discretion. By 1959, the 1-mile run was standard across the Army. The 2-mile run replaced the 1-mile run in 1973, following a symposium on fitness at Fort Benning.
So, where did the distance running at Ranger school come from?--Gen. Lucian Truscott and his "Truscott Trot" fast-paced forced march for the new Ranger battalions of WWII. Truscott likewise had brought the distance run from British commandos.
As far as the history of officers being judged on their running, that's human nature. Part of leadership is a willingness to share in the hardships of the subordinates and to set an example and motivate them by out-performing many of them. There are some run-obsessed leaders in the Army today, especially in the general officer ranks. People who reach high levels at anything tend to be highly competitive about everything. Running is one of the ways a leader can measure himself against the rest of the pack.