ROTC officers removed after Brockport students hospitalized. Is our Army becoming too soft?

2015-12-02T20:17:26-05:00

This is sad for the PMS & SMI. Pathetic kids don't deserve to be contracted if you can't do PT. I guess if they tried for Ranger Challenge they wouldn't end up in the hospital. They'd end up in a funeral home because of tiny heart syndrome.

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2015/12/02/rotc-officers-removed-after-brockport-students-hospitalized/76660958/Opinions?

ROTC officers removed after Brockport students hospitalized

Two top Army ROTC officers a College at Brockport removed after 12 student were hospitalized.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2015 8:40 PM

2015-12-02T20:40:14-05:00

I was looking for the abuse in the article and didn't find any.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2015 8:54 PM

2015-12-02T20:54:27-05:00

Agreed LTC Private RallyPoint Member , there doesn't appear to be any abuse. Nothing in the article says they were physically forced. Sounds more like a failure to properly hydrate and poor prior conditioning. I'll be interested to see what the outcome of the investigation is. I made it through air assault school at 30 and completed the 30k Norwegian foot march at 32, and I'm certainly not in the shape I was as a cadet. There has to be more to this.

Response by SSG Kelly Ferguson made Dec 2 at 2015 9:05 PM

2015-12-02T21:05:51-05:00

It's clean some people just don't understand why things happen, other push themselves to the breaking point and just break.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Dec 2 at 2015 9:43 PM

2015-12-02T21:43:14-05:00

Astounding, CPT Private RallyPoint Member. I endured worse playing high school football.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Dec 2 at 2015 9:45 PM

2015-12-02T21:45:18-05:00

"Too" soft. I would have edited it myself, but I think I have lost my edit privileges due to reduced activity.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2015 9:59 PM

2015-12-02T21:59:27-05:00

There has to be more to this. I could see 1 or 2 hospitalized, but 12??? Some for multiple days.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 2 at 2015 10:24 PM

2015-12-02T22:24:29-05:00

The problem does not lie with the cadets who went to the hospital. The problem lies with the planner, executer, and approving official. This was an event in line with very poor judgment.

Response by CSM Carl Cunningham made Dec 2 at 2015 10:36 PM

2015-12-02T22:36:08-05:00

#CADET LIVES MATTER

Response by COL Jeff Williams made Dec 2 at 2015 11:59 PM

2015-12-02T23:59:36-05:00

Please keep in mind that ROTC is a entrance portal to the Army, even many high school athletes have trouble with the APFT as they in their particular sport may nor be used to the three events. That being said, that is too many students to fall out. There is more to the story but I agree with others that there was a lack of proper planning and most definitely hydration. It was interesting to see on the webpage the bio of the PMS. I guess I didn't realize that CGSC was "coveted."

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2015 1:35 AM

2015-12-03T01:35:32-05:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member, while I can understand your thoughts, consider:
Twelve cadets going to a hospital after any training event is a lot, anywhere. While we don't know the maladies that the cadets suffered, one can surmise. Most likely, there was an under-hydration issue. If it were extraordinarily hot, it could have been over-hydration flushing electrolytes and causing cadets to pass out. This happens when you don't have prudent and appropriate control measures in place.

I am all for hard, challenging training. That Murph is no joke. But our responsibility as leaders is to make sure we set conditions that will not unduly risk injury or illness. The ROTC leadership failed to do that, so they were fired.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Dec 3 at 2015 2:27 AM

2015-12-03T02:27:39-05:00

I guess that the Army was more than they could be.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Dec 3 at 2015 3:13 AM

2015-12-03T03:13:45-05:00

the first ever soldier in the world said to the second ever soldier in the world " you young guys have it easy"

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2015 6:05 AM

2015-12-03T06:05:56-05:00

Not sure I buy that it's all on the cadets. 12 hospitalizations is awfully high. Of course, you don't need to force kids to do something that they're not sure they can do in this sort of environment. They're supposedly all there because they want to serve and nobody wants to fail.

I'm all for good PT, but we had cadets of varying degrees of fitness in the program I briefly attended, and we never put two squads' worth in the hospital for multi-day durations.

Response by SGT Robert Deem made Dec 3 at 2015 7:42 AM

2015-12-03T07:42:06-05:00

It sounds to me like a failure to train-up and supervise. You take a bunch of kids who are not used to intense physical exercise and throw them into something like "The Murph". Mix that with testosterone and peer pressure, then fail to ensure that they are staying hydrated and getting proper nutrition over the course of several days. It is entirely unsurprising that you end up with some injuries. This is not a case of our Army getting soft. This is a case of leaders not taking care of their responsibilities.

Plan and train-up to the event. Make sure the participants are properly prepared to take on the physical stress. Conduct ORM and mitigate as many potential risks as possible. Then SUPERVISE.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2015 8:40 AM

2015-12-03T08:40:39-05:00

It depends on a lot of factors. If these cadets were MS Is with little fitness in their background, or MS IVs preparing for commissioning being just one. Whatever PT program you conduct has to take into consideration the fitness level of the soldiers/cadets being trained.

Response by COL Tony Morales made Dec 3 at 2015 12:33 PM

2015-12-03T12:33:18-05:00

Are you serious? Taking a bunch of college kids and running them through some crazy physical stuff like Crossfit on top of an already intense physical fitness program is negligent. The issue here is that 12 college students went to the hospital. They did not goto the hospital because the hospital was giving away free beer. They went because they were injured. As military leaders, it was the duty of those officers and NCO's to assess the risks by knowing their people and establishing a program that fits. Unfortunately this is a career ender for the PMS. But what about that Captain or the Contractor who was leading those students? Or was this a student led (MS4) session?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 3 at 2015 1:19 PM

2015-12-03T13:19:28-05:00

One of the career killers is injuring or killing someone during training. A leader who does not recognize this is foolish.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2015 1:29 PM

2015-12-03T13:29:07-05:00

I am with the opinion that each generation of service member has consistently stated to the newer generation of service members how much more hardcore their branch of service was when they were in. And how soft the military has become year after year after year. I guarantee the Civil War veterans said this to the young bucks that were serving in WW1 and then they complained to the WWII troops then to Korea and then onto Vietnam and so on. It's an endless cycle. I truly believe that things must've improved. Why would we not close the door on lessons learned and not learn and move forward in order to improve? BUT, some service members do deserve to be "humbled" (aka "ass beaten") when necessary, if you catch my drift.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Dec 3 at 2015 5:38 PM

2015-12-03T17:38:06-05:00

At the basic level, the mission of the ROTC program is to source, train, and prepare the student for commissioning. While I'm not familiar with "the Murph," 12 Cadets hospitalized?! Something is awry. LtCol Bringer, as the CO, is yet responsible for everything the unit does... or, fails to do. I'll wait for the results of the investigation.

Response by LTC Jeffrey Strickland made Dec 3 at 2015 7:33 PM

2015-12-03T19:33:13-05:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member, I have been retired for 10 years but rumor has it that it is becoming softer than I knew it to be.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2015 10:51 PM

2015-12-03T22:51:38-05:00

I actually saw a thread on Reddit with someone from the school commenting on this. A number of the cadets seem to be experiencing Rhabdo, which like previous commenters have mentioned, can be caused by lack of hydration.

However, I believe there was also a command climate issue here (which the article doesn't specify).

Finally, I don't think ROTC is getting too "soft." I think it is trying to become a better filtering tool to determine where our officers should be and where they will most effectively serve. I think what the Army and USACC have come to realize is that it's not just about being able to spit out a perfect 5-paragraph OPORD. The fact of the matter is is that we don't need every officer in the Army to be a great tactician, and the Army is adapting to that.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2015 9:35 AM

2015-12-04T09:35:32-05:00

LT, you have to look at the big picture before coming up with these type of judgements such as "little heart syndrome." The article doesn't provide details but it sounds like there was negligence from the leadership. There is more to a training event then just execution.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2015 11:20 AM

2015-12-04T11:20:56-05:00

This is the fault of those who planned and approved the work out. If this workout was going to be so difficult that it send a dozen cadets to the hospital, the officer who created and approved this plan should be investigated. Here at the naval academy we have an evolution that lasts the entire day during our freshman year called Sea Trials. This days starts at around 0430-0500 and does not end until 1730-1800. There are numerous safety personnel to make sure that no one is injured. Where was this safety personnel during this evolution? All work outs are supposed to be planned and approved to weed out an 'over exerting' and unnecessarily difficult work outs. Now maybe this workout wasnt that tough and these kids are just 'wimps' but i can not speculated because i could not find the work out or i just missed it. My point is that everyone from the planner to the approver of the workout should be looked at and investigated due to the sheer amount of students that became incapacitated due to this work out.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2015 11:28 AM

2015-12-04T11:28:13-05:00

100 pushups? I'll take that overy 100 meter alligator push-ups, 100 meter bear crawls, 100 meter caterpillars/inch worms, 100 meter crab walks, rest, and repeat................ hypothetically lol

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2015 11:45 AM

2015-12-04T11:45:01-05:00

I think the ROTC officer just way over estimated his cadets ......

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2015 11:50 AM

2015-12-04T11:50:53-05:00

When I was in ROTC we did nearly the same workout described in one of the "incidents". A lot of pushups, a lot of situps, squats and miles of running. Understand the risks and prepare yourself. Hydrate, stretch, do whatever you've gotta do. It's not the worst thing in the world and you've decided it's something you want to give a go. The army shouldn't accept children, new cadets and privates included.

Response by PO1 Billy House made Dec 4 at 2015 12:29 PM

2015-12-04T12:29:58-05:00

It sounds to me like they might have gotten rabdothemisys. Kidney failure from protein excreted during pt. Usually results from over taxing the muscles. If your out of shape and uou go balls to the wall. Happened to me when i went from 1 a days 5 days a week to 2 a days 6 days a week.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Dec 4 at 2015 1:59 PM

2015-12-04T13:59:38-05:00

I think some precautions should be taken before condemning the leadership team that put this activity in place. If it took place over several days, obviously the cadets knew that something was wrong with them and should have let their chain
of command know that something was wrong.
The Murph is a beast yes, however I seriously doubt doubt that it was being performed at a Crossfit championship pace. Something like that should have been, while difficult, as designed to be, within the grasp of the participants.
I suspect that several will be found to have previously unknown medical issues.

Response by 1SG Jacob Baty made Dec 4 at 2015 2:34 PM

2015-12-04T14:34:33-05:00

The SMSI is a hell of an NCO who would never put his cadets in harms way or haze them. I just hope the investigation doesn't turn into a witch hunt where someone has to hang. (fingers crossed)

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2015 5:45 PM

2015-12-04T17:45:07-05:00

well who ever was in charge shouldd be demoted and removed

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2015 5:51 PM

2015-12-04T17:51:00-05:00

I would say there is probably more to the story on this one. 12 cadets down, seems a bit out of the norm. The event doesn't seem too far fetch, but the article doesn't say much about which year(s) the cadets were in? or did it didn't cover the spectrum of MS1 - MS4s. Assessment of their physical abilities and a overall risk assessment would have been in order. I say we are too easy on ALL our Soldiers, pre or post basic/AIT or commissioning sources. The new PRT I do not like, but I am a big fan of "functional fitness". Load them up and go through actual activity we would experience in combat is where I think we should all be when it comes to physical training.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2015 8:32 PM

2015-12-04T20:32:18-05:00

Don't think you should rush so quick to judge the situation. Rhabdo is a real emergency and can lead to serious kidney issues - the fact that these kids ended up in the hospital meant that they trained way past the point of physical benefit - they pushed themselves too hard. Maybe they weren't in the best shape prior to, but that's no excuse for the supervisors not to create a real PT program instead of just throwing the gauntlet (and probably losing a few good prospective officers in return).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2015 12:07 AM

2015-12-05T00:07:48-05:00

12 out of 55 were hospitalized. What condition are the rest in? There is not enough information atm. Hold your judgements until the results of the investigation. Who was supervising the training? Were the students adequately hydrating and eating substantial meals on their own time. Did any of them have alcohol in their systems? Was there any indication of them being pushed too far and then being forced to continue? The workout isn't that crazy, there has to be more to this.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2015 2:11 AM

2015-12-05T02:11:43-05:00

I agree. I am very soft. Squishy even. Speaking of squishy.... I've got an office next to an AF TACP and his "callsign" is Squishy.

Response by Capt Chris McVeigh made Dec 5 at 2015 2:48 AM

2015-12-05T02:48:28-05:00

Without knowing any more than just this article: They deserved to be removed from oversight of the program. Having 12 people hospitalized is a very high number and a huge failure of leadership. The one example they sight is the Murph, people going down due to the excessive exercise. It's a popular workout, I've done it, so have thousands of other people. The point here is that the individuals in charge failed their subordinates by breaking them in physical training they were clearly not ready for. This is a failure of supervision and utilization of a proper training workup as far as I can tell, that's really not the kind of thing you want to have in an introductory training program.

Again, that's just a first opinion based on this article.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2015 4:00 AM

2015-12-05T04:00:43-05:00

Hm, "a darkening of urine" and "condition of muscle breakdown". Gee that sounds familiar. Oh that's right, it's called motivational PT you disgusting fatbodies, now get back on your faces, low crawl that hill, and when I say low crawl, I mean noses lead the way. Christ on a cracker, they went to the hospital for exercising? Where's the Duffelblog watermark?!

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Dec 5 at 2015 8:28 AM

2015-12-05T08:28:04-05:00

If any unit commander put 12 out of 50 of his people in the hospital from a 3 day period of PT they would be relieved. Looks like common sense wasn't very common. A good leader doesn't set out to physically break the people he is entrusted to train. There are always going to be those who won't meet standards or don't have what it takes, raising the bar to a level where you cause physical injury to what is in essence entry-level personel isn't a smart move.

Response by MAJ Karl Stumpff made Dec 5 at 2015 9:37 AM

2015-12-05T09:37:46-05:00

This is a good example of Cadet Command throwing the baby out with the bath water. Had similar experiences during my association with ROTC. This also shows up at OBC after they're brought on AD. I've always admired the Marine Corps methodology for officer assessment. It eliminates the unfit ones up front. There is also pressure from the respective universities to not "hurt" their students. The Army might be paying their bills, however, the school actually owns them. As such, there is another finger in the pie. BTW, cadets are a rather soft and fragile bunch anymore.

Response by SPC Andrew Griffin made Dec 5 at 2015 12:16 PM

2015-12-05T12:16:35-05:00

The Army ISN'T getting soft! You just have men in POWER who are expanding their THINKING!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2015 6:57 PM

2015-12-05T18:57:08-05:00

Boy this is going to be an unpopular response:

These two top cadets should be removed. Not for having their subordinates conduct physical activity, but for being so stupid and following crossfit. While the article doesn't state that they were conducting crossfit. It's a good idea fairy that came directly from "the crossfit games" - the biggest joke in sporting events.
from what I read it sounds like no care was given take into account participants physical capability or adequate recovery time was provided between events. Instead going with the staple crossfit stamp of approval of doing as many repititions as physically possible, as fast as possible, and to completely disregard any correct form or measure to conduct the exercise.

Medically I garuntee the injuries were a range of muscoskelatal (probably shoulder separations too from all those "pull-ups" if you can even call those jokes pull ups) to full heat casualty. "Hospital visits from a couple hours to a few days"- is where I'm drawing conclusions on injury based on experience.

This has nothing to do with the army going soft. Instead it's an example of how bad things can go for soldiers when two knuckleheads who lack foresight get into a position of power and get a dumbass idea in their head.

And now for some comic relief- listen to a guy ridicule the exact workout the cadets preformed. Copy and paste-

Response by MSG John Melville made Dec 5 at 2015 7:08 PM

2015-12-05T19:08:38-05:00

I suggest that this generation of recruits are too soft. I work at a basic training center and have seen many basic trainees being treated for orthopedica conditions. I spoke to an ortho tech about this and he advised that the current generation had thinner bone density due to inactivity.

Response by SSG Scott Burk made Dec 5 at 2015 7:17 PM

2015-12-05T19:17:05-05:00

Too much, too fast! Look up Rhabdomyolysis...This could have caused kidney failure and even death.

Response by PO3 Sherry Thornburg made Dec 5 at 2015 8:10 PM

2015-12-05T20:10:32-05:00

12 out of two college groups doesn't sound horrible or a sign of overall weakness. But it does sound like some members weren't preparing for it in advance. Can't to that kind of stuff without properly training up for it.

Response by PO3 David Davis made Dec 5 at 2015 8:54 PM

2015-12-05T20:54:07-05:00

Sounds like 12 students just washed out of the ROTC program. I hope.

Response by SSG Pamela Smejkal made Dec 5 at 2015 9:55 PM

2015-12-05T21:55:21-05:00

Hmmm. I don't see "The Murph" in FM 7-22. This is ROTC first off, second off its Army ROTC and Not Buds, not Ranger school, their is a proper way to conduct PT on any level. Any variation can and will cause injuries. You have a proper warm up to prep you for certain excersizes, type of authorized excersizes, and a proper cool down. If you want to do "The Murph" to honor a fallen hero so be it, but it's not for daily PT, something to do on your own time or special event. These are future leaders in the Army and they should be trainer correctly.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2015 2:19 AM

2015-12-06T02:19:13-05:00

why is it that when someone complains others demean their character? sometimes bad calls are made!!!! In this case, 12 different people went to the hospital with symptoms of muscle breakdown, this kind of stuff can shut the kidneys down and kill a person. These kids didnt have tiny heart syndrome, they had the common sense to seek medical help.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Dec 6 at 2015 4:24 PM

2015-12-06T16:24:23-05:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member If one or two Soldiers falls out of a run or cannot complete a PT session, you may attribute that to physical conditioning. When 12 Soldiers are hospitalized, it is a leader issue. You made the comment about tiny-heart syndrome without knowing the facts and called them pathetic. I have seen leaders have similar attitudes and it is usually within a toxic leadership environment. I hope you have a different attitude with your own Soldiers since you are responsible for taking care of them.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2015 5:53 PM

2015-12-06T17:53:24-05:00

Sounds like the tl;dr here is "ROTC cadets do crossfit-style workout; hospitalized for rhabdo"

Crossfit puts people in the hospital. This we know. It's old news. Stop doing it, and stop making people who are out of shape do it.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Dec 6 at 2015 8:58 PM

2015-12-06T20:58:32-05:00

a long time ago I was a medical sgt in the 3d US Inf (The Old Guard) the daily training of those soldiers was all on pavement, PT, Ceremonies, Funerals, all on pavement or manicured grass. Them I went out as the Sr Medic for field training at AP HIll; there was snow and ice on the ground - running on pavement doesn't build up the ankles and knees the way that running on dirt does. They arrived at AP Hill and the officers announced "WE'RE RANGERS NOW!!" 12 hours after they went into the woods, damn near the whole company came back, this mass of soldiers with loads of uniforms to put in the dryers in the barracks, taking hot showers for the cold, I was wrapping ankles and knees like a machine, 4 soldiers were put into their beds, totally passed out from their exertions ( the first one to wake, woke up after 48 hours), for 3 days I never slept more than 2hours at a time, as I was checking their TPRs every 2 hours on the 2hours, and once a day a whole load of GIs coming back from the field, and I'm back to wrapping ankles and knees like a machine and a shitload of cold meds, oh, and the frostbite cases; there was a SFC who had had frostbite before, I took him in to the post clinic, the medical NCOIC there told him that he was now on permanent profile for cold climates, wanna watch a SFC cry?? tell him that the 1SG he was expecting in the near future will be a lot later than that because he is no longer available for worldwide deployment. It they had told him at his 1st frostbite case when he was a buck Sgt he could have been a happy ex-infantry supply or paperwork NCO, but now he's locked into infantry and can't get promoted.
I was glad to see that post in my rear-view mirror

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2015 12:03 PM

2015-12-10T12:03:14-05:00

Tiny heart vs. Poor Leadership. I'll vote the latter on this one.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2016 10:11 AM

2016-04-01T10:11:19-04:00

It looks like they just did the events and were not proper built up to the exercises. Your body will go into shock.

Response by Cadet CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2020 6:09 PM

2020-04-01T18:09:12-04:00

Hydrate or die-drate?

On a more serious note - Soldiers/other military personnel go to the hospital (or advanced medical treatment) for dehydration/pt-related injuries all the time, I feel this hit the news cycles more to it being “poor baby college kids”...regardless, with practically anyone being allowed to enter (and remain) in ROTC (unlike most other Military Schools), the PMI and SMI have an even greater responsibility to ensure all Cadets are not being pushed too hard.