ROTC or WOCS to fly in the Army?

2019-06-13T00:35:07-04:00

For those of you that seem to comment on my questions regularly: I have sworn into the Utah Army National Guard!

Now for everyone: My plan as of now is this. Participate in RSP through the end of this year. Report to Leonard Wood 07 January for BCT, then complete 88M AIT. Return home, drill a couple times, then contract with my university’s ROTC (I’ll be a junior next fall, so timing is perfect there).

It’s been a point of contention on another question I posed, so I’ll address it straightaway so we’re all on the same page. I scored well enough to qualify for any Army MOS, but chose 88M because it gets me back home the fastest, and because that MOS election disappears as soon as I contract. Therefore, I was told that it didn’t matter to my long term career.

As I’m beginning to really try and figure out my branch goals when I commission (yes, I am aware that I can only offer my hopes and dreams to the mercy of the Army, and that those hopes and dreams will most likely be crushed), I have started to seriously look at Aviation. Specifically to fly. No matter what I do, I want to complete my degree.

The question to the community here is this: Am I better off contracting ROTC and (theoretically, assuming it’s offered to me) accept an active duty commission and try to branch Aviation, or should I complete school and then put in for WOCS to fly? I love aircraft in general, but have only been in a helicopter once (I absolutely loved it). Therefore, I can’t with certainty say that my goal is to *only* fly through a 20+ year career.

So with where I’m sitting now, (sworn into the Utah NG, but not MOSQ) what would you suggest I look at, moving forward?

Thank you for taking the time to read and reply to this!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2019 12:39 AM

2019-06-13T00:39:53-04:00

Sounds like ROTC is a pretty sure thing-but aviation is not. If you have a stellar SIFT test score a 300 on your APFT, can pass a Flight Physical and feel your a sound MSII (top3 in class) and would do very well at Advanced Camp I would do ROTC and fight for an AV slot

If you don’t think you are there, working your way to flight slot as a warrant in the guard is better. On AD you have even less of a shot than ROTC because your metrics would be as important in the AD to get a coveted AV WO slot

I recommend ROTC as either way you get commissioned and can work it from there

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2019 1:08 AM

2019-06-13T01:08:30-04:00

From what I understand, Wing Warrants fly, Aviation Officers can fly, but often end up in managerial roles within flight units and don't fly as often, other then what they need to maintain annual flight hour requirements. But I am ignorant about this subject. My gut tells me that you should go WOCS route

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2019 1:34 AM

2019-06-13T01:34:59-04:00

I’ll say based alone of ur GR score, you are a fairly intelligent person. I would agree that since u don’t really want to fly a 20 year career, ROTC is a great option. You should do well in school and GPA is an important part of the equation for getting both AD and then branching AV. PT is another factor and then how well you do at camp. We need pilots no doubt. The longer track is trying to do WOFT bc u need to obtain a certain rank, Time in service etc...... immediate results can be ROTC. Here is the kicker, even if for some reason you do not get selected for AV branch, u can compete within the Army Medical Dept for slots to fly medevac. You are essentially a 67J and should get a great deal of flight time. U could apply for this almost immeyafter hitting active duty. I don’t think u will need to do this though. Like i said, from ur GT score i am sure ur GPA is great. Over a 3.3 and you are on ur way to AD. And since u want to go AV, it also helps towards AD. I should mention that ur degree also influences ur selection for AD. For example if u have a 3.0 in biomedicine vs a 3.7 in general studies, the 3.0 benefits u more. Crazy huh? But it is the curriculum that really sets u apart from others competing.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Jun 13 at 2019 1:44 AM

2019-06-13T01:44:43-04:00

As I read what you'd sent, as with most others on here who ask similar quesrions, to answer you properly, at least to my way of thinking, it's help to know more...major(s), grades, GPAs, assoc before the bachelors, STEM coursework, specific subjects taken, non-STOP subjects...interests, hobbies, reading tastes, sports incl martial arts esp...also, what are your ultimate objects? Have you done any GAS flight training this far other than going up once in a helicopter? I gather that might be the case, as you mentioned your preference for aircraft...would you possibly want flight test pilot, nav/WSO, or engineer? Also, you need to consider nav/WSO, whether fixed or rotary wing, not solely helicopters, I understand you interest in rotary wing, you made that evident, however, how much fixed wing exposure have you had? Sport pilot? Private pilot? Glider? Instrument rating? Multiengine rating? commercial rating? The next thing is, whether you go warrant, or commissioned, you're gonna need to immediately start a master's part time minimum, anyone who tells you it's not reqd for warrant or commissioned on active, regardless of svc, has, I assure you, zero clue, honest...you're also gonna need to do PME, both Army, as well as other svcs, whether resident, or nonresident, for broadening purposes...you're gonna get tapped for addl duties, whether you're warrant or commissioned, junior/company grade officers council (CGOC), you're gonna need to be taught to suoervise, so ratings on enlisted, as well as others you'll eventually supervise, so, knowing your more fundamental as well as long term objects would help immensely suggest things for you...for a masters, what field would you want? Would you want a PhD? do you have research interests at all? What interests do you have in military history? Economics? Foreign affairs? Doo you want engineering? Comp sci? Aero engineering? Those are the kinds of things I always suggest those at your level to explain in detail, so all of us can gauge your mind, as well as your range of interests...also, being as you'd said you're IT ARNG now, what MOS are you? Is it aviation related? Non-aviation? I was Army ROTC before USAF OTS, so I've got a pretty decent idea of the normal Army ROTC curriculum...I wasn't prior enlisted, Guard, or Reserve, however, all of that info is germane to being able to answer you properly, as well as suggest possible paths, assignments, grad schools...e.g., have you looked at applying to USAF A FIT or Naval Postgrad School (NPS), which warrants and commissioned in all.svc s can apply to, incl Army? Have you looked at military Rhodes Scholar at all if you've got an adequate GPA? Are you going to take the genl and subj GRE? The GMAT? I'm asking you those things to make you look beyond the immediate goal of flight after commissioning or WOCS, that's all I'm saying...we had a family friend who's gone Army enlisted, got Army WOCS for rotary wing, got his bach in aviation at Ember Riddle, then Army released him, USCG picked him up, he finished his 20 yrs as a USCG O-3, I merely relate the story, as I thought you might find it of interest...would you possibly want to do exchange tours for flight with other svcs, or in allied countries? Those are the kinds of things in suggesting you think about, to try to consider longer-range objectives, that's all I'm saying, OK? I hope all that was of at least some use and/or interest, I'd be most eager to hear more, no rush, whenever you might have time to send more, of course....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2019 1:50 AM

2019-06-13T01:50:21-04:00

Being a Guard aviator requires A LOT more commitment than just one weekend a month and two weeks a year. Bear that in mind.

I’m in the uh-60 battalion in UT. I haven’t been here long but so far it seems like a decent place and you wouldn’t be begging for blade time.

They also have an Apache Battalion here and Lakota and Fixed wing detachments.

Response by CPT Brad Wilson made Jun 13 at 2019 2:15 AM

2019-06-13T02:15:28-04:00

Since you are in Utah I suggest you SMP with the 211th Aviation BDE And talk to the pilots both officer and warrant to see the different responsibilities for each. There also is an Apache BN and a Blackhawk BN in the state so you can see the difference there also Many of their pilots have been Active as well as Guard so they can help you determine which component you want to be in. Check with their flight surgeon to see what is involved in the flight physical and maybe take it if you can then you will know if you are physically able to be a pilot

Response by CW4 Robert C. made Jun 13 at 2019 7:21 AM

2019-06-13T07:21:59-04:00

I am biased in this as I am a Warrant Officer. Mind you I am not Aviation, but a Warrant Officer none the less. So I don't really think that it matters whether you "only" fly, because in today's Army, Warrant Officers are trained to do all tasks at hand. So you can bet you will do things other than flying. But as a Warrant Officer I believe that you will get more time flying. Just my thought on that. Like I said I am not Aviation but am biased towards being a Warrant Officer.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jun 13 at 2019 10:40 AM

2019-06-13T10:40:51-04:00

SPC Private RallyPoint Member If your goal was to fly and this was a deal breaker if you didn't at all, WOCS would be the route.

If youre ok with the CHANCE to branch aviation and maybe fly, ROTC would be the route.

Securing either a RA or AD Commission following a degree program and a short stint in the UT ARNG may not be a lock. It may be possible though to earn an RC Commission or a RC Warrant Appointment in Aviation and then transfer to AD, but that is contingent on open needs at the time you attempt it.

Warrant Officers may apply for OCS, so if you did become a warrant officer, the door doesn't close.....fully. You have to watch the age limits and medical requirements....because life happens while you are making plans. I know two people personally who went from being NCOs to Warrants (both technical fields) to commissioned officers via OCS. One was TMDE/Electronics Maintenance and became an OD officer and later a PhD and an executive at Raytheon. The other a 88K Watercraft Operator to 880A Marine Deck Officer to Transportation/LG Officer. He just entered the corporate world and is in Supply Chain and Logistics. This is definitely circuitous. It also increases the likelihood of retiring as a Graybeard Captain or possibly Major simply from a Time spent "getting somewhere" perspective and hitting 20years AFCS.

The other option which may still be viable, is to earn an Aviation Branch Commission and revert to CW2 as a Captain if flying is your bag. They used to do this often enough that it was a thing with a regulatory path. I would not recommend this route with vigor.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Jun 13 at 2019 3:06 PM

2019-06-13T15:06:15-04:00

OK, branch guidance I will leave to others. I enlisted Infantry, commissioned Infantry, branch transferred to the Engineers and really don't regret any of that. Will give a bit of advice on where you are now, some of which you seem to have a handle one, so I may be preaching to the choir. You are aware that being MOSQ exempts you from the first two years of ROTC. Since you will qualify for GI Bill as an enlisted Army National Guard, and most states offer educational kickers also, I would join ROTC as a non scholarship student and apply for the Simultaneous Membership Program with the Guard while in ROTC. That allows you to pull all you GI Bill and State Educational funds, you still drill with a Guard Unit, but you get paid as an E-5 and you don't lose any time in service. You get some extra experience that will help you at that all important Advanced Camp, you class position will help determine both where you get active duty and your choice of branches. You stated that you are already aware that Branch is always needs of the Army first. The mercenary side of staying Guard and SMP is that when you commission, you will be O-1 over 2 years, probably close to 3 years, where you Max out O-1 pay and make about $900 a month more than those with under 2 years.
I believe that you can apply for flight school and not be aviation branch, or at least they did when I was still active. A number of the Infantry Officers I went through IOBC with transferred over to Aviation.

Response by CPL Gary Pifer made Jun 13 at 2019 9:35 PM

2019-06-13T21:35:04-04:00

88M is an OJT MOS...I wouldn't waste the time.....and opportunity. If it's a career you want.....go for the best. And I agree with the 0-3 below...
hang out with the Eagles...ask questions ..ask for orientation flight time. Go on a 18 hour summertime desert transport truck mission...then compare.

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Jun 14 at 2019 3:36 AM

2019-06-14T03:36:39-04:00

The short answer to your question is: do you want to fly (a lot) or do you want to command an aviation unit. WO/CWOs fly a lot. That is their thing. Lieutenants & Captains Focus on commanding a unit, that's their thing, and sometimes they don't fly much. Majors, Lieutenant Colonels, and Colonels, pretty much fly the minimum required hours for an army aviator, which is less than 100 hours a month. I am an extreme example of an RLO not getting much flight time. In 20 years of flying I accumulated just 1000 hours. Yeah, sucks. Everything went wrong, including having all our flight hours taken away for Dessert Storm I, 10 months of no flying. So if you want to fly a lot and have fun, be a WO. If you want to see if you can lead, command, and someday command a battalion/squadron, be a RLO.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2019 10:32 PM

2019-06-18T22:32:34-04:00

To fly all the time you want to be a warrant officer. I had the same dilemma when i first commissioned.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2019 4:35 PM

2019-06-20T16:35:57-04:00

WOCS, hands-down. The officer side of the house varies widely, but it boils down to the same trends of “you don’t fly that much.” Unfortunately, that starts for some sooner than others, like myself, and I’m now vastly behind many peers in terms of flight experience who rolled a better die. WO’s have much better consistency with flight, even through CW3.

Response by CPT Alan Zahn made Sep 23 at 2019 10:57 AM

2019-09-23T10:57:54-04:00

Want to fly? Go Warrant... but the pre flying course is very arduous... lots of stress before you ever see an aircraft. Plus, during IERWAC, you will be under the same stress of the initial warrant training... a bit less, but still under the direction of the cadre. Trade off is warrants FLY... commissioned officers fly less, do more non flight details and the promotion pyramid is very limited in Aviation. When I was in Rucker as a commissioned officer, I flew with the warrant officer candidates. They were under much more stress than commissioned officers. Once back at my unit, I rarely flew drill weekends and my flying was pretty limited to AFTP’s. Good luck!