Running at the pace of the slowest person?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Nov 2014 21:38:05 -0500

Am I the only one who feels this is completely backward, asinine, counter productive, and a microcosm of everything thats plaguing our Military. Even as a young private I could never understand the logic. Since I left conventional Army this has not been an issue(thankfully so).

Even when I would be sucking and puffing in my early days, I knew it was MY personal responsibility to improve my run, which included running after work. It used to piss me off to no end knowing I"m busting my a$$ improving on my time, while we are here slowing up a moderate run pace to accommodate pvt "couldnt care" because he could honestly care less.. Your thoughts?

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 1:42 AM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 01:42:10 -0500

Now being a Sailor I was never a fan of the Army's forced fun group runs, but..... I agree with you with not having everyone slow down, but they should have someone with them, motivating them, I am not a fan of leaving anyone behind.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 2:01 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 02:01:59 -0500

I agree and disagree. I think it's what is trying to be accomplished during the run. Monday morning ability group runs should challenge everyone in the formation (I'm a fan of the release run for this), if someone if falling out I would (in my NCO days) either designate an NCO to push that Soldier or do it myself. Now, if we are talking a Friday "motivational" run then I say keep the group together, continue to push that Soldier, but keep in mind the purpose of the run.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 9:14 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 09:14:52 -0500

Its not about accommodating the slowest person its about the '"team" and we are only strong as our weakest link. Also it should be used to motivate the slowest person. That aside I understand where you are coming from especially if your unit decides to do alot of group runs.

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Nov 21 at 2014 9:20 AM

Cpl Glynis Sakowicz — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 09:20:57 -0500

Sometimes, its not the private who could care less, its the shortest people in the unit, with the shortest stride... so they don't end up a half mile behind the unit. Of course, that was the reason I was retired at the age of 28... For future reference, NEVER EVER slow down to navigate around a mud puddle on the track, when you have about thirty larger Marines behind you... and the sun hasn't come up yet. I ended up on the bottom of a 'pile on' and broke two vertabre, have three messed up discs, and went from 5'4 to 5'2...
Just ask if you can take charge of the run... and do it like you want to do it... we often changed things up for PT.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 9:30 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 09:30:02 -0500

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member put it perfectly...there is nothing on the battlefield not done as a team. Its about building teamwork.

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Nov 21 at 2014 11:04 AM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:04:43 -0500

I understand the team aspect as stated below. But i hated Battalion run days every week because we had to run with the slowest person it would kill my shins. It never seemed to motivate the slowest person or at least ours because that person never improved. But when we broke our runs down to company level and we then broke it down to a slow, medium, fast group. Those were great because they pushed you in each group.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 11:50 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:50:30 -0500

All excellent points gentleman... Im on break in class but will provide my thoughts when i get home.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 1:02 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:02:35 -0500

Is the slowest soldier in the formation trying to get better or just not giving a damn? Are you running every run like this? Once in a while, it is ok to run as a team at a pace that everyone can do, but most of the time you need to do PT that will help everyone improve their fitness.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Nov 21 at 2014 1:18 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:18:55 -0500

There are two types of group runs: Ability Group Runs (AGR) and Unit Cohesion Runs (UCR). AGR is intended for like ability runners to get the most out of their work out. These are the runs where you expect people to keep up or they don't belong. UCR is intended to build teamwork, bonding and morale (ie COHESION). Soldiers don't want to look weak in front of peers, and will put out effort to not fall out if they think their buddies give a crap about them. YOUR job as his battle buddy is to provide the motivation and encouragment for him not to give up. UCRs are not about "I'm a good runner so keep up, and if you can't you're a POS." It's "hey Battle, you're doing great! Keep those legs moving! I know you can do it!" THAT creates teamwork, cohesion and bonding.

Second, is it lack of motiviation or lack of ability? Lack of motivation is on the leadership to fix. But set's also be realisitic, no matter how hard some people train, there are never going to be as fast as people who have natural abilities and talents to do it. But that doesn't mean that they are worthless or that they aren't going to give 110%. Honestly, I'd rather have people who may not be the most gifted but I know will give me everything that they have than someone who is naturally talented, but doesn't try.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 1:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:21:48 -0500

During training and PT I fully endorse and support pushing soldiers to the max for building them to become better. Altering terrain and putting in a fantastic hill slows them down but only until they become proficient at it....how will they unless we do it?

Now,...due to requirements and timing chips, there are some reasons why going the pace of the slowest person is best. Take the "International Four Days Marches" of Nijmegen, Netherlands for instance (yes you can take a team there, I did the last 2 years): If any member of your team passes the electronic mat and gets read, then all team members must pass within 45 seconds of each other or all that did not are cut from the team. A real life example of why staying together is imperative albeit a not-so-dangerous one, 100 miles over 4 days is not something you want to lose your team mates on!

Response by SGT Richard H. made Nov 21 at 2014 1:29 PM

SGT Richard H. — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 13:29:17 -0500

In a perfect world, you run at the pace of the slowest man and keep increasing the pace, bringing him with you. That's how teams work.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 3:21 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 15:21:14 -0500

I have no problems with motivating them to keep up. I would even endorse assigning someone too pace him if he starts to fall back, but PT is an individual responsibility. My first squad leader told me "unit pt is too maintain. Your improvements are going come after work, when no one is looking". With that being said, if we are doing a team i can see slowing the pace a bit to let everyone catch a breather, reorganize, etc. But if joe is a quarter mile back, i dont see how hindering the whole team for one guy not cutting the mustard makes sense. Im sure most will not agree, and thats ok. However i want a self motivated, responsible team mate to surround myself with

P.S if i didnt already mention it, im referring to the Soldier that complains about running is too hard yet always has a baconator for lunch and a pack of Newports always near by.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2014 8:38 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Nov 2014 20:38:26 -0500

As a PLT SGT I schedule platoon level runs to build teamwork and motivate those soldiers who are not runners. However, I do brief them prior to the run that we will not go at a pace that could be considered walking because no improvement will be made from that. Furthermore, at least once a week we conduct ability group runs to allow my fast soldiers to go out and run as fast as they want. I always take the slower soldier and keep them together maintaining a suitable pace that would allow them to complete a 4-mile run in 36 minutes. At times this is very challenging because I have to speed up and slow down to be able to meet the 36 minute standard. Do we meet the standard every time? Absolutely not.

No for those soldier who continually show no concern to improve all I do is counsel them for failure to meet the unit standard of 4-milies in 36 minutes. I only counsel them if I have told them that we are conducting a 4-mile run for time in preparation for the unit 4-mile run. I also invite my soldiers to run on the weekends if they desire to improve. To no surprise nobody ever comes out to enjoy a run with the PLT SGT.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2014 9:09 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Nov 2014 21:09:35 -0500

Unit PT is about cohesion and morale building. If you have an extremely slow runner then it is the job of the NCO's in charge to monitor their physical fitness. The last thing you want to do in unit PT is leave someone behind...very counter productive to the whole military concept. At the same time i DO NOT believe in the ability group concept, i think that kind of PT keeps troops in their comfort zone and never improves them. Thats why you gotta have a good ole Marine Corps indian run lol

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 22 at 2014 9:13 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Nov 2014 21:13:51 -0500

SFC Private RallyPoint Member, I could not agree more. The absolute best PT I did - in 30.5 years of active duty - was when I was in the 82d Airborne Infantry (C Co, 1/504). Our 1SG would take us out and try to smoke us every day! And if a troop fell out ... well, there was an NCO in the rear of the formation who was taking names. Those who fell out got to re-assemble at 1630 for remedial PT. I felt really good being part of that unit, and that type of PT contributed to the feeling. It built esprit de corps like almost nothing else can (in peacetime).

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 4:34 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 04:34:30 -0500

SFC Private RallyPoint Member,

Does your PT leader know that unit formation runs should only occur once every 3 months? FM 7-22 paragraph 10-34 states that unit formation runs "should be performed no more than once per quarter due to the limited training effect offered for the entire unit." The other runs should be AGR (ability group runs), hill repeats, 60/120s, etc. See, even the FM agrees with you!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 5:38 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 05:38:10 -0500

At some point, that slowest person will indeed pick up the pace or find themselves gone. That is typically how it works so if we are talking about a formation run, a known team/unit building exercise then yes I feel you should. If you are running regularly anyways, that one run isn't going to kill your APFT score.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Dec 1 at 2014 6:13 AM

Sgt Packy Flickinger — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 06:13:20 -0500

It's really hard to run at an extremely slow pace. It's also counter productive to physical fitness and combat training. We need to take it like a test, 70% can keep up, 30% can't. It will push the rest harder. And the bottom 10% will need extra PT.

Response by SSG Courtney Ellis made Dec 1 at 2014 9:45 AM

SSG Courtney Ellis — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 09:45:11 -0500

Sgt Daniel Aldana I showed up at a unit and thought I was in great shape, then we went on our first run. I was that slow guy in the back and I felt it was my sole responsibility to improve myself in order to keep up. I ran after hours, on the weekends, and then I started to run all the time. There is a such thing as self accountability and I felt I needed to up my game. Well I got much better than would ever expected I would; and still run even in retirement, but yeah you can't always accommodate some people and yet we still have to think about pt that suites the unit as a whole. My 1SG said if want to be great you have to do your best every time, and give you all every time, not some of the time but all of the time!! By the way now I am known as that guy who runs all over base!!

Response by PFC Zanie Young made Dec 1 at 2014 10:15 AM

PFC Zanie Young — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 10:15:24 -0500

Considering I was one of the slowest people running cross-country and the fastest up a hill, I can more or less understand the frustration that fellow SMs have whenever I fell out. It wasn't because I didn't care (I have spent 2 weeks in in the FTC at Fort Jackson), I just wasn't built that way. However, I didn't want somebody making accommodations for me, it was on me to do whatever it took to improve my stamina while doing PT runs. That, and the Drill Sergeant motivating me along the way, helped me break that barrier.