Senior NCO females reclassing into Combat Arms?

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Nov 2013 06:24:05 -0500

My sister is reclassing into 12B (she is 12C currently) because opportunities have opened. I am very proud of her for making the switch, but do you feel it is fair to have female Senior NCO's reclass into Combat Arm fields where historically each promotion was based on holding certain positions. For example: Most Combat Arms MOS's must have rated time as team chief, section chief/sergeant, squad leader prior to making SFC. Do you think its fair to open up positions to females who have not served their time? I think female NCO's reclassing to Combat Arms should have to complete an SLC for that specific CMF. What do you think?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2013 7:18 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Nov 2013 07:18:54 -0500

12B is almost the same MOS as 12C so it should not be an issue for her. Males have done this in the past as well.

There are lots of Females who will do very well in the Combat arms and I wish them luck.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Nov 28 at 2013 8:56 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Thu, 28 Nov 2013 08:56:41 -0500

Personally, I do not that this should be allowed, due to the reasons you listed, a lack of experience in lower lever positions for said MOS. While book knowledge can be taught and hopefully learned and retained, it is not the same as having the practical hands-on experience of having been in the corresponding lower levels of leadership. As a Tanker, yes you can learn fire commands as a TC, but if you have never been a gunner or experienced tank gunnery as a junior enlisted tank crewman, you have no experience to build on to assist in your crew hitting targets and qualifying. Same with tactics and the manuevering aspect, unless you have served as a TC within a tank platoon, how can you as a PSG mentor and train your PL to be successful? Now, when/if they actually enlist females into the 11/13/19 series' that had previously been unavailable to them, and they grow and progress through the ranks as males do/have, then there would be no issues. But I do not feel that SR NCO females should be authorized to reclass.

Response by CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. made Nov 28 at 2013 9:12 AM

CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. — Thu, 28 Nov 2013 09:12:31 -0500

I am actually very surprise the Army is allowing SNCOs to reclass at the SFC level. After completing SLC and ALC, I would think the Army would find the retraining on top of the investment on prior training a poor investment.

While the whole thing is really machts nichts, I guess I would hope the motivation for allowing reclass at that SNCO level is really driven by numbers and not political messaging.

Response by SPC Matthew Birkinbine made Nov 28 at 2013 10:17 AM

SPC Matthew Birkinbine — Thu, 28 Nov 2013 10:17:18 -0500

The way I see it from my perspective is a Sr. NCO is just that, a Sr. NCO. If you get up that high, you should have the tactical and technical qualifications to succeed at any level.

Seniors should have the adaptability to learn from juniors and the intestinal fortitude to lean on junior leaders for whatever their experiences are, much the way a 2LT or 1LT leans on his/her senior NCO's experience. Just because one has earned the rank, in any mos, does not mean s/he is the supreme, all knowing, leader of all. A Senior NCO should be able to draw from the strengths and weaknesses of anyone in their charge.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2014 12:47 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 12:47:56 -0500

I think if Females NCO's are being sent through AIT at least.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2014 2:08 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 14:08:40 -0500

SSG Moore, no it's not fair, but it is necessary according to the way the Army is going about providing support for lower enlisted females who will be reclassing to a combat arms MOS.

From what I read, the Army is requiring that there be one or more female senior NCOs in every combat unit that has lower enlisted females.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2014 11:32 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 23:32:45 -0500

Changing MOS with rank on your chest means you go into that new MOS behind the power curve. We had a SSG come to our unit back in the 90s and he just reclassed. Like most MOS' the AIT only taught you the basics. With our MOS it would take 2 years to be technically proficient in the MOS.

The issue was everyone expected the SSG to have tons of MOS experience and be able to run the shop. Of course he couldn't and it soon became apparent that the power curve was too great for him and he quit trying so hard.

I believe reclassing as a senior Leader should be evaluated and if it continues maybe there should be an additional class to attend to bring you up to your MOS speed concurrent with your rank.

Response by SSG Robert Blum made Feb 27 at 2014 12:02 PM

SSG Robert Blum — Thu, 27 Feb 2014 12:02:43 -0500

SFC Moore, Is it required for a Male Soldier to attend the NCOES for his new MOS if he has already completed that same level of NCOES in his previous MOS?  Last I heard that was not the case and please correct me if I'm wrong. Yea there's going to be a learning curve for the reclassing Soldier. Everyone has a leader, and every leaders responsibility is to train and develop his/her subordinates, and they may want to pay close attention to a Reclass as they may have many questions.  1SG Haro I believe AIT is a requirement for reclassification to be awarded an MOS regardless of your rank. The point of allowing females into combat arms is equal treatment of the sexes across the Army. If a Male is not required to do something then a Female should not be required to and vice versa.  

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2014 7:16 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Mar 2014 07:16:39 -0400

I agree that they should complete SLC if reclassing

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2014 11:07 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 26 Mar 2014 11:07:10 -0400

I believe that for this integration of females into historically male CMFs to work... there is going to need to be Female Senior Enlisted soldiers make the transition first. If a SFC has done her time in her current CMF IOT attain her current rank, then it should be transferable across the board (in theory). These female Senior Leaders are gonna be paramount to get us knuckledraggers up to speed on female standards. It's gonna be a painful transition as all change is, but I believe it is a good and necessary one. As it pertains to your sister and SLC, 12B and 12C SLCs are combined, so her being brought up to speed should be a non-issue.

I believe how the Army will start to integrate Females will start at the training level. The thought is, Outfit OSUT companies with Female Drill Sergeants. They will be Drill Sergeants through the BCT phase of training and when the cycle reaches the AIT portion the DS becomes a trainee and then is ultimately awarded that secondary CMF. This will help in augmenting Female Senior Leaders.

Response by CW2 Jonathan Kantor made Apr 11 at 2014 11:49 AM

CW2 Jonathan Kantor — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 11:49:06 -0400

I agree... but first, congratulations to your sister! I think it's awesome that combat arms MOSs have been opened to women and I think it's about 238 years overdue but I'm glad it has finally happened.

You make a lot of sense regarding SLC. since I am not Combat Arms, I really don't know the difference. When I went through ANCOC, I found it to be a massive waste of my time. I don't know how they compare though so I can't make a determination.

Regardless, I don't know how effective it will be to go to MOS training and then to SLC without first going through WLC and ALC. Stacking that much training would muddy the waters anyways so I wouldn't recommend it. Hard to say... She is already an NCO and has earned her rank. Has she been to her NCOES schools already? If she has, I say no, but she could benefit from some online training. If she hasn't, she should go to the NCOES school for her new MOS.

Response by SFC Craig Dalen made Apr 11 at 2014 12:54 PM

SFC Craig Dalen — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 12:54:36 -0400

Being a senior NCO really doesn't mean that she shouldn't have to have completed these jobs. I agree that they should attend SLC for that MOS but they shouldn't be held back from something they couldn't control. As long as they can ensure that the unit gains from their experiences and become a better unit.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Sep 17 at 2014 5:41 PM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Wed, 17 Sep 2014 17:41:44 -0400

I thought the 12 series are Engineers, Combat Support. I was taught that the Combat Arms are Infantry, Artillery (both branches) and Armor (to include Cavalry).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 2:31 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 14:31:54 -0500

Again its not about making our forces more lethal or survive on the battlefield. Its about being political correct.

I would not recommend male NCOs re-classing into Combat Arms from Combat Support or Combat Service and Support MOS's.

Those NCO's are going to way behind the power curve. Heck I would behind the power curve if I went to Mech Infantry, as almost all my time has been in Airborne Inf & LRS. Going to a Inf or Armor from a CS/CSS MOS.....incredibly diservice to those NCOs and the troops they will have to lead.

Response by CSM Carl Cunningham made Sep 6 at 2015 5:40 PM

CSM Carl Cunningham — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 17:40:01 -0400

I am interested to know what your sister's thoughts are MSG Private RallyPoint Member , especially now that she has made the transition?

Response by SPC Michael Mullins made Apr 22 at 2016 10:46 PM

SPC Michael Mullins — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 22:46:00 -0400

I think that they are fully qualified because the position of senior leaders is to mentor leaders, I do however think there will be a sharp learning curve and she will probably have at least a little bit of a hard time establishing herself in the position as her soldiers may have a difficult time accepting that she is in that position.

Response by SFC Carey Cox made Apr 23 at 2016 9:10 AM

SFC Carey Cox — Sat, 23 Apr 2016 09:10:54 -0400

No it's not. She has no experience in combat. If I was a subordinate I would question every decision she made. I don't agree with woman in combat arms to begin with. This is Obamas way of destroying the army. Don't believe just look at the number of high ranking officers that "resigned" under him compared to other presidents. He has forced or removed any officer that stood up to him or didn't agree with his mentality.

Response by MSG Frank Kapaun made Apr 27 at 2019 11:44 AM

MSG Frank Kapaun — Sat, 27 Apr 2019 11:44:27 -0400

Total bullshit, women have no place whatsoever in the combat arms branches.

Response by Maj John Bell made Apr 27 at 2019 2:43 PM

Maj John Bell — Sat, 27 Apr 2019 14:43:08 -0400

At this time in history, fair has little to do with anything. I cannot speak for the US Army, nor even the present day Marine Corps, but in my day most of the Flag grade officers came from the combat arms, and those that didn't tended to top out at two stars. 1stSgts and Sgts Major were almost exclusively from combat arms, and I'm pretty sure that female 1stSgts and Sgts Major were rarer than purple unicorns. The powers that be are trying to fix that.

My beef with that fix is not women serving in combat arms MOS's or transitioning. Either men and women in the service are the same, in every way, or they are not. When serving in a combat arm is compulsory, not optional, for women... things will be equal. When physical standards are the same... things will be equal. When recruits regardless of sex train in the same units, sleep in the same squad bay, shower in the same shower bay, crap in the same head, etc. etc. etc. things will be equal. Until then this is playing house.

Is it fair to have a SSgt(USMC)/SFC that has never trained at a non-illuminated night attack, because he or she has been a supply NCO their entire time in the service, as the 2nd position in the rifle plt. For that matter is it fair to have a PltLdr who was a civilian a year ago in the 1st position? We should probably completely re-examine the entire leadership path. Not that I want to give the French credit for anything, but at least in the Foreign legion even Lts are NCO's. Above that leadership paths diverge

Combat Arms Officer,
non Combat Arms Officer
Combat Arms Senior SNCO
non combat Arms SNCO
permanent junior NCO

The next symmetrical conventional war that Soldiers, Sailor, Marines, and Airmen fight in, there will be those on the front lines, in the trenches, who will not be afforded the luxury of privacy and gender accommodation. What is fair then?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 27 at 2019 5:42 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 27 Apr 2019 17:42:48 -0400

She will be at a technical and tactical disadvantage.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2019 8:32 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 27 Apr 2019 20:32:13 -0400

I don’t agree with it but I do understand it. From a tactical standpoint I don’t feel it is efficient, but I would imagine the powers that be wanted there to be senior leadership. If I were a female and I had no female NCOs to look up to or go to with problems I would feel a certain way. Maybe some perceived prejudice even if there wasn’t any.

Response by CPT William Jones made Jul 20 at 2020 2:17 AM

CPT William Jones — Mon, 20 Jul 2020 02:17:16 -0400

I think any senior NCO should have to meet all requirements for a position they want to transfer into. However since they were blocked from certain MOS until now maybe they should set up some sort of training for them to attend. Sort of a retread course. From 3 weeks to about 6 months should work. Course shouldbe open to all Sr NCO wanting to switch

Response by SGT Gregory Cole made Jul 20 at 2020 7:28 PM

SGT Gregory Cole — Mon, 20 Jul 2020 19:28:07 -0400

Heck no. Why would I look to someone who has 0 experience in my job field to provide guidance on issues they know nothing of? How are they going to be something lower enlisted look up to and strive to be if they have less knowledge on the MOS than a private does? Definitely bad for business. If they were in that field from the get go then it is cool.

Response by CPT William Jones made Aug 8 at 2021 7:20 PM

CPT William Jones — Sun, 08 Aug 2021 19:20:57 -0400

If the militarywantss Females and males to freely work in all MOS,s there only needs to be one set of rules to qualify or change among other things. One set of rules,regs and qualafications. A servive member either makes the grade or doesnt. A simple but good example is hair. I have seen males with long hair and females with very short hair and very long hair and much inbetween. There is no reason to have more than one set of rules. On the outside mixed styles are common and unisex. As for anything else set the requirements and everyone that can qualify can do the job If being transfered to a different Job requires the soldier to have done certain things before moving on everyone has to do the same stuff to be changed. One Army equals one set of rules. They had this same sort of problems with race qualified people. Solution was to mixe all males at the time and just test on thr requirements. It seems to have worked out pretty well.