Should a 4-year degree be a requirement for selection to E-9?

2013-11-23T23:33:38-05:00

With the military moving to a leaner, agile and more educated force, should it's top leaders be required to have a baccalaureate <span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: small; line-height: 15px; white-space: nowrap;">degree prior to selection or prior to promotion?</span>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2013 11:39 PM

2013-11-23T23:39:42-05:00

MSG(P) Quick,

Given the nature of the modern armed forces, I believe that it should be a requirement for promotion to Master Sergeant for an associates degree and a bachelors degree for promotion to Sergeant Major. However, these should be in the form of institutional schooling, such as the kind that field grade and flag officers receive. Given that self development is absolutely critical, I also acknowledge that in some jobs, in some fields, not everyone has the time to get their associates and/or bachelors degree in their free time, depending on their rate of promotion.

As such, the First Sergeants Academy should be an associate degree producing course as a minimum, preferably a bachelors degree at some point and the Sergeant's Major Academy should be accredited for graduates to receive a bachelors degree at a minimum, then eventually a Master's Degree once all of the kinks have been worked out.

Response by CSM Mike Maynard made Nov 23 at 2013 11:45 PM

2013-11-23T23:45:42-05:00

Absolutely not. <div><br></div><div>While pursuing a degree does increase your critical thinking and communication skills, having a degree does not always equate into being a "better" E9 and is not a great predictor of E9 potential.</div><div><br></div><div>So many of our Soldiers are being steered toward colleges that transfer vast amounts of credit from Army experience to get them closer to getting a degree. That being the case, they are basically getting a degree for their Army experience.</div><div><br></div><div>But isn't the the point of going to college to introduce you to a different way of learning and different ideas?</div><div><br></div><div>So, for most that take advantage of all the "Army experience" credits, I would say your degree is worth less than those that earned their degree without the "Army experience" credits.</div>

Response by WO1(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 12:34 AM

2013-11-24T00:34:04-05:00

I would have to say YES, because
if you choose to excel in an area of your chosen i.e. becoming an E-9 I feel it
truly shows discipline, a Bachelor or Master's degree is an impressive addition
to your educational armor. A two-year Associate's degree demonstrates a
proficiency in the level of your education, but a Bachelor or Master's degree
indicates a level of expertise in a specific area of study. I feel that the
military nowadays should require a four-year degree at minimum for at E-8.
I feel that having a 4 year degree or higher to your credit could or will only make the selection process
that much more advantageous in your favor as well as help you advance up the
career ladder more easily. Lastly, keep this in mind that if you want to keep
yourself more marketable and your training skills more current, a four year or
an advanced degree may be just what you need.

Response by SFC James Baber made Nov 24 at 2013 12:43 AM

2013-11-24T00:43:24-05:00

I didn't start on my degree until retirement, it may have hindered me, but with the optempo I was involved in over most of my career, not sure I ever really had the time, or it might have taken me over 10 years to complete that 4 year degree. Retrospect, wish I had done it sooner though.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 12:17 PM

2013-11-24T12:17:31-05:00

MSG(P) Quick and MSG Cunningham,

You learn something new every day. Was it replaced?

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 4:07 PM

2013-11-24T16:07:31-05:00

I think if we are to make this a requirement, the Army has to allow them to take a year-18 months in order to do it, like they do Captains post command. Not all MOSs afford you the opportunity to leave the field to do college. As a young infantryman, I would do 3 week field problems. So I really didn't start college I til I was a SSG. With deployments back to back to back from 01-08, I had to put my degree on hold. I could not do college overseas at a small FOB or COP. I was finally able to complete my degree last year WHILE I was in the Sergeants Major Academy. I think some college is acceptable, but how much is up for debate, unless the Army puts in the mechanisms to allow this to happen.

Response by Capt Ed Yong made Nov 24 at 2013 4:50 PM

2013-11-24T16:50:16-05:00

It doesn't hurt to have education. It actually helps the person in the long run both professionally and privately. Of course, you should get educated in a viable degree that you can use not just anything to say you have a degree. Officers must have a masters to get past major. It can be a pain trying to make time for an education. However, it does reflect on the person an their ambition and drive to be better at what they do. Since the military supports through tuition assistance and the GI Bill, take advantage of those programs. When you retire and start a 2nd career, you'll be glad you took care of your education.

Response by SGT(P) Kyle B. made Nov 24 at 2013 5:11 PM

2013-11-24T17:11:39-05:00

well, most Soldiers already have to get a 4 year degree just to make points to become an E-5. so i say yes. they should have one if many of their subordinates are required to do so for promotion already.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 5:31 PM

2013-11-24T17:31:01-05:00

Is our job in the military to train, fight and win wars or go to college? My issue as I stated before is that this requirement is not realistic for every job. Even with the draw down, I find it hard to believe everyone will be able to do this, and not by any fault of their own. I have my degree, because I nickel and dimed my classes for 10 years between deployments, field problems and schools. I finished in the SGM Academy. So I know how hard I worked to make it happen. I reported to USASMA at 17 years in. So I took 3 course per semester at the academy to finish before graduation. So I was in class until 2200 every night. It was rough. I think we are asking to set a precedent which is unrealistic. I commend those who got their degrees as a specialist because you were able to get special exception to leave the field to go to night school, but a young infantryman is, for the most part, not given permission to leave the field to go to school. I think as enlisted soldiers, we need to focus on being the best NCOs we can be. Be, know and do. I think it should be used as one of those discriminators, but making it mandatory will force individuals to focus on college and not their job which is training Americas sons and daughters the skills necessary to survive in combat.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 5:31 PM

2013-11-24T17:31:03-05:00

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 5:55 PM

2013-11-24T17:55:38-05:00

Yes. As an Army Reserve SGM and civilian teacher, I have a B.A. (history/poli sci), a M.Ed., and a post-grad certificate in educational administration. I am currently enrolled in the Sergeants Major Course and the introductory courses are currently designed for someone who has, at best, an associates degree. By the time a Soldier hits the E8/9 mark, they should be able to write and understand basic writing/grammar/English. I am "re-learning" all this at the expense of learning topics that I really want and need to learn. Learning to write at the high school level is not a great use of my time.

Plus, educations makes everyone a critical thinker; provides experience outside of the regular Army thinking; and exposes one to so much more than just regular Army/military courses. I personally think schools should grant almost an entire degree simply on your experiences in the military.

My two cents...

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 6:05 PM

2013-11-24T18:05:56-05:00

As an educator, a Reserve SGM, and someone who has an M.Ed. and a post-grade certificate in educational administration, I would say that definitely having a B.A. or B.S. should be required. By the time a Soldier makes E8/9 they have had long enough to earn a degree. I believe that a education not only makes you better prepared for new things but also helps one to experience new ways to learn and comprehend the broader world versus the narrow way of the military. And, it makes you more marketable once you decide to retire. Your Army experience may look nice once you retire but I know for a fact that companies are looking for civilian education, too.

Is it hard to get one? Yes. Does it take time and commitment? Absolutely. But, in today's world, it is absolutely critical to have an education beyond high school. And, I don't think colleges should grant credit for military experience. Go out and learn something that interests you beyond just the military. It will help you no matter what area you choose and which branch you serve in. If you want to get promoted, get a degree. It's not the 1960's anymore where a Soldier could get by with a high school diploma, GED or even no degree.

Just my two cents...

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 6:22 PM

2013-11-24T18:22:42-05:00

I do not feel that it should be a requirement but given the draw down I highly recommend everyone officer and enlisted to pursue all the civilian education they can and still maintain the standards required for their Army profession. It will most definately be a disqualifier for promotion at some point and to think otherwise is just setting yourself up for failure. On another note all together everyone seems to think that officers are given masters degrees for breathing that is anything but the truth. Those in the Army who pursue masters degrees while at Army schools are putting in a full day of work at their army level education and then going to school 3-4 nights a week for almost a year. After that year most still have a few classes they need to take. It takes a toll on their family and social lives but is something many are willing to do to improve themselves as a person, a professional and as a leader...

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 6:56 PM

2013-11-24T18:56:29-05:00

I don't think it should be a requirement but should still fall in the plus-neutral-negative category. If you got one, its a plus, associates neutral, anything less is a minus. I understand it may be a difficult pursuit but it is feasible. It makes you a better Soldier and Leader.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 7:22 PM

2013-11-24T19:22:29-05:00

I agree with CSM Maynard on this. It is an excellent thing to have but not necessarily mean competency in their career field or in management.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 8:18 PM

2013-11-24T20:18:54-05:00

I am in the same boat now.. well kinda. I am getting looked at this year for the SFC Promotion Board. I am so glad we have websites for this, so I ask all you Senior NCO's and more importantly you Command Sergeants Majors out there. Who do you promote, do you promote the SSG who has no college what so ever on his ERB, or do you promote the SSG who has lets say 15-30 college credits, buts its from one of those fly by night, pay me $200.00 and I will roll all your military education into a piece of paper to help with promotion. I am currently a Drill Sergeant in a BCT unit and it is HARD to do college here. I believe as a Leader my biggest contribution to our Army at my level is to train, and lead Soldiers. I feel I am best qualified to do so based on my Deployment Experiences and my "MILITARY" education. The best Platoon Sergeant I ever had did not have any college, but he had experience, and was with us all the time, in the conex, in the field, and taught us out of FM's, and showed us how to be Soldiers and leaders. Never did college come into play. You may say, well your just lazy, but after 10 plus years at war with 39 months in Iraq, then going to the required Military Schools, NCOES, and JRTC/NTC Rotations, the DS Duty... I truly have to ask myself If I will ever get around to taking college in the next 12-18 months myself. I am already halfway into my career, and I feel like im that next generation of CSM. So In response to this discussion, I feel like it should be based on the Total Soldier, Leader, NCOER, Schools, and background of said leader, with college being a factor but not a requirement.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 8:18 PM

2013-11-24T20:18:57-05:00

This almost sounds like pre-req's to be an officer. Yes a degree makes you a more well rounded person but it doesnt soley define you
as a leader.

Response by SGT(P) Kyle B. made Nov 24 at 2013 8:38 PM

2013-11-24T20:38:52-05:00

points guy. 998 points is a degree. smartass.

Response by 1SG William Kaczmarek made Nov 24 at 2013 8:45 PM

2013-11-24T20:45:38-05:00

No! Not unless you have the SM Academy confer one in Military Science on graduates!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 10:25 PM

2013-11-24T22:25:41-05:00

To be fair I don't think a BA makes you a better person or leader.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 10:28 PM

2013-11-24T22:28:32-05:00

There are many benefits to continuing your education. The Army actually has an awesome pamphlet out there called the Army Learning Concept for 2015 and it touches on some of the benefits of having life long learners in the force. As to the benefit, you will be a better leader and a better tactician through furthered education. Our biggest job as NCOs and Sr. NCOs is to take care of our people to include advising and aiding our officers by ensuring they understand the 1st, 2nd and third order effects of their decisions. Your furthering your education will assist you in thinking critically and providing the best advice to ensure the quality of life and safety for your men and women. I am in the Air Force however, I have worked joint almost my entire career. As for your advancement I think anything you can do to differentiate yourself from your counterparts in a positive way is a good thing. As for making it a must that is definitely not. Mission should and must always be the number one priority. I would like to see our services start opening up degree programs for our Sr. Enlisted through the service schools i.e. Army War College or the Air Command and Staff College. I hope that helps your line of thought.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 10:35 PM

2013-11-24T22:35:50-05:00

If you get a degree in underwater basket weaving it means just that... Jack and shit, I have had LT's with degrees in fashion and they were shit.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 10:35 PM

2013-11-24T22:35:58-05:00

If you get a degree in underwater basket weaving it means just that... Jack and shit, I have had LT's with degrees in fashion and they were shit.

Response by SSG Laureano Pabon made Nov 24 at 2013 10:44 PM

2013-11-24T22:44:30-05:00

I remember back during my tour at Ft. Benning, there was a rumor of requiring all NCO's to be Ranger qualified and have a min of 2 years of college. I don't think that went through, but I see that an education still remains as a requirement.

I figure that if I were still in the service and were required to get a 4 year degree to make E-9, I would go OCS or WOC instead.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2013 10:56 PM

2013-11-24T22:56:44-05:00

My
parents dissuaded me from enlisting out of high school. They were
right--it probably would have killed me. Instead I did the only thing I
was suited for at the time. I went to college. While there, I grew
up, I grew physically (late bloomer), and
I wised up. The same day I completed my degree, I walked to the
recruiter's office and enlisted. I was 24. 6 Years made a lot of
difference. My point is that enlisting at 18 was not a good choice for
me. For others, like my younger brother, it's exactly the right thing
to do. To this day he still doesn't have a degree. He's also the first
person any of us in our civilian profession, that know him, turn to for
advice or an IT problem. I made it though my first deployment in the
secure knowledge that he'd answer the satellite phone and help me out.

Leaders
lead. It doesn't matter what their rank, their title, their position,
or their education. Real leaders can't be stopped from leading--it's
what they are and it's what they do. Choosing any kind of criteria for
leaders is pretty arbitrary. We can choose traits, behaviors, and
achievements that tend to help us identify those people, but we need to
be easy with the waivers for those people who don't check those blocks
but clearly are leaders anyway. The trick is to identify the natural
leaders and shape that and to provide the opportunities for those that
can learn leadership to develop.

In
1942, the US Army would not let the color-blind be commissioned
officers. My grandfather (the reason that I am color-blind) was
severely color-blind. He annoyed and pestered his chain of command
until they let him take the Officer's Candidate Battery. He told them
that they had nothing to loose--he had only completed the 6th grade, how
well could he do? He blew the test away. Between that and learning
that the color-blind have advantages in observing people and objects
under camouflage, they awarded him a commission, and ultimately changed
the rule.

For
me, becoming an officer would be the same kind of mistake that
enlisting at 18 would have been. Not that I lack anything, but that I'd
be miserable. I don't want to be the guy that sends the guy to solve
the problems. I want to be the guy who teaches others to be sent to
solve the problems.

So.
If they want to make this a rule, I don't have a problem with it--I can
see where they come from. But if they do it, I say they have to be
willing to allow either an alternative path (such as an examination) or a
relatively easy waiver process for the requirement.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 4:56 AM

2013-11-25T04:56:08-05:00

<p>I do not think that I should have to get a degree just to get to the level of NCO that I want to be. I keep hearing people say that it proves you are well rounded. Why do I have to have college to be well rounded. I cant LEARN other ways; I cant gain knowledge without getting a college degree. I am very well rounded and very smart. I don't need a civilian degree to say that. I also hear a lot of people going on and on about how it sets you up for when you get out of the Army. I understand that I will not be in the Army forever but what good am I to the force if I spend all my time preparing to get out. I have a job; nay a career. I don't need to pursue another one for 26 more years. </p><p> </p><p>I don't want to go to college. I have tried (and failed) it is not for me . It does not interest me in any way. Put me in any Army school, NCOES, course or other military learning establishment and I excel. Top of the class with honors. Because I want to be there it is worth it to me. But force me to go to college and you have lost me. I know that this is the world we live in now and I will get college because I will need it but I shouldn't have to. </p><p> </p><p>A few people on here already said it well. I should be spending my time working with my Soldiers, checking on my Soldiers, training, leading, and mentoring my Soldiers. As it is now I don't get home most nights till 1900, hour or so with the kids, hour or so with the wife, do some counseling's, write an SOP, put together a sergeants time training class, do SSD and then bed time. Why should I have to add to that.</p><p> </p><p>I had an E5 down range running one of my help desks that was so worried about his college classes he would stay at the help desk till 1 or 2 in the morning doing homework. Then he would be late for work almost everyday. I didn't find out about this till his Soldiers came forward saying that they were being counseled for being minutes late for work when he was hours late everyday.  What a well rounded NCO. If only I had that kind of commitment to college. </p><p> </p><p>I commend those of you with degrees and college aspirations. But why do I have to get one just cause you have one. Cant I just be an NCO and learn, grow and educate myself in the filed I am in now.</p>

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 8:00 AM

2013-11-25T08:00:43-05:00

No; what should be required is competence. I think we need a re-hack on how to promote and manage things. Degree requirements are nice to weed out some of the pool; but it doesn't work as well as it used to and honestly many of the graduates aren't too impressive. We need to get back into the hard work of looking really close at our applicants and selecting the best characters.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 10:09 AM

2013-11-25T10:09:31-05:00

Oh Hell No! <div><br></div><div>We need NCO's with backbone and common sense. We have too many "toadies" practicing reflective belt leadership worrying about their next assignment instead of taking care of Joes and insuring that we have a combat ready force. </div><div><br></div><div>The business of the Army is controlled application of violence. Not getting ready for your civilian career, bitching about soldiers with their hands in their pockets when its 20 degrees out, or patting soldiers on the back calling them "warriors" when they unfit and can't fight their way out of a paper bag. </div><div><br></div><div>A E-9 should be a tough, combat-experianced, mean SOB who instills respect and little bit of fear.  SGM Don Purdy (ret.) is good example! Sadly I see allot of weakness in today's SGMs.<br><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 10:13 AM

2013-11-25T10:13:31-05:00

Oh Hell No! <div><br></div><div>We need NCO's with backbone and common sense. We have too many "toadies" practicing reflective belt leadership worrying about their next assignment instead of taking care of Joes and insuring that we have a combat ready force. </div><div><br></div><div>The business of the Army is controlled application of violence. Not getting ready for your civilian career, bitching about soldiers with their hands in their pockets when its 20 degrees out, or patting soldiers on the back calling them "warriors" when they unfit and can't fight their way out of a paper bag. </div><div><br></div><div>A E-9 should be a tough, combat-experianced, mean SOB who instills respect and a little bit of fear. The ideal SGM should literally have common sense coming out his pores. SGM Don Purdy (ret.) is good example! Sadly I see allot of weakness in today's SGMs.</div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 1:04 PM

2013-11-25T13:04:39-05:00

No.<br><br>I would like to know how a four year degree in a civilian
field such as Liberal Arts or English prepares a Senior NCO to manage a
unit. This would be nothing more than an arbitrary requirement put forth
by individuals who already have a degree to take the focus off of
actual military experience and shift it to something irrelevant.<br><br>Succeeding in the scholastic environment does not mean that you are fit to be a leader. It should not be used as a measuring tool to put you ahead of your peers simply because they focused their time and energy more on soldier skills while you had the free time to take college courses.<br><br>Earning your degree is great and I support it. It makes you more relevant in the civilian field when you transition out of the army. I do not agree with or condone any practice of requiring a degree to be a senior NCO though.<br>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 1:18 PM

2013-11-25T13:18:15-05:00

Nope!! I think the availability of short-cut degrees takes away the value of a degree. For instance, instead of me going through a no-name school to get a degree that's pretty much based off of ALC/SLC and military training, I'm going after a degree from the University of Alabama. Should I be held back from promotion because I'm taking the extra time and paying out of pocket to pursue a real degree? I would hope not. And with the changes to TA only paying for ONE degree, we have to be careful about the degree we get. Promotion board members are going to have to stop looking at NCOs without a degree as "lazy" or as someone who doesn't care about advancement because a lot of us are pursuing degrees, we are just taking the extra time and putting in the effort to get a degree that matters.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 1:47 PM

2013-11-25T13:47:23-05:00

Im an E4. I recently went up for a yearly award. Me and this other guy were pretty much the same when it came to work performance, volunteering, and overall good "whole airman" concept. His packaged looked slightly better than mine. Why? becuase while I am only perusing my bachelors degree, he has finished his and is now working on his masters. I had no problem losing to him, he had the better package. My point is, when two people are generally the same and one has the degree and one doesn't the decision is obvious. To be honest, when my generation starts to work up the senior NCO ranks, the standard will be even higher than a four year degree.

Response by CMC Robert Young made Nov 25 at 2013 2:03 PM

2013-11-25T14:03:16-05:00

MSG, I have mixed feelings about this topic. I earned my bachelor's and first master's degrees by taking advantage of the military educational assistance. It's been good for me, and I am happy to have the education I have; however, so much of what we do in the military (particularly as enlisted members) is very technical in nature not requiring degree granting educational programs but requiring specific vocational training. Most of us by the time we are E5/6s have a pretty good handle on what our chosen craft is while at the same developing the leadership skills required to motivate other people. We tend to be very operationally proficient and task oriented. In the field that works as it should. As long as we continue our professional development in such a way that we stay abreast of changes to our work environment, we should be good to go. But consider the E9s who serve as advisors regarding enlisted work force issues to the flag officers. The USCG assigns a command master chief (CMC) to every flag office staff in the service to ensure that the enlisted work force's issues are heard. The process is extremely competitive, and those who succeed in selection are the cream of the crop. My observation from reading the bios of a large number of the current CMCs in the Coast Guard is that in addition to exceptional career histories they all have at least fours year of college if not more. Educational bios include degrees in strategic studies, work force development, government, business management, and a host of other topics which are very relevant in the policy development and strategic planning arena. In the flag environment, the topics are far more varied; far reaching, and complex because at the flag level even small decisions tend to produce second, third and fourth order effects. I have a good friend (a CMC) who works for a three star, and the conversations we have about things in that world baffle me in their scope. As an advisor to the senior leadership of our services, it's very hard to speak with the level of insight; situational intelligence; and creditability to make an impact without some significant academic achievement. In our daily professional world of work, does the degree help? Maybe; maybe not depending on your MOS/Rate. It certainly helps develop you personally particularly for life after the military, but if we are just checking the box without some consideration of what the degree we earn, and how we will apply it, there may not be much value to having a degree solely for the sake of having a degree. What if we all majored in music theater? Would we be as qualified for E9 as the people who majored in organizational dynamics?

Response by SGT Thomas Sullivan made Nov 25 at 2013 2:38 PM

2013-11-25T14:38:15-05:00

I do not feel it is necessary for a Commissioned Officer to have a Bachelor's degree, let alone an e-8/e-9. In effect showing that I do not feel it is necessary for anyone in the military to really have a "degree" from a university. Does it help? Yes. Will it necessarily make someone a better soldier? I see plenty of LT's coming out with 4 year degrees, and they are still effectively children. Expecting a man approaching or in his 40's who has possibly lead upwards of 100-2000 soldiers to learn much of anything from a basic undergraduate degree is ridiculous.

Universities were established originally to prepare land owning gentleman's children prepare for the world while still not being involved in it. Not much has changed with that sense of entitlement most private school undergrads receive upon graduation. I think proving they are worthy of selection to E-8/E-9 and time in service should more than cover the "must haves" for any soldier from the military's perspective.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 4:09 PM

2013-11-25T16:09:38-05:00

Bachelor degrees are required for promotion to O3. It shouldn't be mandated for promotion to E9 - you might as well promote an E8 with a bachelor's degree straight to O3.

That said, education is a good thing to pursue. But I don't think it should be mandated for enlisted promotions.

Response by 1SG Gene Wood made Nov 25 at 2013 4:22 PM

2013-11-25T16:22:17-05:00

I enlisted in the Active Army in 1983 as an infantryman. There was an education center, but the most you could do is take CLEP exams, SATs, ACT and things of that nature, there was no time for traditional college courses and no internet to take online courses like today. I got out and went into the reserve component in 1987 and managed to take some traditional college courses accumulating 60 credit hours before becoming and AGR soldier in the National Guard. Contrary to what some Active component soldiers believe, AGR soldiers are not glorified receptionists and in my daily duties I found myself seriously lacking written communication skills. I went back to school when I could, deployments, military training, and duty always came first, and my college education came when I could fit it in. In the end, I managed to complete my degree when I was an E8. Competition for E8 and E9 in the AGR world is very stiff and a good PT score or NCOER was not enough to get promoted. You had to stand out, through your performance, your ability to communicate (speaking and writing), but most importantly by demonstrating personal initiative. I retired before making E9 because it was just time for me to go, but I am very glad I worked for that college degree because it has served me well in my second career after the Army.

Getting a higher degree shouldnt just be about chasing promotion points, every class taken with good grades should be reflected on your NCOER as quantifiable bullet remarks that could possibly justify an excellent rating if the courses you are taking are relevent to your career path and goals. One more critical piece to the puzzle would be counseling our soldiers and junior NCOs to set goals and establish a career path that includes recommending college degrees, certificates and/or coursework that will be beneficial to them as they progress through the ranks. Speech, communitcations, business, writing, project management, supervision are a few education tracks that would not only be beneficial to an NCO as they progress through the ranks, but also have value in the civilian world after their military career is over. If you choose not to get a degree and wonder why your career stalled at E7, then it may be because the people examining your promotion packet are comparing it with others who have sacraficed their own time to pursue a degree and decided those individuals have shown more initiative then you.

Finally, the internet and online training has made the pursuit of a degree accessible to anyone who is willing to make the time to get it done. When I hear an NCO complain about getting paid less than their officer counterpart, I tell them to knock it off. If you cant accept your payscale, do something about it and go to OCS; otherwise, stop complaining. Dont discount the value of higher education, and dont devalue it by pursuing meaningless degrees for promotion points. Should you have a degree to make E9? Maybe not, but taking higher education out of the promotion picture all together isnt going to solve the problems in today's NCO corps. Draw down is here, and if you arent experiencing it yet, you will very soon. When the Army cleans house during a draw down, they only keep the cream of the crop, so senior NCOs who chose to not pursue a degree may be forced to retire sooner then they intended, and all that noise you have been hearing about the economy recovering is a lot of bunk. If you dont like the competition on the inside, wait until you get out here in the civilian world its a whole lot stiffer for jobs that dont pay nearly as well as an E7.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 4:37 PM

2013-11-25T16:37:02-05:00

I believe degrees should be a requirement and it should be tied to rank. That said, I don't think we should penalize NCOS and WOs by making them pay out of their pocket. An officer can attend ILE and walk out with a degree (ditto War College and other degree producing schooling). We can tie it to NCO/WO PME IOT allow them to have the opportunity. Advanced civil schooling is offered during ILE - why not during BNCOC/ANCOC (forgive me - I have been retired for a few years and I know the names have changed). If you want to go above and beyond you can use the GI Bill and/or TA (Masters/PhD).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 4:59 PM

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Should it assist in being selected for E9. Yes. Should it be a prerequisite? Hell no. I see all to often leaders neglecting their subordinates due to the fact that they are focusing on progressing their career and not properly leading/mentoring their soldiers. Having done some college i can see no way that it has benefited my leadership ability or any other sort of thing that could assist me, other that rehashing how i got though high school. BSing papers and doing what it takes to get by and get that piece of paper that says I graduated. Now it does show a certain level of self discipline to be able to attain such a thing but so does going through schools in the military and actually learning something that can benefit the unit. Which is something people seem to be forgetting nowadays is that schools such as Air Assault, Ranger, Pathfinder etc. are to benefit the unit not just the individual soldier's career progression. They are designed to further the units capabilities by creating SMEs that can disseminate the information to the soldiers that havent had the opportunity to go, but thats a whole 'nother topic for discussion.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 5:02 PM

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What is getting missed in all of this is the bigger picture. While neither a degree nor the ability to max the PT test ultimately determine what quality leader is produced, part of being a quality leader is flexibility. The Army is moving towards a model that does reflect many of the structures and methods of civilian sectors. In addition, the Army is starting to partner more and more with private entities to accomplish missions and drive down some inherent costs. A leader (meant to imply effective and "good") in the military has the ability and sensitivity to reach out to and connect with leaders and subordinates alike, influence for positive execution, and ensure communication throughout. Many a Soldier has exited military life as "leaders" only to find themselves without the necessary skills to effectively be a leader in any corporation that hires them. The ability to earn a degree demonstrates both the flexibility to understand what goes on in the civilian world, and how some lessons learned can be applied to the military, but the vision of a leader who hears and understands what is coming and can adapt with agility to incorporate that as well.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 7:39 PM

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I personally think so. My greatest mentors (E9s & above) have all had at least a bachelor's degree--some even have their master's degree. However, on the flip side, one of my favorite quotes is "if you are the smartest person in the room, then you're in the wrong room." While our senior NCOs should have their education, it's still important for them to stay grounded and true to their NCO roots.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 9:05 PM

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<p>The term educated is loaded,  because it infers that being educated,  makes us more fit to do a specific job.   Like a baseball pitcher that becomes "crafty',  the pitcher has just made us of his experience.</p><p><br></p><p>A senior NCO has this same wellspring of fundamentals and the kind of wisdom that comes with age and/or a natural inclination.   I heard a Meteorologist on LinkedIn say that intuition is subordinate to a more educated approach.  (Statistics).   I am thinking to myself,   his skills as a forecaster are very limited.</p><p><br></p><p>A senior NCO has the requisite experience the professional military education to make the right call.    But also has intuition and this cannot be taught.   Education can only go so far.   What is it trying to achieve and who do you hire,  the educated <sic> or professionally experienced?</p><p><br></p><p>Yes, furthering your 'education'  can help but only maybe as a block on a check sheet.  If I were in combat,   I want experience over the theoretical war college tactic.   Far-flung notions can be lethal,  and while they may have use in a class room,  reality might throw you a curve.</p><p><br></p><p>As a forecaster,  you must be cognizant of variables and thinking outside the box.  But a person who is going by the book,   may have actually cost someone their lives.   In hindsight you could claim that historically,  this is the way it happened before,  but in weather we are taught to be skeptical.</p><p><br></p><p>And as the Major explained regarding promoting them to Lt. Col. or whatever equivalent rank. </p>

Response by Cpl Frank Hayden made Nov 25 at 2013 10:08 PM

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Absolutely not! Unless you want to blur the lines of the class system in the military. Which might not be a bad thing, far too many officers think they are the social elite leading poor stupid farm boys and kids. But, we don't need the road to the top becoming more difficult for enlisted. Many people enlist because they don't want to go to college, but still want a good future. The amount of experience an E-8 has is more valuable than a degree anyways. Bottom line, if E-9 requires a degree, there better be a bigger pay bump to go with it. 

Response by SFC Ricardo Ruiz made Nov 25 at 2013 10:23 PM

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To answer the OP. YES. But I think the armed forces will have more success by offering more than a school option upon reenlist at least for soldiers who really want to pursue a degree while in service.

Response by SFC Ricardo Ruiz made Nov 25 at 2013 10:23 PM

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Response by SFC Ricardo Ruiz made Nov 25 at 2013 10:23 PM

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Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2013 11:09 PM

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No.

It certainly should be encouraged, and I can agree that a degree should be looked at favorably by promotion boards. However, the function of a good senior enlisted member is NOT his/her academic skills, but rather his/her common sense and experience earned from the ground up. Education might very well enhance the work that they do, but by no means do we need or want it to be a limiting factor to E-9 selection. Doing that could potentially eliminate VITAL leadership from the selection pool, leaders who we NEED in these key senior enlisted paygrades to keep our war machine operationally functional.

Response by MSG William Cunningham made Nov 26 at 2013 9:04 AM

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I seriously doubt that having a B.S/B.A. will ever be a formal requirement for selection to CSM/SGM. However, in some MOSs, you will not make CSM/SGM without it.

I know a couple of MSG's who are very good at their job, and in my opinion, would make very good SGMs. But, when they don't have a degree or haven't even taken a class.......what kind of message does that send to a board.

The emphasis should be on making yourself better. If you have two Soldiers that have very similar records, but one is pursuing higher education and the other is not, who is going to get selected?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2013 2:27 PM

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Required - No

Encouraged - Sure

I am uncertain if CSMs Landry, Counts, Nielsen, Purdy, or Flowers ever had a degree, but I would follow those leaders into hell wrapped in det cord! It wasn't that they presented well thought arguments, or knew where to place a comma in a sentence. These leaders were hard, fair, and they lived in the field with the Soldier. They had doctorates in Field Craft. They oozed motivation out their pores. They were not only what right looked like, but they were mirrors to other members of the NCO Corps. They would show a 1SG, SFC, SSG, or SGT where they were deficient AND how to fix themselves.

Response by SFC A.M. Drake made Nov 26 at 2013 10:14 PM

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Yes I believe this is true, as it prepares them for the outside workforce, remember for civilians don't care it you served one day or 40 years, what does matter is the value you bring to that organization.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2013 3:33 PM

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Nope a degree does not validate a potential of a Senior NCO potential nor does it justify or quantify the hazards involved in combat. The true sense of development and protional worth will be clear and relevant as the NCO molds internally and externally throughout his or her career. the best answer to this is pursue a degree as time and mission allows but not make it mandatory if placed in lets say 5 deployments in a 12 yr period....some people fight others go to colege if you want a degree that badly then get out and go to school by all means. If you want a fight and lead Soldiers into battle no matter what the environment college or a degree cannot teach the unknown in WAR.....instincts and prior training will be the cornerstone of the next conflict.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2013 9:39 AM

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I think it should not be a requirement.

I joined the Army as an Infantryman, my job is to close with and destroy the enemies of the USA (and do area beautification). While I am pursuing a degree in Investigative Forensics, is that going to make me a better Infantryman? A better leader? No. The tools I need to lead my men and excel at my job are not found in the halls of your local alma mater; they are found through experience and dedication to the capacity in which you volunteered to serve.

It is possible for most to attain a degree in their career, it requires extra effort, but those that make it their sole focus are dead weight to the Army and they cause others to pick up their slack. The 2nd and 3rd order effects of an NCO who doesn't do his job reach down to the lowest private, as your seniors, peers, and subordinates are giving up extra time and effort to complete your end of the mission.

Requiring a degree to become a Sergeant Major seems like a pretty low priority in the grand scheme of things when we look at what else needs to be fixed within our organizations.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2013 10:15 AM

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Why not go a step further and make a baccalaureate mandatory for selection to MSG? Enlisted Servicemembers are encouraged to seek the same level of education as their same-echelon Officer. Maybe PSGs should have a baccalaureate as well, since 2LT platoon leaders need them.

Back to reality... The selection for SGM (or equivocal ranks in other branches) is by virtue extremely competitive. Only a small percentage of those eligible can be selected, and the selection process--although not perfect--does a much more comprehensive job of looking at the whole Soldier than it would with arbitraty discriminators in place. The board members can see plain as day which degree or lack thereof each candidate has.

I already know I am less competitive for MSG without a 4-year degree (and don't get me started on a string of TDA PCSs and 3 cancelled deployments/WIAS taskers resulting in no deployments.) I DESERVE to be less competitive. But if something else about my service record and demonstrated performance puts me above a peer who has a Masters in Philosophy and sat unoccupied on an air base for 4-12 months and can't lead Soldiers out of a paper bag, then so be it.

Response by SGT Sean Lynch made Dec 11 at 2013 2:03 AM

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Certainly. You don't want some hamhead in charge of Batallion!

Response by Lt Col Joseph Sopko made Dec 11 at 2013 4:41 PM

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No way.  I knew an E-9 with a Ph.D., and he was useless.  It's about leadership, not book knowlege.<br>

Response by SFC Stephen Hester made Dec 12 at 2013 7:53 AM

2013-12-12T07:53:09-05:00

While I agree that education is a force multiplier I don't think that we should mandate a BA/BS degree for SGM/CSM. TO require a degree would discriminate against NCOs whose career paths kept them in line units where they may not have as many opportunities for college as others. It would also place an NCO with no college at a disadvantage compared to an NCO who entered the Army with a college degree.

The bar for SGM/CSM selection is and should continue to be high so having a degree should carry some weight in the selection process so long as it is somewhat applicable to the duties and responsibilities at that level ( a BS in Management versus a BA in Art, for example).

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Dec 12 at 2013 10:18 AM

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I think in todays time E-9 should have a 4-year degree, after all its about being well rounded on the battlefieid as well as the classroom.

Response by SPC Christopher Morehouse made Dec 13 at 2013 9:55 AM

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Unless there is a baccalaureate degree in "Being a Bad Ass NCO", then no. I mean, what value would it bring?

If you've been a mechanic for 20 years, is taking some piano lessons going to make you a better mechanic?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2013 7:48 AM

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I've been following this thread for awhile and noticed a few of things. Many of those that have a 4 year degree, think its a great idea. Most of those are in career fields that allow you to have the time to pursue a degree. Hence they desire to be promoted, so they want this requirement.

I suppose we could make it mandatory to be a E-9 you have a Purple Heart and a Ranger Tab. How many would be up for that?

When I was a much younger man on active duty, I was young Paratrooper and the only schools I was interested in was Ranger, Jumpmaster, Sniper, SERE etc. Because thats what my leaders and role models were. It was encouraged to go.

The op-tempo of a Combat Arms soldier even in peacetime precludes studying for a degree. Between Mission Cycle, Co., Plt. Sqd. individual training, JRTC, NTC, advanced schooling, Support Cycle. Thats not counting the op-tempo since 9-11. Multiple combat deployments with train-ups in-between have been norm for over a decade.

I have a BS in History and I graduated with a 3.0. No way in hell I could have done it on active duty. The way I learned my extra language skills was by living among those people that spoke it and a bunch of tapes.

I'm all for education, the greatest NCO I ever knew told me "You never stop learning, you can learn something from anyone…even fools".

I have also noticed several people in their posts saying how a 4 year degree prepares that NCO for the civilian world. It does, but if you are E-9, you have dedicated your life to the "Profession of Arms". I'm pretty sure having a 4 year degree on your resume is not going to make that much of a difference.

I spent a good part of the last 10 years working among many, many, Ivy League grads, the best and brightest the State Dept. could send to the middle east. They were F$%^&*G horrible, out-of-touch and mostly naive fools. Which is why we have our current foreign policy.

Bluntly most degrees are not worth the paper they are printed on. Unless they are in hard sciences and or backed by a QBE. Thats "Qualified By Experience"!

I don't want a SGM with a degree. I want a SGM, who loves his soldiers (granted its tough love), who advises his commander well, who enjoys removing the "Mickey Mouse" BS that accumulates in a all units. A SGM with intestinal fortitude to say, "that is "f^&*$d up and my soldiers are not doing it!" A SGM who is cool under fire, seen the elephant and we would follow to hell, just for the sheer pleasure of watching of watching him put a jungle boot up Satan's fart-box!

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 14 at 2013 4:43 PM

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Thread necromancy. I do have a question though:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but every regimentally (infantry, ordnance, finance, etc) updated copy of DA PAM 600-25 features completion of a BA/BS as a promotion indicator for E-9. I don't know many SGM/CSM who don't hold at least a BA in something semi-obscure.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 15 at 2013 8:40 AM

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I have to vote a strong yes. As a young soldier and as a junior NCO I heard it stressed time and time again that we needed to constantly better ourselves. To pursue further military and civilian education. While a degree may not necessarily make you a better leader, obtaining an education will help to shape you into a more rounded leader. It also sets the example for those you wish to lead. For how can you tell the soldiers they should pursue an education and utilize the Army programs if you have not yourself? Completing your degree while enlisted is tough, I understand that because I started as a PV2 and didn't complete my degree until I was a SSG. But when you achieve a B.A. or a B.S. it demonstrates to your junior NCOs that you have the perseverance, the know how, and the ability to multitask on and off duty to accomplish such a feat.

Furthermore, whether a degree is "necessary" or not while in the military, by the time you are "rounding third base" and on the home stretch of your career, it would just be a more wise decision to possess an advanced degree. With the amount of veterans that will began to transition out of the military and into the civilian job market over the next few years, simply being a veteran isn't going to hold much weight as it may have in the past.

Here is an article from 2012 which stresses employers who are seeking military veterans WITH a degree.

http://thevalueofaveteran.wordpress.com/2012/06/03/bachelors-degree-vs-military-experience-why-do-employers-view-one-as-less-valuable/

When I was a recruiter I remember the Air Force recruiter posting the statistics for enlisted degree completion amongst the different services. It was a low blow but they had reason to be proud. The Air Force does a much better job at promoting college completion from within its own ranks. While true, they may not have been as mission saturated as the Army over the past 12 years, they've still got those numbers to stand behind. Which draws in more young people who have college minded goals on their agenda when comparing services.

http://www.afpc.af.mil/library/airforcepersonneldemographics.asp

I would urge anyone interested in pursuing college to do it and do it as now. Even if you must nickel and dime classes in between deployments. It can be done, but the longer you wait, the more likely you are to see our college benefits and TA reduced and/or cut. Such as the Alaract 317/2013 message which will reduce TA from $4500 a year to $4000.

http://langea.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/ALARACT-3172013-FY14-Tuition-Assistance-Policy.pdf

Air Force Personnel Center - Air Force Personnel Demographics

Bachelors Degree vs. Military Experience - Why Do Employers View One as Less Valuable?

When I speak to employers on developing military recruiting programs, a veteran’s level of education is an area that generates a lot of discussion. I hear time and again “where can I find the ones...

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Dec 15 at 2013 7:21 PM

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NO - HELL NO. Enlisted Leaders are not Officers, but are busy learning their jobs as Technical Leaders and as Military Leaders if they chose to go into the Command Structure. In either case The E-9 is busy refining his/her specialty and taking time away from learning your job to pursue a degree does not improve your performance. I have met too many book-smart people who could not teach people to fix equipment, or lead Sailors/Soldiers/Marines/Airmen to the head.

Navy Master Chief Petty Officers (and those in our Sister Services) have Professional Development Courses tailored to making them better Sailors and this is the goal we need to achieve. College degrees make us better in various fields as civilians for the most part. If you know Graduates of the Service Academies they are professional Military Members, not really the same as their University ROTC "Peers." Requiring a Navy Master Chief to have a 4 year degree of any type does not make him a better Sailor and may, in fact cause her/him to be distracted from Navy.

Response by SSG Matthew Thomas made Dec 16 at 2013 9:59 AM

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i believe a degree is a worthwhile endeavor. That being said I personally know many individuals who want to check the block on this by finding an easy online course and skate through it. It should go back to a personal achievement. Something the individual did in pursuit of a future goal. ie Job after the military.

Response by SFC Christopher Walker, MAOM, DSL made Dec 16 at 2013 10:27 AM

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I don't think it should be a requirement for selection to E-9, but I do feel that our Senior Enlisted should have a 4-year degree before 15 years TIS. It's a great motivator. Senior leadership should be the example for all. How can we tell our Soldiers to go out and get a degree when we don't have one? It's all about progressing and leading by example. A degree doesn't make you a better leader, but it does show your Soldiers and peers that you have the drive to achieve excellence.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2013 10:42 PM

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MSG, if that's the case, would the Army be willing to say, give you 18 months leave after you make E6 to pursue an associates and then jump right back into your slot on active duty, then after x amount of time as an E8 cut you out for leave to finish your bachelors?
Because if not, you might be relegating your leaders to potentially sub standard degrees from online universities, when the option would exist to possibly get bright and intelligent senior NCO's into top tier management programs, or ivy league intelligence degrees and the likes that could actually truly benefit their careers AND the Army...

Response by SGT Allison Churchill made Dec 17 at 2013 2:42 AM

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I'm a little concerned that so many people responding to this question have such terrible experiences with college graduates. <div><br></div><div>The civilian world and military worlds aren't that drastically different. There will always be jobs--absolutely necessary ones that keep the world turning--that don't require a college degree. But taking classes that don't seem directly related to your field give you a different, often better, perspective of pretty much every situation. That's only going to help people as they approach senior leadership roles. </div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2013 7:59 AM

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I do not think it should be a formal requirement. I do believe it will become a standard that we set for ourselves in the future. There are many different avenues available today for Soldiers to seek a degree. Some of those options require us to think outside of the box and may not include a brick and mortar option for some. I am a big fan online program from accredited schools. Things really changed for me in 2002 when the Army brought in EArmyU. Prior to that I had to withdraw from a lot of courses due to mission. I was able to take cases at my own pass online through CTC so if I had a mission that would prevent me from going to class it did not equate to automatically withdrawing from that class. This was also a benefit for me because I did not have to rush home, change and then head right back out the door to get to class.

I could see some sort of system where an associates degree (or 60 SH) is required for selection. I could then see some possibility where USASMA affiliates with a university system that validates the curriculum, extend the course to 52 weeks and a BS in Military Science is conferred upon completion of the course.

I definitely believe a BA or BS should be required for selection to certain nominative positions!

Response by CPO Thomas Robinson made Dec 17 at 2013 3:40 PM

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NO ! I've read a lot of pros and cons on this, so here's my opinion. I came in the Navy in '71 with an Associates Degree, A&P License and several years experience on aircraft. I CHOSE to go enlisted, stayed enlisted, and retired enlisted with 21.5 years, finally obtained a BS Degree in Aeronautical Engineering, A&P and IA and close to 14 RELATED schools while in the Navy. ALL of that helped me, but NONE of that would have made me a better E-9 (Ret'd Chief). It does help in seeing things in a different light, but the fact that a degree will make you a better person is crap ! I've had Officers with a BA in Marine Biology come in and fly aircraft. I'm not saying they were not qualified, but I do say if you are going to fly an aircraft, then have a degree in something related, same with the enlisted. A degree in anything will give a person an advantage in the process of learning. I had several opportunities to go the Officer route. Just wasn't for me. Nothing wrong with that, just wasn't my style. So in my opinion for whatever a retiree's opinion is worth, NO, on the requirement !

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2013 3:09 PM

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Yes, only if the 4-year degree is in war fighting, killing bodies, and leadership. All other majors is unnecessary!

Response by PO2 Orlando Sims, MPA made Dec 19 at 2013 6:30 AM

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An enlisted individual that possesses a combination of education, leadership, and technical ability will be a valuable asset to any command.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2013 10:03 AM

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Although I am strong advocate for pursuing a civilian education, a degree most certainly should not be a requirement to be selected for USASMA or the CSL. Within each respective career field are certain leadership and training requirements that are far more important for our most senior NCOs to have then a degree. I do applaud NCOs that spend countless hours of their time to earning a degree just not at the expense of our Soldier's time.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2013 1:51 PM

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I'm going to go against the masses prolly and say not only yes but to MSG as well. If as a 1SG you are expected to review hundreds of NCOERs but haven't taken a single English class I think it sets the company up at a disadvantage. I've seen some of my peers' writing and comprehension and it's appalling. When they speak and write they look like six year olds.

Not all mind you. But articulating your thoughts for training and on evaluations is a huge part of our job.

Response by SGT Tommy Silvas made Dec 30 at 2013 7:39 PM

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absolutely not by the time your ready for E-9 promotion a four year degree is nothing compared the experience you all ready have

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2013 8:25 PM

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MSG(P) Quick,

I don't believe it should be a requirement, however; I do believe that all Senior NCOs should be pursuing a Bachelor's by the time they are being considered for promotion. Furthermore, many Senior NCOs are pursuing degrees as a check the block in order to look good on paper for a board. I mentor my soldiers/NCOs to pursue an education/degree, but to ensure it is something they really are going to enjoy and use in the event they ETS out of the Army.

Respectfully,

SFC Alicea, Luis A.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2013 8:47 PM

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MSG (P) Quick, I do not think it "should" be a requirement, but highly recommended.  As Senior NCO's we are the Senior Advisor to the Company, BN or BDE CDR.  As many have reverted to, we as 1SG look over hundreds of awards and NCOERs to include counseling within our company.  We, SNCOs, should seek higher education, not basely for promotion, but for personal growth.  We are an ever changing Army, an educated Army.  Many Soldiers are entering the service with some form of education already.  I have seen counseling statements that should have really been looked over prior to being presented to Soldiers. A degree is worth more than "promotion" points, it should be worth personal goal.  Sounds like a cliche, but anything one does, should be done for individual growth and not for what can "get" you promoted. Great question to spark not only my thoughts on this, but many as well MSG (P). 

Response by PO2 Pete Haga made Dec 30 at 2013 9:51 PM

2013-12-30T21:51:04-05:00

seems to me that if they have a 4 year collage degree they should leap frog into the officers ranks not nco because that is what you need to be an officer. all of the Master Chiefs I had in the service had been in the Navy for 25 to 30 years and still had to salute that boot ensign that had a 4 year collage degree to get that gold bar!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2014 11:14 AM

2014-01-02T11:14:12-05:00

Great discussion. I believe this is why they are changing the TA program now. Too many enlisted Soldiers (usually SSG-SFC) were forgoing their careers and just trudging along so they could get a retirement as either a SSG or SFC but leave the service with a Masters. Now I don't think there is anything wrong with NCOs (mostly Sr. NCOs) being offered an opportunity for degree completion (like Warrants are offered). If an NCO worked hard and completed an AA why not allow them to finish a bachelors degree. The understanding would have to be that the degree has to benefit the Army (Just like the officers who pursue Masters on the Army's dime). So an NCO in the infantry should seek a 4-year degree with a focus on Military Strategy or Organizational Leadership. 

Response by MSG Bobby Ewing made Jan 4 at 2014 10:54 AM

2014-01-04T10:54:53-05:00

MSG Quick,

Thanks for your post on my question in reference should "Should individuals receive a masters degree upon successful graduation from the USASMA?" From reviewing all the posts under your question and mine, I see this is another debate that could go on forever. The feedback from across the services and throughout the ranks is great information that I will share with my troops.

I don't feel a bachelor's degree should be a prerequisite for promotion/selection for SGM. There were some great points made by multiple senior NCOs from across the services below and under my question. I just wish there was a tailored course for MSGs and SGMs that they can compete for that awards a degree once completed. For officers selected for the US Army War College, they are awarded a Master of Strategic Studies degree. Since all officers hold a bachelors degree, this is possible. So could there be a separate college or program for our senior enlisted leaders?

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 4 at 2014 11:19 AM

2014-01-04T11:19:46-05:00

This question begs another question, do the current and previous SEAs lack ability if they don't have a Bachelors?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2014 3:13 PM

2014-01-05T15:13:25-05:00

It makes you more marketable, those that say no do to OPTEMPO is BS. I got my ASS., BACH., AND MASTERS ALL in 6-7 year period while serving as a platoon sergeant, first sergeant and deploying twice and having a family of four. So it can be done, time management and support of family

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2014 3:20 PM

2014-01-05T15:20:53-05:00

No, Its does not increase your ability to be a leader. It does help with critical thinking and communication skills. As the CSM Maynard said below. Going to your NCO Schools and doing your best at them, will also helps with critical thinking and communication skills. But in todays Army, you need all you can get so you can get promoted. Just my 2 Cents

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2014 3:46 PM

2014-01-05T15:46:49-05:00

Just like anything else you do in your career, if you have one before being considered, it is to your advantage. Depending on the Soldier situation, there may be times where the have missions, family, and other priorities in their life that keep them from a degree. You force Soldiers to concentrate on degree completion, when TOTAL SOLDIER CONCEPT is how they look at you on the boards.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2014 4:00 PM

2014-01-05T16:00:45-05:00

I'm reading all the posts and I wanted to ask. What type of 4yr degree??? I'm seeing a lot of Yes and No's but what type?? Would a Coaching degree, be better then a IT for a Leader?? What about automotive. Would this be better then Amin or Business??

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 11 at 2014 10:26 PM

2014-01-11T22:26:38-05:00

I think this is a good thread for those we are trying to get to join can see the substance of some things we discuss between us as current and former military, soft spoken as well as informational and mentoring types of postings.

We also have fun at times while remaining professional.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2014 8:42 PM

2014-01-17T20:42:13-05:00

Take it from someone who has earned 9 college degrees, the highest of which is a Master of Software Engineering (University of Maryland University College)....the degree doesn't make the Soldier, the Soldier makes the degree. You get out of it what you put into it.

Making it a requirement across the board for promotion to SGM/CSM is a mistake in my opinion, because that requires skills that are not necessarily taught in college.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2014 4:22 PM

2014-01-24T16:22:13-05:00

No.

Response by CSM Chris McKeown made Jan 31 at 2014 11:45 PM

2014-01-31T23:45:45-05:00

A education is a good thing to have but lets get to the nitty gritty here. Below is just a few of the things I look for in a NCO.

When I look at NCO's I look at the person, how they perform their job, how they train their troops, how they put their troops first and commanders second, how they teach their soldiers to think for themselves and not follow orders blindly, how they respond in emergency situations and combat situations, how they take responsibility for their actions and their troops actions.

Depending how NCO's do in these type situations should determine if they should go up in NCO rank. I could give a rats ass about their education level. If they can do the job then give it to them.

Response by SSgt George Brown made Feb 5 at 2014 9:43 PM

2014-02-05T21:43:02-05:00

I do not think so, life experience should count for something.  The testing will cull out those who should not be in higher leadership positions.  A 4 year degree is required for officer ranks, it should not be for those who enlist.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 11:00 AM

2014-02-08T11:00:05-05:00

Do I think that a degree should be required for E9? No.

Do I think that a degree would help set him apart from his peers? Yes.

Do I think that a degree would make him a better SGM? No.

Here is why. There are many different degree's that you could obtain in college and just because that person has one of them does not change the Leader they have become over the last (insert career length). If you are being looked at for E9 then you have obviously continued to set yourself apart from your peers. You have demonstrated the potential for promotion time and time again. It is my belief that a degree will help you add another tic mark for progression but is not a realistic requirement. The requirements for enlisted education have already been implemented, WLC - SM Academy. While it is possible to get a degree while serving you cannot presume to think that it is obtainable by all Enlisted Soldiers / MOS's just because you were able to do it. The military in general is a giant evolving ball of individualism. Your career is not my career or another Soldier's career. Endstate here is you cannot require something for promotion that has not been implemented into an enlisted glide-path for promotion. You cannot require something that has no military connection. If you are to require a degree for promotion to E9 that gap between enlisted and commissioned pay better close a lot more than it is. I say all of this from a neutral standpoint. Too many times we answer these questions or act on our own personal endeavors instead of looking at the larger picture. I am working on my BS in computer forensics while serving and when its possible between deployments and training. It is a long process for me but I am making it work, slowly. I sacrifice time with my family that should not be a requirement. Just because I can do it, doesn't mean I should require it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 2:00 PM

2014-02-10T14:00:17-05:00

Only if you give NCOs time like officers get. May by not a full 4 years off, but over time and with promotions, give an NCO 2 semesters....to also include that college option many commanders offer but not a lot of NCOs take advantage of.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 7:09 PM

2014-02-14T19:09:02-05:00

A college degree is a pretty piece of paper that says you did a lot of reading and a lot of studying and spent a ridiculous amount of money on books that depreciate faster than cars.

That being said mine looks really nice on my wall. However it didn't teach me one thing about leading soldiers in the Army. I know several very smart and very competent SGM/CSM's ( I hate reducing people to a pay grade ) that got to that level based on job performance. Of course there are those exceptions out there too.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 12:58 AM

2014-02-15T00:58:29-05:00

In what time frame, in what subject, from what college?<div><br></div><div>If i have a 4 year degree and join as a SPC and never take another class my whole career am i still on par with the E-8 who just completed his degree in the last 6 years?</div><div><br></div><div>What if my degree is in childhood education and my peers degree is in military history or counter terriorism?</div><div><br></div><div>What if 35 of my credits are gimme credits from Joes Tech College and my peer has a degree with all hours from Harvard???</div><div><br></div><div>College education does not make you a better leader and it is also not an accurate measuring stick when comparing different degrees from different colleges from different time periods. MOS proficiency tests and higher standards at NCOES schools, 1SG and SGM academies would be worth more than a college degree! Knock the  TIG requirements back one year for MSG and SGM boards(or keep them), then make the academies a year long school, send the guys/gals packing that don't need to be in a leadership position and keep the ones who do.</div>

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Feb 15 at 2014 1:08 AM

2014-02-15T01:08:33-05:00

I don't believe it should be a requirement to be a SGM/CSM.

Side note: if your degree represents to you nothing more than a bunch of tests, evaluations, expensive books and a pretty piece of paper, then you have been severely deprived of educational development by your professors and gipped by your university.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 2:41 AM

2014-02-15T02:41:08-05:00

No, I do not think a degree should be required for promotion. I do, however, think it should be valued because I think obtaining a degree enhances the Total Soldier concept. As NCOs we are charged to continually seek self-improvement. We can do this a number of ways but, at a minimum, getting one's degree shows the dedication to go above and beyond what the Army requires of us.

What a degree should not do is substitute for performance and experience. A college graduate with no experience is a SPC or 2LT, not a SGM. But by the time a Soldier is being considered for SGM, ideally they will already have a good deal of experience and proven performance so whether we like it or not, civilian education will become a discriminator between Soldiers with similar records.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 4:05 AM

2014-02-15T04:05:01-05:00

Good question!  Though it maybe be tough to argue that it should be a requirement, it seems that it should be heavily encouraged.  I don't necessarily believe it should be enforced or implemented into the process for enforcement for promotion.  I absolutely see obtaining a degree as a broadening experience and opportunity for Senior NCOs to prepare for challenges of civilian life after their military career.  While, I don't believe having a degree should be a discriminating factor for selection or promotion, it would set a great example for others to follow.  How can an NCO expect a Soldier to seek more knowledge and prepare for future tenure in the Army if their leaders are not constantly seeking to improve themselves along the way?  How can a SGM or CSM expect to continually be a top performer above the Battalion Level?  How can anyone influence beyond their chain of command?  Some of it has to do with personality and some of it has to do with intellect.  <div><br></div><div>Structured Self-Development, Tuition Assistance, and nominative assignments/schools exist for a reason!  Education is key, however one must not forget that reputation and character are also present!  Anyone can obtain a degree if they have a work ethic, BUT without strong character and institutional values a degree will only get you so far.</div><div><br></div><div>It might even be a distractor for some Senior NCOs to have this as a requirement as I know that NCOs focus needs to be on the mission and the welfare of the Soldiers.  For the relentless and honest NCO, it might be a hurdle that can be accomplished due to the fact they are constantly seeking to improve themselves and maintain a winning attitude.  For some, it will be another requirement in the way of them taking care of Soldiers or it could become a way for some of the lesser talented NCOs that lack certain character traits to launch ahead of their peers because they honed in on the degree program and failed to uphold the NCO Creed.  </div><div><br></div><div>For those who are so inclined to feel that 2LTs are lacking experience and are no different than a brand new, out of the box, straight from BCT---Soldier.  It is your responsibility to train them, steer them in the right direction, and tactfully mentor them.  The really good enlisted leaders, train officers without them even knowing it!  So if the officers are not learning or they lack direction, some of it is on them of course, however some of the concern or heartache points back to the NCOs!  It is a steep learning curve for most and if they have the right attitude, morals, etc. then they have the potential to excel!  </div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2014 10:16 AM

2014-02-16T10:16:38-05:00

Yes. BUT that "requirement" should be relaxed during a time of sustained combat operations and for some period after afterwards. Just as the NCOES requirement was waived for a while during the height of the wars.

The Army has already identified civilian education as an important asset of developing well-rounded leaders. SSD, NCOES, and civilian education are all tools that help develop the professional Soldier.

Response by SGM Clarence Zarnes made Feb 17 at 2014 2:00 PM

2014-02-17T14:00:53-05:00

MSG Q, This is a very interesting topic you have posted. I have read through most of the comments and find them all interesting. Most responses seemed to be filled with legitimate pros and cons. I served nearly 28 years and I have been out for nearly 5 years. My last 9 years of service was as an E9 of one capacity or another.

During my period of service I consider myself a lifer. I did understand the importance of furthering my education and I tried to do so over the 28 years. However, do to the optempo of military service, my serving in various leadership positions of increasing responsibility, and my family time; I retired with less than an Associate Degree.

During my military career I was mission focused and very successful. I received many awards and recognitions for my achievements. When I left the Service I knew that I might be at a disadvantage because I had no degree. But because of all my success in the Service I was very confident in my ability to be just as successful in the civilian sector. Wrong!

Since leaving the Service I have realized just how important a Degree really is, with the current economy and job market being the way it is makes it even more important. I currently work in a position where I help Veterans with Barriers to Employment and Education is a Huge one. The Bachelor degree is essentially the new High School Diploma. It is not uncommon to see civilian jobs paying below $30K annually that require a Bachelor Degree. Often the degree is non-specific, but a degree is required.

In the current economy it is an Employer Market. Do to the amount and quality of people that are unemployed, the employer is able to pick the cream of the crop at much lesser wages. So for Transiting Service Members to try and compete in a market that they have little to no experience in and with no degree, their chances of getting hired are slim to none.

So to answer the question, “should a 4-year degree be a requirement for selection to E-9”, I believe that upon the completion of the Sergeant’s Major Academy that one should have achieved a Bachelor Degree as part of the SGM Academy process. Further, I believe that each level of NCOES should be a stepping stone toward different degree levels. The military does a great job of ensuring that our Service Members are professionally trained on their jobs and at each level of rank, but they do little to nothing to ensure they are professionally trained for when they leave the service.

I understand mission focused and I understand commitment to duty, but for most, the military is not a lifelong occupation. Often times we are not in service as long as we had planned for various reasons, so the military should have a combined or dual track training program for the military professional and the civilian professional.

Thanks, Clarence

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2014 9:39 PM

2014-02-23T21:39:53-05:00

I went back and forth on this one while writing, but here's what I make of this topic. Bottom line for me - No, they should not be required.

An E8/E9 selectee should definitely have a good deal of leadership experience under their belt prior to taking the next rank; however, I don't feel that a degree in basket weaving is going to do a lick of good in their elevated position.

While management degrees can have their pros in a senior leader position, the bottom line is how well the individual can lead/direct their personnel beneath them. A college degree, I think, should be pursued not for their current military career but for their prospect of a new career after the military.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2014 11:23 AM

2014-02-24T11:23:58-05:00

I agree with most people on here in that it shouldn't be a requirement. I am also with the camp that says it should way very heavily with the board members on the fact that a candidate for promotion to E-9 has a degree. I know that it does to some extent now, but I think that greater emphasis should be placed on it. It would help them mentor the officers in the unit and show the junior and senior NCO's that it can be done prior to their departure from the Service.

Response by PO1 Julio G. made Mar 3 at 2014 1:09 AM

2014-03-03T01:09:26-05:00

It is in the Navy. In fact, you must have an Associates to advance to E7, a Bachelors for E8, and a Masters for E9.

At least that's how it was right before I retired in '09. I think that policy was just being enforced then.

Response by CMSgt Charles Elliott made Mar 3 at 2014 3:15 PM

2014-03-03T15:15:26-05:00

I do not think any branch of the military should require a 4 year degree for selection to E-9. The Air Force does require a two year degree in your career specialty to further verify your technical competence and of course you have to attend the Senior NCO Academy in residence (at least this was policy while I was active duty). I like many others here feel the expertise, knowledge, skill, and mentorship a SNCO/E-9 brings to the table is not something you learn in a class room, it comes with being a "seasoned" professional who has experienced all aspects of his/her career field.

Response by CMSgt Thomas Halcum made Mar 4 at 2014 6:49 PM

2014-03-04T18:49:19-05:00

I think you should have a 2 year degree to be E8-E9 When I retired from the Air Force in 97 If you did not have it and went up against someone that did, you was sol.

Response by SMSgt Alan Saunders made Mar 4 at 2014 11:59 PM

2014-03-04T23:59:49-05:00

Short answer = yes.

I believe you should have an Associates degree before you advance to E-7 (Senior NCO). In the Air Force, this is done in your military specialty through the CCAF by transferring credit for military training, testing via CLEP and DANTES, and using tuition assistance to finish core classes. Minimal out-of-pocket cost and you have a degree.

Taking these steps to the next level enables you to pursue a Bachelor's degree in much the same manner. This degree should be a prerequisite for promotion to the top enlisted grade. Chief Master Sergeants, Master Chief Petty Officers, and Sergeants Major all fill billets that are leaders and high level managers. The 4-year degree may teach them certain skills, but more importantly it shows a level of commitment - to themselves, to those they lead, and to their service.

Response by SFC A.M. Drake made Mar 5 at 2014 10:18 AM

2014-03-05T10:18:32-05:00

I have read all of the pros and cons for having a degree in the enlisted world. now I'm only speaking of the Army. There is a DA or AR Pam 600-25 and it specifically says that in order to be competitive you must have a 2yr degree by a specific time or 4yr degree by a certain time. My assumption is it's necessary to have a degree, one it shows a can-do spirit and number 2 the board members shows favoritism for those that do complete it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2014 9:37 AM

2014-03-08T09:37:39-05:00

Making college a mandatory requirement will weaken the force even more so who will fight when everyone is in school?????

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2014 5:17 PM

2014-03-09T17:17:19-04:00

I don't think it should be a requirement because they don't give you points on the board for education. Your education should be something you do on your own to prepare for retirement. I mean look at it now for promotion boards you do t even get those many point in education anymore.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2014 10:09 AM

2014-03-10T10:09:58-04:00

Fantastic discussion. I got my degree in college, while in the military. But I am not saying it ought to be a requirement. It DOES show initiative and drive, however, which are very important ingredients for a NCO. But a degree isn't the only way to show that and many NCO's who influenced me in a positive way had attended nothing but the "school of hard knocks." When I was younger, there were more Vietnam Vets who were drill sergeants, etc., so they had a totally different perspective than the newer NCO's. A degree is important in life, but it isn't the "end all, be all."

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 8:41 PM

2014-03-19T20:41:36-04:00

Just my own curiousity so humor me....If we are requiring SNCO Corps. to attain a BS/BA, then what seperates them from a Branch Officer...OCS and thats it? Keep in mind im not minimalizing OCS but shouldnt there be something substainal to seperate the two?

This is how I see this currently stacking up...by what the Army is requiring

E-9:

SSD1-4

BCT

AIT

WLC

ALC

SLC

MANY years of experience

Positions

Reccomendations

Military Correspondence (up to E-6)

Additional Duty Assignments

Awards

4-Year degree

Deployments (not required but lets face facts if the army has 2 apples that are the EXACT same except one has a bow....they're taking the bow)

O-1:

4-Year Degree

Officer Canidate School

I undertand completely that this is skewd becuase it is comparing O-1 to E-9 and that an E-9 is paid over double an 0-1 with <2 years.

My question is what motivation do those in the enlisted ranks have to stay SNCO's or even follow that path when there is the option of having to do almost the exact same things and possibly be paid more as well as the other (forgive me for the lack of better words) perks that come with being an officer over enlisted?

Furthermore whats the point in the Green-Gold Program if you need the same stuff if you just STAY Green?

Response by SSG Mike Angelo made Mar 19 at 2014 10:33 PM

2014-03-19T22:33:12-04:00

No. Because the enlisted personnel are not wired to the college tract. And is that the message that a Senior NCO is making to subordinates?

..."Oh, lookie here, I got mine?" Officer career tracts are geared for the college and advance degrees. So, what are we trying to pull here? About 40 years ago, NCOs gave up personal counseling to their Soldiers...maybe NCOs need to take that back.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Mar 20 at 2014 6:35 AM

2014-03-20T06:35:13-04:00

No, there was a push in Class 59 to establish this as a requirement....the same folks behind the movement were generally the non-deployers.

During one of the phases, we swapped memorandums to grade another classmates memo.....one classmate was extremely upset that she received a low grade from a fellow student and she made a huge scene stating that none of the other students were qualified to grade her work. She had a Doctorate degree while the other student (me) had an Associates degree.....she had no clue what it took to wear the V device I had pinned upon my chest during combat operation as USASMA was as close as she ever was to combat (due to the violence across our border in Juarez). So, to me, not no but hell no. As long as we continue to select train and promote those senior NCOs (who are eligible,by MOS) to deploy and gave not deployed to combat, then we ought not levy that requirement either.

Is a booksmart leader better than a battlefield tested and proven leader? It is my opinion that the leader that has proven himself in the college classroom us much more competitive to be a 2nd LT than a SGM or CSM. The ideal is one with both skills.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2014 6:44 PM

2014-03-22T18:44:37-04:00

Yes I beleive they should. It shows they have taken the time to continue learning.

Response by CW2 Geoff Lachance made Mar 22 at 2014 7:14 PM

2014-03-22T19:14:59-04:00

No! That rank is reserved for those who have earned their degree the old fashioned way! You don't get that kind of respect from books!

Response by 1SG Nathanial Wood made Mar 22 at 2014 7:19 PM

2014-03-22T19:19:52-04:00

SSGt Sharp you are incorrect, there is no requirement for Army Warrant Officers to have an Associates Degree, although they will be significantly more competitive with one.<div><br></div><div>As to the original question absolutely not.  When I was a SSG I was told I would not make SFC without significant progress towards an Associates.  I pinned SFC with zero college.  When I was a SFC I was told I wouldn't make MSG without an Associates and significant progress towards a Bachelors.  My sequence number is 45 and I only had 44 hours all of which was converted from my Army Experience.  I am currently attending college to obtain a degree in Welding Technology as it is my desire to stay in a trade when I retire from the Army.  The Army has fallen into the same trap as a majority of America, we place an undue and overrated value on a degree.  While a degree certainly shows a willingness and ability to learn and see things through it does not necessarily equate to a better Soldier/employee.  I can show you countless emails I have received from Senior NCO's with degrees that are so incoherent as to be useless to convey a message.  When America started putting undue emphasis on degrees, schools started making sure EVERYONE could get one.  When I was on recruiting duty I had to tell a young lady with a Bachelor's from an accredited state university that she could not comission or enlist in the Army.  She could not score over a 26 on the ASVAB.  How valuable was her degree?  </div><div><br></div><div>We as leaders in the Army need to stop equating education with work ability.  We are doing a disservice to our Soldiers by placing undue emphasis on civilian education.  I'm living proof that you can make MSG without a degree.  A lot of hard work, strong work ethic, and professionalism will still carry you far in the Army.  As it should. </div>

Response by SrA Ron DuBois made Mar 22 at 2014 7:53 PM

2014-03-22T19:53:17-04:00

Hell NO!!! you can't replace experience with a friggin degree!!!

Response by SrA Ron DuBois made Mar 22 at 2014 7:54 PM

2014-03-22T19:54:27-04:00

Hell NO!!! you can NOT replace experience with a friggin college degree!!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2014 8:13 PM

2014-03-22T20:13:00-04:00

I think trying to equate anything to the "secret formula" of leadership is a mistake. Leadership skills are learned and leadership positions are earned through hard work and dedication to those we mean to lead. Getting a degree won't help you do that but it will make you a better person which could make you a better leader. In my opinion, I think E-9s should be on a path of self improvement. If they have been working on their educational progress since they were young troops they will obviously be well on their way to a bachelor's by the time they make it to E-9. After all, how can they insist their Soldiers value education if they don't show they value it?

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Mar 22 at 2014 11:34 PM

2014-03-22T23:34:23-04:00

No. Absolutely Not. Never.

I am a former NCO, and a current college student at Penn State University. Literally, there has not ever been a single moment since I have been in college that I thought "I wish I knew this when I was in the Army." I never once had to use Calculus, Rhetoric and Composition (Military Writing is completely different then college writing), Chemistry, Latino Studies etc.... in my time in the military.

Don't get me wrong. I understand the importance of a college education, and how it could be helpful .... but the advantage a college graduate has over a non college graduate in the enlisted military ... is incredibly little. Its like saying a guy who worked at McDonalds before enlisting as a 92G (Cook), is somehow 10x better then a kid fresh from high school.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 9:24 AM

2014-03-23T09:24:09-04:00

This question actually prompts another question in my
mind. What is the value of a senior NCO
in this new leaner, more educated military that finds itself engaged in persistent
complex operations? A Sergeant Major is
generally a senior enlisted advisor to a Lieutenant Colonel or higher. These Officers generally have over 20 years
of service and a Master’s Degree or better.
They match the NCO in military experience and trump them in education. As a senior enlisted advisor, what advice
does a senior NCO with a high school diploma really have to offer in the way of
sound strategic advice for a commander or staff officer? If you are an under educated NCO in a room
full of highly experienced and educated officers, then you’re just a person in
the room taking up space. If you want to
be a highly valued senior NCO, get your Master’s Degree.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 9:25 AM

2014-03-23T09:25:24-04:00

I have a question related to Senior NCOs with advanced
educations. At what point does an NCO
with a Master’s Degree stop being a traditional NCO and evolves into something
else? Educated NCOs provide their
commands valuable skills and insight and are educationally near peer with the
officers they work with. But are they
just cheaper officers? Should they become
Warrant Officers of some kind, even for branches without Warrant Officers?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 9:38 AM

2014-03-23T09:38:27-04:00

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 4:21 PM

2014-03-24T16:21:12-04:00

MSG,

I personally feel that is should not be a requirement. I go to NCOES, perform my job, lead troops
and represent the NCO Corp. How would obtaining a degree in say, business, make
me a better NCO in anyway? That being said, why would a degree in environmental
science make a good infantry officer? I think we have things wrong. There was a
time where you could be commissioned solely on job performance and leadership
skills. The fact that the army is leaning towards college to promote someone to
E9 really makes no sense to me. I recently heard in a NCOPD that you soon may
need a 2 year degree to make E7. At this point they should either raise the bar
for commissioning or pay NCOs more. I do not think a civilian degree should be
a requirement for promotion in both the NCO corp and the Officer Corp. I think
this should be based on Job Merit, leadership and overall potential. However, I
can see where having a degree should have its rewards (For example, faster
promotion).

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2014 5:37 PM

2014-03-24T17:37:53-04:00

I reviewed a few responses. This is an interesting question.
I’m of the opinion that education is a critically important part of the leader
development experience. We must adapt to a changing world. I also see it as a
matter of balance. Obviously learning your job is the first priority. Earning
the degree will sharpen you as an individual and improve on the tools you
already have. Additionally, Soldiers gain an important sense of accomplishment
when they graduate. This accomplishment transcends military service and has
greater implications on Family dynamics. Especially those who come from a
Family where they are the first to reach the milestone of college graduate.
This is an important example to set for any children they have. Lastly I’d say
that earning a degree is particularly important for the CSM/SGM population
because you need to be a relevant member of the team with a voice at the table.
You are surrounded field grade officers daily, all with advanced degrees. You
are engaged at the strategic level and critical thinking is a core competency.
If not careful, the CSM/SGM can be marginalized and minimized based on
perceived limited abilities. The education simply helps to broaden your scope.
It may also send a message to your contemporaries when they realize you have
the same level of education.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 12:55 AM

2014-03-25T00:55:35-04:00

I do not feel as though a degree should be required for any enlisted rank. Yes having a knowledge base may help may you a more well rounded individual, it will not necessarily bring around a better NCO. The biggest benefit to a degree on the enlisted side is showing which NCOs have drive. Unlike in the commissioned officer world we are not afforded time to pursue a degree (like captains that are considered mid careerists). Like wise we are not offered broadening assignments that may help our careers. The only option we have is to take classes on our time. This means making a deliberate decision to pursue life long learning over call of duty. A degree should be like being a drill sergeant, that is to say not a requirement but looked upon favorably.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2014 12:08 PM

2014-03-25T12:08:46-04:00

I dont think it should be a requirement, however it can make a more rounded NCO and should have some weight in the cosideration for promotion. I think Deployment experience should have more weight comparatively to Civilian education as well. A Soldier who gets deplyed twice on one hand and a comperable Soldier instead of deploying has a different duty position and is able to go to school what should have more weight on a consideration for promotion? If it becomes a requirement than the pay gap between O and E needs to close. At the end of the day the Army is a buisness and should properly compensate for the education and qualifications of its employees. Otherwise retention would suffer as highly educated NCO's and Officers would migrate to the Civilian workforce.. Look at the Medical field if the Army didnt allow Doctors to Commision at a MAJ or LTCOL than what is the incentive for them to stay in the force or enter the force? Duty and honor only take you so far, benifits and paycheck keep Soldiers in the ranks to provide for thier famalies.

Response by CW3 Ian Mains made Apr 2 at 2014 4:58 AM

2014-04-02T04:58:20-04:00

I don't think it should be a requirement. I think the selection numbers will likely show that it would be highly advisable to have one, though.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2014 3:19 PM

2014-04-02T15:19:13-04:00

As we move into a more integrated and electronic army, it is important for all senior NCOs to be able to navigate and effectively communicate with all echelons necessary for mission completion. I feel a four year degree should be mandatory for NCOs beginning at SFC. While this may seem somewhat dramatic, a senior NCOs responsibilities is greatly changed from that of NCOs. For example, staff positions, NCOICs, platoon sergeant positions, and above require a more broad approach to leadership than simply training and pushing your troops. You wont learn leadership, or practical knowledge in school; you should have gotten that before you became a senior NCO. What a college degree offers is the ability to take your managerial approach to higher levels; while it is hard to specifically define, I find that my education (not my degree) helps me to perform my job many levels above my peers, no matter their level of Army experience.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2014 12:05 PM

2014-04-04T12:05:21-04:00

YES!!!!! But only if NCOs are given the same oportunities to earn degrees as officers.

Officers are allowed to take a 2 year "break" in service to obtain their Masters or even PhD. NCOs should be allowed to do the same. Some time around the 8-12 year mark NCOs, make it E6 and above, as part or a re-enlistment option should be able to take the same 2 year break, to ether complete a 2 or 4 year degree. Full time school, full pay, have them draw from the GI bill to pay for the school. Keep them in the same post to keep down PCS costs if possible. If you feel you need to keep them honest, make them take an APFT twice a year, same with ht/wt. You fail ether, you get a chance to re-test, but if you fail, you get removed from the program, back to the line unit!!!!! (or chapter)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2014 2:32 PM

2014-04-04T14:32:11-04:00

I would belive that in any profession you hold valuable, you want to always grow and improve yourself and those around you. The Military gives us different tools and resources to do all that; however, I also strongly believe that it depends on the individual's level of commitment to grow as a Soldier and Leader. As a Specialist, I earned my Associate's Degree in two years; but I took classes daily during 1hr of my lunch time. As a SGT before becoming a Section Chief, I raised my GT Score and started persuing my BA in Criminal Justice. I attended classes at night, and I'm now about only 10 classes away from achieving my BA. My life and my profession as evolved in my 15 yrs. of service between special assignments and deployments. I choose to balance how I can still have fullfilling home and professional life, but nobody else can do that for me better than myself. Everything starts with yourself, and nothing shouldn't be motivated by others.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2014 10:24 AM

2014-04-22T10:24:20-04:00

A colleague and I were discussing the "younger generation," or, the one's who will replace us. These kids are growing up in a smarter and more technologically-centered world than any of us senior NCO's. To not realize that is to not tap into what will be known as the start of a "tehnological shift" of the way we do things. Granted, not all of this will take a degree and I would never want to take the personal touch and what you go through to get "there" away from leadership. A degree, whether two, four, master's or doctorate, is more of an indication of time management, perserverance and a seeking of higher knowledge. I work in the corporate environment and have twice as much "experience" in leadership than any of the senior officers of this company. Does that get me an immediate promotion? No. Wish it did but it doesn't. Add to that fact that recent grads are coming into a work force with MBA's and you see where your post-military future is pointing towards. Now, when we are in the military the younger kids are getting in for various reasons. Many are taking advantage of the bonuses and money for college. Some stay in after college, but most get out. It's a revolving door. Is is a necessity? No. I like the fact that it ought to be taken as "part" of a comprehensive package. The attainment of a degree doesn't mean you have arrived. It means you have taken another, harder-to-travel, road along the way.

Response by SFC Gary Fox made Apr 30 at 2014 1:07 PM

2014-04-30T13:07:01-04:00

I received my Bachelor in Business Administration in 2000. I can honestly say it did nothing to make me a better Soldier or leader in the Army. My leadership skills were developed by attending NCOES and from the mentors I had throughout my career.

I disagree with the notion one only develops critical thinking skills from attending college classes. In each of my NCOES courses we were faced with problems and scenarios where we had to use critical thinking. One also develops critical thinking skills from day-to-day life experiences and problems.

A college degree is not going to make someone a better SGM. I've had SGMs who had Bachelor Degrees and SGMs who did not. Trust me, I had some who had the degree should not have been SGM.

Response by 1SG Patrick G. made May 2 at 2014 3:19 PM

2014-05-02T15:19:27-04:00

...a requirement for selection? Never!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2014 4:00 PM

2014-05-02T16:00:47-04:00

I think the Army would be remiss to exclude Soldiers without degrees as senior leaders. In my 21 years I have seen good Soldiers that were top notch in their MOS but were absolutely not a skilled leader. I have seen degree holders (to include Master and Doctorates) that made horrific leaders and I have seen Soldiers that entered with a GED become excellent leaders. I am sure you have seen your own versions of this, basically not everyone is cut out to be a leader regardless of education level. Weve all seen at least one Soldier that did nothing but go to school after school, promoted fast, but didnt know anything about the MOS or being a Soldier.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2014 11:15 AM

2014-05-03T11:15:50-04:00

MSG, While I believe that a college degree is important, but I dont think it should be a major requirement. Some of the smartest people I knew, both military and civilian, never even graduated high school, let alone attend college. I think the knowledge you attained while serving in the military (vaious jobs that you held) should be sufficient

Response by MSgt Charles Bocage made May 4 at 2014 2:11 PM

2014-05-04T14:11:11-04:00

This is a really tough question because there are so many variables. Let's look at the reason versus the outcome. There is research which proves individuals with college educations overall, not specifically, have advantages others do not have. One significant advantage is the ability to experience situations with new knowledge gained through education and the possibility of proven practices they can use to solve the problem, not be the problem. There is no way we can prove that everyone who has a college education can implement the learning they have since having a college education does not prove how well you learned the information you were presented. Remember, there is no GPA on the diploma and you might have been a C student but you earned a degree.
In this complex time of having to integrate time, resources, people, money and information, a college degree can absolutely provide the strategies to use each of these effectively but it is still up to the person to implement and use them properly based on their learning and the change in the values they should have had when they earned the degree. It is a shame that a person would not want to earn a college degree and learn how to implement proven strategies and only rely on military knowledge so I would say the top rank as an enlisted should obtain a college degree since they have several years to do so. I have four masters degrees and while I was in the military, I was able to see things my peers who did not have degrees never saw and use the information I learned in class to implement military operations in a much more streamlined way. Just going to school to go to school is not the answer, you must go to school too learn, not fill a block. One justification is to be an officer you must have a degree, there is a reason for that, Charles E-7 MSGT

Response by SGT Jason Doyle made May 5 at 2014 11:41 AM

2014-05-05T11:41:36-04:00

The enlisted ranks have forever been a place where hard work and job knowledge remain the main and most important criteria for promotion, not ones post-secondary education. The officer ranks have an educational requirement for career progression and that is where this requirement should be left. I do not feel a SGM with a degree would have any advantage over one without one. I do believe a college education has a great deal of benefits, but it should not be a criteria for promotion at any level of the enlisted ranks - JMO.

Response by MSgt Gerry Young made May 5 at 2014 1:38 PM

2014-05-05T13:38:21-04:00

Whether folks like it or not, the possession of a degree has become a differentiator already. The Bachelors degree long ago replaced what a high school diploma was to the previous generation. I agree with some of the comments on here, that I served with people who had degrees and were terrible leaders. That is no argument, however, not to educate yourself. In the modern world, what you earn is what you learn. You can't even get a reliable job today without at least a Masters degree. My opportunities were hurt by my pursuing a doctorate, but by then I had already reached the CXX-level so it was less of an issue. My advice is ... don't listen to those who advise you not to get an education. They will be filling the unemployment lines outside the military. Get as much education as you can, and do not stop. Get at least a Masters degree if you can. Your family will thank you later.

Response by PO1 Joseph Feldhaus made May 6 at 2014 5:19 PM

2014-05-06T17:19:55-04:00

In the future, definitely a yes. There are so many programs available for active duty to attend college, and it shows initiative if members have a degree. I also believe military schools should all be included as part of that education, and the branches should all be accredited to issue college degrees based on those schools and college courses members have taken. Most of our courses are already evaluated by ACE and assigned recommended credits, why not carry this forward to a logical end and give degrees.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2014 9:30 PM

2014-05-08T21:30:31-04:00

A degree doesn't teach you Tactics, Techniques or Procedures.

Response by SSG James Wilcox made May 14 at 2014 4:22 PM

2014-05-14T16:22:24-04:00

Some of the most common sense people I have served with didn't have a 4 year degree. So I would say no

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2014 6:46 PM

2014-05-30T18:46:31-04:00

Although a degree is a great thing, I would say no. I have met many people that have a degree that are horrible leaders and met people that have no degree that are outstanding leaders. A degree shows commitment to bettering yourself and does make you smarter in that field of study but I don't think it teaches you to be a leader any more than time as a leader would teach you.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2014 12:54 AM

2014-06-06T00:54:15-04:00

Yes, a four year degree states that you care about your career and want to be a leader in the best sense. if you want to be a manager education and job performance should be part of it. It is that way in the Business world and should be that way in the military. We need to Lead by example. Getting a degree is the best way to be a leader.

Response by SGT Jose Chapa made Jun 11 at 2014 10:30 PM

2014-06-11T22:30:14-04:00

I have met so many people with 4yr degrees that I would not trust to watch my imaginary pet stick. I think by the time most enlisted personal hit E-8 they usually have the experience and knowledge necessary to competently handle the job. So no, there are uneducated and educated morons that and will continue to reach the upper echelons, hell look at our Kenyan comander and chief

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 12 at 2014 12:11 PM

2014-06-12T12:11:09-04:00

Although a degree may not be a predictor of success as an E9, it does increase critical thinking and communication skills. I also think the degrees that include elective credit for Army experience should count the same as those that do not. Subsequently, as a former NCO, I support a four year degree requirement for selection to E9.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2014 11:47 AM

2014-06-22T11:47:35-04:00

While I believe that getting an education of a different kind could benefit not just the senior NCO, but their subordinates, I don't think it should be mandated. However, I also believe it could help senior NCO's at the highest level recognize the importance of an education and in turn make them bigger advocates for lower enlisted to pursue an education in the event they don't want to make the military a career.
School isn't for everyone, just like the military isn't for everyone. We don't force civilians in this country to join. We shouldn't force our guys to go to school.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2014 12:13 PM

2014-06-22T12:13:24-04:00

I don't think so. Choosing to do off duty education is something that should set one apart from other individuals. By making it a requirement you don't see who your hard chargers outside of work are.

Response by SGT Robert Hawks made Jun 28 at 2014 3:24 PM

2014-06-28T15:24:08-04:00

If we are going to require a BA to make E9 then I would require a masters degree to make O6 and a PHD for O7 and above. Now isn't that a bit much if enlisted personnel want to get a degree great if they have a mos that allows them the opportunity to pursue it. However lets face facts combat arms MOS's and the MOS's that support them in field spend their carriers deployed in combat or the in field for training. So I would say know it shouldn't be a requirement that's why we have BNCOC, ANCOC, 1SGT course and SGM Academy to give those eligible the skills to perform those duties.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2014 6:04 PM

2014-07-27T18:04:19-04:00

Absolutely.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jul 28 at 2014 12:07 PM

2014-07-28T12:07:51-04:00

Requirement? No. Discriminator? Yes. This kind of falls into line with senior officers. We are not required to hold graduate degrees, but when you have one, it tends to set you apart from your peers who don't.

Response by SPC David S. made Jul 29 at 2014 2:12 PM

2014-07-29T14:12:20-04:00

I think the bigger question here is what kind of person seeks out a 2 year, 4 year or graduate education. I think as far as value from a leadership perspective it indicates that the individual is pushing their personal bar higher. This need for personal growth is a critical factor in regards to leadership. The education is merely a by product of this trait. However the individual who really encompasses that of a leader will more than likely set the bar high in other areas. The level of education can be viewed as a predictive indicator . While a cadet at USAFA there was a quote that I still remember even though I did not graduate from there. "Man's flight through life is sustained by the power of his knowledge. " In essence to be a leader you do not have to have an education but as a leader you want to have an education.

Response by Maj Jeremy R. made Jul 30 at 2014 11:51 AM

2014-07-30T11:51:39-04:00

Sounds like box checking to me. We have more than enough of that in the military already and it shows. So...no don't make it a requirement.

Response by SPC David S. made Jul 30 at 2014 2:34 PM

2014-07-30T14:34:56-04:00

It would be interesting to know from all the NCO's that stated no how many have a degree. I think this is a loaded question for many NCO's. In many cases it is hard to find the money and time. I spent 2 years staying up to 0300 many nights to get the reading in or assignments completed . And for all that say it would be a distraction or is to hard. You can either overcome the obstacles or reinforce them. Any thing worth having isn't handed out.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2014 6:18 PM

2014-07-30T18:18:03-04:00

Why should it be? At the end of the day it's just a piece of paper.

Response by MAJ Haris Balcinovic made Aug 4 at 2014 11:32 AM

2014-08-04T11:32:58-04:00

I think that a vast majority of the comments / replies here coming from senior NCOs miss the point a little bit. The question is whether 4-year degree should be required for selection to E-9, not whether the degree is required for selection for any other NCO grade. And I would say, not required but it should serve as something that separates them from peers. I say that with a caveat. Obviously the degree should focus towards the career field that the NCO is in, or perhaps Organizational Management. And it should come from an accredited program (doesn’t have to be a regular brick and mortar university, online degrees are fine but we need to focus on weeding out these “basket weaving“ degrees that are acquired just to get promotion points – and focus on quality and relevance of the degree). I have to agree with a lot of the comments from the NCOs (and being a prior NCO myself), the goal of every NCO should still focus on leading Soldiers – something that unfortunately we have gone away from over the span of last decade (I can’t tell you how many NCOs don’t know the first sentence of their Creed). But to say that degrees detract from that is a sign of bad leadership itself – if an NCO is only getting a degree to get promotion points and not focusing on leading his team, squad, platoon or company – then the NCO’s above him/her have failed them. As a platoon sergeant, I would have chewed my squad and team leaders’ a$$ if their excuse for not taking care of training Soldiers was, “I’m working on my college classes”. Soldiers first and foremost, then career advancement. However, I always focused on developing ways to motivate my Soldiers to better themselves through furthering their education. One of the comments below from an E7 stated that good NCOs spend all their time training and leading Soldiers, and that they’re essentially too busy to get a degree, and if they did get a degree that they’re not focusing on being an NCO. That’s a loaded statement as well – good leaders can delegate down to their squad and team leaders – bring them up, you can’t make yourself invaluable. And being able to juggle and multitask and still managed to get everything done (including a college degree) should be rewarded – that’s what separates the best from the average. I don’t think that promotions through E8 should be merited on just degrees, and by no means should they take away from years of experience and the volume of work put in by the NCOs who choose not to go to college, or simply cannot. However, I want to bring the point back to the question asked - whether 4-year degree should be required for selection to E-9 (no other grade below), so everybody harping about it that’s an E8 and below, cool down a little bit, and hear my argument. If you as an E8 have reached the time in your career where you’re looking at selection for E9, it’s safe to assume that you have around 20 years of service. As an E8 the level of hands on training and Soldier management by this time in your career should be minimal and focusing on grooming those E6s and E7s (who are the ones responsible for tactical level training to begin with). You as an E8 should focus on Operational and Strategic level tasks that you would see at the E9 level. If you have been a high-speed, low-drag NCO and during this time managed to get a 4-year (Bachelor’s / Baccalaureate) degree, you should be rewarded (all other things being equal), in the selection process. As a company commander, my 1SG already had his Bachelor’s degree and was working on his Masters in Organizational Leadership – I applauded it! And praised him for taking the initiative to better himself. But I made it perfectly clear that his education does not supersede his duties as the senior enlisted leader for the company. We all know the age old argument that having a degree, can’t substitute for years of experience. But in today’s world NCOs need to be adaptive and continual learners, especially at that level. Having a career or leadership/management focused degree is an enabler. Again, I don’t think it should be a requirement, but it should be rewarded.
As we engineers say - Essayons!

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2014 2:41 PM

2014-08-21T14:41:29-04:00

Regardless of how you feel about it, the reality is a degree is a discriminator. There will always be those jobs that dont allow you to take a knee...but somewhere in your career there is , that assignment that gives you time and space. Its about balance. This isnt just about military service, its also about what comes after service.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Aug 23 at 2014 6:15 PM

2014-08-23T18:15:05-04:00

You SGM's pretty much have that covered already don't you? Most of the CSM's I had had bachelors/masters degrees already. I know that many troops are busting their hump already and college is a huge burden to take on as well. The caveat is that an advanced civilian degree broadens the horizons and exposes the individual to more outside the box/outside the military critical thinking. This might change the ways a senior leader tackles problems within the unit. Are all great leaders college educated? No. Some leaders take to the Army "like peas and carrots"(thanks, Forrest). Is it a way to "trim the fat" in an ever shrinking military? You bet! College educated senior officers are going to be deciding who is first to go. If their thinking includes "How are they different from me?.... " I'd be heading to the ed center. Then again, I was a career SFC, so what do I know?

Response by SFC John Scanlon made Sep 1 at 2014 9:46 AM

2014-09-01T09:46:16-04:00

Yes it should. It should be required for each step in the senior NCO selection. Associates for E-8 bachelors for Sergeant Major. At a minimum they should be working on masters when CSM, it should be in the field they are working in such as hospital CSM should be working on masters for business in healthcare. They are in an extremely high leadership position at that point in their career.

Response by CW2 Geoff Lachance made Sep 1 at 2014 10:07 PM

2014-09-01T22:07:51-04:00

As long as soldiers skills are included in the accreditation!

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2014 9:08 PM

2014-09-17T21:08:43-04:00

The civilian world is slowly realizing the folly of the repeatedly expressed or implied opinions of every guidance counselor, high school teacher, or business "professional" that if you don't have a college degree you aren't going to be successful in life. There are entire industries that are screaming for tradesmen. Canada has gone so far as incentives folks going to trade school just to be able to keep their economy going. What does this have to do with the question at hand you may ask? The enlisted person has access to the greatest trade school there is. Military training. I've spent 20+ yrs as an aviation electrician (now AWF) turning wrenches and splicing wires. My job now is to teach those skills to the next generation and keep our planes in the air. Nothing in a bachelor degree program is required for that. I'm not a manager I'm a technician. You want a manager go get an officer they have degrees. If any enlisted member has the desire to go to college more power to them but no way should it be required and unless it directly correlates to their MOS/NEC I have a little heartburn with it being an added point value in their advancement at all. I'd rather reward my aircraft mechanics for going to school and getting their A&P license than getting their buisness degrees.

Off soap box

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 27 at 2014 4:16 AM

2014-09-27T04:16:02-04:00

I would not necessarily say a bachelor's degree but at least an associate degree. There are many NCOs who can't write an effective counseling or NCOER or that would allow their Soldier's NCOER to be delinquent because of their fear of writing. I agree that training and leadership are very important but it all has to be properly documented to receive credit. Just my personal opinion.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Sep 29 at 2014 12:40 PM

2014-09-29T12:40:33-04:00

I say absolutely not. I've had some great NCO leaders that didn't even finish high school, but chose to take the initiative to educate themselves. Not everyone has the means to go to college, and becoming a leader isn't learned in a college classroom.

Besides, once you have a degree, unless you are near the top end of the Enlisted rank structure, what would be the incentive to stay enlisted when you could take a pay jump into the Officer realm?

Response by PO1 Lester Frilling made Oct 2 at 2014 2:59 PM

2014-10-02T14:59:00-04:00

NO !!

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Oct 2 at 2014 3:10 PM

2014-10-02T15:10:38-04:00

As a junior NCO, it says a lot about an E-9 who promotes education if that individual has taken advantage of the military education opportunities in his/her career. As an E-5, I have already used Tuition Assistance to complete my Bachelor's degree and am currently using it to work on my post-Bachelor certificate . I do not see how an E-9 has not taken the time to do the same. I do not think it is unreasonable to make it a requirement. It shows a lot about leadership, character, and self-motivation to use your personal time to complete this education.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 3 at 2014 7:59 AM

2014-10-03T07:59:59-04:00

No. While I may feel that a college education is beneficial it is not an indicator of leadership anymore than a 300 pt score.
That being said the emphasis on education for promotion has created an environment of shady activity to obtain said credentials. An audit of educational credential in people's files would most likely reveal diplomas from non-accredited institutions, diploma mills, etc...
The average S1 or records clerk has no clue nor does the requisite check to verify if the school is legit. They get a sealed envelope that they assume came from a school registrar and they just add the degree to the records.

Response by SSG Genaro Negrete made Oct 6 at 2014 10:44 AM

2014-10-06T10:44:30-04:00

I am not sure if "requirement" would go over well. I've read through some of the comments and found a surprising spread across the ranks.

My only concern is the ability for NCO's to express themselves effectively in a written format. I can't say I've reviewed any E8 or E9 papers for syntax, punctuation, or overall flow, but I have seen it to be a problem for NCO's who have to counsel junior leaders and soldiers. It is often for this reason that some NCO's put off counseling until the last minute (if it is done at all). A college education can help these leaders at a young age to develop different, more universal communication skills.

I have to agree that OPTEMPO doesn't often lend itself to higher learning. The type of command team that allows soldiers to leave a field exercise for college work is to often the exception, not the rule.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've come to believe that a 4 year degree was implied for selection into the senior NCO ranks.

Since different jobs have different stresses and OPTEMPO, perhaps prorating credit for college completion based on MOS would work. An infantryman or intel specialist working in an MTOE, ARFORGEN modeled unit would get more "points" for completing a degree in their off time. Whereas an intel specialist or operating room tech gets a few less "points" for completing their degree because of the implied time availability in a TDA unit. This already seems too convoluted to work.

All in all, the college degree should be backed up by ALL levels of the chain of command and NCO support channels. Put it in an ALARACT or MILPER message if need be. I received college credit for military experience, but it was a sporadic mix of credits that didn't compile into a degree. The college education is the type of experience that can compliment military leadership and prepare a soldier for the rigors of civilian employment and continuing education.

Response by SFC Melker Johansson made Oct 6 at 2014 6:21 PM

2014-10-06T18:21:34-04:00

I don't think it should. I do not think having an academic degree is any indication on a person's ability of being a good leader. I even question the requirement for commissions officers to have a 4-year degree.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 30 at 2014 11:02 AM

2014-10-30T11:02:31-04:00

NO. Being able to read and write is a good idea. Not everyone with a 4 year degree seems to have that ability.

Response by 1SG Frank Boynton made Oct 30 at 2014 1:28 PM

2014-10-30T13:28:56-04:00

I don't know if a degree is the answer, but some college education should absolutely be required. The dumbest person I ever had to work for was a SGM in a Corp Support Command. He was the poster child for affirmative action. He had absolutely no talent and completely lacking in leadership. I would bet money he's one of the dumbest people to ever serve. I'm not slamming him, and I'm not berating him, just telling the truth. He's the result of a Cajun upbringing in Louisiana and a quasi-public education (he got through 9th grade). Louisiana is known to have the worst public schools in the country. Education isn't the “be all” that everyone gives it credit for. It will never replace experience, but it does give you a foundation to build on that you wouldn’t be able to without it. In my day, they were just starting to give consideration to people who had more education than others, but NCO's were NCO's, not Officers, and it was our job to get the work done and lead the troops, we weren’t political, except the SMA position. But SGM’s in a Corps level office who deal primarily with officers, should be able to hold his own intellectually. I earned my Associates before I pinned on E7, but then just didn’t have the time to continue my education in the Army, but as soon as I got out I finished my Bachelors, and went on to earn a Masters. Does it make me smarter, I think so, my average salary is in the 6 figures and I know that’s because of the education, and not because of my military experience.

Response by CWO3 Bryan Luciani made Oct 30 at 2014 4:24 PM

2014-10-30T16:24:35-04:00

One of the best things about the military is that we rarely judge someone based on their college degree or lack there of. More and more it has become a "tie-breaker" when ranking peers, and this is most often done by those who already have there degrees (officers).

When I got my AA, I was promoted to E-8 almost instantly. I now have my Masters (thanks GI Bill) and can honestly tell you it would have helped me very little as a senior enlisted person. I was counted on to spend every waking moment ensuring my troops and equipment was inspection ready at all times. My JOs had degrees but lacked the ability (experience and knowledge) to accomplish even the simplest of tasks.

My hope is that my beloved Navy eliminates preferential treatment for enlisted personnel with two warfare qualifications as well as those with college degrees. It makes no sense for the career-minded military people. If you are getting out, that's another story. Out here, you better have a degree or you're going to have a hard time getting in the door.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2014 3:58 AM

2014-12-06T03:58:56-05:00

It never hurts to get more education. With the future of warfare in a Joint, Interagency, Multinational environment I see more of a need to think more broadly even at the NCO level. A four year degree or equivalent helps develop the thought processes to operate more effectively in those sensitive situations. What American Soldiers basically do has not changed a lot in the last 2238 years. How they are expected to do it, especially at Senior levels, has changed considerably in the last 20 years.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2014 12:39 PM

2014-12-09T12:39:11-05:00

A college education should not be a requirement for any position in the Army.

To me, the Sergeant Major is the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Commander. As such, the SGM should be the organizational expert on the training and administration of enlisted personnel.

A SGM should be selected based on his or her previous performance duty experience.

Response by SFC David Howell made Dec 9 at 2014 1:02 PM

2014-12-09T13:02:10-05:00

I say NO. It should not be required, but it is always a plus when being considered for promotion.
Here is an example. I have been in for 14 years and I have done everything that is possibly available to me within my MOS. As a young Soldier I put in extra time to get a degree, and I got the Associates completed. As I moved up the ranks, and the deployments increased, I did not sign up for more classes because I chose to spend more time with my wife and children who are growing up fast, and I want to be there for family time and special occasions. When I am at work, I focus on the work that is needed to be done, and I absolutely do not think Soldiers should be doing their college classes during duty time. I plan on getting back to the college classes and work on a bachelors degree, but it will be after I finish my current assignment as an AIT PSG, because this job takes more than enough time from the family. NCOs who balance their career, training young Soldiers, military education, and professional development, and have a family that they would like to keep intact should not be forced to include a college degree in order to progress up the ranks. I will be continuing my education when I get the time, but if we make a degree mandatory for NCO's it will take away from the focus that they should have on the Army, their Soldiers, and their families.

Response by SMSgt Judy Hickman made Dec 10 at 2014 11:23 PM

2014-12-10T23:23:24-05:00

I don't believe a 4 year degree should be required for E-9 promotion, mostly because I've worked with a lot of CMSgts who didn't have degrees and they were some of the best leaders I ever worked for. In fact as a E-2, an E-9 and I took our first college classes together and he was awesome.

I do believe the AF is moving in this direction. It is not required yet, but in another 10 years I bet it will change. Right now the AF expects all members to have a 2 year associate's degree (CCAF) by the time the member hits E-7.

Education is currently used as a discriminator for promotion boards, strats and awards. I don't think it is far fetched, for the AF to expect a 4 year degree for E-9 when they already expect a 2 year degree at E-7. Associates degrees are also expected for all PME and technical school instructors.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jan 24 at 2015 11:19 AM

2015-01-24T11:19:09-05:00

I'm a little torn on the subject. I never obtained a college degree, instead I headed for the Vo-Tec world. I completed a mechanics course at Boise State University and went to work. As a Reservists I ended up doing a lot of correspondence courses(MOS based). I worked in the back country as a guide, before internet and such. During these years I had no abilities to attend college or take courses. After moving to Denmark I've attended Cornell's farrier course, went through the Danish farrier certification course (3yrs) while at the same time teaching myself a different language and starting a business. During this time I was doing my Reserve duty. I did the non-res SGM COURSE along with all the other duties I had. Do I feel I was educated enough to do my job as a SGM? YES! Do I feel a college degree would have been an asset to my job as a SGM? For me no. I was fully capable to complete any mission given me. There are more ways to improve oneself than obtaining a degree. I think every individual situation is different. The key I feel is "Are you doing what's needed to improve yourself"? I do feel if you started a college degree, then it needs to be finished. I do know there are many degrees out there which have no rime nor reason to a job one has, yet the degree is earned and valid. In the end, for now, I feel it takes more than a college degree to make a good E-9.

Response by CMSgt Lloyd French made May 7 at 2015 11:20 AM

2015-05-07T11:20:24-04:00

In industry, they "praise" performance and "promote" potential. Performance is your every-day good job...POTENTIAL is what ELSE you can do on top of that. It is a reasonable expectation that an E8-going-for-E9 would be furthering their education to demonstrate "potential" ... but the expectation that a degree should be in hand at that point takes away from the broad leadership refinement necessary for solid performance at the E9 grade level.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2015 8:44 PM

2015-07-06T20:44:15-04:00

Yes, absolutely this is the 21st century.

Response by MSgt John Schiller made Jan 5 at 2019 12:18 AM

2019-01-05T00:18:33-05:00

No. It's one thing to be in an administrative position (regular hours) and get a bachelors but it's altogether different if you're in a highly deployable position as I was. I started my Nursing Bachelors in 2001 (before 9/11; got my AA Nursing in '97) and couldn't finish it until after I retired in 2013.
BTW, who's the cutey in the middle?

Response by SSG Greg Miech made Feb 9 at 2021 11:35 PM

2021-02-09T23:35:32-05:00

I think it should be a requirement. If one has over 20 years and with online degrees earning a degree should not be a problem and would help in their retirement as well if they are to work somewhere else. If college is not a predictor of leadership to a senior enlisted than it should not be a predictor for new officer. However to an NCO with good leadership record and college would raise the quality of the NCO Corps as well. Ask yourself, how many NCOs still have trouble writing up counseling, EERs or awards?