Should a business be allowed to not let people into their store/restaurant if they are carrying a weapon?

Sgt Kelli Mays — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:30:43 -0500

http://www.ksat.com/news/watch-how-mom-and-pop-shops-can-follow-states-open-carry-law
Texas has passed the Open Carry Law.
Should Restaurant owners, store owners or any business owners be allowed to ask anyone entering their place of business to leave their weapon in their vehicle, or otherwise don't come in?
I personally don't like it....but I know many on RP will disagree.
What do you say?

WATCH: How mom-and-pop shops can follow state's open-carry law

KSAT News

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2015 1:38 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:38:20 -0500

Sgt Kelli Mays I think they've been doing this since the 1800's. It was not unusual for towns, cities, and establishments to request that those entering relinquish their firearms. People think the argument for gun control is new, but it isn't. The truth is that the Tombstone leaders of the 1880s did more to combat gun violence that the state of Arizona is doing today.

(No I do not have anything against Arizona)

Response by PO1 John Miller made Nov 12 at 2015 1:48 AM

PO1 John Miller — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:48:50 -0500

I don't like it, but that's the owner's rights as it is their private property that I am a guest on. If they don't want me or my gun in their store, I simply won't patronize their establishment anymore.

Response by PVT Robert Gresham made Nov 12 at 2015 1:50 AM

PVT Robert Gresham — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:50:43 -0500

Sgt Kelli Mays The law of the land dictates that weapons may be open carried in public. However, when entering a business it can be argued that a person is entering a "private" area. Just as I would have the right to ask you not to carry in my home, so a business owner has the right to dictate that guns will not be carried in his/her establishment.

I am not familiar with the laws of Texas, but in Alaska, where concealed carry is legal without a permit, there are still no carry zones. Places of worship, banks, the post office, Military facilities and, theaters are all exceptions from the concealed carry, and of open carry laws.

If you can't walk from your car to a business that does not allow guns to be carried, and back again, without carrying a gun, then maybe you are in the wrong part of town.

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Nov 12 at 2015 1:52 AM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 01:52:22 -0500

Simple solution: conceal your weapon. I never open carry unless in uniform. You are safer with it concealed anyway. You don't cause liberals to piss themselves and you don't invite bad guys to try to take it. You also don't make yourself a target if something does happen. Of course I also try not to do business with places that restrict guns. "Gun free" areas are too tempting for bad guys.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Nov 12 at 2015 2:20 AM

Capt Seid Waddell — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 02:20:25 -0500

Sgt Kelli Mays, I don't like it either, but I think the business has the right to make that rule if they choose to do so. Just as we have the right to take our business where it is more appreciated.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Nov 12 at 2015 6:26 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:26:10 -0500

This is a Public vs. Private matter.

You as a homeowner don't have to allow someone with a weapon into your home. A PRIVATE business owner should be able to exercise the same abilities.

The 2a is restrictions on the GOVERNMENT, not the People. We have to keep these concepts separate. Compelled action, is restriction of Freedom. If the Government makes a person say something, it is just as bad as saying they can't say something. Likewise if the Government tells a Private Citizen or Organization they cannot restrict access or weapons on their own property (a compelled action), then they are infringing their Freedoms for the sake of someone else. Equally bad.

The person who wishes to carry (openly) can choose to shop elsewhere (generally), which maintains the balance.

Response by PO2 Mark Saffell made Nov 12 at 2015 6:59 AM

PO2 Mark Saffell — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:59:10 -0500

That's a Hard one. In Missouri its weird how that works. They cant stop you from carrying but they can ask you to leave. Yet we have an open carry law here.

Response by 1LT Aaron Barr made Nov 12 at 2015 8:29 AM

1LT Aaron Barr — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:29:23 -0500

Kinda torn on this one... The limit of any right, to include the right to keep and bear arms, is that you violate the rights of nobody else in the process, which comes from our equality of rights. This includes the right to property. Nobody would think another person was out of line if I told a person I didn't want them to bring a gun into my own home against my will and I think the same should apply to privately owned business. However, we routinely violate the right to property of business owners by way of anti-discrimination laws. As such, I would argue that we should either get rid of anti-discrimination laws and allow business owners to exercise their property rights or include exercising one's 2nd Amendment rights as protected as well.

Response by MSgt Curtis Ellis made Nov 12 at 2015 8:35 AM

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:35:29 -0500

As long as the store can provide reasonable protection for it's patrons.
It is my opinion only that unarmed patrons in an open carry state should have a reasonable expectation of protection when frequenting an establishment, especially if that establishment does not allow firearms, and it's just a matter of time when a lawsuit will be brought up for wrongful injury/death for this realization. I'm waiting patiently for that one, it's going to be a doosie...

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Nov 12 at 2015 9:39 AM

COL Vincent Stoneking — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:39:59 -0500

Absolutely they can. Private property, private rules. A private individual or a business should be able to determine 100% the rules in their environment, provided that they are not actively violating the law. Very few laws give anyone the right to do anything against a property owner's wishes on that property (well, except for the government.....). Easements and the like are so contentious because of that very fact.

I felt the same way about smoking (should be the business' call) before - and after - it was outlawed in businesses in this state. I am very anti-smoking and would often not frequent restaurants & bars just because of the clouds of the stuff. But it was their right to forego my business. And most other things.

Should they? That is a much harder question. For me, the answer is always no. This is more for philosophical reasons than practical. However, it is something that the business will have to give some thought to. Which option will affect their bottom line the most? Is that acceptable? Do they somehow get some insidious liability? Etc.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Nov 12 at 2015 9:47 AM

LTC Bink Romanick — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:47:23 -0500

Sgt Kelli Mays I feel that a business should have the right to deny anyone carrying a gun from their premises due to safety concerns. I question the need for open carry anyway.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2015 9:55 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:55:03 -0500

I believe they should have the right to deny entry to whomever they please. It's their business and as long as laws aren't being broken they should have that right. They are also aware (or at least should be) that some of their potential patrons will find another business that suits their gun carrying needs.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Nov 12 at 2015 10:13 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:13:06 -0500

Support their right to carry, but it always makes me nervous. Businesses in my state can deny one access if they wish to carry firearms, even legally. I suppose I would appreciate them if the shooting started by some nut.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Nov 12 at 2015 10:25 AM

SSG Warren Swan — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:25:54 -0500

"Business owners should have the right to create the kind of customer experience and environment that they want,”...didn't work so well with the cake makers did it? Personally I'm FOR the ability until proven otherwise to carry a HANDGUN. I will not and do not support the rampant desire to carry AR/AK/MP5/M60/M240/120MM Smoothbore/25MM Bushmaster/300MM Gatlin style gun, or .50 Cal Barrett style weapons. I'm still torn on whether we should allow TOW, Tommahawks, Minutemen, or LAWS on our person. In all seriousness, if you have the right to carry, and want to in accordance with local, state, and federal laws, knock yourself out. For the weapons listed I really do not see a need to walk anywhere in a metropolitan city with an "assault style weapon". Paladins and 777's are exempt from this. I see nowhere in the US where a beta mag is nessicary for your personal defense on the streets, and I've been and lived in some rough areas. The whole point is defending yourself (not offensive operations), and some folks will take it to the ninth degree and swear being in (insert name here) is SOOO bad...they needed their own B-52 to protect them. The F-35 wasn't available in the stores yet. Something about an extended waiting time for product.... I've mentioned some ridiculous weapons systems on purpose because there will be that ONE person who will go out of his or her way to test the law and put it on youtube. Those are the a**clowns I cannot stand, and once the police are involved, now it's harassment from the cops, ohh the cops this or that. A .45 or a 9MM will kill just as good as a MLRS. Might not be as sexy as hearing a BRRRRTTTT from the A-10 you saved from the scrap heap, but it will protect you just the same. We need to be wise in what we do, or overregulation WILL reap it's head and I don't care what side of the coin your on, or what party you claim, it will come and will hit hard.

Response by SSG Audwin Scott made Nov 12 at 2015 10:49 AM

SSG Audwin Scott — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:49:33 -0500

Guns don't kill people, People kill people, so if the guns are allowed into undisciplined peoples hand, we going to turn back into the wild wild west!

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2015 10:55 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:55:02 -0500

Private businesses may post signs to indicate entry on the property with a handgun by a license holder is forbidden.
Penal Code Section 30.06 provides the language to be included on signs to indicate license holders are forbidden to carry concealed.
Penal Code Section 30.07 provides the language to be included on signs to indicate license holders are forbidden to open carry.
Posting of both signs is an indication by the business that license holders are forbidden to carry concealed or openly.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Nov 12 at 2015 11:09 AM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:09:43 -0500

Well I personally WILL NOT go to a establishment that will not allow me to carry my weapon CONCEALED or OPEN. I understand the reasons behind the places that you can't carry at all. But here is another question for the gun basheres. How do you know that I am not carrying concealed any how. If it is concealed and you don't have up the 30-06 sign and I am not showing or brandishing my weapon, how do you not know that I am carrying to begin with! They will lose a lot of business and will take the signs down and welcome them after words. I won't say where I go to church for obvious reasons, but I wouldn't try coming into my church and try and shoot the place up. You WILL be carried out! all I am saying.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2015 11:21 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:21:23 -0500

Sgt Kelli Mays, I am already noticing warning signs on businesses doors outlawing carry or concealed weapons. It's their business or they work for the owner, and I feel it is the owners prerogative to allow or not. If I was in business, I would expect the new law to be used at my discretion.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2015 11:21 AM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:21:45 -0500

In Texas, the laws for carry conceal are pretty clear. Any business/building not excluded by federal or state laws has to have specific signage at the entrances of the building to prevent entry. The little signs that do not comply with TEXAS PENAL CODE ANN. § 30.06 are not a valid for CHL holders.

(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/PE/7/30/30.06

TEX PE. CODE ANN. § 30.06 : Texas Statutes - Section 30.06: TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO...

FindLaw provides TEX PE. CODE ANN. § 30.06 : Texas Statutes - Section 30.06: TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN for Lawyers, Law Students, etc.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2015 11:36 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:36:53 -0500

SGT, I feel that the owner of a restaurant or store should be allowed to ban firearms. The space is privately owned, so they have that right as long as they display the sign in a prominent place and enforce the rule consistently among all patrons.

I probably wouldn't patronize a gun-free restaurant myself, though. Gun-free zones only serve to keep the good guys from protecting themselves and others, while the criminals remain armed.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Nov 12 at 2015 11:47 AM

LTC Stephen F. — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:47:40 -0500

Sgt Kelli Mays the fact that Texas has passed an open carry law should not be construed to mean it is a mandate for every citizen who has a gun to be able to go where and when they please while carrying a weapon. If open carry was mandated it would be trampling on the rights and responsibilities of other citizens, shop owners, schools, houses of worship and groups of people who either don't feel that open carry is appropriate where they are as well as those who have been traumatized by gunfire.
I support open carry and closed carry where it is legal; but, I don't consider that a mandate to trample on the rights of others. We each need to be wise how we exercise our "rights" to ensure that we are responsible.

Response by CPL Timothy Heald made Nov 12 at 2015 1:52 PM

CPL Timothy Heald — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 13:52:57 -0500

Private property, you can refuse entry to anyone for any reason or no reason; except law enforcement with a warrant.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Nov 12 at 2015 7:48 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:48:21 -0500

Healthcare facilities do not permit non law enforcement personnel from having a weapon in their possession in their facilities

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Nov 12 at 2015 9:05 PM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:05:26 -0500

I do hope that everyone understands that this discussion only applies to law abiding citizens. Criminals and nut cases pay no attention to laws or signs. You can make the rest of the people defenseless but cannot keep bad guys from having a gun short of strip searching everyone entering the property and even you might not catch them all. Bad guys just don't obey the law.

Response by Sgt Stephen Browning made Nov 13 at 2015 3:28 AM

Sgt Stephen Browning — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 03:28:59 -0500

I am a licensed concealed carrier, in the state of ky. In our class we were told that all that they could do is ask you to leave if someone noticed your carry weapon. I have a right to personal protection. As long as I have not upholstered my weapon no one has a right greater than that right. Even if someone is afraid of my weapon their fear by no means trumps my right to protect my own life or the lives of those around me.

Response by PO1 Brian Austin made Nov 13 at 2015 5:05 PM

PO1 Brian Austin — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:05:33 -0500

It should be up to the business owner. It is their business and if someone doesn't like it they can spend their money elsewhere. I would think it would fall under the "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." statement.

Response by SPC David Hannaman made Nov 13 at 2015 5:18 PM

SPC David Hannaman — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:18:48 -0500

In the case of Texas, it's completely allowed. All they have to do is post a 30.06 on the door:
Also you can't carry in a business that makes 51% of it's profit selling alcohol.

No signs, no complaining. If there's a sign, only police are allowed to carry.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2015 6:00 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 18:00:05 -0500

Absolutely. Armed or not, if a business decides he/she doesn't want my business, they are free to ask me to leave. Once the owner/manager informs me I am not welcome, I will leave, even though the only crime I could be charged with is trespassing (a misdemeanor in most locales, yours may vary).

Response by CPO Andy Carrillo, MS made Nov 13 at 2015 7:56 PM

CPO Andy Carrillo, MS — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:56:35 -0500

People and businesses are free to announce to armed criminals that they can expect no resistance whatsoever...

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2015 11:21 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 23:21:48 -0500

Yes, if a business chooses that path, it's my right not to go into that establishment. In TX, I'm sure there are a lot of firearm owners who feel the same way. Here is my prediction; stores who refuse open carry consumers will be targeted by criminals more often.

Response by SGT Marvin "Dave" Bigham made Nov 27 at 2015 6:34 PM

SGT Marvin "Dave" Bigham — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 18:34:40 -0500

Yes. A business or property manager should be able to make that call. HOWEVER, the decision, like smoking-vs-no smoking and closed-toed-shoes, will impact their clientele and marketplace. The option citizens have to defend themselves will open opportunities for some and limit others. It's just a thing...

Response by LCpl Stephen Arnold made Mar 27 at 2017 12:58 PM

LCpl Stephen Arnold — Mon, 27 Mar 2017 12:58:31 -0400

I think absolutely, without question. With that said, it is definitely a right of citizens to voice their displeasure at this.

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made Mar 30 at 2017 7:08 PM

SSG Gerhard S. — Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:08:03 -0400

Yes, this goes to concept of private property rights. I would go further, and suggest that any private business should be able to refuse service to anybody they choose. Doing so is likely counterproductive for the business owner, but is their right to make such mistakes on their property, or place of business, or home, for that matter.

Response by CW3 Harvey K. made Apr 30 at 2017 9:59 AM

CW3 Harvey K. — Sun, 30 Apr 2017 09:59:31 -0400

Anyone who has such a policy must take on the responsibility for the safety of those they disarm. Certainly, when such a policy exists in courtrooms or police stations there are armed individuals present to protect the disarmed "civilian". The same should be required of any business that puts up a "No Guns Allowed" sign. The sign must be backed up by searches and armed guards, or else that sign serves only to point out a "defenseless victim zone".
Of course, as matters stand, that entitlement to protection only extends to those who might otherwise remain lawfully armed, if it were not for the policy of the property owner. Those who have chosen to be unarmed, trusting in the statistical likelyhood of not being a victim of violent crime, have no claim against the property owner. Their potential victimization is a risk they have accepted passively no matter where they go, in public places or in privately owned businesses.

Response by SGT Chip Albritton made Aug 23 at 2019 1:02 PM

SGT Chip Albritton — Fri, 23 Aug 2019 13:02:22 -0400

Absolutely a private business should be able to prohibit firearms on premises. You dont have to patronize them. I am a concealed weapon permit holder in South Carolina. Here proper signage must be in place.
That is the great thing about this country!