Should a mentality standard within the AF apply to all ranks regardless of AFSC?

SSgt Paul Esquibel — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 09:11:54 -0400

(NON-OFFICIAL STANDARD) During my time on active duty I have had the privilege of serving both in Supply, Communication and Maintenance Squadrons. I noticed major difference in the mentality of responsibilities between the different AFSC's. Specifically that within the Supply Career field and at bases I've been stationed at that E-6 and above do not work weekend duty or are on call like a "rank has it's privilege" even though mission dictates otherwise vs. within the Flight line and Back shop Maintenance Career field E-7 and below will all pull weekend duty or work weekends their mentality of "rank has it's privilege does not apply to this". Have you had similar experiences and what are your thoughts on the difference of mentality for setting a standard within AFSC's for responsibilities?

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2015 9:22 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 09:22:18 -0400

We have all ranks on the awacs. If you are on the crew flying that weekend you are there with the team whether you are an A1C or LtCol.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Oct 29 at 2015 9:26 AM

MSgt Michael Smith — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 09:26:16 -0400

I think you are sort of confusing standards with duties. Standards are rules, like haircuts, uniforms, and sexual harassment stuff. Standards apply to everyone, they are uniform. Duties are specific for every individual, group, rank, etc. Part of being lower in rank means having to do some of the less fun duties that higher ranking folks pass on. Its part of the culture, we've all been there, and when you get higher in rank, you will pass that work along to. RHIP -Rank has its Privileges.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Oct 29 at 2015 9:29 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 09:29:56 -0400

You are using "standards" Subjectively as opposed to Objectively.

Let me offer a counter point.

I'm in a BN S2 shop. Capt, GySgt/SSgt, Cpl, LCpl. At the end of the day the LCpl takes out the trash. It's one of his delegated responsibilities. Just the way it is. If he is not there for whatever reason, the Cpl does it.

I've seen upper echelon shops consisting of a General Officer, a Major, and a MSgt. At the end of the day, the MSgt takes out the trash. When he's not there, the Major does.

It's not a "standards" issue. It's delegated responsibilities based on the ranks available, based on the billets as assigned in the T/O (Task Organization).

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Oct 29 at 2015 9:44 AM

PO3 Steven Sherrill — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 09:44:52 -0400

SSgt Paul Esquibel the old adage Rank has its privileges applies to your question. You will never see a general empty his own trash, or do his own laundry. It is not going to happen. Now you can bet your stripes that when that same general was a butter bar, he emptied the trash and did the other shit jobs the upper officers didn't want.

When I was in the Navy, there were jobs that only lower enlisted were assigned to. There were watches that if you didn't have the qualification signed off, you stood that watch every duty day until you did have it signed off. It was a little different in the Navy in that we had our in port watch sections that was comprised of lower enlisted to officers. The officers maybe didn't stand quarterdeck watch, but then again they were the ones responsible for the ship during that watch section. So while I don't recall the CO or the XO staying aboard ship in port over the weekend, we did have officers from O-1 to O-4 who would stand duty regardless of what day it fell on.

Response by SrA Daniel Hunter made Oct 29 at 2015 9:46 AM

SrA Daniel Hunter — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 09:46:15 -0400

I don't know about other maintenance fields but in aviation you generally have to have an E-5 or above there. That is because their experience level (Craftsman or above) allows them to sign off on repairs made and documented in Aircraft forms. It then depends on what your units manning is. At the end of my service we had four E-5's, two E-6's and four E-7's in our Element. They all rotated on weekend duty. If Supply didn't need someone with at least Craftsman level authority then there is no need for them to work weekends. In short, R.H.I.P. unless the mission dictates otherwise.

Response by MSgt James Mullis made Oct 29 at 2015 11:00 AM

MSgt James Mullis — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 11:00:37 -0400

They used to call it stove piping. I remember being told that if you don't want to work weekends, join one of the support career fields such as Social Actions or Manpower. What you have encountered is likely more related to the level of work being done on the weekends then anything else. Weekend duty and who pulls it, is typically dependant on the type of tasks being done and the level of supervision required of the tasks and to a certain extent overall manning within a shop. Since many shops are made up of multiple AFSC's, it's better to use the term shop. There are shops that require full manning 24/7, such as the Security Branch of the Security Forces Squadron. While others only need on-call or minimal manning, such as Supply or Finance. Aircraft Maintenance Organizations will typically have a "Maintenance Super", A Senior NCO who pulls weekend duty, while the individual maintenance shops (AGE, AMMO, Life Support, etc) have Airman and Junior NCO's on duty or on call when needed for a specific task. However, I've seen many a Senior NCO pulled in on a weekend to assist with or sign off on a critical repair. They should come in on weekends to do spot inspections of their workcenters.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2015 11:26 AM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 11:26:16 -0400

One of the beauties and at the same time ugly parts of leadership is that each leader can set their own expectations (which I think better describes your question vs. standards). In your example you are comparing TSgts in LRS with TSgts in AMX...of course you are going to have different expectations. But let's compare apples to apples. In my personal AFS, Pavements and Equipment, each shop has their own expectations. When I was in Korea, SSgt and below had to run Airfield sweeper but when I got to Hill only SrA and below had to. It wasn't a matter of manning, mission, shift work...it was a matter of personal opinion expressed by the MSgt in charge. Heck think about the difference in responsibility that a SSgt Combat Controller has vs the responsibility that a SSgt in FSS has...night and day. In the end, we pay leaders to make those decisions on the best way to accomplish the mission.

Response by TSgt Gwen Walcott made Oct 29 at 2015 2:18 PM

TSgt Gwen Walcott — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 14:18:46 -0400

Don't know about the rear echelon, but in Ops, there were no slackers in the enlisted ranks.
You wanted a paycheck and keep the pink slips away, you pulled your 96 hour workweek just as a spanking new 1st class did -- even if you were a super-zebra --- and that included the Shirt (even tho' he was assigned CC instead of DO)

Response by TSgt Philip Howard made Oct 29 at 2015 3:52 PM

TSgt Philip Howard — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 15:52:27 -0400

It all depends on the shop and what their duties entail. I will say though, that as an NCO, if your troops are in the shop, your ass better be in there with them. There were plenty of times when the troops worked 12hr shifts, yet their "managers" with stripes worked eight. I was actually called out by management for refusing to leave when my troops were working 12s, apparently it made everyone else look bad. I informed them that I was trained to be an NCO, so that meant I led, not managed, and they deserved to look bad.

Response by MSgt Jim Wolverton made Oct 29 at 2015 8:07 PM

MSgt Jim Wolverton — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 20:07:03 -0400

I don't know but as a MSgt pulling weekend super duty, I worked more weekend than I did as a TSgt

Response by MSgt Robert Pellam made Oct 29 at 2015 10:27 PM

MSgt Robert Pellam — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 22:27:33 -0400

This is a good question. Unfortunately the answer is you will never have any type of standard mentality across the board. Just look at the different mentalities of the MSgts that replied here. Each had their own point, and I can guess that most of their morals, when it came to leadership were either mentored down from a previous boss, or instilled in them when they were younger.

My point is it really falls down to the individual in charge. I always told anyone I supervised that I would never let them do something I haven't done first. As a MSgt, I kept that mantra. As a back shop maintainer, with a flight line responsibility, I have crawled into some holes, I never turned down a deployment, and I always mad sure my people came first. It was how I was raised and taught. My people worked their butt off for me and I always loved the two way respect that it fostered.

So I say this. It comes down to you. As a supervisor, will you give into the RHIP? Or will you lead from the front? This works in the military and in Civilian life. I always never thought highly of people who Used RHIP. Seems like a cop out of being a leader.

Response by SMSgt Cary Baker made Nov 2 at 2015 9:54 AM

SMSgt Cary Baker — Mon, 02 Nov 2015 09:54:45 -0500

I can say, as a MSgt working in a MAJCOM, my hours were set 40-50/week. However, once I PCSd to a Minuteman Missile unit, I worked harder than I ever did in my career - 120 hrs/week. Even as a Senior, I still worked 80+/week. I believe that RHIP for me referred that I wasn't going to conduct grunt work anymore - I was wrapped up in the daily, weekly planning of our missions and ensuring it was done safely & securely while ensuring my teams had everything they needed to complete their missions.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2015 11:52 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Nov 2015 23:52:18 -0500

We always had weekend work because we worked all three shifts each week
and our weekends were hit or miss but we never had CQ, or other base duties.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 13 at 2015 10:08 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:08:01 -0500

I'll echo what many others have said, duty is what separates one person from another. I worked an intel squadron for 7 years. Rank had very little to do with the hours you worked or the duty you had. Longevity and skill had more to do with where you found yourself working. For example, regardless of whether you were an A1C or a TSgt, you found yourself working watch (Navy term that stuck... its actually shift work) for at least the first six months. For me, I worked watch for half of my assignment in Hawaii. I was moved to PACOM JIOC to do TDY in place for 1.5 years. When I finished, I was put into an SME shop. By that time, I had been on station longer than any other person in our joint division. Even as a SSgt, TSgts were being put on watch over lower ranking individuals because they simply had less time on station. Experience was built in our particular AOR by being on watch for a particular amount of time.

So, to answer your question, no, this should not be something established and enforced across the board. Every job is different and has different fulfillment requirements.

Response by SMSgt Matthew Hoyer made Apr 6 at 2016 1:14 AM

SMSgt Matthew Hoyer — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 01:14:06 -0400

I personally don't ask any of my people to do something that I either would not do in their place or alongside them. Weekend duty sucks, but it's a reality; it's also good for the troops to see the E-7 or E-8 out there periodically so that they see they are embracing the suck too. It goes a long way to credibility if you are willing to suck up a little discomfort for your people (because seriously, that's all it is; uncomfortable).