Should an Islamic electrician be allowed to refuse to wire a Christian church?

2015-04-27T23:50:48-04:00

Can our religious faith dictate how we earn or spend our money?

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made Apr 28 at 2015 2:02 AM

2015-04-28T02:02:28-04:00

Brethren, I posed this question, because I am also a licensed journeyman Electrician. Years ago a company I worked for was highered to wire a Islamic house of worship. I let my employer know that I felt I would be a hypocrite if I worked on the project. I then let him know that if he had to "fire" me for my position I would not hold it against him. By the way I don't have a problem with people of other faiths I just felt that by supporting a religion that proclaims Jesus isn't God was the hight of hypocrisy for me. I'm interested in your thoughts.

Response by Sgt Ron Danielowski made Apr 28 at 2015 7:29 AM

2015-04-28T07:29:47-04:00

Of course.

You (or your company) should be free to refuse to service anyone you like.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 9:09 AM

2015-04-28T09:09:52-04:00

I'm of the opinion that nobody has a right to my labor or yours. All of the social issues should fall secondary to that.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 9:10 AM

2015-04-28T09:10:57-04:00

I think the questions is why a business would want to hire a professional to complete a job that does not want to do it. In my mind, the work completed would be shoddy at best.

When I hire somebody to complete work, no matter what type of work, I want the person/company that is going to do the best job possible. If a company/person does not want to complete it, for any reason, I do not want them there.

Response by SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA made Apr 28 at 2015 5:23 PM

2015-04-28T17:23:15-04:00

Yes. I do not believe that anyone should be compelled to associate or do business with anyone.

Besides, wiring is an important job, and one that can likely be done by someone else. I don't want someone to be forced to wire a structure that I will spend time in. Since he doesn't want to do it, maybe he won't do a good job, or perhaps even sabotage it.

Response by SSgt Randy Saulsberry made Apr 28 at 2015 10:19 PM

2015-04-28T22:19:46-04:00

If he is denying it because of their religion I would say no. We are talking about a private business but as a small business owner myself I do know that there are a lot of percs that business owners get from the government for the sole reason of having a business. So if he wants to deny that service for that reason then he should lose every government perc he gets for having the business. If he is an employee then he should lose his job.

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made Apr 29 at 2015 2:29 AM

2015-04-29T02:29:24-04:00

It's amazing to me how many soldiers don't understand what freedom they are fighting for. Should a Christian be "required" to build a strip joint, or a black contractor be punished if he refuses to build a kkk lodge. Think about it. Will you do anything for money gentlemen?
Where are your Army Values!
Didn't you learn about Sgt York in PLDC.

Response by PO2 Steven Erickson made Apr 29 at 2015 5:52 AM

2015-04-29T05:52:12-04:00

Let me be so bold as to remind all of us that this is the United States of America. You have the right to think and feel as you see fit, even if the majority (or, yes, even if EVERYONE ELSE) thinks that you're a lunatic.

If I choose NOT to do something on the basis of my beliefs, HOW DARE ANYONE tell me that I'm not allowed to NOT do something? (I'm not talking about life-endangering action or inaction.)

This is the same "forced tolerance" that is in the news with business owners being punished and threatened for NOT conducting a business transaction.

Although I personally believe that racism and discrimination are immoral, unethical, ignorant and fear-driven primal urges, I will NEVER PRESUME to tell another man that what he believes should subject him to legal punishment. If some shopkeeper wants to discriminate against anyone, those who disagree should kindly take their business elsewhere. Pure economics will make the final decision on that person's business strategies.

God help us all if the majority is EVER allowed to tell the minority that they (we?) should be punished for what they (we?) think or feel.

Oh... wait... um... TOO LATE?

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2015 6:42 AM

2015-04-29T06:42:39-04:00

Absolutely. But can he legally? Unfortunately no. As well-intentioned as the Civil Rights Act was (and Americans with Disabilities Act), instead of simply removing gov't imposed discrimination via businesses, it merely changed the vessel of that discrimination (or ability to discriminate) to customers. By making businesses "public accommodations", gov't has significantly reduced the ability for people to exercise their natural right to freedom of association. A business is already largely subordinate to the public, via individuals' ability to choose whether or not to be a customer to them. But to force them to serve you is to make them your slave, and the fact that customers still pay for goods/services is effectively a guise of freedom to conceal the reality of coercion. All one has to do in this system to avoid paying for goods/services is to claim victimhood of some sort.

Response by CH (MAJ) William Beaver made Apr 29 at 2015 7:06 AM

2015-04-29T07:06:56-04:00

Best electrician story I ever heard: i was with a group of Baptists in Bayou la Batre, Alabama doing some post-Katrina home rebuilding. I saw the Mennonites and Old Order Amish (from Lancaster, PA) camped out there. Stopped by to visit with them to talk shop. I mean , how often do you get to sit and enjoy conversation with Old Order Amish? Well , we all shared what we were doing and my new Amish friend says he and the boys are here to rewire the houses. Say what? I ask him how he does that if he doesn't live with electricity himself? He smiled and said that just because he doesn 't use it doesn't mean he can't install it in the homes of people who need it. He is a self-taught master ekectrician. He added, " Now granted I am far better at removing electricity than I am installing it !" But that amazes me. Guys from a religion that doesn't believe in using electricity would hop a tour bus and travel from PA to the coast to help electrically repair homes devastated by Katrina. Since they have no TV they read about the Katrina news and responded accordingly . I gained a new and deep love for the Amish on that mission trip.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Apr 29 at 2015 9:40 AM

2015-04-29T09:40:59-04:00

SGT Anthony Rossi Should a black Baker be required to accept Neo Nazi's/KKK what-have you?

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Apr 29 at 2015 10:00 AM

2015-04-29T10:00:08-04:00

Absolutely. I went into this in detail on MAJ Private RallyPoint Member's wedding cake topic.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 29 at 2015 11:38 AM

2015-04-29T11:38:37-04:00

If you aren't allowed to refuse service, it is compelled service, which means you aren't experiencing Freedom.

I don't advocate refusing service in a Free Market, as that is counter to generating profit. As I mentioned in the Wedding Cake discussion, if you don't want the job, submit a bid that is "less than competitive" so that you effectively "price yourself out of the job." If they choose you, you are happy, because you make more money. If they don't choose you, you didn't want the job anyway.

Response by MSG Morgan Fiszel, CPCM, CFCM made Apr 29 at 2015 12:53 PM

2015-04-29T12:53:01-04:00

The answer to this exact question is: yes. A Christian not allowing a Muslim to eat in his restaurant or shop in his store is not the same thing. The later is not right.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Apr 29 at 2015 1:00 PM

2015-04-29T13:00:44-04:00

Discrimination based on race, gender, or religion.

Response by GySgt Joe Strong made Apr 29 at 2015 1:06 PM

2015-04-29T13:06:09-04:00

Sure, why not. Especially if he sees his action as supporting a Faith he would choose not to support.
What would be the compelling argument for Forcing him to do so?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2015 6:07 PM

2015-04-29T18:07:30-04:00

no, discrimination laws apply to everyone.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2015 6:18 PM

2015-04-29T18:18:41-04:00

If he does not want to do the job he doesn't have to give a bid. Regardless of religion.

If I own a business and i dont want to provide you services that should be my choice, because its MY business.

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made Apr 29 at 2015 6:34 PM

2015-04-29T18:34:29-04:00

Let's go a little deeper on this topic. Should a construction worker be forced to provide services to "any" organization even if it's against his personal conviction (Religious or other wise.) just a couple of examples:
Kkk lodge
Black panther lodge
Abortion clinic
GLBT Rally (perpetration of facilities)
Any place of worship that is contrary to his beliefs.
Dairy farm if he/she is vegan.

Does he have any rights or are his services not his own.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Apr 30 at 2015 8:18 AM

2015-04-30T08:18:27-04:00

Yes, the electrician should be able to refuse.

And why is a Christian church combing the yellow pages looking for the 1% of American electricians who are Islamic? Are Islamic electricians known for being great electricians? Not by my experience. I question their judgment.

Response by SGT Dylan Epp made Apr 30 at 2015 12:37 PM

2015-04-30T12:37:12-04:00

I say yes. However if a christian owned company has to pay a 100,000 dollar fine for refusing a gay couple a cake my answer is no. My personal opinion no one should ever have to break their honest and sincere religious beliefs to make someone else feel included or to prevent them from being offended.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 12:45 PM

2015-04-30T12:45:15-04:00

I think the reasonable approach to this depends on how much government interaction there is in business. RallyPoint constitutional scholars will argue about the extent of the Commerce Clause; even if "Commerce . . . among the several States" is not as broad as "intercourse," it can hardly be said that the Clause is narrow in scope. "Regulate" is a far-reaching word.

One does not have to do business under the protection of the State. Incorporation is a special classification for businesses which imparts important protections for owners and shareholders of corporate entities. Incorporation benefits include tax incentives, liability protection, and the ability to issue stock to raise capital.

People do have a right to do business with whomever they choose, but I don't think that should extend to people who invoke the power of the state to protect their business and assets, and then spurn the state when it says they must respect another person's basic human dignity.

I don't see how this has anything to do with association anyway. The state can and should be able to obligate public accommodations, who hold themselves out as dealing with the *public*, to deal justly with the *public*, which does not stop anyone from freely associating; start a private club, find another reason not to contract. If you run a gymnasium as a purely Mormon operation, the government says you can fire non-Mormon staff as you see fit. You can operate a private club if you want to keep certain objectionable people from associating with you and your compatriots.

Private discrimination is all but untouchable, but that doesn't mean people should be able to bring in the heavy hand of government to enforce it when it becomes discriminatory action. What if someone places a restriction on property that it never be sold to black people, or Catholics? Individual buyers and sellers can *privately* decide whether to honor or break that covenant. But what if a black family or a Catholic buys the property and someone steps in to enforce the covenant? Should the government enforce the restriction?

Many people are making the market argument. "Let the market sort out discrimination," they say, "Those who turn business away because of their discrimination will surely fail." That isn't a necessary conclusion. It permits the possibility of absolutely repulsive results, and in the real world it has been flatly proven untrue. Whether or not one believes homosexuality is immoral is irrelevant because, if the market argument is sound then Memories Pizza would be out of business; remember, business discrimination = out of business. In fact, the opposite happened. They received more than $800,000 for doing nothing other than refusing to serve patrons. In hypothetical terms, I think the market solution leads to a highly segregated society rather than one focused on the individual; less liberty rather than more. In the extreme, a Jewish man had better hope not to have car problems when he drives through a Muslim enclave in Michigan. No car repair, no lodging, no fuel, no food. Even if this is not a necessity in a market solution system, it is at least an abhorrent possibility.

I think public accommodation laws have been stretched quite far if we are now including bakeries and electricians. I don't think there is even a bare possibility that a gay man will find himself stranded somewhere on an interstate journey where the only available food is wedding cake. I also have no problem being refused service or admission by a private black fraternity or a private Jewish organization, provided that they truly are selective in their admissions and service.

You can operate a business without state protection. If my elected government is not conferring a special benefit on your business, then discriminate all you want. I wish reasonable notice were a requirement to better inform my purchasing decisions.

Please remember that we are discussing "should" which is subjective, and remain respectful. I'm open to persuasion, but not hyperbole, personal attacks, or delusional self-righteousness.

Response by PO2 David McColley made Apr 30 at 2015 2:44 PM

2015-04-30T14:44:48-04:00

I think that if an Islamic company refuses service based on a religious stance then other religions should be able to do the same, however, this is extremely shaky territory which will only create a larger and pronounced divide between the already tense cultures/religions. This country was based on religious freedoms and tolerance. If you have immigrated to the United States, welcome, but be a part of the solution, not another ignition point.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2015 7:56 PM

2015-04-30T19:56:14-04:00

I'm going to break bold and say no, absolutely not. And, in fact, the Islamic electrician should probably be sued for refusing to do the work. To wit ...

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/oregon-rules-christian-bakers-who-refused-gay-wedding-to-pay-135-000-fine-for-couple-s-suffering-who-pays-costs-of-religious-persecution

Oregon Rules Christian Bakers Who Refused Gay Wedding to Pay $135,000 Fine For Couple's...

Without the expert testimony of psychologists or therapists, the State of Oregon has determined that the extent of suffering caused by one lesbian couple who were politely declined service on religious grounds by one bakery should result in said bakery paying said couple $135,000 for a myriad of symptoms the couple allege stem from the emotional trauma caused by the refusal of service, to include: “acute loss of confidence,” “doubt,” “...