Should an NCO be required in all military vehicles as a TC?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 21:34:41 -0400

Should an NCO be required in all military vehicles as a TC for all movement with the exception of Convoy Ops?

For example, a vehicle needs to move from the Motor Pool to the Arms Room to pick up weapons, should an NCO be present for that movement, or are 2 Specialist capable of accomplishing this task without incident?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2014 9:39 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 21:39:44 -0400

I say 2 Specialist are good. These are the Soldiers one step away from NCO stripes, give them responsibility so when they make Sergeant they've experienced something.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2014 11:48 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Mar 2014 23:48:52 -0400

Only if you want a unit with all Chiefs and no Indians.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 2:17 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 02:17:28 -0400

What's a TC? Is that like a VC (vehicle commander)? I would have a Corporal present if we're talking about a lot of weapons but if it's a crew serve weapon for the VIC, two Lance Corporals can take charge.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 2:31 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 02:31:16 -0400

Rank doesn't always equal competence! It is a judgement call that requires some attention from an NCO such as ensuring valid licenses, properly dispatched vehicles, and other supervisory concerns such as ground guiding, proper PPE, etc.. We have to trust that our Soldiers can accomplish the mission without direct supervision, however if an incident occurs we must also be willing to accept full responsibility without complaint as a result of our decisions. The example you provided leads me to assume that other Soldiers are present to drive and the two Specialists would be supervising the movement in the capacity of TC. If am I correct, then I don't see why it would matter as long as the NCO had proper systems in place and provided effective communication in his/her message to the Soldiers followed by some inspections.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 5:28 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 05:28:44 -0400

I think that 2 specialists is more than sufficient.

Response by SSG Zachery Mitchell made Mar 13 at 2014 8:39 AM

SSG Zachery Mitchell — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 08:39:49 -0400

I don't feel that an NCO should be a TC every time a military vehicle rolls. I think there are many junior enlisted Soldiers who are perfectly capable, as well as disciplined enough, to be an appropriate TC. I also feel it should be a case by case situation though. If you have that one "special" Soldier then an NCO or a Senior, promotable, SPC would be beneficial. But I do agree with you that requiring an NCO to be the TC is a bit much and detracts from the mission as well as daily duties.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 9:11 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 09:11:37 -0400

I don't see why a good SPC shouldn't work, unless the SPC in units are not being brought up right

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Mar 13 at 2014 9:16 AM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 09:16:09 -0400

Most SPC's can handle the truck and the Job at hand. If it where weapons I think I have an NCO or a SPC team Lder in the NCO postion, in the Vic. As far as the problem child if they are that much of a problem why take the risk of the problem being worsened by that person driving at all. Although that does give the problem child a since of worth and responsiblity and actually might straighten the jug head out some what.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2014 9:35 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 21:35:46 -0400

Here at Fort Polk, it has to be an NCO to TC or a SPC on a memo signed by both the Commander and the BN Commander. It makes it hard for me as I am the only NCO in my section.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2014 5:29 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 05:29:19 -0400

I PCS'd from Benning not too long ago. Shortly before leaving there was a vehicle accident on the tank trail where a LMTV ran into the back of another vehicle...jacked the whole cab of that vehicle up. There was a SPC driving and for the TC?...Yep, you guessed it...a "NCO".

In a perfect world rank would be synonymous with ability, capability, capacity, and responsibility. Sadly...in the real world it's not. CRM includes the personnel supervising as well. Just saying.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2014 6:29 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 06:29:15 -0400

WE SHOULD BE GOOD WITH TWO SPECIALISTS BECAUSE WE AS NCOs ARE SUPPOSED TO BE TRAINING THESE YOUNG SPECIALIST TO BECOME SERGEANTS AND IF WE DONT GIVE THEM ANY TASKS TO ACCOMPLISH THE WE ARE SETTING THEM UP FOR FAILURE.

Response by SSG Daniel Deiler made Apr 7 at 2014 9:49 PM

SSG Daniel Deiler — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 21:49:20 -0400

When I arrived to my 1st duty station at Ft. Campbell, KY in 1995 I went through the Driver's Training Course, took my written and hands on exam and was licensed. At that time, there were no requirements for a TC (NCO, Officer, Junior Enlisted or otherwise). I would regularly jump into the 5 Ton that I was assigned, do my before checks like a good Soldier and drive on down to the SSA to pick up my Battalions parts and supplies without a problem. I did this without incident, scare or close call...I didn't even wear *gasp* a Kevlar!!! Or a PT Belt!!! And I did this all as a PFC for about 8 months. I don't say this to toot my own horn, but c'mon...if you're licensed on a piece of equipment that should mean you're proficent enough to operate it safely and without incident. If you're not, the master driver should not be issuing you a license. Perhaps make it a requirement to have XXX amount of accident free hours before being issued a license that states that a TC is not required? Or before XXX amount of hours a TC must be an NCO? Let's put this into perspective. How many Semi-Truck drivers on the road do you see with a passenger? I'd venture to say less than 10%. They seem to do just fine operating that large vehicle.

Now if there's someone available to TC a vehicle, absolutely. That's the safest route to go everytime just like if you go out downtown to go drinking or go out somewhere to go swimming...you grab a buddy. But it certainly should NEVER be a show stopper. In fact I would go as far to say that the more restrictions and so-called "safety measures" are put into place, the more DANGEROUS it becomes. You begin to focus more on what not to do or what you shouldn't do that it becomes a distraction. It even becomes akin to the "boy who cried wolf." You don't have to go very far to look. Case in point - The Magical PT Belt. It's even a parody and has it's own Facebook page for cryin' out loud. When you make every last Soldier wear a PT belt it does the opposite of it's intended purpose by blending in. It's supposed to STAND OUT. To catch someone's ATTENTION. Just like those words I typed in all caps. Here in Hawaii on Schofield Barracks we've had far too many Soldiers conducting Physical Fitness wearing the allmighty PT belt, running along designated PT routes and yet still get hit by a vehicle. You want to catch someone's attention? You designate a select few personnel to wear a road guard VEST. They may be an annoyance, but really how many times have you seen a PT belt covered up by a T-Shirt...or even better, covered by the gut of one of America's finest suffering from the DUNLOP disease???

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Apr 7 at 2014 10:02 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 22:02:43 -0400

Interesting! Since there are rank requirements on most military vehicles and vessels. Makes sense but having done my first tour of duty at CINCPACFLT where CINCPACFLT had a Motor Pool and most the Drivers were Non-Rate Seaman, I don't see it happening.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2014 4:32 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 04:32:30 -0400

SSG Murdock,

I think that two experienced Specialists could certainly handle the task of driving a vehicle, however I would not send two inexperienced Privates to do the task. I remember one of the specific incidents that occurred that caused that change almost three years ago. Two inexperienced drivers (neither had their stateside or Japanese license) were sent to the motor pool and ended up hitting the bay. The NCO set to task the soldiers out should have enough common sense to not send two inexperienced drivers by themselves.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2014 10:21 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 May 2014 10:21:30 -0400

No, some units do not have enough NCOs to meet that standard. Many times we have SPC (p) filling slots as team leaders and squad leaders. This requirement would be one more that only works on paper and sets honest leadership up for failure. (Fail the mission, or lie about the rank of soldiers in the vehicles).

Response by SGT Alfred Cox made May 28 at 2014 2:31 AM

SGT Alfred Cox — Wed, 28 May 2014 02:31:02 -0400

Yes.. regardless...An NCO must be present. Call it Micromanagement yes...but its peace of mind. Someone needs to be held accountable and its added insurance.

Response by SGT Alfred Cox made May 28 at 2014 2:33 AM

SGT Alfred Cox — Wed, 28 May 2014 02:33:00 -0400

plus let one accident happen... first words out there mouth is going to be.. why wasn't an NCO present.

Response by SPC Chicquila Cox made May 28 at 2014 2:43 AM

SPC Chicquila Cox — Wed, 28 May 2014 02:43:16 -0400

I feel that it is a "cover your a@#" policy. "All sugar honey ice tea rolls down hill". So if something does happen and an NCO is not present, what's the first question asked? Where was your NCO? 2nd, who is your NCO? So where does everything roll? Right back on you as an NCO. It does not have to be policy to be common sense. First rule of thumb, cover your own a@# first. It saves a lot of trouble for you. Just because you are above an E-5 pay grade does not leave you exempt from going out with them to cover your own a@#. You are not above doing something that you once had to do anyways. if there is no other NCO present, go get the job done efficiently and expeditiously.

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made May 28 at 2014 3:17 AM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Wed, 28 May 2014 03:17:46 -0400

Like SSgt Fair said if it is just moving the vic around then two LCpls can handle it. If you need to move a lot of weapons or high dollar or easily pilfered gear send a Cpl maybe a Sgt.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Aug 9 at 2014 8:54 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 20:54:12 -0400

No. I think an officer could handle it?