Should Army & Marines adopt the use of Enlisted JTACs from the Airforce?

2016-05-09T18:10:55-04:00

On todays Battlefield would it make sense to empower NCOs to be the shot callers on all CAS ordinance? What are your thoughts

Response by SSG(P) John Newcomb made May 9 at 2016 6:16 PM

2016-05-09T18:16:51-04:00

I would say to either allow the JTACs to jump in with the squads or train squad leaders on how to effectively call in strikes.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2016 6:30 PM

2016-05-09T18:30:03-04:00

Why would Marines do that, they already train small unit leaders in JTAC procedures and they use ANGLICO's and use FAC's with infantry units. They have no need for them, they also have their own aircraft.

Response by TSgt Michael Burns made May 9 at 2016 6:37 PM

2016-05-09T18:37:42-04:00

Already have.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made May 9 at 2016 7:03 PM

2016-05-09T19:03:39-04:00

Research
Joint Firepower control
and
Type 2 Terminal Aircraft control
What you suggest is not new, and already an option.

Response by SGT Matthew Einsla made May 10 at 2016 9:26 AM

2016-05-10T09:26:22-04:00

What am I missing here? When I was downrange we had enlisted JTACs from the Air Force attached to us.

Response by SSgt James Cottrell made May 10 at 2016 9:46 AM

2016-05-10T09:46:06-04:00

I served 3 tours in Nam in units with a combination of combat control. Officers flew 0-1's 0-2's, and OV-10s. The enlisted controllers drove jeeps and moved around, or were crew members on C-130 airborne command post.

Response by CPL Mathew Parris made May 10 at 2016 10:00 AM

2016-05-10T10:00:56-04:00

Same as what others have said when I was in Iraq 2008-09 we had 4 jtacs attached to my cav squadron so what's changed this time

Response by SSG Ken Gilder made May 10 at 2016 11:03 AM

2016-05-10T11:03:31-04:00

If they know what they are doing, and can get the ordnance on target, then yes.

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made May 10 at 2016 11:50 AM

2016-05-10T11:50:36-04:00

Well I serve in the Marine Corps I was part of a T.A.C.P. , unit for those of you that are not familiar with the acronym it means tactical air control party. We didn't have an officer with us because we were train to call air strikes after we've identify the target , plotted the grid coordinates, IP and specified what kind of ordinance we needed according to the situation.
If they had an aircraft available then they would send it the only officer in the whole mixed was the pilot. But you better know what you're doing because you can call and air strike on yourself if you don't know how to read a map. Even though everything's electronic now , satellite Communications, microwave signal blah blah blah if all that get blasted away in a fire fight you will need a good old fashioned map and a good old fashioned compass into flight your position and Grill coordinates to complete the mission after I went through all of that I would only allowed an NCO's in a limited sense to have the authority to call in air strikes .

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 2:00 PM

2016-05-10T14:00:21-04:00

I would like to point out that you are asking for CAS "law?" An ordinance is a law, ordnance will kill you.

Response by 1LT Tom Welch made May 10 at 2016 2:34 PM

2016-05-10T14:34:31-04:00

this only makes sense for NCO's. Airforce NCO's have done this for decades, only officers with control and trust issues due to their own lack of integrity or fear for their job want this, The man on the ground couldn't care less about rank during a firefight, protect your buddies, in my opinion NCO's have a better grasp of this due to their experience.

Response by GySgt David Andrews made May 10 at 2016 4:50 PM

2016-05-10T16:50:35-04:00

Do we not already have JTAC qualified Army and Marine personal ? I think we do.

Response by MAJ F. Patrick Filbert made May 10 at 2016 5:46 PM

2016-05-10T17:46:58-04:00

We've got JFOs in the Army that are, often, the "eyes forward" for the JTACs and that's been in place since mid-last decade if not earlier.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 5:54 PM

2016-05-10T17:54:05-04:00

I highly suggest you look up ANGLICO and FAC.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 11:11 PM

2016-05-10T23:11:46-04:00

SSG Winkler, perhaps I'm confused by your question - Marine Corps and Air Force JTACS are currently integrated with our Squadron S-3 in the Fires cell.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2016 11:47 PM

2016-05-10T23:47:10-04:00

To address the original question, the Army has already adopted the use of AF JTACs. So has the Navy. To my knowledge, the Army has no school that certifies or properly trains Soldiers in CAS control. The Marines DO have their own JTACs. They are pilots that fly aircraft that perform CAS. They are required to learn the ground mission prior to or adjacent to their aircraft training. It's a very good training mode in my opinion. Any Marine, jump in here if I'm not up to date.

As far as them being Enlisted vs. Officer, it makes no difference. As long as the JTAC can control the stack, the operation will go smoothly.

Response by Maj Wayne Dahlke made May 11 at 2016 5:59 AM

2016-05-11T05:59:30-04:00

As many on here have already stated, this already happens. My confusion is that you think the NCO's are NOT already doing this? The Ground Force Commander, whoever that is (officer or enlisted), is typically the release authority for certain types of ordinance (direct fire weapons, normally) depending on stated ROE for that theater.

If you are asking why the Army and Marines do not have JTAC qualified personnel, then you need to do some research....they have these personnel already. Like Air Force Battlefield Airman who are JTAC qualified, they are rare. The training is intense, and the only ones I have dealt with personally have been attached to Special Operations units.

This Wiki is a pretty good overview of how each service goes about qualifying its JTACs,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_terminal_attack_controller

Cheers

Wayne

Joint terminal attack controller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A Joint terminal attack controller (JTAC) is the term used in the United States Armed Forces and some other military forces for a qualified service member who directs the action of combat aircraft engaged in close air support and other offensive air operations from a forward position. The term that is used in most other countries, as well as previously in the US and in the relevant NATO standard[1] is Forward Air Controller.[2] The term became...

Response by Sgt Jonathan J. made May 11 at 2016 10:30 AM

2016-05-11T10:30:29-04:00

Marine Corps already has its own enlisted JTACs along with the officers.

Response by TSgt Frederick Horne made May 11 at 2016 3:17 PM

2016-05-11T15:17:33-04:00

Both services already have enlisted JTACs.

Response by MSgt Phillip Freeman made May 11 at 2016 5:54 PM

2016-05-11T17:54:54-04:00

Let's just cover everyone here:

USMC Conventional: ANGLICO have Enlisted and Officer JTACs
SOF MARSOC have Enlisted and Officer JTACs.
USMC has a JTAC school

USA Conventional: integrate USAF TACPs. No JTAC program but they do have the JFO program.
SOF have Enlisted and Officer JTACs under the SOCOM program.
They attend SOTACC.

USN Conventional: RIVERON only met Enlisted bubbas but that's not to say they don't have an O.
SOF: WARCOM have Enlisted and Officer JTACs under the SOCOM Program
USN has a JTAC School

USAF Conventional: TACP (ASOS) they have Enlisted and Officer JTACs.
SOF CCT and TACP (STS) they have Enlisted and Officer JTACs.
USAF has a JTAC School
AFSOC owns SOCOMS School; SOTACC

Brrrrrrrt!

Response by MAJ Tex Hall made May 19 at 2016 6:04 PM

2016-05-19T18:04:48-04:00

Joint Firepower Control courses should be available to NCOs and Officers. Problem we had when I was active was that too many times the AF wouldn't allow other services ground forces to have terminal control of their aircraft. It was a struggle at times to get them to allow helo pilots to have terminal control. However, when I was a BDE FSO in Vicenza we did some GREAT training with the AC-130s and even our non-NCO Forward Observers got to have terminal control. We sure needed those Specter Boys since we didn't have much else in terms of indirect.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2016 5:26 AM

2016-07-20T05:26:17-04:00

NCO's? Ugh you other branches need to stop fixating on rank so much. We have great JTACs that E3 (USAF TACP)

And we already are the JTACs for the army, where have you been!? The marines should adopt us too. Their anglico's are not proficient.

Response by Maj Bo Wooden made Dec 24 at 2016 1:04 PM

2016-12-24T13:04:35-05:00

The Army already uses enlisted AF JTACs. The Marine Corps has its own program and is much broader than the AF program. The biggest difference is AF JTACS are not taught how to integrate rotary wing aircraft as CAS because the Army doesn't employ them that way and the Air Force doesn't have attack helicopters. Marine Corps FACs/JTACs are taught the integration of all aviation assets. Marine Corps enlisted JTACs must have 2 years of combat arms experience and be a SSgt or GySgt. The AF stopped using FACs because they didn't have the manpower. Regarding JFOs, the Marine Corps delegates and trains to the squad level.

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Oct 23 at 2017 3:37 PM

2017-10-23T15:37:40-04:00

Marines do have 'em... or did when i was in. Check out ANGLICO for 1st & 2nd MARDIV. 3rd MARDIV didn't have ANGLICO but we trained folks up & used 'em the same way.