Should Commanders be able to restrict Soldiers from certain awards due to rank?

2017-08-18T17:11:36-04:00

Response by SN Greg Wright made Aug 18 at 2017 5:13 PM

2017-08-18T17:13:58-04:00

You want to potentially tell an E-1 MoH awardee that s/he doesn't deserve it? I wouldn't.

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Aug 18 at 2017 5:28 PM

2017-08-18T17:28:19-04:00

The award is for an action or a history of service. Not rank. I put one of my junior sailors in for a Navy Commendation medal. I was looked at like I had 3 heads. Then I reminded people that we (the newest brightest DDG in the Fleet) would have looked like an idiot if we couldn't participate in the gun ex because our gun mount was down (said junior sailor single-handedly repaired it). And he wasn't a Combat Systems guy, he was an MR (Machinery Repairman). He got his well deserved medal.

Response by SSG Robert Webster made Aug 18 at 2017 5:38 PM

2017-08-18T17:38:13-04:00

Rank should not come into play but it does, and in one case it is codified in the regulations.
For those of you that have to ask - the referenced medals are the Distinguished Service Medals. Read the Criteria.

Response by Jordan Gaudard made Aug 18 at 2017 5:45 PM

2017-08-18T17:45:56-04:00

No one in the chain of command will admit that awards are given based off of rank, because they know that it's wrong. For an end of tour award, most believe SFC and above will get bronze stars, SSG and below will get ARCOM. Whatever the case may be, I believe if I write up a Soldier, SPC for example, for a Bronze Star it should say on the DA Form 638 recommended for Bronze Star, and then on the back it should read downgraded to ARCOM. Typically speaking, "they" request the award redone to say recommended for ARCOM. That is what annoys me the most.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2017 8:42 PM

2017-08-18T20:42:44-04:00

They can restrict awards all they want (if they have the authority for that particular award). That's why there is an appeal process which I'm sure most people don't utilize.

Response by LTC John Mohor made Aug 18 at 2017 9:00 PM

2017-08-18T21:00:58-04:00

100% in agreement on that one!

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Aug 18 at 2017 10:52 PM

2017-08-18T22:52:10-04:00

Some terms from AR 600-8-22 that bear on this topic:
Direct support
Services being supplied to participating forces in the area of eligibility by ground units, ships, and aircraft provided in involves actually entering the designated area of eligibility. This includes units, ships, and aircraft providing logistic, patrol, guard, reconnaissance, or other military support within the designate area of eligibility.

Distinguished himself or herself by
A person to have distinguished himself or herself must, by praiseworthy accomplishment, be set apart from other persons in the same or similar circumstances. Determination of this distinction requires careful consideration of exactly what is or was expected as the ordinary, routine, or customary behavior and accomplishment for individuals of like rank and experience for the circumstances involved.

Duty of great responsibility
Duty which, by virtue of the position held, carries the ultimate responsibility for the successful operation of a major command, activity, agency, installation, or project. The discharge of such duty must involve the acceptance and fulfillment of the obligation so as to greatly benefit the interests of the United States.

Duty of responsibility
Duty which, by virtue of the position held, carries a high degree of the responsibility for successful operation of a major command, activity, agency, installation, or project, or which requires the exercise of judgment and decision affecting plans, policies, operations, or the lives and well-being of others.

As a general commentary, the award approval authority for that award must be able to read the narrative and see that the perfmance of the SM was exemplary given the circumstances, personal risk and the circumstances (for valor awards), their level of performance, and their level of responsibility relative to the acts.....and if those acts have a positive impact at the award approving authority's level. Legion of Merit....must have three star/corps commanders "so what". Meritorious Service Medal and Air Medals must have Division Commander/2 star so what. ARCOM must pass BCT Commander so what. Etc. Valor awards actually have an articulated standard all based of the Medal of Honor.

Never say never, but the level of responsibility given to a Specialist or a Lieutenant may make it difficult to award a Legion Of Merit, but circumstances may present themselves where they might rise above all others and merit the award of a Silver Star.

I saw a Private First Class awarded an ARCOM for a single patrol at the NTC. His entire chan of command was taken out. He deemed himself senior and took command of a what was left of the platoon. He grabbed the LTs map, OPORD out of his "dead" leader's pocket, consolidated, reorganized, manned crew served weapons and continued the mission. His platoon took their assigned objective and secured key terrain.

I saw a Specialist awarded a MSM for her work as the S2 without an officer or NCO. She did all the assessments, pre patrol analysis, took all the patrol debriefs, volunteered for patrols to learn more so she could give better products to patrol leaders, she was assessing ground and air threats for air and ground operations. List goes on....her work enabled the BSB to deliver sustainment so that combat operations of the BCT were unhindered by logistics. HHQ were using her assessments and products to articulate situational awareness to the Division level for terrain, human terrain, and logistics impacts

Response by SSG Steven Mangus made Aug 19 at 2017 6:12 AM

2017-08-19T06:12:20-04:00

If the justification merits the recommendation rank should have nothing to do with the award received. Funny this question came up, same thing happened to me at Campbell. I was the last of the original crew to field OH-58Ds and my platoon leader asked what I would like as a PCS award, we'll I said an MSN and he said that was for E-7 and above..well of course I didn't appreciate his answer and commenced to giving his a bit of professional development..Needless to say I didn't get the MSN, although I did get a saber as a PCS gift..Air Cav!!

Response by SPC(P) Mark Newman made Aug 19 at 2017 7:55 AM

2017-08-19T07:55:34-04:00

Shouldn't the Army N/AF/M/CG decide who us and isn't eligible for a medal? There's already a perception among some jr. enlisted that officers already have easier access to awards. This would NOT help.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Aug 19 at 2017 9:40 AM

2017-08-19T09:40:01-04:00

I never entertained the rank thing for my commands. I did fire up the lawn mover when a Dept Head suggested I award an Achievement over a Commendation Gold Star because the ENL member didn't have an Achievement yet. So you have all sorts of weird notions out there. They just need to be slapped down when they arise. That said, there tends to be an award progression over time mostly driven by span of control, overall impact, etc. That's a reflection of our notion of increased responsibility when promoted.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2017 1:19 PM

2017-08-19T13:19:20-04:00

If they did the deed, give the award. If it's worthy of a BSMV you're going to bump it down to an ARCOMV? Seems like a BF move to me.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2017 1:25 PM

2017-08-19T13:25:48-04:00

First off, we have to throw the MoH examples out the window. It's an emotional response that has no validity when it comes to the other awards. Same thing with any award for Valor. We have to assume that we aren't talking about Valor awards because the write up speaks for itself. You either did something worthy of an MoH or you didn't...whether you are a private or a SFC or a MAJ. So we are talking about awards for service over a certain period of time or a achievement for a single event. That event or term of service has to have some kind of boundary to determine what is worthy of what level of award. This is where it gets subjective. So let's start at the top of the "service" type awards. The Legion of Merit. I'm starting at the top to show the level of authority and responsibility associated with this kind of award/medal. The Legion of Merit is usually awarded to Command Sergeants Major and General Officers for their service (sometimes only once for retirements). These officers and NCO's are awarded this for 1-3 years of service, usually in command of an organization starting at the size of a division (~25,000 Soldiers) to a Joint Task Force (could be from a division size up to ~200K Soldiers). Now...considering what kind of experience, responsibility, and STRATEGIC impact some of these positions have, the Legion of Merit is considered the standard (this is just an example...there are exceptions). Should a Colonel receive a LoM for commanding a Brigade? Sure...if their impact is commensurate with the examples provided. It happens. Sometimes it doesn't. It's a mix between MSM's and LoM's for Colonels and Brigade CSM's. So...we've just seen the next layer. Successful Brigade Command and CSM'age...is about a 50/50 LoM/MSM mix. The MSM makes its way down to the successful Battalion Command level as well, with the majority of LTC's getting an MSM when they leave their command after two years. Could a Captain or a Major receive an MSM...sure...but it their impact and performance needs to show the same general level of impact to the unit and the Army as that of a successful battalion commander or CSM. You kind of see where I am going with this. There has to be standards of performance, and it's based on IMPACT of the awardee. While it is NOT tied directly to rank, it's a mental construct to measure the performance or achievement of those being recommended for the award. You have to have a standard to picture and measure against, and it can't be in doctrine because it just doesn't fit every circumstance. If a private makes a significant STRATEGIC impact that is commensurate with what a general officer or Joint Task Force Command Sergeant Major makes, give that kid a Legion of Merit as his first award. Seriously. That's a hard sell however...and you had better know how to write an award. No one has mentioned that yet, but a lot of problems stem from the fact that the person writing the award couldn't write their name on a napkin with a sharpie without someone looking over their shoulder.

Response by SP5 Norman McGill made Aug 19 at 2017 4:20 PM

2017-08-19T16:20:27-04:00

Why would rank have anything to do with whether or not a soldier received an award?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2017 10:09 AM

2017-08-20T10:09:22-04:00

Regulation does not stipulate rank, if it's earned and the award is strongly written to reflect the actions of the service member, RANK DOES NOT MATTER

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Aug 21 at 2017 8:29 AM

2017-08-21T08:29:21-04:00

If a SM goes above and beyond the call of duty then that SM deserves it regardless of rank.

Response by 1SG Robert Rush made Aug 21 at 2017 2:53 PM

2017-08-21T14:53:15-04:00

The determination of awards are set forth in the AR's. Anyone can put another person in for an award as long as them meet the prerequisites for that award. That is the way it was while I was in. Now I don't know if the AR's for awards were changed since I retired or not.

Response by MSgt James Mullis made Aug 21 at 2017 5:55 PM

2017-08-21T17:55:45-04:00

Twice in my career I had Squadron Commanders (both Majors) and their lackey First Sergeants try to stop awards based on "unofficial" grade -for- Decoration policies. Both times the awards were pushed over their heads (by Colonels) and were eventually approved by the Numbered AF Commanders.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jan 7 at 2022 2:42 AM

2022-01-07T02:42:05-05:00

I was put in for a MSM by a Colonel on the General Staff of 2d Infantry Division. The Cheif of Staff agreed. The DIVISION Command Sergeant Major stomped it. The Division Commander would not go against the Sergeant Major. The routing slip had written on it..."Staff Sergeants don't get MSMs. CSM XXXXXXXXX."
My question remains why does the Command Sergeant Major have ANYTHING to say on an award put in by an O-6 Colonel? Then, after I had seen the packet, the Colonel made a big deal about giving me my 9th ARCOM. "No thanks sir, I already got 8 of those...That MSM was for doing the work you gave to my boss who DEROSED after a year and did not do it and I did it for you in 5 weeks. He got an MSM for sitting on his ass for a year...Some Reward"