Should Commanders with award approval authority be authorized to revoke earned awards?

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 22:53:40 -0500

HRC recently sent a MILPER message out on 5 JAN 2015 reminding Commander's of their authority to revoke awards.

This makes sense for situations where the Soldier was erroneously awarded a medal or falsified documents or details in order to receive the award, but what about for Soldiers who earned the award by meeting the requirements but unfortunately had some type of unfavorable event not related to the award?

For example, a Soldier is awarded a ARCOM with "V" device for actions in combat and while home on R&R receives a domestic violence charge at home. Should a Commander be able to revoke his ARCOM-V?

Your awards and badges can be revoked for misconduct

Regulations require award revocations for misconduct

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2015 10:55 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 22:55:12 -0500

I am not sure this would be a good idea due to bias.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Jan 18 at 2015 11:01 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Sun, 18 Jan 2015 23:01:59 -0500

Error yes, otherwise no.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2015 12:16 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 00:16:03 -0500

If I recall correctly, the regulation states that the entire period of the award must be honorable, and that if the Soldier dishonors himself in a manner that brings discredit to the decoration or the military service, the approval authority (or higher) can revoke it.
If you think about it, this makes sense. Honoring a Soldier who subsequently does wrong sends the wrong message to the formation.
I think prudence and judgment come into play, but at the very least a review is in order. You don't take away medals because you don't like a guy or to spite him, but the Soldier must comport himself in an honorable way during and after the action or he does not deserve an award.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Jan 19 at 2015 1:29 AM

LCpl Mark Lefler — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 01:29:29 -0500

If someones earned something, they've earned it and nothing can take that away... bad conduct is a whole different issue with different procedures to deal with it.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2015 2:54 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 02:54:35 -0500

I prepare to put on a flame suit but if the actions of the Soldier are directly against the requirements for award of the medal then maybe they should be taken away. I see this especially pertinent if someone claims awards after military life that they would, at some time, become ineligible to receive. As for false award of medals and such, of course they should be revoked as they were not earned.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2015 4:53 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 16:53:03 -0500

This has to be a joke or some kind of provocation to gauge public response. I understand revoking awards that were later determined to based on fraudulent or criminal activity. But revoking legitimate medals for discipline infractions or serious offenses committed afterwards? Are we going to end up revoking citizenship because someone is deemed "unpatriotic?"
What desk genius came up with the idea of taking away a medal for valor because the often neglected soldier made a bad decision later? Even if it is a Commendation Medal or a Bronze Star for service achievement, it could be taken away because someone has been recently notoriously late for PT or even had a DUI?
Apropos, could use that energy to address the root cause of the overinflated and out of control award system. The stack of ribbons on some senior SM is so high that pretty soon it will reach over the shoulder and continue on the back of the uniform. Ribbons for being in the military, medals for doing the job, or winning video games...why don't we have one yet for the sharpest uniform beauty contest? We have one thing in common with the old soviet military - the award and recognition trinkets make us look like Christmas trees. Recognizing achievements and skills is right but, I am afraid, we have taken it too far, thus “cheapening” what we set out to recognize. Just an opinion...

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 2:04 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 02:04:56 -0500

MSG Private RallyPoint Member That's a tough one....I would have to say, especially in your example of the ARCOM - V. That award would be for a specific incident, so outside considerations should not be taken into account.

I would also go as far as to argue that even Soldiers who are not eligible due to Flags, Adverse Action, whatever, should be allowed to receive awards for specific incidents, especially if it is a combat related award, such as the ARCOM-V.

Also, I would go further to say a Soldier who continues to Soldier-On while flagged for adverse action, should be allowed to receive an incident specific award if it is part of a test or inspection. Example would be a Howitzer section winning Best-By-Test and the entire Crew receiving AAMs. Why not allow the Soldier, who is flagged for whatever, be allowed to be recognized with his / her crew...they contributed to the winning. It could be part of the "rehab" of the Soldier.

All in all, I think commander's should have the authority, but each incident should be looked at on its merit. And that there is not one blanket answer.

Response by SPC Dennis DeVey made Jan 20 at 2015 1:45 PM

SPC Dennis DeVey — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 13:45:49 -0500

In error yes but "earned" not by them what's awarded it's donr

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Jan 22 at 2015 5:48 AM

SPC James Mcneil — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 05:48:30 -0500

My concern is how easily an authority could be abused. Yes, officers are professionals. No, they are not likely to abuse such an authority. But my concern is still there. While I have worked with some of the best leaders in the world, I have also worked with some of the worst. And having something like this hanging over the head of the soldier could very easily lead the soldier to not be willing to go "above and beyond the call of duty" which causes everyone to suffer. After all, why work hard to earn an award if you know it can be taken back?

Maybe I'm reading this wrong.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2015 6:33 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 06:33:33 -0500

a man once picked up a gun and returned fire while getting shot seven times so his team could get out of a hot spot. he lived. he was awarded a bronze star. he came home a little messed up. maybe the images in his head, maybe the screams of his troops, maybe the demons lurking behind his eyes. he sought comfort in booze and weed. it didnt cure him. it just made those damned devils drunk and high enough that this hero could get some sleep. one night that hero picked up a gun and try to suck start it. he didnt have the balls to finish himself off. so he took a little drive. faster he went, as the devil was chasing him. up until the point when he blew through a stop sign, killing another. do you take his medal?

that award was earned. at one point, this man was everything. he may be going through somethings that have made him a little less than he once was. you dont tear him down more.

if you want to know if this story is true, i left out some key elements. so that way you will google it and you will see how many times things like this have actually happened.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2015 2:48 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 Feb 2015 14:48:04 -0500

I think the whole point here is to prevent people for being rewarded for their misconduct.

There are a couple of scenarios where this could happen.

Take the AF Chief who is being forced to retire as a Senior. The one did 14 days in jail on 6 month sentence. Lets say while he concluded his recruiter duty he was awarded the MSM. After the fact they find out he got the award. Then that would be a case where it would be appropriate to pull the award.

The article stated that commanders cant just capriciously strip people of their medals and that the act has to have occurred in that time period.

Take a valor award for instance. When would it be appropriate to pull that award?

Hmm, one might say never. Take this scenario.

Lets suppose SSGT Beetle Bailey is a patrol leader of and is sent out on scout missions with a crew. Lets say he is taking surplus items from supply to sell in the civilian market to some shop owner in a small village. While on his way to his objective he and his crew decide to take a small detour off their route to said village. During the transaction they get ambushed by some insurgents. Two of his men are now injured. He decides to take action risks his own life takes out the all of the terrorists. Gets his men evacuated to safety. After the fact he is put in for a Silver Star for heroism. The CID is conducting an investigation of known stolen military goods being sold to the local nationals. They determine it was him and his crew. He now is being court martialed for stolen government property. Failure to follow orders by going off mission and a few other charges the JAG can pull out of the sack.

Would it appropriate to pull his Silver Star, since it was due to a specific action that resulted out of a criminal enterprise? One could argue that specific ambush would not have happened if he stayed on mission. Him getting the SS could be rewarding him for negligence that occurred while going of the beaten path to commit a crime.

Response by CPO Greg Frazho made Feb 18 at 2015 11:28 AM

CPO Greg Frazho — Wed, 18 Feb 2015 11:28:33 -0500

A commander should be able to nullify anything within his/her power to make happen. If the commander can award a Commendation Medal and it later turns out that the citation and/or summary of action was falsified, exaggerated or unsubstantiated, then, yes, that same person should have the right to undo what has been done.

On a personal note, that's where quality control comes in. If the administrative sections and the submitting persons do their homework thoroughly and can corroborate everything they claim, this should be a fairly exceptional matter.

But remember this: a bunch of Medals of Honor were rescinded in the 1910s after the War Department took a long, hard, fresh look at some of the citations. What is done can also be undone.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2015 7:46 PM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 19:46:36 -0500

When I left the Army, I found out that I had been awarded a Purple Heart. My record even had the date of the wounding and date of award. When I questioned it, I was told, "Well, you got it when you earned the Bronze Star!"

Problem was that I wasn't wounded... not even blisters from sand in my boots.

I went to our Brigade Commander with the award docs and my medical record (now THAT was hard to get!!). I explained the situation, he called in the CSM and I repeated it all. They said, "You could just let it slide..." and I adamantly refused - as I hadn't earned the award.

They were relieved - and I had revocation orders in my hand that afternoon. It wasn't difficult at all.

There's a BIG difference between admin errors and subjective opinions on what merits an award. I've seen people get Certificates of Achievement and Commendation Medals for the exact same actions... in the same units... all based on who the command liked and who they didn't.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 15 at 2016 6:53 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Jan 2016 18:53:20 -0500

If an award is given for meritorious service over a period of time and something negative comes to light from that period, the award should be reevaluated by the signing authority for that award. However, valor awards should not be stripped unless new information comes forth regarding the specific action that lead to the award.

Response by SPC Stephen Gerard made Jan 15 at 2016 8:45 PM

SPC Stephen Gerard — Fri, 15 Jan 2016 20:45:26 -0500

No, of course not! In fact, even being flagged for just about anything should also not prevent a soldier from receiving an award for valor. Bravery doesn't take a day off just because the man pulling the trigger or providing aid under fire is fat, slow, or an ***hole. The only time, like you've mentioned, is when there was a mistake made - but that's understandable even from the SM's point-of-view.
While on deployment I made a couple of mistakes that involved violating general order 1B for consumption of alcohol under the zero-tolerance policy. Fair enough, I knew better and took my reduction in rank, and continued back on patrol without a set of stripes on my chest the next day following the article 15 hearing. About 4 months later, during the award ceremony, I was passed over for everything (GCM, AAM/ARCOM, end-of-tour award stuff), and given a COA instead. Another couple of weeks passed, and someone was knocking on my B-HUT door and hands me an ARCOM-"V" and left (I knew the person, but that's not important). I was called into my battalion commander's office after someone overheard me talking about it with another soldier (I was surprised to receive that, to say the least). He never directly threatened to "take it away," but that was the impression that I got. He, along with the HHC 1SG, and commander (who both were "on my side" - figuratively and literally), and I were standing there answering to how I was awarded the medal to begin with. It was submitted by a company commander from an ARNG unit, which was connected to us for a little bit. I never knew the medal was submitted, and at that point I felt really small.
My assumption is that he thought I didn't deserve it, and was looking for a reason to do something about it - but what? I have no idea.

Eh, that probably didn't make much sense...

Stephen

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2016 12:49 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 00:49:33 -0500

My understanding from the article is that if information later comes to light that, if known at the time, would have prevented an award being given in the first place, then you can revoke the award. You can't take away an award from 10 years ago as punishment for something a service member did last month.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2018 12:00 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Feb 2018 12:00:45 -0500

No. Unless falsely earned. UCMJ has other forms of punishment. We don't need to create a new category. If you earned it in the past, your present actions disgrace your character not what you already accomplished in the past.

Response by CPT William Jones made Jul 21 at 2019 12:26 AM

CPT William Jones — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 00:26:54 -0400

If the Medal been checked and awarded. He met all criteria established and received it. No one including the CiC should be able to revoke it regardless of what the soldier does later. If it is still in the process there are procedures in place to deal with it. but even then If considering to revoke should be tied to the actions he was doing, IE medal under consideration a Silver Star * months ago yesterday he got crossways and did something deserving some sort of action by the chain of command. If a court martial is not in order the medal award process should continue as normal without the bad action even being considered. I have no problem with passing out a Valor award and an art 15 at the same ceremony.