Should conduct after being awarded a medal be used to take away medals and badges?

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Feb 2015 23:56:35 -0500

Recently there have been Special Operations servicemen who have allegedly committed crimes of fraud and potentially murder. Should their conduct after receiving their elite status (Green Beret and Navy Seal Trident) or medals be reason enough to strip them of them? Should it matter if they are still in the service, retired, or ETS'd?

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Feb 7 at 2015 12:31 AM

COL Vincent Stoneking — Sat, 07 Feb 2015 00:31:10 -0500

The published policy is only the discovery of facts that would have caused the awarding authorities to not issue the award in the first place. Ie something that they had already done that simply wasn't known at the time. Subsequent conduct cannot erase the meritorious actions.

It can make the person a low-down bastard, but a low-down bastard who once did something good.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2015 1:47 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 Feb 2015 01:47:56 -0500

LTC Private RallyPoint Member. As far as an award . . . as long as there is no mistake regarding the facts on which the award was based . . . it should not be taken away . . . it is a historic fact.

With respect to promotions and membership in elite organizations . . . having once held a specific rank or membership is a historic fact . . . but that rank or membership may he revocable.

Warmest Regards, Sandy

Response by SPC Christopher McClaskey made Feb 7 at 2015 11:53 AM

SPC Christopher McClaskey — Sat, 07 Feb 2015 11:53:13 -0500

You know this is a hard on there are two sides of this we have had this issue before in the Oklahoma city bombing this question was asked i dont agree with what he did but had nothing to do with what he did in the army in his past and even if they go bat crazy after the fact makes them no less then what they was before

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 7 at 2015 12:31 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sat, 07 Feb 2015 12:31:58 -0500

The award is for a specific act, or period of service. Unless that act or period of service is called into question, then revoking the award is wrong.

Let's take a look at some of the types of awards, and use them for comparison.

- Marksmanship awards (Naval Services): Hard to justify removal if they earned them.
- Service and training awards: These include PME, Sea Service, Drill Instructor, Recruiting. Again hard to justify removal unless you can show cause later that the tour wasn't actually successful.
- Campaign and service medals: You either participated or your didn't.
- Service awards: Includes Good Conduct medals. The standards are pretty clear.
- Unit awards: You were either a member of the Unit when it was awarded, or you weren't.

That leaves

- Personal decorations: Let's work under the assumption these are going to be Valor or Non-Valor.

For Valor Awards, the idea of revoking someone of their awards, not related to the specific act is so vile, I cannot put it into words.

Non-Valor Awards are either Impact (specific act) or Service (period). For an Impact, unless it was shown that during commission of the act that earned them the award they did something that would have prevented them being recognized in the first place, the award should be left alone. I believe the regulations already account for that.

For Service, the same general philosophy applies. Unless the period in which they earned an award is questioned (and the specific duties mentioned for the award), there shouldn't be a reason to revoke said award.

Revoking awards is just bad form. It should never be a matter of policy. Always the exception rather than the rule, and the extreme exception at that.

Response by COL Ted Mc made Feb 7 at 2015 1:24 PM

COL Ted Mc — Sat, 07 Feb 2015 13:24:33 -0500

I agree with Sandy.

I'll also point out that some things are revocable retroactively (witness Canada's revocation of Russell William's commission after his conviction for sexual assaults and murders).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2015 5:31 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 Feb 2015 17:31:09 -0500

I relegate this in my mind to something akin to what the NFL Hall of Fame voters go through prior to electing a former player into the NFL HOF. What these voters are supposed to do is to only take what the player did on the field, and leave any off the field distractions out of the decision. We all know if these voters took off the field actions into consideration, there'd be no players in NFL HOF.
Take for example, Hall of Famer Michael Irvin. On the field, he was an electric player, dynamic, one of the best to ever play wide receiver (hence his election into the HOF). However, his off the field antics showed him to be a not so mature guy, he did drugs and paid for prostitutes, pretty much like a lot of those guys (not everyone). The HOF voters though didn't look at his off the field body of work, and thus he was allowed to be voted it. At the time of his voting in, it was controversial, due to his actions off the field. Today, no one talks about it.
I agree with 1LT Sandy Annala, once that award has been earned, it's the SM's award. That award has become a part of the SM's permanent record. "Off the field" actions should only ever be taken into account during consideration for receiving a current or subsequent award for a different act.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Feb 7 at 2015 10:18 PM

SPC(P) Jay Heenan — Sat, 07 Feb 2015 22:18:22 -0500

The award was written and approved, leave it alone. Now if a SM screws up, get them for that, but leave previously approved awards alone. If the actions that the SM is getting in trouble for happened at the same time as the award was given, then depending on the situation, I suppose it could be revoked.

Response by SSG Leonard J W. made Feb 8 at 2015 1:18 AM

SSG Leonard J W. — Sun, 08 Feb 2015 01:18:15 -0500

LTC Private RallyPoint Member, this is a great question, sir. I have two opinions.

Concerning awards: I personally believe that their actions earned them the medals that they wear. Now, if someone fraudently earned a medal, then the award should be amended/rescinded. However, if the award was truly earned, then their actions following the award should have no impact toward a rescission.

Concerning status: I also believe that becoming a member of the special operations community is not easily done. The badge is earned. The SOF community obviously does things differently than the rest of the military, but they also do different things than the rest of the military. The military's top 1% should always carry themselves in a way that the public would respect and understand. Once they stop doing that, then it may be time to take a knee. If the actions are dishonorable enough, then please take the appropriate actions (i.e. UCMJ, court martial, DHD, etc.), but the award of the badge or tab should still be theirs.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2015 1:51 AM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Feb 2015 01:51:59 -0500

The status of service with honor and distinction go with those titles. If a person has earned them by fraud or a disrespect to what these units stand and the pride their status commands.

This is not a pride of just something given, this is the pride of something earned, not just a piece of hardware for a uniform, a place in a persons character. If they don't have that as part of their character, they do not deserve the title.

I have seen submariners stripped of their dolphins over and over again and also those after service if there was something that was a reflection of not genuinely earning that award. The award is much more than just going to sea on a submarine or even qualification on the parts of the boat. The title Submariner is earned and is lost by the character of the person claiming that distinction.

Now that does not take away from the submarine service or training and deployments. Simply takes away the right to continue wearing the designation as part of character.

That is a real hard one, having not been in the other communities, I can only speak for my own and the folks I have spoken with over the years on this one. This is hard, real hard. The way of the community to once and forever stand strong and united.

Response by CDR Michael Goldschmidt made Sep 2 at 2015 5:45 PM

CDR Michael Goldschmidt — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 17:45:28 -0400

To me, that's a no brainer! Absolutely NOT!!!

Response by SFC Maury Gonzalez made Sep 2 at 2015 6:34 PM

SFC Maury Gonzalez — Wed, 02 Sep 2015 18:34:18 -0400

Back in my airborne days (83-86 & 89-91) if you terminated you jump status voluntarily or by mischief you jump badge was revoked

Response by SN Matthew Goforth made Mar 7 at 2016 6:01 PM

SN Matthew Goforth — Mon, 07 Mar 2016 18:01:48 -0500

Unless it is proven that the awarded medal or elite status is itself in question they should NOT be revoked. If they are still in active service then the UCMJ would decide if the punishment included removal of awards and status.

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Nov 19 at 2019 2:20 PM

SSgt Boyd Herrst — Tue, 19 Nov 2019 14:20:18 -0500

You have 2 standards .. one for Military and 1 for civilians.. it have to be pretty egrigious for a civilian to lose an award after retirement. It will/may put them in the hall of shame in Their acquaintances mind..

Response by SSG Robert "Rob" Wentworth made Nov 29 at 2019 2:20 PM

SSG Robert "Rob" Wentworth — Fri, 29 Nov 2019 14:20:34 -0500

Once an award is received, it’s kept. If a SM is found guilty of an infraction i.e. of the UCMJ,afterwards, that’s why we built Ft. Riley & Ft Leavenworth.

Response by SP5 Gary Perkins made Jan 8 at 2021 1:25 PM

SP5 Gary Perkins — Fri, 08 Jan 2021 13:25:23 -0500

An Honorable Discharged vet loses the right to be buried in VA cemetery if convicted of certain felonies in state or federal court!