Should Cyber Warriors be exempt from combat training?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 10:12:14 -0500

The commander of the US Army Combined Arms Center, LTG Brown said, "They grew up on Google and wear ponytails. We need to look at ways to bring them into the Army without necessarily going through the same training procedures as our combat troops."

Should we make exemptions for cyber soldiers or should all soldiers be expected to conduct combat training? Should these soldier be required to qualify with weapons and pass the APFT?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11289977/Google-generation-US-Army-cyber-warriors-may-be-excused-combat-training.html

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 10:31 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 10:31:00 -0500

There may be something to be said for this idea, SSG Private RallyPoint Member. Maybe a sort of MAVNI program for people who can bring cyber and other expertise to the military, but will never see actual combat. I could get behind this idea (if I had a vote).

On a separate note, even with the expertise, in my opinion it's policy and legal issues that are stopping us from winning the cyber war. We have a self-imposed set of Geneva Conventions in cyberspace, and China, Russia, Iran, and North Korea do not. In other words, we're fighting with one hand tied behind our back.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Jan 12 at 2015 10:26 AM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 10:26:18 -0500

As a cyber type guy, I will put this out there. I completely agree with this part of the article.

"Analysts have warned that the common military career of rotating through many jobs could also harm attempts to build up deep specialist expertise in the area.

Thomas Rid, a reader in War Studies at King's College in London, said: “To build up the skill set needed to be considered a good operator in this space, you need a lot of exposure to the technical side. It’s difficult to rotate into very different positions as you would usually do in a military career.”

Cyber is one of those field that within the military you get promoted out of being "operational" by the E6 level for most units. PCSing to different units with different missions starts that learning cycle all over again. If there was a field that would benefit from bringing back the "specialist 4-7" ranks, cyber is it.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Jan 12 at 2015 5:13 PM

SGT Jim Z. — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 17:13:06 -0500

Once you make an exception for one MOS you have to do it for all thus lowering the standards. No they should go through the same combat training that they currently go through.

Response by CW5 Jim Steddum made Jan 12 at 2015 5:15 PM

CW5 Jim Steddum — Mon, 12 Jan 2015 17:15:02 -0500

Would that not be called General Schedule?

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Jan 14 at 2015 2:01 PM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Wed, 14 Jan 2015 14:01:43 -0500

In a word .. No.

All soldiers, regardless of MOS, should possess the basic combat skills currently required. If not, they should be contractors, not military.

I remember someone telling me once that one of the missions of the Division Band was to assist in providing security for the Division Headquarters. As the Secretary of the General Staff of the 1st Infantry Division ("Big Red One"), I told the bandmaster that I expected his flute player to "wrap barbed wire around her flute and stick it up the enemy's ass", if that is what it took to ensure security was maintained.

We do not need pseudo-military personnel. Be military or be civilian.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jan 16 at 2015 2:36 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 02:36:19 -0500

Nope, they can train, 20k road march, APFT, throw a grenade or two, shoot a crew serve, and hump their laptop up a mountain.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2015 11:07 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 11:07:03 -0400

Well, why not just pay them as private contractors and avoid the question of exemption? Why do they need to enlist in the first place?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2015 11:15 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 11:15:56 -0400

If we have them skip the combat training, then i would not consider them soldiers. simply contractors. if they want them to wear the uniform then they need to go thru everything the rest of us did

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Mar 24 at 2015 3:25 PM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 15:25:05 -0400

Britain has been looking into similar for at least a few months, I recall reading about it before.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/lovesick-cyborg/2015/03/08/cyber-warriors-need-not-soldiers/#.VRG53-EvFBE

While I understand the perspective of this, it would also disrupt the professional force. If you plan to be outside of the fitness and combat standards, then why not just use contractors?

Cyber Warriors Need Not Be Soldiers - Lovesick Cyborg

The U.S. military considers easing physical fitness and combat training standards for cyber warriors who work with computers instead of guns.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Mar 24 at 2015 3:28 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 15:28:41 -0400

If there is a chance that they are going to be doing what they are do in theater, then yes. They need to know how to at least defend themselves, same as any support Soldier.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2015 4:49 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 16:49:58 -0400

First of, a soldier PRIMARY mission is to be able to pick up a weapon at any given time to not only defend the soldiers to their left and right but also to exterminate the threat that is putting them in harms way. Their second job is their MOS. If exceptions are made for "cyber warriors" then I believe they should not be given the title of soldier and should not wear the uniform that I proudly wear everyday. The answer is simple. Make an opening for them to be an attachment to the Army. Standards should be kept, not exempted!

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2015 5:03 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 17:03:42 -0400

I think the real problem would be discipline.

Can we be 100% sure those kids would be loyal and committed to the Armed Forces ?

It seems more like the Army is desperately seeking for help, because it lacks skills and knowledge..

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Mar 24 at 2015 5:05 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 17:05:22 -0400

If that is the approach to the problem, they should be called contractors.

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made Mar 24 at 2015 5:12 PM

GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 17:12:22 -0400

Response by TSgt Tim (lj) Littlejohn made Mar 24 at 2015 5:15 PM

TSgt Tim (lj) Littlejohn — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 17:15:17 -0400

In this day and age when a terrorist attack could come at any time in any place, firearm training is a must. Being physically fit, so as to be able go hours with out sleep, and defend your self. Cyber Warriors are very important to us. Please give them the training to stay alive.

Response by Cpl Michael Riordan, CISM, CISSP, CISA made Mar 24 at 2015 6:32 PM

Cpl Michael Riordan, CISM, CISSP, CISA — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 18:32:21 -0400

No way. I was a Marine and I'm an Information Security professional now. There is no reason with the proper training that military trained folks can't do the job just as good. Are we going to start reducing requirements for other MOSs? This sounds like a recruiting issue not an SOP issue.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Mar 24 at 2015 8:31 PM

Cpl Jeff N. — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 20:31:55 -0400

Cyber warriors...The term is offensive. It is an oxymoron. If they want to be in the Army they should be trained as soldiers. They should not get the uniform, rank and prestige without completing the training. Make the nerds GS employees and be done with it.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Mar 24 at 2015 10:40 PM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 22:40:01 -0400

Get a job with a contractor firm. Then they can wear the uniform without ARMY on it. If they're in the Army, then training is the same!

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 24 at 2015 11:14 PM

COL Charles Williams — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 23:14:55 -0400

Interesting... That depends on where they are and what they do. If they are going into theater, then thy need to be full fledged Soldiers First. If they are working from a bunker or vault in the US... then that is different... In the later case, that is why we have DA Civilians and Contractors.

Many cyber agencies in the Federal Government use young wiz-kid contractors to execute all the technical stuff.

If they are Soldiers... then we all live by the same standards.

Response by Maj Deborah Rey made Mar 25 at 2015 11:24 AM

Maj Deborah Rey — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 11:24:18 -0400

No they should not be exempt.

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made Mar 25 at 2015 4:10 PM

SSG Gerhard S. — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 16:10:12 -0400

If they're members of the military, they should go through a "Basic" training. If they're here to stay in safe zones and work with computers, etc, they should be hired as civilian contractors.

Response by SGT John Wesley made Mar 25 at 2015 5:20 PM

SGT John Wesley — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 17:20:29 -0400

I think we should use every asset available to us, and the "Cyber Warriors" should be Exempt from combat training. These people are not ever going to see real combat on the ground. We actually should employ them at a GS level and forgoe the uniform equivalent.

Response by PO1 Jesse Armstrong made Mar 26 at 2015 4:45 AM

PO1 Jesse Armstrong — Thu, 26 Mar 2015 04:45:54 -0400

All troops need combat training regardless of the MOS. It is what it is...Everyone needs to shoot a gun and apply first aid via first responder training.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jun 26 at 2015 3:29 PM

LTC Bink Romanick — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 15:29:16 -0400

Soldiers should be soldiers and be trained like soldiers.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 26 at 2015 3:37 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 15:37:14 -0400

They would be more valuable and well rounded if they know a modicum of tactics and strategy.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 21 at 2019 8:53 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:53:03 -0400

I don't care what the MOS is, soldiers need combat training. Look at all the soldiers in the Battle of The Bulge who became Infantry. A former army cook took on a German battalion by himself and ultimately earned the Medal of Honor. We need soldiers who have the skill to shoot, move, and communicate.