Should direct commission officers (Med, JAG, etc) be required to learn skills such as marksmanship and land navigation when commissioning?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 11:31:16 -0400

Coming from the enlisted side, I personally feel that we are all Soldiers 1st (or Marines, Sailors, Airmen) and that we all need at least a basic level of proficiency and some form of "basic training" should be required for all new Officers. I had a conversation with some folks who don't believe that limited duty officers need this type or training unless they are perhaps assigned to a line unit.

Response by SSG Diane R. made Jul 15 at 2017 11:36 AM

SSG Diane R. — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 11:36:41 -0400

I thought they were required to attend an officer's orientation course?

Response by LT Charles Baird made Jul 15 at 2017 12:19 PM

LT Charles Baird — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 12:19:43 -0400

I would say it depends - I was Direct Commissioned after 24 years of Enlisted service in both the Army and Air Force; Active Duty and Reserve - If they are not prior enlisted then maybe it would be beneficial.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Jul 15 at 2017 12:32 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 12:32:11 -0400

For the most part, if you're going to be in the mix, you'll need those skills. However, they system works hard to keep these assets away from situations that would require them. It's a business (time, money, return) decision. In my case, I was a prior ENL Navy (not taught at Boot) but going into the Seabees, the secondary school pushed those basics on us. So when push comes to shove, you focus your limited warfighter training assets on the actual warfighters.

Response by MSgt Jason McClish made Jul 15 at 2017 12:44 PM

MSgt Jason McClish — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 12:44:37 -0400

I'd say so. I'd imagine this falls under Basic warrior skills needed for every Soldier, regardless of job. There is likely to be an AR or similar publication that governs this. I know as an Army weather support Airman, we have yearly training requirements by the Army that ALL have to be trained to go to the field and deploy as a weapon system. Call us nerds all you want, but the Staff Weather Office that goes to the field or deploys with their Army counterpart, is a weapon system. Army leadership in that unit will understand that and agree. Anywho, back to the point, I'd say yes they should be. Heck, if the Air Force is required to do so when supporting the Army, why wouldn't their own service hold their own Soldiers to the same set of basic standards?

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Jul 15 at 2017 1:07 PM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 13:07:16 -0400

We had several officers that went through land nav. with us EM's.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Jul 15 at 2017 2:53 PM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 14:53:34 -0400

I am an AMEDD officer and shooting enthusiast I have thought for a longtime AMEDD either needs to shoot a lot more or not at all. Once a year for PROFIS & TO&E, none for TDA is a joke. I went to Afghanistan with an A2 20" barrel, what the hell is a nurse going to do with a 20" barrel? I will absolutely never shoot a rifle in combat for distance and rare in close quarters. We should never carry anything longer than a 16" barrel and that is easily effective to 100m. The AR platform is a complicated platform and AMEDD would be better with M14 with a 16" SOCOM barrel.; fewer parts to take apart and lose and without the complicated gas system. Worst case scenario, a nurse could use it as a club. Land nav as we do it, hell no. I am a private pilot and if I screw up, I die. That being said, I do not need to do grids down to 100m and being able to will not keep me from getting lost. Do all need to be able to read a map, absolutely and every officer on a convoy needs to know where we are at and where we are going as at any moment I could be in charge. We would be better served to identify direct commission officers that want to shoot and not require it for all as this is a safety issue. Those that don't want to learn a map, well you should never be allowed to drive more than 50miles from home installation because even in CONUS we would lose you...

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made Jul 15 at 2017 5:28 PM

SPC Casey Ashfield — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 17:28:59 -0400

Personally this is one area I feel Marines do better than any other branch. Regardless of their job, they have a better baseline of skills. The best medical officers I served with in the Army were the ones that had a desire to learn more and be better because they wore the uniform. I had a PA overseas that would hang out with us enlisted guys who wanted to learn map reading, how to use a DAGR, field strip his M4. His reasoning was very sound. He didn't understand why us enlisted practiced these skills so proficiently to become memory, that he as an officer over us wasn't required to learn.

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Jul 15 at 2017 6:18 PM

SSG Edward Tilton — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 18:18:42 -0400

Only if they value their lives. If you don't know the rules you shouldn't be there.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 15 at 2017 11:26 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 23:26:42 -0400

No. for doctors and Chaplin's they are non combatants under the Geneva convention. Chaplin's are not allowed to carry a weapon and can and have been removed from the Chaplin's for firing a weapon.

Response by SGT Eric Knutson made Jul 15 at 2017 11:45 PM

SGT Eric Knutson — Sat, 15 Jul 2017 23:45:43 -0400

Our Chaplain when I was with the 2/502 Chaplain (CPT Hennesly I believe was his name) got selected to go to SF and be a GP Chaplain, he refused to wear the beret until he had finished Q course. He was graduating while I was at Jackson going through reclass, so I headed up for his graduation, (Made the Commandants list from what I remember) In his words, "I will not try to minister to men whom I have not training equivalent with" Last I saw him, he was bucking for Ranger School and Scuba schools, but had his tab / beret, Airborne and AASLT wings. One of the best Chaplains I have ever met in or out of the service.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2017 2:38 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Jul 2017 14:38:25 -0400

Yes, you never know the situation you'll be in. Especially with the kind of warfare we have now, what are you going to do if the convoy gets hit while you're en route to another location? You pick up your weapon and fight. We don't have front lines anymore, and I know some people will get butt hurt about well that's what we have Combat Arms for or the Combat Arms guys will get butt hurt about us training for combat situations. That's a plan to fail mentality, and that gets people killed.

We have our various jobs that we have to be proficient at, but we need to train for and remember the basics of combat for the what if scenarios. How to call in a 9 line, how to do land nav, how to do basic first aid if the Medic isn't there, how to do BRM. We go home, or they do needs to be in our minds.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2017 6:42 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Jul 2017 18:42:38 -0400

I believe they should learn the basics. Being in the JAG Corps we have dual professions, the profession of being a Soldier and the profession of law. Being a Soldier comes first and foremost. I feel it should be this way with every MOS series though. We have different crafts but at the end of the day we are still Soldiers and must be able to do the basics.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made Jul 16 at 2017 6:51 PM

PO2 Skip Kirkwood — Sun, 16 Jul 2017 18:51:41 -0400

The Marines require that. Everybody (including JAGs, pilots, etc.) go to The Basic School. It's part of the Marine Corps ethos - every Marine a rifleman.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jul 16 at 2017 11:33 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Sun, 16 Jul 2017 23:33:22 -0400

All Direct Commissions attend a DIrect Commission Course. JAG goes to Benning. AMEDD go to Fort Sill OK. Chaplains go to a Basic Course at Jackson. They cover basic soldier skills. Took me 20 minutes on google to figure that out.

Chaplains can not be assigned a weapon or employ one. Several chaplains have been relieved over this and separated. My CJA was assigned a 9mm and went to the range as much as anyone else did. Medical small arms qualification depended on specific role.

You cut this with too wide a swath. Having conversant level of skill in Land Nav comes down to practice. The Chaplain and Lawyer in units I have been in have done what used to be known as COmmon task Training (now warrior tasks and drills). Are they rusty? Yep. That once a year is probably all they get.

You also have the whole TDA world which has a different set of training, mission, and equipment. They likely don't have weapons assigned in the TDA, so no qualification. mynGarrison did not have weapons for soldiers. Have to figure TDS and non TOE legal units are the same. MEDDAC/DENTAC are the same.

Response by SGT Christopher Hayden made Jul 19 at 2017 8:22 PM

SGT Christopher Hayden — Wed, 19 Jul 2017 20:22:21 -0400

Yes, or else they should have just become a civilian equivalent of their profession. Everyone wants to play Soldier until you have to do Soldier-y things, apparently.

Response by Cpl John Barker made Jul 19 at 2017 8:29 PM

Cpl John Barker — Wed, 19 Jul 2017 20:29:38 -0400

Slightly off topic, but is there a way to bypass the 30% rule? What I mean by this is that regardless of your discharge paperwork (I'm 1-A, Honorable) with the possible exception of the national guard, every recruiting office has told me that you cannot re-enlist above 30% (I am at 80%) I was one of those Corporals who saw the stupidity of my command, but decided that instead of complaining about it I would be better off to finish my degree and apply to OCS, yet I never knew I couldn't get back until my senior year of undergrad when I called up the recruiters