Should gender be a consideration for guard duty?

2016-04-10T16:42:10-04:00

Ok here is the situation: I am running a 11B ALC course and we got 5 soldiers attached to us from the finance BN and 2 of them are females. They have to rotate shifts for ammo guard. Since we are about to have the first female in the infantry is it wrong to have 1 female and 1 male do ammo guard.

Response by CPL Evan Garrison made Apr 10 at 2016 4:45 PM

2016-04-10T16:45:56-04:00

I want to say no, because as soldiers we are all professional and race, gender, nationality, etc should be irrelevant. But we also have a politically correct Army so there's no telling.

In my own opinion of females are allowed into combat arms professions than it would seem appropriate that men and women can be on guard together no matter the circumstance, since professionalism is key to our success.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2016 4:52 PM

2016-04-10T16:52:41-04:00

No it is not wrong at all. They are both soldiers. We need to stop treating females soldiers are a endanger species or high risk factor for our Risk Assessments. What I would do is ask a soldier in an MP unit the same question. They have been doing that for a quite a while. But if we can't trust a soldier not to attack another soldier than we are failing as a profession. I would also say the same thing if we fear that a female soldier is going to claim SHARP at the drop of the hat. If we just treat them as another soldier you may be surprised. I have always been infantry. I am now in a unit that has females in it due to being a training unit. I will say I would put her performance level above that of many soldiers I know. But as infantry so many fear what they don't know. In reality it shouldn't be an issue. I would just to be sure to put a responsible soldier on guard just as the same way as I would with male soldiers. I wouldn't want two PVTs guard ammo. I would like to see an NCO there. But all in all this isn't the first time a male and female soldier had to work togerther in a remote locaton.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2016 4:54 PM

2016-04-10T16:54:48-04:00

I also want to say no, due to the fact that if we are going to accept females in our MOS, then we need to start small and doing an ammo guard shift together would help out. As long as both male and female SMs are professional and can keep their minds focused on the mission at hand... Then I see nothing wrong with that. You're the SFC in charge and you make decisions based on how you see fit. Just have someone check in on them from time to time. Even send the other female soldier over to check with her. It's going to take a long time to get used to the change, but you're doing the right thing! Hooah!

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Apr 10 at 2016 5:25 PM

2016-04-10T17:25:25-04:00

No if it is a constant rotation of 1 and 1. I am appalled if that is the question.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2016 5:35 PM

2016-04-10T17:35:04-04:00

This should be a non issue.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2016 5:42 PM

2016-04-10T17:42:46-04:00

this is something new and needs to be tested, although there are some mos's were this has been going on for some time, my personnal experience primary and secondary mos is that that the females i served with are the best i could ever serve with professional and competent, there will always be something, just use good judgement

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2016 6:16 PM

2016-04-10T18:16:53-04:00

Absolutely not. Professionalism should be enforced and expected. There's a job to be done, and it will be.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2016 7:33 PM

2016-04-10T19:33:40-04:00

Realistically no it should not but in our Army today we should play to the side of caution. Too many times do jokes or phrases offend many people when they may have misunderstood or taken out of context. Also if a situation arises I would prefer to have a witness instead of depending on a he-said, she-said ordeal. Too often do males get the short end of the stick.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Apr 10 at 2016 8:44 PM

2016-04-10T20:44:02-04:00

Even when I was in, females were pulling guard duty - so what's the problem now?

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2016 8:47 PM

2016-04-10T20:47:41-04:00

I would say No, I come from a community that intergraded women in 1995 Navy Seabees. This took some time but we do same thing you guys do and we have armory watches, comm watches, ammo, camp rover watches and HQ watches and they are all mixed. The one thing we did do and there were several reasons not just the female thing but that was the biggest we stopped have a react watch while on deployment at our camps, we have are own camps on all the big Navy Bases we deployed to so security was on us with the big base providing back up. We stopped the react because the basses wanted primary security duties and quick response and I believe the other was the react had to stay in a react room over night for their watch and so I feel they stopped because they did not have facilities to mix the two. We have changed that and can do it now if needed and we do it in the forward FOB's when needed. I would say LT Rosa is locked on in what you should and you know your NCO's and they know theirs. I have a feeling that the ones they will send you will be the top performers because that is how it started with us the females were picked form Shore duty (This was the only duty that are females could do, because they could not be in battalion and deploy with us until 1995) jobs and were top performers. We also have them in the field like you guys will, in that case we do have female to female battle buddies, do to going to showers the latrine or as we all know porta potty and or four hole burn out. You guys are going to have to adjust but I think it will be ok. My suggestion is talk to the MP units and or Engineer 12C type units they have been doing this for a while. One more note: We deploy all over like Africa and South Central America and are mixed all the time.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Apr 10 at 2016 10:12 PM

2016-04-10T22:12:38-04:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member Not an entirely off the wall question. With all the gnashing of teeth over this issue in the past months and years, now that it is actually upon US it's understandable in the minds of some, if there is anything special about the way the policy is implemented, any special considerations, or anything you should know in your position as Course Manager so you can provide better guidance to your troops and help quell any uncertainties on their part. If, God forbid, you made any missteps in the integration of women into yr normal routine, be assured you would hear about it from many different people and directions. Better be safe than sorry and consult with yr COC to gain any insights or other forms of leadership from them before you tread where no one has trod before.

Response by MSgt John McGowan made Apr 10 at 2016 10:41 PM

2016-04-10T22:41:23-04:00

Gender should not be a factor in guard duty. The military is working hard to destroy any mention of gender in all paper work. May have already done it. I know the AF started years ago.

Response by GySgt Carl Rumbolo made Apr 11 at 2016 12:34 AM

2016-04-11T00:34:04-04:00

So why is this a question.....is there a leadership problem within the unit...are the individuals on guard duty too mature and you are afraid they will act immaturely? (then why are they in the service?)...or are we just trolling here to stir up more angst over women in the military. How about a better question.....are the male soldiers mature enough or are they still thinking with the little head?

JH Christ on a crutch....how about should a male and female stand watch together in a data center van all alone without supervision.... or should there be a male and a female on Staff duty overnight?

How about in the corporate world...dang, maybe I better re-think sending a male and a female co-worker on a two week trip to India...or let a male and female work together late at night.....

Maybe we should just put all women in burkas so there isn't a problem

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2016 4:36 AM

2016-04-11T04:36:53-04:00

The only question that needs to be asked is: Is she capable of safely doing the job? Not, she is a girl, is it wrong to let have her do it?

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Apr 11 at 2016 5:57 AM

2016-04-11T05:57:22-04:00

It is the right thing to do even if we had no Combat Arms females. Women have been performing guard duty as long as I can remember, Soldierly duties are Soldiers duties.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2016 6:25 AM

2016-04-11T06:25:08-04:00

As you state this is for an ALC course, that means it is governed by TRADOC.

According to TRADOC rules, male-female is an improper battle-buddy team. Heck, when I was in OCS, a male and female sitting on the same piece of furniture was considered "fraternization."

You would do well to check the TRADOC regs regarding pairing males and females for anything.

Or has TRADOC changed that much since 2010?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2016 9:45 AM

2016-04-11T09:45:58-04:00

Nope. Put them in the guard shift rotation. Equal treatment also means equal sharing of the crap details.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Apr 11 at 2016 10:39 AM

2016-04-11T10:39:59-04:00

Here is the truth, women will be volunteering for infantry, so using your logic is wrong, and also having a male and female is risky because you have to take in too account mother nature. Better yet have two females or a mixture of lesbian and male.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2016 12:23 PM

2016-04-11T12:23:29-04:00

No issues. Frankly, I've found that male-female battle buddies are a safer alternative than two females. If assault is an issue in your area, two women aren't going to be a deterrent.

Response by SFC Randy Purham made Apr 12 at 2016 6:01 AM

2016-04-12T06:01:19-04:00

I have been a firm believer in non-discrimatory practices. To answer your question. Unless either party feels unsafe that they may be harassed or attacked, then no other special accommodations should be made. They should be performing their duties in a professional manner, so gender should not be of question unless there were facility issues to consider. Even then, that's a stretch.

Response by SGT Rick Hyatt made Apr 12 at 2016 6:37 AM

2016-04-12T06:37:08-04:00

Having spent my entire 22 years in the combat engineers, we have had numerous support roles that were filled by women. Even though they were support roles they still were part of guard duty rotations and even slept out in the field with us. We have never had any issues. Leadership and professionalism goes a long way to ensure nothing negative happens.

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Apr 12 at 2016 7:11 AM

2016-04-12T07:11:04-04:00

Why not? They want into combat arms, you get all duty associated with it too.

Response by SSG Dale London made Apr 12 at 2016 7:32 AM

2016-04-12T07:32:11-04:00

Nope. If you can move and you can shoot you can guard. If you can't move or shoot, what are you doing in uniform? And as for a mixed guard -- if you can't control yourself the same question applies.

Response by LTC Lewis Cox made Apr 12 at 2016 7:38 AM

2016-04-12T07:38:32-04:00

I guarantee you she can pull a trigger all by herself! Let the young lady have at it!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2016 7:38 AM

2016-04-12T07:38:40-04:00

Nope. Stop looking at them by gender and start looking at them as Soldiers. Back when I was a PVT in the Marines the race issue was still a big deal. a crusty old Gunny told me there is only one color in the Marines....Green. You might have different shades of dark and light green but in the end it is all Green. The same concept applies.

Response by SSG Daniel Deiler made Apr 12 at 2016 7:42 AM

2016-04-12T07:42:46-04:00

If we're transforming into a force that allows for females to serve in traditionally male MOS's, then absolutely not. We are all Soldiers when we don our uniforms. Gender goes out the window; especially in light of the fact that despite anybody's personal feelings, we serve alongside those that are transgender.

Response by MSG Leslie Clark Ramsbacher made Apr 12 at 2016 7:56 AM

2016-04-12T07:56:22-04:00

No it shouldn't, in other MOS training if you need them to work together and be professional they do. They are professional and adults they will need to learn how to work as a team.

Response by SSG(P) Ell Pizarek made Apr 12 at 2016 8:20 AM

2016-04-12T08:20:35-04:00

While I served a period of time as an 11BP, I an strongly against females in the infantry. This boat has already sailed and life moves on. With the integration, I believe that once you build the duty or guard roster, you follow it and the names land where they be. Anything else would be counter productive to the integration. Not to be blind, the SOG needs to make his rounds at alternating times to keep everyone on their toes.

Response by Sgt Jason Walsh made Apr 12 at 2016 8:31 AM

2016-04-12T08:31:26-04:00

The more important question is, "Do the soldiers in your 11B ALC course have morals and values that they take seriously. I served over 10 years, Active Duty Marine Corps. We never stopped stressing the value and importance of leadership traits and core values. Bottom line is that leadership needs to reinforce that the United States Military as a whole is a PROFESSIONAL institution. Male or Female makes no difference. All must be professional at all times. Integrity and sound judgement is a must. If your soldiers dont take that seriously the answer is yes, it would be wrong to have a male and female do ammo guard. Simply because you cant trust them. Challenge them. Tell them you shouldn't be putting them on ammo guard together, however your giving them an opportunity to earn trust and show their leadership ability. Leave it up to them to prove you wrong. Better to expose strengths and weaknesses now in a training environment rather than in theater

SGT Jason Walsh
USMC

Response by SFC Clark Adams made Apr 12 at 2016 8:33 AM

2016-04-12T08:33:59-04:00

They are Soldiers, Guard Duty is a basic task for every Soldier let them perform their duties!!

Response by SSG Leroy Farmer made Apr 12 at 2016 8:38 AM

2016-04-12T08:38:23-04:00

Fair question. We are talking about a controlled area in garrison. There shouldn't be any reason a female couldn't perform the duties. As for the male and female performing the duty as a team, they are in an advanced NCOES. If they cannot behave like professional soldiers, it's better to be discovered now rather than when they get that extra rocker.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2016 8:55 AM

2016-04-12T08:55:30-04:00

IMHO - equality should be about seeing males and females as the same, from all aspects. Let them serve and support as equals.

IF there happens to be a problem, it should not be one that all people of that gender should be punished for equally, that would violate the ethics inherent in equality and invalidate the exercise in the first place. The problem should be handled at the lowest level possible and a punishment should be served that only affects the violators.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2016 9:06 AM

2016-04-12T09:06:21-04:00

Gender roles shouldn't be an issue in the military. I just learned this recently during an FTX when we had a simulated KIA that I had to fireman's carry out of the woods. I asked the female "permission to touch?" because I had to position myself to lift her up and an Senior NCO overheard me who said "just do it, she's a soldier!"

Response by MSG Douglas Tolliver made Apr 12 at 2016 9:14 AM

2016-04-12T09:14:28-04:00

No. I ran into an issue when I was stationed in Italy. Our supply sergeant, a female, came to me and told me that the first sergeant wanted me to give her two Soldiers for a detail in the warehouse. I asked for volunteers and I got two one of which was a female Specialist who probably weigh no more than a 100 pounds. Later, The Supply Sergeant came to me and complained because I did not send her two male soldiers. I reminded her that she only asked me for two soldiers and I complied. If we're going to insist that females be treated exactly the same in the military then males and females need to start operating together. We can't keep having discussions about gender roles come up. Females are going to adapt. Females in the Infantry will have to perform exactly the same as the males in Infantry and males are going to have to accept that for now at least. This includes tasks as mundane as guard duty. So I guess whoever the sergeant of the Guard is it just going to have to keep checking up on the males and females that are on ammo guard.

Response by Cpl Amilcar Mendieta made Apr 12 at 2016 9:19 AM

2016-04-12T09:19:41-04:00

What are you talking about Soldiers needs to work as one, there is no gender to be considered while on guard Duty for that matter if confronted on an infantry line being attacked and flanked by two sides I really don't think gender is going to be a factor in defending that position everybody is up in arms and protecting each other while on guard Duty it is the same principle you need to find some better excuses not to have women on guard Duty thank you my name is corporal mendieta United States Marine Corps

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Apr 12 at 2016 9:22 AM

2016-04-12T09:22:38-04:00

Ten years ago I would work over night shifts with a female and ten years later they are some of my closest friends. What concerns me today the ease of want constitutes a SHARP complaint. I treat female soldiers the same and have butted heads with many. Today with word against word, that argument for the sake of winning could become a SHARP complaint. We must get better at evaluating SHARP complaints and not being so quick to ruin a soldier. I would feel uncomfortable today being alone in a guard shack with a female where as ten years ago ok with it.

Response by SrA Lauren Kresse made Apr 12 at 2016 9:26 AM

2016-04-12T09:26:48-04:00

Gender should not be an issue. I've worked beside nothing but men in the military and now as a police officer. As long as the person is well trained there should not be a problem!

Response by Capt Renee Ullrich made Apr 12 at 2016 9:33 AM

2016-04-12T09:33:38-04:00

no it is not wrong and would be the fair thing to do. everyone needs to understand their responsibility. I was an MP and we all did our turn at guard duty.

Response by MSgt Bruce Cooper made Apr 12 at 2016 9:34 AM

2016-04-12T09:34:49-04:00

This should not be a question of gender, but of training.

Response by SGT Mark Ramey made Apr 12 at 2016 9:44 AM

2016-04-12T09:44:22-04:00

No it is not wrong women want equeal right then they should do equeal work

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2016 9:55 AM

2016-04-12T09:55:01-04:00

First off. I will start with this, as a female veteran I have nothing more to prove to my country on just how tough I think I am. That being said, I strongly feel women should NOT have a roll in all male combat MOS positions. Our body make-up is no where near the make-up of a males. Our bodies cannot physically handle the stress and I don't understand why so many women feel the urge or need to want to put themselves in a roll like that. What is a males first instinct when a situation arises, protect the female. I feel rape, sexual assult and possible suicides will increase over females thinking they have to be badass and all hardcore to show whomever they can do a male MOS. on the above topic, if women are going to be in those roles now, then yes, ammo guard should be switched out from male to female. What's the point in battle buddies of the same sex now? The military are pretty much saying, we don't care if you get raped as long as some little girl doesn't get her feelings hurt because she wants to be an 11B.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2016 10:03 AM

2016-04-12T10:03:48-04:00

SFC, I know its a whole new world for you folks with the blue braid; however, the rest of us have been doing this for decades, and I caveat this comment with knowledge that I am opening a whole other can of worms, but in today's army it is just as likely that you will have to deal with same gender inappropriate relations on guard duty as mixed gender. Therefore, it really doesn't matter. A morally flawed soldier is a the same no matter the biological gender and will fail to follow their Warrior Ethos and Army Values as a matter of course regardless of gender. The best you can do is run your guard roster appropriately and let the chips fall where they may. Delegate, hold your Sergents' of the guard accountable, and sleep easy. Good luck at the range!

Response by CW3 Stephen Mills made Apr 12 at 2016 10:35 AM

2016-04-12T10:35:16-04:00

Its guard duty, regardless of what someone might think about females in the military and being able to be in all the same units as males; soldiers of both sexes have been pulling duty, to include guard duty together for ages. Don't create a problem where one has never been before. Make a DA6 and give them their turn as it comes up. MP's have had unisex partners on gate and/or guard duty for decades.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2016 10:39 AM

2016-04-12T10:39:30-04:00

Nope. guard is part of military life. Mission accomplishment.

Response by SGT Patrcia Palmer made Apr 12 at 2016 10:44 AM

2016-04-12T10:44:15-04:00

I think first and foremost that regardless of gender they are all soldiers. The oath did not say something different based on gender we all took the same oath when we enlisted. So regardless of the unit that we are in unless its a unit that does not go the field then we all have pull guard duty and I cannot remember that we were ever assigned two females to be on shift by themselves we always have a male counterpart as part of the team. Always remember that we all have to work together as a team regardless of your gender. So the answer to your question is no it is not wrong for you to put two soldiers on ammo guard regardless of gender.

Response by MSgt Rena Schmidt made Apr 12 at 2016 10:45 AM

2016-04-12T10:45:40-04:00

Can each do the job as assigned? Then it's a mute point period!

Response by SGT Jayson Anderson made Apr 12 at 2016 11:22 AM

2016-04-12T11:22:23-04:00

If the two soldier want to mess up their carriers by being unprofessional while on duty then let then. Sort them out. They should be weeded out and replaced with soldiers that can keep their genitals to themselves. This isn't college and we are not here to hook up.

Response by SGT Ken Wheeler made Apr 12 at 2016 11:23 AM

2016-04-12T11:23:08-04:00

And the problems started; the first thing the chain of command going to is put female on guard duty together, to prevent any franterinzition, til they realize that it won't work out. You are going to have to put male/female together on guard duty and In patrols and in fighting postion, It going to take time to get over the negative aspects of have women but they are good troopers

Response by SGT Kristin Myers made Apr 12 at 2016 11:30 AM

2016-04-12T11:30:59-04:00

I was usually the lone female in my aviation unit. This came up often but it was something I was asked about and I was fine with it.

Response by MSgt Norman Chaney made Apr 12 at 2016 11:37 AM

2016-04-12T11:37:07-04:00

Yes women make better guards. They do not cold, wet, heat, rain, snow, etc. all they need is something to protect hair and nails.

Response by PO2 Joan Feledy made Apr 12 at 2016 11:50 AM

2016-04-12T11:50:13-04:00

The only thing to be considered is, that the person is equipped and/or qualified to do the job.

Response by SSG Brian Cowan made Apr 12 at 2016 12:04 PM

2016-04-12T12:04:05-04:00

Jesus Christ, how is this even a question? When did we forget, that above all else, we are adults? If we can't act like mature adults to carry out a simple task like guard duty, how do we, as a team, expect to win wars? Check out the civilian side of the work force: do bosses separate male and female coworkers for fear that they might have sex at work or scream rape because a male coworker looked at a female sideways? Do your job as a SNCO and police up your Soldiers. If your male Soldier has a problem with it and can't keep his dick in his pants, replace him since he's obviously unfit for duty.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2016 12:11 PM

2016-04-12T12:11:26-04:00

I have felt for a long time that the whole gender separation issue was causing more harm than good. How can you have unit cohesion if a portion was treated differently, and always segregated? It has been my opinion that in the field, or even in garrison during annual training, the males and females should be in the same sleeping bays. It promotes comradory (sp) and encourages the unit to work as one. If the Army keeps seeing soldiers with the distinction of male and female, instead of just Soldiers, then the sexes will never be seen as equals by the rank and file. Treat everyone the same and they will BE the same: U.S.ARMY SOLDIERS.

Response by LCpl Timothy McCain made Apr 12 at 2016 12:20 PM

2016-04-12T12:20:15-04:00

I don't know. However I would like to talk about something else that has the ability to positively affect all veterans. That is the "American Heroes COLA Act of 2015" this bill will make the Cost of living adjustment automatic based upon the consumer price index increase. However it has been hard to get it passed because not enough veterans are paying attention and voicing their support for the bill. So you may be wondering how can you make a difference in passing the bill? Veterans are the most powerful voting block and when they come together in support of an issue the house and Senate listens. So what is the disposition of the bill? At the moment it sitting in the Veterans oversight committee in the Senate awaiting for them to take it up. So can you do? We every veteran to call, write, and email the members of the oversight committee. I've done it and have had great discussionofficeSenator Tillis about it. However it seems that more pressure is needed to get the committee chairs to bring the bill up for a vote that's why we need you to make your voices heard. Once we get it out of committee then what? While you contact the committee members we want you to contact your Senator office by calling, writing, and email to ask that they support the bill and they offer three amendments to the bill once it's brought to the floor. The first would give veterans a 25% pay increase unrelated to Cost of living. The second one would allow the VA to pay Quality Of life payments to veterans who are 60% or more disabled by using the secondary disability scale making awards proportional to the veterans disability rating. The final amendment would allow the VA to make maximum pension payments to any veteran that a service connected disability rating of 100% or permanent and total disabled that not receiving any military retirement. Back dated to the original award date of 100% for maximum of three years. After the bill passes the Senate is it over? No, it will go to the house for final approval. So what then? Each veteran would need to contact their Congressman ask them to support the bill and all its amendments. How long will it take to get to the President's desk? If we work together on this we can get their before the month end. Can any of the amendments take immediate effect after the President signs the bill into law? Yes, but you have to request they be written that way.

Response by MSgt J D McKee made Apr 12 at 2016 12:23 PM

2016-04-12T12:23:50-04:00

What? They don't already? Equal pay, equal work. Why is gender even taken into consideration? I know guard duty sucks to high heaven, having been in a career field that is nothing but guard duty for the most part, why unfairly discriminate against males based on their gender? If there are 5 people available and only 3 catch guard duty, because of female privilege, that's discrimination. Look at it like this, if there were 5 people available, and 2 of them were white, but they didn't catch guard duty because they were white, how would that work out for you?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2016 12:29 PM

2016-04-12T12:29:15-04:00

No issue. Just remind them of the expectations of conduct, then hold them accountable.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2016 12:57 PM

2016-04-12T12:57:33-04:00

SFC Sams, as a female AMMO troop in the Air Force as I have completed guard duty of the ASP, as a SECFOR augmentee, and while attached to the Army during training at FT Polk and during my advisor mission in AFG, all times alone with one or more males and separated from others. Men and woman are alone all of the time without incident and yet you're obviously only worried about SHARP issues not performance. The real problem that should be addressed is the fear of retaliation from leadership for treating your Soldiers like adults The adults that signed up to serve their country and not holding them responsible for their actions.

Response by SSG Brian Kresge made Apr 12 at 2016 1:24 PM

2016-04-12T13:24:10-04:00

I'm trying to remember which of the General Orders include "sexualize guard duty."

Response by CAPT Don Bosch, EdD made Apr 12 at 2016 1:26 PM

2016-04-12T13:26:11-04:00

That train left the station long ago.

Response by CPL Terry Whalen made Apr 12 at 2016 1:44 PM

2016-04-12T13:44:34-04:00

Hell no, they are soldiers first and finance second. Give them the 2-4 am shift.

Response by LTC Andrew Addison made Apr 12 at 2016 2:48 PM

2016-04-12T14:48:54-04:00

I would put the names in a "hat" and not be concerned about race, religion, political view or sex of the Soldier when making a duty roster.

Response by SGT Marika Waiters made Apr 12 at 2016 2:58 PM

2016-04-12T14:58:26-04:00

It's the same old adage: if the soldier is substandard, get them out. Otherwise, utilize your resources - regardless of gender. A troop should be proficient in all aspects of the service.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2016 2:59 PM

2016-04-12T14:59:08-04:00

I feel like there should be no problem with one female and one male soldier doing guard duty together however, being an NG soldier it is taboo. It's almost a segregation example; if a male NCO is in charge of a female soldier he is to be accompanied at all times while talking or training her. The culture in the ARNG is quite different on this subject and its very disappointing when you are made to feel you can't trust your troops by higher ups.

Response by SGT Alicia Brenneis made Apr 12 at 2016 3:20 PM

2016-04-12T15:20:28-04:00

Males and females have been pulling guard together for a long time. In support units, they don't care. When your name comes up you go on guard. I don't think I ever pulled guard with another female. I probably did but don't remember. Point being, it's nothing new.

Response by SPC Kathleen Harris made Apr 12 at 2016 4:06 PM

2016-04-12T16:06:11-04:00

Back in the 1970s, I was a SP4 Transportation Clerk stationed in Germany I was assigned duty guard duty midnight - 8a.m. at the front gate armed with only a billy club. I couldn't stay awake. I was only 1 of a handful of women in HHQ company. Every time I turned around I was being TDYed to do some menial task. I was newly pregnant, and decided to use that as an excuse to be discharged. My point here is assigning women from other units to guard duty is nothing new.

Response by PO1 Scott Cottrell made Apr 12 at 2016 4:44 PM

2016-04-12T16:44:32-04:00

As long as they are Qualified, there is no problem.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2016 4:58 PM

2016-04-12T16:58:36-04:00

In a training environment I don't see a likely issue. But 8 months into deployment and the raging hormones of 2 twenty year olds might lead to ample distraction

Response by SSgt Rusty Warner made Apr 12 at 2016 5:01 PM

2016-04-12T17:01:32-04:00

Uphold the standards..... Don't drop the ball on this and inspect what you expect. The Sergeant and Corporal of the Guard can ensure that things run smoothly. This is a small opportunity to show growth and gender integration within our military, as we have been ordered to do.... Uphold the standards.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2016 5:11 PM

2016-04-12T17:11:59-04:00

No. They are both soldiers and are expected to act professionally. If that's not the case, then maybe they should replace some of the SHARP classes with a simple class on being respectful to others. But I guess if parents these days would teach their kids respect at an early age, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made Apr 12 at 2016 5:25 PM

2016-04-12T17:25:17-04:00

We had males with females in Bosnia for the tower guards (only 2 guards in a tower) of the base camp. Put them on guard does not matter they are all soldiers

Response by MAJ Patricia Schaeflern made Apr 12 at 2016 5:54 PM

2016-04-12T17:54:04-04:00

Either they are soldiers, or they are not. They are not circle red-X "to be given duties only in the presence of a male or only in the presence of another female..."

Response by AN Anita Feerer made Apr 12 at 2016 5:59 PM

2016-04-12T17:59:01-04:00

I would say that gender shouldn't be a factor in guard duty. A woman who signs up to defend her country should realize that it really means to defend, a woman shouldn't get excluded from duty just because of her sex. Professionalism should be held above all.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2016 6:30 PM

2016-04-12T18:30:48-04:00

Absolutely, in order for the true equality of females in the military to play the role of soldier... Only time gender should play a role is showers and toilet time... Sleeping even in the barracks should not be an issue... In Kuwait while transing to Iraq we were in 90 man circus tents both female and male... Zero issues...

Response by SGT Courtland Morrison made Apr 12 at 2016 6:49 PM

2016-04-12T18:49:14-04:00

No they are soldiers. Treat them same if the mission is a success or failure.

Response by SGT Tim Fridley made Apr 12 at 2016 6:52 PM

2016-04-12T18:52:54-04:00

No They are both soldiers and went to the same basic training

Response by MSgt Eric Roseberry made Apr 12 at 2016 7:17 PM

2016-04-12T19:17:43-04:00

Discipline. I don't think a standing order for soldiers to abstain from sexual activity while on duty or in a combat zone should be necessary.

Response by CPT Wendy Ormond made Apr 12 at 2016 7:26 PM

2016-04-12T19:26:08-04:00

Back in the '80s, in Germany; we had duty to guard the motorpark. The company roster was probably 25-30% females. The guard was posted in 2s, and consisted of whoever was up on the roster, 2 sets of 2 rotated through the night. We thought nothing of it. We did field exercises the same way. I am surprised it is considered an issue 30 years later.....

Response by 1SG Terry Gibbens made Apr 12 at 2016 7:40 PM

2016-04-12T19:40:43-04:00

During the first gulf war I was a first sergeant of the 1015th AG Co Postal 1/2 of my unit were female the pulled duty just like my other soldiers when they came up on the duty roster they pulled the duty.

Response by MSgt Fred Spanier made Apr 12 at 2016 7:41 PM

2016-04-12T19:41:20-04:00

If they want equal rights then no, special treatments regardless what sex they are. Male or female

Response by SSgt Chuck “Gunz” Gundlach USMC Ret., MBA made Apr 12 at 2016 7:41 PM

2016-04-12T19:41:47-04:00

What is the worry, it's already been done over and over again. It's not a new idea or plan. Leaders just need to ensure rules are followed and enforced and you would for anyone under any circumstances.

Response by Sgt Jamie Grippin made Apr 12 at 2016 7:47 PM

2016-04-12T19:47:39-04:00

I would also agree that there should be no problem with putting a woman on the roster for guard duty whereever she falls in the line up. I would also state that this will only become a problem after something unfortunate happens and the political talking heads get involve. Then let there be mercy on the local leadership because they will certainly be sacrificed.

Response by SSgt Stevan Auldridge made Apr 12 at 2016 7:59 PM

2016-04-12T19:59:27-04:00

I think what the person is attempting to get at, is what happens when the woman accuses the man of inappropriate behavior and there are no witnesses?

Response by SFC Mikael Boyd made Apr 12 at 2016 8:19 PM

2016-04-12T20:19:00-04:00

No if she wants to be an 11B then there should be know differences in gender

Response by SSG Jeremy Kohlwes made Apr 12 at 2016 8:37 PM

2016-04-12T20:37:27-04:00

Nope, people are going to have to get used to it. Is there a potential for something bad to happen? Of course. But you can't expect the worst out of male soldiers or protect the female ones either. Carry on with the mission and hope that your soldiers are professional ones.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2016 8:48 PM

2016-04-12T20:48:36-04:00

We're all soldiers, we should be responsible enough not to dittle on duty. And if we aren't, that's what ucmj is for.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Apr 12 at 2016 9:27 PM

2016-04-12T21:27:34-04:00

Spc. 4 Byron Skinner, I guess guard duty in the context of this question is yeoman work around a base camp or a fire base. This is generally no duty most units would take an 11B out of the field for. Putt ant troops from Finance Corp into an 11B ALC is sacrilegious and an insult to the !!B would would loved to be pulled back into base came for some guard duty, KP, latrine burning etc. Anything for a couple of hot meals, shower, a shave with water and to try an bum some fresh , unripped up clothes mostly of the former property of a departed KIA or WIA. Yes those replacement uniforms parts you get once belonged to a brother or now sister no longer with the squad.Doing Ammo guard or on a I've man night ambush patrol in an area that has been hot the past few nights's, that's a real dumb ass question isn't it. This is called Army recycling.

Response by CPT Earl George made Apr 12 at 2016 10:32 PM

2016-04-12T22:32:59-04:00

no it is not wrong. It would be nice if it ended there. But, unfortunately you have to watch your back and double check who is working with whom . I want to relate a story here. I commanded a BCT company back in 1975 and received an order from the Bn CO to send a male cook to a different company as I was receiving a female cook in return. It turned out the t the female cook and the other company Commander were caught having sex in his van at 1am in the morning. Though I did not like the solution that those above me decided, I took the transfer and in my initial meeting with her told her what I expected. However to protect myself, I made sure the 1SG was also in my office anytime she was so I had a witness to whatever might happen. It wasn't that I did not like females in the army back then, It was that because they were there, there was going to be problems as a result that I did not need or want. Also I was going to have to deal with the political correctness of the superiors over me as to how these problems should be handled. I only worked with 3 females during my time in the service but too many of the problems presented by these three should not have occurred but I had believed I had to be very careful in how I handled each one because they were female.

Response by SFC Edwin Mujica made Apr 13 at 2016 1:04 AM

2016-04-13T01:04:02-04:00

If you are worry, have the SOG perform period checks and that's within the scope of his duties. To check on the soldiers on guard duty.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2016 1:36 AM

2016-04-13T01:36:14-04:00

I don't think it's wrong but gender is still a consideration. Know your troops and know what your asking them to do. Is it a better decision to put females together probably it eliminates a possible issue from happening.

Response by PO2 David Allender made Apr 13 at 2016 2:28 AM

2016-04-13T02:28:20-04:00

There should not be any question about guard duty. That has been and always will be duty for every member of the armed service, both male and female.

Response by CPL Deanna Green (Parkinson) made Apr 13 at 2016 7:33 AM

2016-04-13T07:33:03-04:00

I am a retired MP...gender never came into the equation. I was trained as a soldier, and that we all wore green and bled red. I was also an "older" soldier (34 when I enlisted and a mother of 5) I never had any duty that was female only. Guard duty, CQ, etc. didn't matter and was never even brought up and this was 20 years ago. I am really surprised that this is still an issue. I believe that your females should already be aware of what the standards are and just follow orders and make it happen. I hope this helps!

Response by CPO Robert Bustamante made Apr 13 at 2016 8:35 AM

2016-04-13T08:35:23-04:00

I believe in equal rights for men and women, and I have served with women that could out perform men. On the other hand, I have served with women who just couldn't perform certain tasks. You have to be fair to everyone in your outfit, so put the women on ammo duty, but document any slack of performance--on both sexes. This will give you self-defense incase someone cries discrimination.

Response by SGT Bryan O'Reilly made Apr 13 at 2016 9:45 AM

2016-04-13T09:45:53-04:00

I posted this in response to another similar question"Why equality in military uniform is a bad idea:" America is bastion for democracy and progress only because your military secured those freedoms for you. It is a luxury possible because while we want peace, we are also ready to kick ass and rain down on the enemies of freedom with a swift and mighty hand of righteous American doom to secure it. As soldiers, we surrender certain civil rights in order that we might better accomplish our mission of protecting you. We knew it when we enlisted, and we signed up anyway. When you attempt to impose the same guidelines as civs on GI's you fail to take that into account and undermine our effectiveness. Let the military figure it out. They will , I assure you. But, in an organic process that takes into account the simple fact that many civs seem to have forgotten.
We are still at war.
But, the Army says otherwise , so adapt. i would buttonhole one of your females and ask her in a non-sexually harassing manner, what would work best for her and her battles then go about doing what I was going to do anyway.
But you knew all this already, didn't you, Smoke?
Bayonet!
US Army (ret)

Response by CPT Jim Schwebach made Apr 13 at 2016 10:53 AM

2016-04-13T10:53:17-04:00

Since there is no concern about whether or not the female Soldier can perform the duty(they've been pulling guard for years), the concern is apparently whether the mixed pair can resist temptation. So let us not provide the temptation. Makes about as much sense as prohibiting the construction of highways because they provide the opportunity for reckless driving.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made Apr 13 at 2016 2:14 PM

2016-04-13T14:14:06-04:00

No.

Response by SFC Carl L. Hardy Hardy made Apr 13 at 2016 3:23 PM

2016-04-13T15:23:51-04:00

If they are going to be Infantry yes all duties should be performed the same no mater what sex.

Response by CSM Felipe Mendez made Apr 13 at 2016 4:41 PM

2016-04-13T16:41:29-04:00

No. As a leader is our responsibility that all soldiers are training, qualified and prepare for any duty regardless what they are. I was in an Aviation unit in which female soldier were assigned and work along male soldier performing the same duties. Throughout my military career a made a point to not identified soldiers by gender. I had soldiers assigned to me. When I was given a mission to provide an amount of soldiers for a tasking, I ran through the roster and all I saw was names. I was deployed to Kosovo during the earliest stages of the deployment, because my task force had the most of soldiers assigned, I was task to provide a guard force for the American Sector Ammunition Holding Area (AHA). It was a 24-hour tasking/operation. As the Task force CSM, I made the point that nobody was exempt from the guard duty. My assigned female soldiers performed their duties as part of the guard force exemplary. They received kudos from unit’s chain of command and from other unit’s commanders/Senior NCOs. As a previous Squadron and Brigade CSM, I made sure all soldiers were trained to standards and check/follow up to make sure they were. We the leaders should not label a soldier as “female soldier” or “male soldier”, in doing so, what we are doing is segregating them and setting them apart. Many “female” soldier wants to be treated as part of the team and when treated as such, they made things happened. I had some great female soldiers that are currently First Sergeant or Command Sergeant majors. With all the changes going through our society, today’s leaders must come to term on how to treat and handle soldiers. Leaders must trust and give soldiers regardless their gender the opportunity to excel and perform to the best of their abilities. I believe that the leader that trains his/her soldier to standards, know their potential and trust them, would not have any problem assigning them to any type of duty/guard duty. There is no problem having one male and one female during guard duty. Just do not make it the norm, use the duty roster and you would have the dilemma or situation in which the same female is constantly doing guard duty. I do not see any problem having two females doing the same duty. Regardless of the gender, make sure they are train to standards, if so, they will succeed and be a great access to your team, unit and specially the United States Army.

Response by SGT Chris Birkinbine made Apr 13 at 2016 6:20 PM

2016-04-13T18:20:08-04:00

No it is not wrong. If there becomes an issue, you punish that Soldier who is responsible for the problem. You must instill a culture where women and men are viewed as equals, and where harassment of any kind is unprofessional and unacceptable. That is not a male and a female on guard, that is two Soldiers on guard, and they need to see it as such. That distinction starts with the leadership.

Just my opinion.

Response by Cpl John DeConti made Apr 13 at 2016 7:44 PM

2016-04-13T19:44:43-04:00

I would expect my Marines to conduct themselves in a *somewhat* professional manner (firewatch gets boring).. I understand when you are dealing with 18-24 year olds some jack-assery has to occur some of the times but I don't think there is much to worry about here.

*edit* : Plus you have the OOD and SNCO checking their post every 3-4 hours no? This should mitigate some of the issues.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 13 at 2016 10:39 PM

2016-04-13T22:39:54-04:00

Response by Sgt Judy Leonard made Apr 13 at 2016 10:54 PM

2016-04-13T22:54:49-04:00

What does being a female have to do with anything!

Response by LTC Gerald Chernicoff made Apr 14 at 2016 5:56 AM

2016-04-14T05:56:04-04:00

many years ago with female MP's on patrol with males, we occasionally lost radio contact up on Custer Hill. I'm sure today, things have improved.

Response by LTC John Wilson made Apr 14 at 2016 6:28 AM

2016-04-14T06:28:44-04:00

Is it wrong to have 1 female and 1 male do ammo guard? Technically, no. However, allow me to relate a story that General Bashar (Iraqi Army) related to me about a particular incident when his troops enter the Saudi town of Khafji (during Desert Storm).

There was a US Transportation element in Khafji, and when a particular tractor-trailer (I believe a HET) was captured, Bashar related that his Iraqi soldiers found a US male and female Soldier "out of uniform" in a "compromising position." A "co-ed" guard mount alone for hours provides a temptation best avoided.

Add to the mix our imperatives from our SHARP training, and you can see how such a pairing becomes geometrically more risky for both the Soldiers and the Leadership.

You would be smart to avoid it.

Response by 1stSgt Stanley Geiger made Apr 14 at 2016 9:29 AM

2016-04-14T09:29:16-04:00

A soldier is a soldier. The corporial of the guard may have to be more diligent as well as the sgt of the guard.

Response by SSG Skylur Britz made Apr 14 at 2016 9:55 AM

2016-04-14T09:55:30-04:00

In my opinion, you should just have the two females guard together to avoid he said she said bullshit. I also know that you shouldn't have to do this because these are supposed to be professional soldiers, but they are also lower ranks because of the duty and young and dumbass decisions usually go together.

Response by SPC Tina Uitts made Apr 14 at 2016 10:46 AM

2016-04-14T10:46:53-04:00

No. It wasn't in Afghanistan. If your unit trains for combat in garrison than keep it real.

Response by CPT Michael Maag made Apr 14 at 2016 3:40 PM

2016-04-14T15:40:09-04:00

absoluty..l no matter what everyone thinks should happen.. ... men and women alone are dangerous together only because of Human Nature.. Im not sure about women.. but even at 55 yrs of age I get aroused a few times a day. and if a female is close my.. she gets my attention.. I am a Man.. Now because I am married .. I chose to ignore my temptations.. but.. sooo many dont.

Response by MSG Don Burt made Apr 14 at 2016 8:01 PM

2016-04-14T20:01:01-04:00

That's pure crap! If both are qualified, then do it...this gender stuff is crap...if you want the job then ya gotta learn to play with the boys...If the females can't handle the job, then get them back to finance because it's a life/death situ in wartime and you can't and shouldn't have to worry about who can or cannot do their jobs.

Response by 1SG Jack Crutcher made Apr 14 at 2016 8:35 PM

2016-04-14T20:35:44-04:00

No, all soldiers should pull guard regardless of MOS or gender.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2016 9:41 PM

2016-04-14T21:41:17-04:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member Absolutely not, there is nothing wrong with pair up two Soldiers, regardless of gender, for guard duty. We are all professionals and should be able to conduct ourselves accordingly.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2016 11:03 PM

2016-04-14T23:03:56-04:00

NO if one has the skill they should stand guard Period

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2016 1:26 AM

2016-04-15T01:26:52-04:00

Not at all. All military personnel are there to do a job. How it gets completed is left up to the management of the facility/unit. I don't see anything wrong with it.

Response by SSG Loyd Gant made Apr 15 at 2016 1:30 AM

2016-04-15T01:30:16-04:00

if this question garner this much attention i truly wonder what it will be like in the back of Bradley or troop transport bodies will touch or do we separate the riders i guess this old infantrymen is trying to say self-control, self-discipline is the order of the day

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2016 11:06 AM

2016-04-15T11:06:36-04:00

I say as long as they are professionals like all should be. There is nothing wrong with it.

Response by SSG Robert Webster made Apr 15 at 2016 11:21 PM

2016-04-15T23:21:17-04:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member What does having females in the Infantry have to do with Guard Duty - absolutely nothing. Think about it this way, if you were either a Finance or HR NCO running an equivalent course or WLC would you be asking the same question?

Response by SFC Charles Temm made Apr 16 at 2016 9:57 PM

2016-04-16T21:57:09-04:00

I think you'd be setting yourself up for failure to do so unless you know the personnel involved were straight (GTG/good troops etc etc). If the personnel aren't duds then use them as such.

If you have any doubt, don't take a chance when you don't have to

Response by 1SG Robert Bodeman made Apr 17 at 2016 12:10 AM

2016-04-17T00:10:09-04:00

RETIRED 1SG 35YEARS USARMY - Guard duty is ran by the company turn or area, Guard duty is PERFORMED by SOLDIERS PERIOD, SOLDIER has NO gender, it is the responsibility of each person involved, IF there is foul play, then your unit needs retraining, I never had this problem mixing it up, I told them its simple, if I catch you or ANY one crossing the line - your svc is done, I would do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING in my POWER to exit you both out , but I was a TIRRANT, ran a very tight unit

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2016 11:28 AM

2016-04-17T11:28:43-04:00

Don't see any issue! As a long as they both follow our Army Values.

Response by Sgt Michael Johnson made Apr 18 at 2016 1:26 AM

2016-04-18T01:26:28-04:00

Why should there be a problem? If there were males and females in the field are they not sometimes required to sleep in the same field tent? We are required to do our jobs regardless of our gender and regardless if our partner is of the opposite gender. We are still upheld to the same professional standards regardless of who or what gender or partner is. Besides could it not be argued that if only females work together or only males work together that somehow that is sexual discrimination. Another point I have to make is if females can't work with males on guard duty how this promote working as a unit? It would segregate the unit to a way.

Response by MSgt Daniel Harrison made Apr 18 at 2016 10:13 AM

2016-04-18T10:13:59-04:00

No it's not wrong. It's time for the military to rid itself of gender bias. I feel strongly that any able body that's wearing a uniform should be eligible to perform any job in the military. One of things that always bothered me was the fact that an E4 in the mess hall, or working in finance were making the same money as an E4 in the trenches.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2016 12:40 PM

2016-04-21T12:40:14-04:00

Don't see any issue! As a long as they both follow our Army Values.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2016 8:56 AM

2016-04-30T08:56:50-04:00

I now serve in a Chemical Company and roughly half my PLT is female. We regularly have males and females working together. Just remind everyone that they are professionals and are expected to act as such. Give your speech to the PLT not just to select individuals, and I doubt that you will have a problem.

Response by MSG John Wirts made May 10 at 2016 1:35 AM

2016-05-10T01:35:47-04:00

Do you normally run two male guards at the ammo point? If the answer is yes then two guards in any configuration is okay. That would be two males, two females, or 1 male and 1 female guard. If you normally post one male guard, then it would be inappropriate to post 1 male and one female guard, or 2 female guards. Until the government and the military makes a decision that females are not the same as males, any special consideration in assignments or posting is a violation of the UCMJ.