Should griping to subordinates ever be done?

2015-01-29T15:02:55-05:00

As in the film, "Saving Private Ryan," Tom Hanks mentioned that to his team that he never gripes down, he gripes up. How do you feel on taking advise from subordinates if your aren't asking for it? On anything.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Jan 29 at 2015 3:11 PM

2015-01-29T15:11:46-05:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKbdE5LOGNQ

Saving Private Ryan "Complaints Go Up"

My favorite truism about leadership, from the film "Saving Private Ryan."

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2015 3:14 PM

2015-01-29T15:14:49-05:00

No. Not ever.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2015 3:16 PM

2015-01-29T15:16:21-05:00

Depends on situation and possibly if your subordinate is way older than you are. They have life experiances that may be related.

Response by CPT Richard Riley made Jan 29 at 2015 3:18 PM

2015-01-29T15:18:38-05:00

Griping (which is in your question) is different than advise (which is encased in the comment portion) are two totally different things. I'll stick to the griping issue and vote it should not happen. I can think of no positive outcomes for that behavior so don't do it.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2015 3:20 PM

2015-01-29T15:20:29-05:00

I try to take a page from Gen Colin Powell when it comes to discussion and developing plans of action. He believed in open dialog and even disagreement, or griping, but when a decision had been reached, it was solidarity all the way. I encourage my Soldiers to bring me concerns, problems, and even advice, but they all know that at the end of the day we march where and when we are told.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2015 3:21 PM

2015-01-29T15:21:15-05:00

Children whine. Adults should identify a problem and provide a solution.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jan 29 at 2015 3:35 PM

2015-01-29T15:35:59-05:00

You should never gripe to subordinates. Laying out the situation, as something of necessity or as direction is just better. "This has to get done."

As for taking advice. My gut reaction is "familiarity breeds contempt" however it really depends on the question that the specific piece is about.

Unsolicited advise is always a minefield, however your troops are "amazingly" more aware of your (our) moods than you may realize, just as you are of your seniors. If one of your juniors asks "Everything alright?" You may being showing so much outward stress that you are about to break.

There is nothing wrong with soliciting specific advice however. Especially if you know your folks. You may have a "car guy," or a "gun guy" or "whatever guy" and asking them for specific piece of information shows that you trust their input, even if it's just to put you on the right track for a decision later on.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2015 3:53 PM

2015-01-29T15:53:53-05:00

I am the senior NCO in the logistics section of my unit, working under the guidance and control of the S-4 NCOIC. I am chemical and don't really no jack about command supply discipline program (other then basic hand receipt stuff).

I take input and advice on these matters all the time. I get advice on the technical aspects of a task or mission. The how and when and where of a mission, is my decision (with input from the S4). I will listen to concerns and take them into consideration.

I should mention that i recognize "gripes" for what they are and usually with a "get over it and drive on" kind of response because typically the gripes are from the beds that they laid and I let them sleep in them. IF there are legitimate concerns that may affect outcomes, then a pause and reconsideration is warranted.

In general, I think it is reasonable and in fact idiotic not to listen to SME's in in your subordinate group. Not even the SME's; your soldiers may have a different insight that was not considered in your planning. Always listen to your subordinates, but know how and when to say "no" as a leader.

Response by SPC Stewart Smith made Jan 29 at 2015 6:33 PM

2015-01-29T18:33:48-05:00

It really depends on the situation.
If it is work related, how can your subordinate possibly have any real advice for you when he/she has never been through it?
If it is a personal problem, then there is a real possibility that your soldiers can really help you through it. If your soldiers are adult enough to not let this affect your working relationship, I would find it really hard to argue against confiding in them. If there is any worry that they would 'gossip' then I can't see any good reason why you would ask their advice.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 1:48 AM

2015-01-30T01:48:15-05:00

i am of the opinion that 'griping down' fan be done in a different way thru an open conversations about recommendations for change in future actions.

IMO griping down results in a negative opinion of leadership and generally results in split loyalty within the unit, when in reality we are all part of a team.

Iundelt with this for the past 4 years in my last DITY assignment.

My 1sg, IMO, was incompetent (as a 12b because he spent his career as a machinist, then reclassed, and my commander was decent but a yes man who never took risk, and a lawyer by profession)

I routinely had Soldiers provoke me to get My negative opinion about them and, although I wanted to, I always supported their leadership philosophies due to their position of authority.

Like you, myself and my PL really didn't have anyone to talk to about these issues but would have parallel conversations about how we can improve the unit as awhole without compromising our own leadership respect from our troops by tearing a leader down.

One team one fight. And it's hard to mask an ineffective leader.

Good luck.

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made Jan 30 at 2015 2:00 AM

2015-01-30T02:00:32-05:00

I will always accept advice from anyone. Just because they are a subordinate doesn't mean they don't know a better way to do something.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 3:27 AM

2015-01-30T03:27:30-05:00

The farthest that I would go is something to the effect of "Yeah, I agree XYZ sucks, but we'll get through it."

It's not griping per se, but it is showing that you feel their frustration, and can vent a little, but not sound like you're complaining.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2015 11:50 AM

2015-01-30T11:50:05-05:00

I would have to say it depends on the situation. I sometime go in front of my soldiers with complaints and don’t tell them to fix anything. I do this to see who if any of them are going take the hint and step up and make changes. The life of a soldier is always easier if they make their superiors life easier. If it is a situation regarding something they have no control over or that might influence their opinion on a person or upcoming event then that complaining is usually held for my wife, peers, and superiors.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Jan 30 at 2015 1:28 PM

2015-01-30T13:28:35-05:00

Closest I can agree with "gripe down" is a Officer to his/her SNCO Leadership teammate in private.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Feb 10 at 2015 1:27 PM

2015-02-10T13:27:42-05:00

Unprofessional and degrades respect to the leader performing such actions, it is a lesson learned for me and sometimes it takes a very conscious effort to ward off thinking about it. When you have a gripe, it should be taken to the source of the gripe with candor and then it should be received as feedback, which there is NO such thing as bad feedback.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2015 1:32 PM

2015-02-10T13:32:15-05:00

Never. It erodes the moral if leaders are complaining or whining to their subordinates. Everyone complains. It's natural. That's what your peers and seniors are for (and in some cases just your peers). Regardless, happy or not the job must get done. Putting negative thoughts in your subordinates minds creates an "us vs. them" mentality with leadership. That's no good for the team.

Response by SSG Sean Garcia made Feb 11 at 2015 2:03 AM

2015-02-11T02:03:46-05:00

In my opinion, it is unprofessional for an NCO to gripe in front of a subordinate or a group of subordinates. There were plenty of times that I did not agree with the orders of my PSG, and behind closed doors we would discuss it, but nonetheless, I wouldn't complain about it to the juniors. This is setting them up for failure for their futureilitary career.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made May 21 at 2015 4:40 AM

2015-05-21T04:40:02-04:00

NO!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2015 11:20 AM

2015-06-23T11:20:48-04:00

I'm always willing to take advice from subordinates, as long as it's given in a respectful manner. Improving the processes used by my soldiers and myself is a priority for me, and I'm not too proud or too insecure in my position as their leader to accept advice from below. As for griping to subordinates: absolutely not. Never, ever will I gripe, complain or whine in front of my subordinates, much less to them. Soldiers draw strength and motivation from seeing that their leader drives on despite adversity. I will not detract from the outstanding leadership that I owe them by complaining to them.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2015 11:34 AM

2015-06-23T11:34:27-04:00

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2015 11:53 AM

2015-06-23T11:53:06-04:00

Find a solution, solve the problem! If that cannot be done, try to resolve the issue going up not a gripe downward! Soldiers want to hear solutions not complaining! This makes soldiers uneasy and plays a vital role in mission execution! Like I always say, " embrace the suck, let's move out"!

Response by SPC Thomas Baldwin made Jun 23 at 2015 11:55 AM

2015-06-23T11:55:53-04:00

NEVER!!!!
I always want to here suggestions from subordinates and concerned points. A leader should never gripe to subordinates. This starts to cross the line of friend vs leader. Just my thought on this.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2015 12:02 PM

2015-06-23T12:02:37-04:00

Response by SSG Ralph Innes made Jun 23 at 2015 12:26 PM

2015-06-23T12:26:06-04:00

I had a 1SG that would always say, "You can bitch and do it or just do it." However, I believe he would have blown a gasket had we complained to our subordinates. You can't get your subordinates to be motivated if as a leader you are complaining about the situation.

Response by SCPO Donald Johnson made Jun 23 at 2015 1:39 PM

2015-06-23T13:39:58-04:00

There's a difference between taking advise and griping. A smart leaderr listens to his men, but never shares his misfeelings about the situation, or worse senior leadership, with his juniors.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jun 23 at 2015 1:46 PM

2015-06-23T13:46:02-04:00

No, when you gripe to a subordinate, it tarnishes your image in the eyes of the subordinate and shows discord within the chain of command. Familiarity breeds contempt.

Response by SSG John Erny made Jun 23 at 2015 1:51 PM

2015-06-23T13:51:06-04:00

Never

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 23 at 2015 3:09 PM

2015-06-23T15:09:44-04:00

The subject of griping is often personal reasons, superior(S), soldiers, NCOs, and Officers, and units. It should be avoided as it allows a cancer to spread. I can understand if the situation becomes humanly unbearable.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2015 3:28 PM

2015-06-23T15:28:51-04:00

Open dialogue (speaking up and down at the same level) is a tool but should be used carefully.
There are support structures in the CoC and NCO Sup. Channel. The PLT LDR has his/her PLT SGT. The CDR has his 1SG and so on.

Part of professional development may include discourse and discussion at an even level as long as it is understood that the lines are drawn. There should also be recognition that a professional friendship is much different than a personal friendship.

Unsolicited advice from the privates towards me is better directed to my NCO for filtering. Not to insult anyone that works for me but in most cases, I don't have time to quibble over minutiae. When my NCO comes to me it is for a good reason and he has my full time attention.

Response by SSG Christopher Freeman made Jun 23 at 2015 4:39 PM

2015-06-23T16:39:05-04:00

Very rarely will I gripe in front of subordinates. the only exception is when group griping when we are all in the suck, such as the field. But I am choosy with what I gripe about. Mostly it's about how hot it is or how tired I am, only if the feeling is shared among the group.

Response by Jordan Gaudard made Jun 23 at 2015 4:58 PM

2015-06-23T16:58:54-04:00

It sure is easier said than done in this situation, I would argue that anyone who says they haven't done it is either lying or stretching the truth. I know I have slipped a time or two, but it isn't the norm for me. There are times I let my squad leaders know how I really feel about situations, most of them know me well enough that it goes without saying anyway.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 23 at 2015 11:10 PM

2015-06-23T23:10:22-04:00

In a perfect world, certainly not. Every now and then, I believe that a leader may need to vent, and the proper channels aren't available. In those cases, it may be necessary, but the leader should be judicious about when, to whom, and how often.

Response by SPC David S. made Jun 23 at 2015 11:27 PM

2015-06-23T23:27:25-04:00

The best leaders know when, and how, to follow. As for "griping", that's a situational thing. It's fine to gripe to subordinates about certain things. You just need to know when and how to gripe. My NCO's griped to me when I wasn't doing something right or when the unit was making them upset. It made me a better soldier. I did the same to them. If they were making us do something I didn't agree with, I let them know and, if I thought I knew a better way, I gave them a different option or options to do it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2015 12:34 AM

2015-06-24T00:34:42-04:00

Response by SSgt Dale W. made Jun 24 at 2015 8:36 PM

2015-06-24T20:36:04-04:00

Never. I had to learn this the hard way very shortly after becoming a Sergeant. Sitting with my A1C & SrA buddies and griping about something stupid. My unit Superintendent, a SMSgt, overheard and artfully chewed my ass about the responsibility I had as an NCO. It was one of the most memorable ass chewings I have ever seen or experienced.

What I learned was, no matter your rank, once an order is given, faithfully execute it to the best of your ability. That also includes new regs or policy directives from any command authority. Maintaining discipline and unit cohesion is much simpler that way.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 25 at 2015 3:20 AM

2015-06-25T03:20:05-04:00

If one of my junior Sailors had an idea to improve efficiency, I was all for it.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Jul 25 at 2015 3:40 PM

2015-07-25T15:40:58-04:00

Never! It undermines your superiors.

Response by CPO Joseph Grant made Jul 25 at 2015 3:42 PM

2015-07-25T15:42:01-04:00

As a Submariner, we have what we call "Forceful Backup" which means if a subordinate sees you doing something, well, stupid, that they call you on it on the spot. It doesn't matter if it's an E-1 talking to the CO. I always listened to my subordinates. As for griping I have never griped to my people.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 25 at 2015 3:46 PM

2015-07-25T15:46:14-04:00

I always listened for new ideas and sometimes adopted them because they were right and I wanted them to feel like an integral part of the team.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2015 4:45 PM

2015-07-25T16:45:44-04:00

In my opinion, no. Find a peer or a mentor to gripe too. There isn't anything wrong with letting out your feelings but you should always aim to promote harmony and high morale around your Soldiers. Griping to or around your Soldiers only underminds your leadership.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2015 5:01 PM

2015-07-25T17:01:27-04:00

One should never gripe, whether up or down. Instead, issues should be addressed in issue, discussion, recommendation format, whether oral or written. With regard to taking advice from subordinates, it should happen more than it does. Subordinates often have the freshest ideas and help keep their superiors adaptive and relevant. In Special Forces, the newest Soldier has just as much of a voice as the most senior.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2015 6:43 PM

2015-07-25T18:43:50-04:00

Hell No!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 25 at 2015 7:57 PM

2015-07-25T19:57:22-04:00

I'll tell you one thing, you go into a combat zone a newbie, you better follow your subordinates suggestions if you want to be alive like he is. I've seen butter bars and silver bars, that don't want any subordinate telling them anything. Believe me, when they get pinned down or are in a hot LZ, all the officer crap goes out the window. They hang very close to the RTO and subordinates. After their first firefight, they be loose as a goose around those "subordinates" that saved his butt. I got chastised once by a butter bar fresh out of OCS. I didn't salute him as he passed. He called me on it and I told him, we don't salute anywhere in Vietnam. He asked me to go to the CO's with him. The Co excused me and I guess indoctrinated him to the wonderful world of Vietnam. It doesn't take any newbie long to find out what to do in a hot LZ.

Response by SPC Anne Miller made Jul 26 at 2015 1:50 AM

2015-07-26T01:50:03-04:00

Advice from subordinates, hmm. Well, I get it all the time.
The last "adivise" I got, was do not go out alone.
I was a woman alone in Paris.
A woman alone in the Army;
But yet in my hometown, bad things happen to me.
Of course, I was a woman alone.
It's all my fault.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2015 2:12 AM

2015-07-27T02:12:44-04:00

Personally, I think you should always take advice, no matter where it comes from. Everyone has different backgrounds and experiences, and sometimes the "new guy" is the only one who isn't blinded by routine. If the subordinate is respectful and truly wants to help, always consider their viewpoint.

As for griping, it should never be done from the top down. With that said, I don't believe that acknowledging tough situations is griping. You can go to your subordinates and let them know you sympathize with them, in a professional manner. Say things like "I know we've been working long hours, and I've also been missing out on time with my family. I appreciate the work you're doing, and I'm right here with you." They may not like the situation any more, but they'll respect that you acknowledged their feelings, that you're also human and not a military robot who expects everyone to just "suck it up", and realize that everyone is pulling through as a team. The leaders I respected most were the ones that often started off bad knews with "I know this isn't what you wanted to hear..." The ones I respected the least often finished bad news with "...you signed the dotted line, suck it up boys and girls."

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2015 2:24 AM

2015-07-27T02:24:51-04:00

If there are issues within the leadership, it should never make its way to the junior soldiers. As leaders, we are to increase morale, not lower it. If the soldiers hear bad talk about certain leaders, they will start to feel the same way and in turn, lose faith in their leaders. That could compromise the internal camaraderie with in the unit. And it is bad leadership.

Response by SFC Nikhil Kumra made Jul 27 at 2015 10:46 PM

2015-07-27T22:46:54-04:00

I can definitely say I'm an upward griper. But it really depends on my leadership, and their presence of mind.

A poor leader looks at gripes and complaints as a "weakness" as opposed to a frustration due to something not being right.

If course that is assuming that the subordinate isn't a chronic whiner and that the gripes make sense...

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2015 3:34 PM

2015-08-03T15:34:21-04:00

Plain and simple. NO! However, subordinates will provide their input, no advise, on the way ahead or doing a task a certain way, but you as the leader make the ultimate call.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 20 at 2015 11:39 AM

2015-08-20T11:39:28-04:00

The leader should be a buffer for negative emotions and missions.