Should Height/Weight be Disregarded if the PT Score is High Enough?

2014-04-13T17:26:57-04:00

We all know that the Army's Height/Weight system has it flaws, and something I believe that could fix part of it would be making it invalid if the PT score is high enough.  My personal opinion is that if you can achieve a 270 with a 90 in each event you shouldn't have to worry if you have too small of a neck for your waistline.  I'm interested to see how others feel about this.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2014 5:39 PM

2014-04-13T17:39:36-04:00

I love having to get taped when I just ran a 12:55 and maxed the PU/SU with time to spare. If you can prove you can handle your weight and don't look like a bag of A$% than yes you should get a pass with a score above 270.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2014 5:40 PM

2014-04-13T17:40:37-04:00

Normally, if you score that high, you are doing something right in the physical fitness category. The problem is that the tape test is such an inaccurate measurement system. Unfortunately it is probably the cheapest and easiest method of measuring body mass index. But one could easily argue if you can be that disciplined to get such a high score, then why can't you apply the same to your weight loss?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2014 5:53 PM

2014-04-13T17:53:46-04:00

I agree with your idea. I have seen good soldiers get flagged and chaptered because they could PT, but couldnt pass weight and tape. I dont know that getting rid of the weight and tape standard for those with any certian PT score with fix the system. I think if you do that you only promote the 'Artifical Standard' of PT in the Army. Once a soldier is over weight leaders will start PTing a soldier untill they get a 270 or whatever and stop taking care of soldiers. I have been in a while and I have never seen a "Speical Pop" that actually helped soldiers. I mean those guys are there because they have problems in certian areas, not just because they cant run. Which is all that the program seems to do. It is also suppose to be done on the commanders time not the soldiers, and I doubt this will help that at all. I dont think that because a soldier gets a 180 PT score he/she should be look at as a poor soldier. They passed!!! I also dont think that a soldier who gets a 300 and fails tape should be looked at as a poor soldier. Really what I think should be addressed is the way that the Army looks at PT, and how we empliment it. If we took more time to address the struggles of individuals and less time telling them they messed up, we could fix a lot more of problems as a whole. If a soldier cant shoot we dont send them to remedial PMI and make everyone do dime drills. We focus on that soldiers weakness and work to improve them.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 15 at 2014 8:22 AM

2014-04-15T08:22:40-04:00

I'd go so far as to say "no height/weight" if you pass your APFT. Having said that, that would also require an APFT that accurately measures combat fitness.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Apr 15 at 2014 8:25 AM

2014-04-15T08:25:15-04:00

My actual opinion, and yes am retired sooooo take it as you like lol, if you pass your APFT and do not present an un-Soldierly appearance in uniform, then I believe the ht/wt should be "waived".

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 9:26 AM

2014-04-15T09:26:41-04:00

I think as long as they can pass the PT test to standards then why fail them for maybe being a couple percent over body fat percentage. My old medic a few years ago was a big guy but had no issues passing PT but kept getting barred from promotion just because he couldn't pass height and weight and because of that he also had gotten barred from re enlistment. I think this is ridiculous, he knew his job better than most and got screwed over

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 9:38 PM

2014-04-16T21:38:32-04:00

Height/Weight should stay... I do not agree that the "current system" should be maintained though.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 17 at 2014 9:59 PM

2014-04-17T21:59:17-04:00

I said this a while back.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 10:07 PM

2014-04-17T22:07:17-04:00

If and only your appearance does not conflict with the wear or look of the uniform. As it says a commander can weigh a soldier based on looks. So if you bust tape by a few percentage points but smoke the test, throw it out. But we all have to agree, the ACU does make you look fat.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 10:36 PM

2014-04-17T22:36:50-04:00

Should an APFT be invalid if the HT/WT data is good?

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2014 7:10 PM

2014-04-18T19:10:47-04:00

The Corps use to allow their Marines who scored a first class PFT be allowed to have a maximum 21% body fat for those overweight. They did away with this around 2009 and now regardless if you score high or not on your PFT and CFT, if you are overweight, you better make that 18% body fat (varies by age). I really don't care, that just means you need to be in better shape and condition since the leeway is gone.

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made Apr 19 at 2014 1:52 PM

2014-04-19T13:52:54-04:00

Personally I believe the Height/weight standards are out of whack.  I had an awesome Assistant Team Leader who was a little shorter than I, but built like a rock.  Didn't pass height/weight, or tape test..  The man had great PT scores, carried his 120 lbs load with no problem and performed his duties in in an excellent manner.  But both he and I had to deal with this issue every time we had a weigh-in.  My belief from personal experience is that if the service-member can do the job, and has a higher PT score, height/weight issues should be made irrelevant.  It is the idea of the "zero-tolerance" principle that has ruined many a life, whether it be for the 4 year old who was "suspended" from daycare for hugging another girl in the room, or the kindergartener who chewed his pop-tart into the shape of a gun, or the soldier who works out, but doesn't meet the height/weight standards.  Arbitrary standards such as these, with mandatory, un-appealable,  or irrevocable consequences such as these are designed to give bureaucrats a way to do their job without having to THINK, often at the expense of the individual.  I Vote to reinstitute the art of THINKING back into our Every day lives.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 24 at 2014 1:56 AM

2014-04-24T01:56:57-04:00

I remember before the Iraq war was going to kick off, we had some soldiers who were over weight and they were of course flagged.  Some of them were in the process of being chaptered, and I am not sure what stage in the chapter they were in.  When the call came down to pack our gear and go to Iraq, those chapters stopped and those soldier were suddenly good enough to go to war, and they performed just as well as the other soldiers who were not over weight and passed their PT test and because of the heat, sweating, three meals a day, those soldier who were over weight loss their weight and were good to go. 

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2014 2:36 PM

2014-04-24T14:36:05-04:00

I feel that should someone request a waiver for BCA and then achieve a PT Score or >270 then their should be no issue when it comes to fitness evaluation. To play devil's advocate here as well, some may say that Height/Weight should also be evaluated for asthetic purposes. Any member of the military should look smart in their uniform and when they are disproportionate due to an inflated waistline it gives the appearance of laziness and a lack of concern for the member's health. Just my thoughts.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2014 10:56 PM

2014-04-24T22:56:49-04:00

The "APFT is a commander's tool". Why is everyone tell him/her what to do with failures.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2014 11:04 PM

2014-04-24T23:04:18-04:00

I wish there was a fourth option. I believe that the Army's way of calculating is flawed. I have seen individuals that score a 300 that are in better shape than most. However, they fail to meet weight standards because they have a small neck. I don't think that is right at all. But if 270 and above no needed Ht/Wt.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2014 11:10 PM

2014-04-24T23:10:23-04:00

The Solution: Stop making uniforms in sizes we are not allow to be. If you do not fit in your uniform, punish that. I have seen lots of Soldiers have to be taped and bust tape who do not in anyway appear unprofessional. Big guy + small neck = HT/WT failure no matter how fit.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2014 11:12 PM

2014-04-24T23:12:51-04:00

We are kicking fit people out because of the inability to use discretion. The system is hurting the system.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2014 9:05 AM

2014-04-25T09:05:47-04:00

They changed the system in the Marines several years ago. Now, you can challenge the weight standard by a getting a body fat measurement, or achieving a 1st class PFT score. If you can still perform, then it shouldn't matter what the scale says.

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2014 9:34 AM

2014-04-25T09:34:35-04:00

I agree with your assessment because I have issues with the Ht/Wt system and my size. At 6'3, 225lbs the Army has my WT at 217lbs max. I score a consistent 290 and above on my APFT. I pass HT/WT under the current system, but still have to be taped. I do believe the current system will be changed in a few years, but only after the Army has done its reduction in the force. This will be one of the first places higher looks at in order to cut the force down.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 25 at 2014 9:56 AM

2014-04-25T09:56:55-04:00

What do you mean by invalid?

Response by SGM Chris Kaukali made Apr 28 at 2014 5:22 PM

2014-04-28T17:22:07-04:00

I do think the cut offs for height/weight and taping need to be re-looked. These numbers, I assume, come from averages from a range of people. Some people are naturally larger than average due to their ethnic background, but it does not mean their physical strength, endurance, or appearance are affected. I've seen many physically fit Soldiers get flagged because they did not meet the tape. Other resources should be made available to measure body fat, because taping is not the 100% solution.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2014 10:21 AM

2014-05-17T10:21:53-04:00

I do not agree with any of your choices. If the Army has set a standard, who are you or I to set a new one? (i.e. >240 or >270) I believe the grading system for the APFT is flawed in and of itself. I believe that it should be a go/no go (with a higher standard than 60%). I also believe that as long as a Soldier looks professional in the uniform, is healthy, and can get that go on the APFT, than height weight shouldn't matter. Now, I also understand that saying someone looks professional is very subjective based on some person's opinion. But ultimately, what does height and weight matter??? If a Soldier can pass the APFT and perform the tasks that are required of their MOS and that of being a basic Soldier than what does it matter if they are at 24% or 26% body fat? I do agree with you that there are too many Soldiers that are penalized because their neck is just a little too skinny or they are just a tad too plump in the middle. Most of the time, you would never know this by looking at them and personally that's what I think matters.

Response by SPC Matthew Birkinbine made May 17 at 2014 10:26 AM

2014-05-17T10:26:36-04:00

I think if you can get an average of 80 or better in each event or a 240 total, the weight allowance shouldn't matter.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2014 11:11 AM

2014-05-17T11:11:08-04:00

A person's weight can vary even during the course of a day.

If you can pass the APFT, aren't you by definition fit?

There was a story that the tape measurement can overestimate a person's fat content by 60%.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2014 8:25 PM

2014-10-13T20:25:56-04:00

Can I vote for option D: revamp the way we calculate BMI? There are other, more reliable methods out there. Yes some may take a little extra time and some minor resources, but when its somebody's career on the line I feel we need to be as accurate as possible. Then the question you have brought up SFC Private RallyPoint Member becomes moot.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2014 5:59 PM

2014-10-19T17:59:54-04:00

The current system needs to be changed, because it is an inaccurate scale to begin with. According to my height it says I should be a 135lbs, which the last time I weighted that amount I looked sick. My present weight does not make me look unprofessional, but I always run about 5 pounds over my max. Being on a permanent profile does make it harder to keep my weight in check, but I deal with it the best I can. As long as a soldier is professional in appearance than I do not see the issue.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2014 6:38 PM

2014-10-19T18:38:22-04:00

Height and weight isn't about PT. It's about projecting an appearance that reflects positively on the Armed Services. The public isn't going to know you score a 300, and even if you told them it has no meaning to them. What they see and understand is your physique. Always remember: perception is reality.

Response by PO3 Sherry Thornburg made Oct 25 at 2014 9:08 PM

2014-10-25T21:08:21-04:00

I and my husband have actively discouraged our son from military service due to the height weight standards. My husband fought them for most of his career because his body type doesn't fit the formula (short, heavy muscled). He was required to stay under 180 to be in weight, which was nearly impossible without starvation diets. Yet, he passed the PT tests with better scores that men 10 years younger. Our son is built the same way. I would love the charts to be tossed and allow pass and fail by performance.

An old chief said, "the PT test should involve an obstacle course that included getting through a standard ship's scuttle."

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2015 11:31 AM

2015-03-25T11:31:16-04:00

I don't think it should come into account if you can pass the PT & are in a shape that you do not appear to be the Pillbury doughboy in uniform. Shouldn't height/weight only matter for certain positions w/in the service, such as pilots? I mean, does your height/weight really matter if you are a predator operator or an admin clerk (not ragging on either, just using them to bring up a point).

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Mar 25 at 2015 11:36 AM

2015-03-25T11:36:09-04:00

Combat doesn't care how you look, only how you perform. Set the standards based on requirements, then enforce them.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Mar 25 at 2015 1:35 PM

2015-03-25T13:35:35-04:00

Completely disagree
APFT scores do not preclude health issues due to obesity

Overweight appearance is still an issue if you can do 60 push-ups

While I agree the tape test has its flaws

Ignoring significant body fat simply because the SM can pass an APFT is not a solution to the problem

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 25 at 2015 1:55 PM

2015-03-25T13:55:13-04:00

H/W, waist measurement etc should be moved to your PHA. You either can pass or fail the actual physical fitness portion. Let the PHA determine if you are healthly

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2015 2:14 PM

2015-03-25T14:14:11-04:00

I thought height and weight was to help present a professional appearance.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2015 3:24 PM

2015-03-25T15:24:46-04:00

I say for the AF at least, get rid of the waist measurement and implement pull ups. I have never seen a fat guy do pull ups.

Response by SFC Walter Mack made Mar 25 at 2015 7:57 PM

2015-03-25T19:57:27-04:00

I was flagged as a young Soldier because I lost weight, but the full inch off my neck caused outpaced the loss in my gut. I knew my weight was down, so didn't worry about it. Whoops, I had to attend the month board and my promotion board twice after losing my promotable status. That said, I had a 280ish with 90 or better in each event, and I ran the Army 10 miler. I had also had a drastic weight loss and body composition shift. None of this was important, even after I failed on a Friday, but came back & passed on the following Monday. However, I have not failed since.

Response by SPC David S. made Mar 25 at 2015 8:13 PM

2015-03-25T20:13:54-04:00

As I was on the larger side at 6'5" at 250 lbs I always max pushups and sit ups and also had a good time on the run while wearing boots. So yes I would agree that height and weight should be waived within the current max mins that are in place.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Mar 25 at 2015 8:32 PM

2015-03-25T20:32:10-04:00

I knew a career SSG that was wired in so tight to the good old boy network that he whipped test after test after test. That ancient DA photo kept him from going farther in his career. This was back in 1992-94 ish. I despised him! They finally threw a rope around him and he got a big severence check. He should have been charged with fraud. LEGITIMATE PT beasts can be as large as they want in my books. However, the Bradley turret is unforgiving! Some jobs can't accomdate the power-houses.

Response by SPC Donald Tribble made Mar 29 at 2015 11:52 PM

2015-03-29T23:52:08-04:00

Had an Amateur Bodybuilder at Fort Meade when I was in. He was put in the "fat boy" program because he weighed too much. So I see it hasn't gotten any better.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Mar 30 at 2015 1:41 AM

2015-03-30T01:41:03-04:00

I think that Height/Weight is a very outmoded, inaccurate system. It rewards skinny people with no strength and punishes very muscular people.

Likewise the waist/neck system is ludicrous. I don't have three chins and a huge neck, so I always got hurt by the tape measure.

The most effective way is the displacement method, as it takes into account mass and volume, and gives a better measure of whether the mass is fat or muscle...

Response by Cpl Charles Vadnais made Apr 2 at 2015 4:14 PM

2015-04-02T16:14:15-04:00

The height/weight standards were a bad joke when I was in the Corps about 5+ years ago. I was responsible for BCP at both a Battalion and Regimental level for a number of years. I can count on one hand the number of Marines in about 3 years that went on BCP and actually deserved to. The vast majority fell into one of two categories: Short and stocky, or tall and fit. I saw plenty of guys who didn't tape out simply because the taping standards for being tall assume you can take cover behind a flag pole.

That's not even mentioning the unsafe practices Marines would undertake to skirt the standards if they were close to being over: using sauna's to drop water weight by making themselves dangerously dehydrated, spending all their time in the gym doing nothing but neck exercises in an attempt to tape out, eating disorders, and plenty of other things that were completely unnecessary since most of them were clearly fit and good PTer's.

Especially since Marines must be weighed individually as-is, they may as well give leadership the ability to say that a Marines/Sailor/Soldier/Airman/etc body composition does not affect their fitness or professionalism.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 4:37 PM

2015-04-02T16:37:10-04:00

Height and Weight is more about appearance than performance. I would not object to a height/weight/tape waiver if a Soldier can pass a standard APFT with a 240+. I value performance over appearance every time.

Response by SPC Kortney Kistler made Apr 2 at 2015 4:40 PM

2015-04-02T16:40:06-04:00

I was a heavy equipment operator. I had a carpenter in my company who maybe weighed 135lbs. He couldn't drive a nail with a nail gun, but he could score high on the APFT. As far as CTT went, he could score high on his APFT.

In a sense he was just a uniform, someone who could pull a guard shift, but he still made 5.
I had plenty of people that made a minimum board score and got there 5's on deployment. Some good, some just uniforms.

I think ability is more than being 5'9" and 165 lbs.

My point is there should be a lot more qualifications than the APFT, a tape, and a scale. There are plenty of uniforms out there that do just enough not to get noticed, but don't really do enough to help the cause.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 4:43 PM

2015-04-02T16:43:53-04:00

I agree that if a Soldier can achieve excellence in APFT that they should be allowed to have the effects of 600-9 waived as long as the APFT is conducted to standard. The only way to maintain verifiable records of this is to mandate video recording of each APFT. One other consideration is appearance in uniform...but I believe, through personal observation that if a Soldier can attain 90 in each event, that they will look acceptable in their uniform. I had a 1SG that was a soft 230...but on 2 occasions (out of 6) out ran me on the 2MR. last one I had a 12:21...he passed me and the BDE CDR and finished with 12:10. He was also older by around 5 yrs or so and on a Run Across Georgia (Team Brave & Bold, 2011), he took the 1st leg of the 24 hour race - 8mi - and got lost (wrong turn and self corrected) - AND STILL BEAT RANGERS on other teams to finish that 8mi in 50 minutes. The man was a beast.

Response by SFC Benjamin Parsons made Apr 2 at 2015 4:44 PM

2015-04-02T16:44:59-04:00

Back when all this started it smelled like a RIF exercise.
I saw a few really good (and fit) soldiers tossed aside in spite of herculean efforts of the CoC to stop it.
A few slobs too.
Has never felt good or just to me. An exceptional APFT should not make a difference.
Does the Marine Corps have a similar program?

Response by SPC David Hannaman made Apr 2 at 2015 5:11 PM

2015-04-02T17:11:41-04:00

I saw several "Monsters in the gym" that got discharged in my time...

Discharge "The Hulk" because he doesn't meet height/weight is stupid.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 5:18 PM

2015-04-02T17:18:40-04:00

Coming from the Navy side PRT, i believe strongly that if a person can pass the PRT no problem then the weight standards should not come into play at all. It only makes sense that if you can pass the physical readiness tests set forth by the branches, then you weight and height should not matter

Response by SSG Scott Burk made Apr 2 at 2015 5:34 PM

2015-04-02T17:34:19-04:00

I was always big at 6'4" and anywhere from 210-230 in Basic and AIT, to 275 later on. In my peak, I could bench 405. I always passed the PT test, but was still bitched at for being "over weight". I think the stick men were just jealous. :-)

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 6:23 PM

2015-04-02T18:23:18-04:00

Perfect example of why I think this is a good idea. I had a SPC, (who is making his UFC debut this Saturday), who could not pass height and weight. He was a scholarship wrestler in college and needed to maintain his height and weight. He also did not pass tape. He had a very high PT score. He was barred from awards and promotions. You would be lucky if you had a guy with half his heart and dedication.

Response by SSG James Bigbie made Apr 2 at 2015 7:45 PM

2015-04-02T19:45:35-04:00

We had a guy in my first unit, a wrestler, who kept failing the ht/wt even though he was in no way fat. He finally had to do the pool test to pass.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 7:48 PM

2015-04-02T19:48:33-04:00

I believe that there should be a provision whereby a service member that earns at or above 80% in ALL exercise events of their Branch's Physical Fitness assessment should be exempt from Ht/Wt standards.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2015 9:42 PM

2015-04-02T21:42:19-04:00

I think it's a joke in most cases unless you really need it, I know that whenever myself or my former SL who is pretty bulky, whenever we had to get height/weight or even taped when our scores are well above 270 and the fact that you can obviously tell that we're in great shape is just a waste of time

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 3 at 2015 12:25 AM

2015-04-03T00:25:50-04:00

No Height and Weight above 270 or 290... so long as you look good/sharp (don't look fat).

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2015 12:40 AM

2015-04-03T00:40:21-04:00

I have seen this mentioned/discussed by CSsMs for quite some time while it never gained any traction. While this may not be a bad idea, how many people really would benefit from this change? The real question is, who do you want to pull you out of a overturned/burning vehicle? A fit fatty or a 135 Solider pound X-cross country runner who scores 300 Pts on their APFT that can barely lift their body weight?

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Apr 3 at 2015 9:32 AM

2015-04-03T09:32:03-04:00

I dig that the picture is from USMC OCS.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2015 10:09 AM

2015-04-03T10:09:38-04:00

This has been a topic for discussion for a while now. Obviously there are valid points for both sides. IMO it comes down to looking good in your uniform. Yes a fat Marine/Solider can run a 300 PFT. Yes someone in shape can run a 250. However, when all is said and done, it is about our appearance and what the American people see matters. I know I didn't answer the question but, that is just my opinion. I can see it going either way.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2015 11:00 AM

2015-04-03T11:00:48-04:00

The Marines got it right. That's an oxymoron for being flagged and you have a 280 or higher

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2015 11:26 AM

2015-04-03T11:26:25-04:00

I wish I could have voted for "the ht/wt system needs an overhaul anyway, but standards for body mass are necessary despite your score." As is though, I voted for option A. I have always had to be taped, under the cut off when I enlisted, over the cut off now. I'll admit to having trouble with my weight and PT in the past (Meaning I was a lazy fatbody who deserved to be discharged). For now however, I view getting taped as a constant reminder of the victory I felt after dropping the weight and raising my PT score.

Response by SGT John Rauch made Apr 3 at 2015 12:56 PM

2015-04-03T12:56:29-04:00

I have always been 200lbs or more, at my peak I could run the 2 mile in 13 flat without even pushing myself, maxed the pushups and scored pretty well on situps as well, and even though I could outperform many of the smaller guys, I was barred and flagged because my neck was one inch too small for my waist size. In my unit it seemed like appearance was way more important than performance. I was always around 1 or 2 percent over on BMI. after years of being told that you are fat and useless you begin to believe it yourself and once that happens its all down hill from there.(speaking from experience) my unit took things to the extreme though. I was forced to take a PT test every week by one of my 1SGs.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2015 2:12 PM

2015-04-03T14:12:31-04:00

I don't see an issue with changing it. Your height and weight is meaningless. The entire point of a fitness test is to see if you are up to fitness standards. If you can pass the test then where's the issue?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2015 4:01 PM

2015-04-03T16:01:45-04:00

I'm all for either revising or eliminating the current HT/WT standard. The current system just does not accomplish what it is supposed to. I've personally seen a lot more in-shape people screwed over by failing tape than I have fat bodies.

I haven't had an APFT score below 270 since I was a PVT in 2007. Since hitting the gym harder in 2010 I've averaged in the 290's but I now require to be taped. There's been a few times I've been within 1%. On one occasion my wife barely failed tape right after scoring a 320 on the APFT. Furthermore, we had a Soldier in one of my past units failing tape as a collegiate wrestler. He has an absolute animal on the APFT and had a doctor's note stating he was 5% body fat, but he still ended up flagged over failing tape. While this is going on we have fat bodies with huge necks sliding by.

We either need to go to a more accurate system or change the requirement to being at the commander's discretion.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2015 7:05 PM

2015-04-03T19:05:46-04:00

This comment is marine-specific, so I have tried to elaborate for those unfamiliar with certain acronyms:

This is actually a hot button issue, especially among the rank and file, at least at my unit.

10 years ago, unless they didn't like you, you could be overweight and have BCP (Body Composition Program) paperwork swept under the rug if you ran a 1st class PFT (Physical Fitness Test; the CFT [Combat Fitness Test] did not exist). Of course, it was a different time- the United States was in the middle of fighting two major wars in the middle east and needed to retain and promote, especially since this was when the OIF surge was just kicking off; I can recall several NCOs (E-4/E-5) in their late 30's(+) who had been out since the 90's coming back in during this time, bringing an 'old corps' mentality which, to be sure, was introduction of a system that was known to "bend" some rules for the greater good of everyone- some of these rules include "losing" bad paperwork to keep marines in the fight, or "correcting" the problem in lieu of paperwork, known as the option of "pen or pain" (which today we call hazing and/or assault).

Since then, with the draw-downs and a return to peacetime activities, standards have tightened down significantly with policies unheard of in 2005: MAP (Marine Appearance Program) dictates that you don't even need to be overweight to be assigned to BCP- if you look like a 'bag of ass' in your uniform, you can be assigned to the program. You could be running 300 PFT/ CFTs but if you are overweight, and fail to tape in regulations on your Body Fat Percentage, then you are not even given the option to get promoted, and you will receive a permanent entry in your SRB of the incident, a negative counseling, and the highest markings you can receive on your proficiency and conduct is a 3.8/3.8 (average, as in, doing the absolute bare minimum, is a 4.2/4.2). The best that I have ever heard it put was from a Staff Sergeant who was living proof of his quote: "You can recover your career easier from getting a DUI than you can from being assigned to BCP".

It is a sad reality, and I am by know means knocking command decision, as I do see the method behind the madness. However, I do believe that the overall performance of the marine in question should be taken into consideration before being assigned to such programs; I believe the program should not be 'issued out', because it should not be a punishment- it should be the commander's attempt at correcting a deficiency in order to get that individual back into the fight. Even just getting a 1st Class PFT (226 at 26 yrs or below, 200 at 27+ yrs) should, in my opinion, warrant at least one exclusion of being overweight. After all, that's why it is a 1st Class PFT, because a score that meets or exceeds those scores are exceptional, not the expectation.

*I know many of you probably feel the same way, but I must play devil's advocate to myself: being WAY overweight is inexcusable, because neither you or I want to have to fireman carry someone twice our weight to a corpsman/medic while under fire. After all, they do pay us to conduct PT and stay in shape.*

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2015 7:29 PM

2015-04-03T19:29:49-04:00

90 points in each event

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2015 7:48 PM

2015-04-03T19:48:36-04:00

This seems to be common sense but we stick system of measurements that was first developed during the great depression. Big guy who can run like a horse and handle his weight, why not.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2015 8:26 PM

2015-04-03T20:26:22-04:00

This is a huge issue in MN where a majority of people are Norwegian/German decent and have a bigger build than the average person... I have unfortunately had the task of taping my female Soldiers that consistently run 270+ PT only to have them fail ht/wt and then fail taping under the standards... These are great Soldiers that look good in the uniform, but because the standards for calculating for females is made for a Barbie doll that has more difference between hips to waist for females, they are considered fat... The unfortunate fact of genetics being the factor and that people of the German or Norwegian decent do not have much difference between waist and hips has caused us to lose some outstanding soldiers and has cost them their careers... I believe that if they make well with appearance and they can pass PT, ht/wt should not matter or commanders need to have a waiver program or something...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2015 1:01 PM

2015-04-04T13:01:39-04:00

Checks and balances.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 10:29 PM

2015-04-08T22:29:58-04:00

If the army changed due to everyone's opinion on this discussion, what would be the solution for alternate events?? For example I've seen walkers who have an outstanding appearance but then some that do not. Both passing the pt test. The system is extremely flawed but it's the same standard for all... Any thoughts?

Response by SGT Michelle Saunders made Apr 9 at 2015 7:29 AM

2015-04-09T07:29:58-04:00

I agree that the Army PFT is certainly due for a revamp. However, it's one thing to pass a PFT, especially when the standards on not that hard...But, to look like Jonny Bag O'donuts in uniform is NOT OK. That said, the standards should be written in accordance (if memory serves correct) with FM 22-5 and ensure professional appearance is to standard. To do away with it all together would create more of a cluster and allow the slackers to slack better.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Apr 9 at 2015 8:19 AM

2015-04-09T08:19:59-04:00

SFC Private RallyPoint Member , I don't know too much about Army PT standards, so I'm going with 240 or higher. The simple reason is: some people in the military lift weights and/or are body builders. So while they have big necks, small waists, and can most likely get higher than the minimum required scores in each area of a PT test they still won't pass height/weight.

This is a flaw in the system, and one that every branch has. The Navy has actually started seriously talking about changing the system.

So my overall opinion is; if a person is very obviously in shape but is deemed "overweight" because of a flawed system then something needs to change.

Response by PV2 Karlus Good made Apr 14 at 2015 7:38 PM

2015-04-14T19:38:11-04:00

Performance should be the only quantifier...period!!!!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 7:39 PM

2015-04-14T19:39:55-04:00

I am a powerlifter, have weighed between 175-200 my entire career so far. I normally score between a 275-290 on the PT test. I have had to cut-back on my lifting so I don't bust tape. I don't look fat, my uniform looks nice. I don't think the height weight should matter if you look professional. However I am biased.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 7:47 PM

2015-04-14T19:47:30-04:00

The way i see it, if we're in combat and he gets shot im not sure i can drag him to safety... the height and weight system needs to be revised but not gotten rid of

Response by SFC Charles S. made Apr 14 at 2015 7:50 PM

2015-04-14T19:50:49-04:00

I'm not sure that scoring a number is enough to make a decision on this. I agree if you score >270 should be fit... but I've seen Large not muscular guys sore well but were not exactly fit. Even with the current System there is areas for improvement. I think there should be allowances for Fit soldiers to avoid having to always do tape or BF%, but how do you manage something that diverse in a program to make allowances while not being too loose to catch the Fatties? The current system while not without flaws seems to work without having to reinvent the wheel.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 8:03 PM

2015-04-14T20:03:55-04:00

I think if you score at least a 270 you shouldn't need to do height and weight. However, what needs to be done is actually making those higher ranking, way out of shape individuals take a PT test and do height and weight. Don't preach "the standard" to me if you are CLEARLY not within that standard.

Response by SFC Michael Krahling made Apr 14 at 2015 8:23 PM

2015-04-14T20:23:53-04:00

I always struggled with the height / weight because the system is terrible. I would be 1-2 lbs over weight and fail the tape test every time. But easily scored over 270 on the PT test. It used to piss me off when the LT running the fat farm was smaller than me and I beat him on the PT test but he would have to teach me about proper eating and exercise etc... Who would you rather have watching your back, a "fat" guy like myself who did well on the PT test or some little 125 lb soldier who could not pull you out of trouble if needed because he was just to damn smal.
Screw the whole system. Not only the PT score should be the better standard but overall strength standards should be implemented too.
This height / weight was a big part of why I got out after 15 years. I was sick and tired of the battle. Every year was tougher because I would gain back all the weight I was forced to loose and then a couple extra lbs. it really added up over the years.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 9:07 PM

2015-04-14T21:07:24-04:00

Speaking from experience, the tape test is the only place I've lost weight and been told I had gotten fatter. Yes, its because I lost weight in my neck and gut at the same time, and I'm working on building up my neck. But I've passed 4 pt tests in a row, not by a whole lot, but I passed. And I've dropped 20 pounds, and the tape test said I went from 24 percent to 25 percent, needing 23 percent to pass and go to wlc.so yes. It's a dumb test.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 9:37 PM

2015-04-14T21:37:17-04:00

I have to both agree and disagree with the current system. The reason I disagree with it is the tape method is the most inaccurate way of finding an individuals body fat percentage. I have seen bodybuilders and powerlifters who regularly score 250+ on their PT tests get flagged for failing to maintain their weight and also disagree with that.

The one thing I do like about the current system is that regardless of how your perform, every soldier is supposed to look the image of a soldier in the eyes of civilians and if you can score high on an APFT but look like a bag of smashed assholes, then I have a problem with it. We are a professional organization and all soldiers should adhere to that image if they wish to be successful in my opinion.

By no means am I a PT stud (I don't train for the APFT), but I have never failed a test and have always maintained a consistent weight and appearance since I was a Private.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 10:03 PM

2015-04-14T22:03:55-04:00

the system really is a flawed one. ive seen sailors who can do an outstanding on their prt but bc of how the system is layed out, they are either a failure on the height/weight or theyre borderline. its disappointing and something that really should be reviewed more often than it is at the moment.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 10:35 PM

2015-04-14T22:35:22-04:00

Honestly I think if you can meet the physical standard then it shouldn't matter at all their height and weight. I've seen great soldiers than can pass the apft and were more knowledgeable than people who have been in for twice as long get threatened with a chapter for being overweight.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 11:08 PM

2015-04-14T23:08:00-04:00

5'11, 225lbs. The only army pt test I didn't max was after a knee replacement. 1 year after, 297... the APFT is not a good gauge of fitness. Put 120lbs of gear on me, have me walk ~20 klicks, over two mountains, three firefights, 36 hours later still chugging along. Yet I get taped every time.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2015 11:16 PM

2015-04-14T23:16:00-04:00

If someone can pass a PFT with a score of 270 or higher the HT/WT should not be a factor. For example, I taped someone and according to our HT/WT standards he was over his BF % but scored a 282 on his PFT a couple weeks ago. Also people should look proper in uniform, no stress testing buttons

Response by CW2 Daniel Torrez made Apr 15 at 2015 7:38 AM

2015-04-15T07:38:17-04:00

As a person who was always getting taped but regularly scoring 85% or better in each event, no less than 95% in the run, I believe that if you are doing above the average for PT and do not appear to be "unfit" or carry an unprofessional appearance, then yes, the HT/WT should be waived. I knew a lot of Soldiers who did the same thing but couldn't pass HT/WT, but could out-PT a whole platoon of Soldiers that looked the part who were barely passing. It makes sense to do, so don't expect the Army to make that change.

Response by LTC Scott O'Neil made Apr 15 at 2015 8:37 AM

2015-04-15T08:37:47-04:00

As one of those who walked the line from commissioning to retirement the height weight regulations are truly flawed. In 1985 I was 5'9: and 195 lbs with 7% body fat and I was taped dipped and calipered I scored a 300 on my PT test and was stilled dinged on my OER for my height and weight. When I retired in 2010 I was 220lbs and still passed my tape test and I also retained a 240 PT test average. Again I was counseled on my weight and look . I wrestled in college, High School and a little while in the Army, I played Football in High School and I lifted weights throughout my career. I was by no means Fat or out of shape. Lastly there are many different body types and no one type fits in the Height Weight Mold the military has adopted. Not everyone is 6' ft and 175 lbs and can run like a gazelle and lift weights like a gorilla.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 9:10 AM

2015-04-15T09:10:12-04:00

A standard is a standard, we follow the standard as Soldiers. I do admit there are flaws but we follow the standard. Being in shape and fit for duty is important and if your a leader its your responsibility to be an example and be the standard.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 9:17 AM

2015-04-15T09:17:07-04:00

I've spoke on this before on RP. Good on you if you can kill the PT test, however, if your appearance is being affected by your weight, you should consider slimming down. The perception that you are fat and lazy is going to outweigh (pun intended) your physical capabilities.

Response by CPO John Best made Apr 15 at 2015 11:11 AM

2015-04-15T11:11:46-04:00

Yes. As a bodybuilder, "I always had to go to the tape". The pencil neck geek mama's boys that developed the height/weight scale were way off the beam.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 1:10 PM

2015-04-15T13:10:00-04:00

The taping process is subjective at best. 600-9 states how to lay the tape on the neck, chest, waist etc, but most of the time if your "buddy" is doing the tape he will pull a little tighter or give extra slack. If the Army is going to live and die by the tape, use a system that is less subjective.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 1:27 PM

2015-04-15T13:27:12-04:00

I've been in this position. It's not my weight that is the problem, it's my height. I typically pass a PT Test with 255 to 270, max pushups, almost max situps and roughly 16 min 2 mile at the age of 30. I am 66" tall and normally weigh in around 195-200pnds. Average neck size is 17" and 37" waist. I am right on the line. The army wants me at 168, i haven't weighed that since I was 16 years old. There have been a few times where I am physically training for mass gains and strength during the winter and then work on weight control and endurance and speed during the spring, summer and fall months (MN winters are cold and treadmill running sucks). Every six months between ht/wt checks and PT tests are always a game of cat and mouse; training like a wrestler to cut weight and after weigh-in make the gains that I want. I have even heard of Soldiers that are trained professional lifters and body builders that have been kicked out of military schools because they passed the PT test but failed the tape. I think the Army needs to realize that this is no longer the 60's and the new American body type is bigger, faster and stronger. There is a difference between mean and strong and fat and weak. Current Army Body comp doesn't measure the mean and strong correctly.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 1:31 PM

2015-04-15T13:31:47-04:00

I feel as if the height/weight and entire pt test are complete waste of time. I watch a soldier who is a 120 pounds soaking wet in boots and Utes run a 11:20 2 mile max push up and sit ups and never even get blinked at for height weight but on the opposite end of the spectrum its always trouble. I feel as if the Army and all branches in general need to turn to a more combat related scenario because if a soldier who is 120 and 150 with full kit needs to pick up a soldier 200 plus and get him or her out of combat they are going to be hurting

Response by CPT David Landrum made Apr 15 at 2015 1:57 PM

2015-04-15T13:57:59-04:00

The only concern this leaves, however is military appearance.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 4:00 PM

2015-04-15T16:00:37-04:00

While I agree that the system is flawed and the Army BFI test is quite inaccurate, I don't believe it should be left to the judgement of a soldiers COC if they're out of standard or not. Although the standard for the APFT is clear and the majority of units maintain the standards we would be foolish to believe this is the case everywhere. By giving a COC the final judgement call on go or no go we would take away the quantitative measure throughout the army. This could also lead to a nightmare of appeals from soldiers deemed out,of standard

Response by CPT Jeff Spivey made Apr 15 at 2015 6:11 PM

2015-04-15T18:11:22-04:00

Ht/Wt and tape testing is the last allowable form of discrimination. If gay people can openly serve and women can go to Ranger School, how can anyone possibly say overweight people can't serve?!

Response by SPC Robert Cain made Apr 15 at 2015 8:05 PM

2015-04-15T20:05:32-04:00

I found that my weight was never at target but with measurements I was always the right size I also did well on my afpt scores I agree if you have good scores the hight and weight should be waved

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 8:07 PM

2015-04-15T20:07:58-04:00

You might be a PT stud, and that's great, but this Army is not an Army of the individual—it's a team. If you get shot, and you weigh 300 lbs plus gear, who's going to carry you to safety? Granted, I think we might be due for a revamp of the system, or maybe we could just come up with an all around maximum weight (because under the current system, if I'm 6' 8" I can weigh a lot more than someone who's 5', but that won't help someone who has to carry me out if I'm injured). We need to address /why/ we have the height and weight, and maybe we can dial that in a little better than we're doing now. We could hit professional appearance and ability to be evacuated from combat as considerations in other ways.

Response by SR Charles Savage made Apr 15 at 2015 8:19 PM

2015-04-15T20:19:09-04:00

The enemy doesn't care what your height or weight is . If you're combat capable you're combat ready

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 8:48 PM

2015-04-15T20:48:23-04:00

I hate watching someone new that is skinny tape a Soldier, I.e me. I am the fat girl that is always taped. Once in my career I wasn't taped and I still think the scale was broken. It never fails I walk in the room to be taped and this slim Soldier that never had an issue with weight is holding the tape and I watch him put his finger in between the soldier and the tape. Thats usually when I ask where is the regulation and why do you not have it out following the examples. I need every quarter or half inch I can get. After two ACL replacements in two years on the same knee I kicked ass on my diagnostic test last week with a 225. Yes we need to train our Soldiers better so they are more consistant with the tape but if we can perform with no problem and don't look like slobs in our uniforms leave us alone.

Response by CPT Michael Grimsley made Apr 15 at 2015 9:25 PM

2015-04-15T21:25:26-04:00

General Schwarzkopf observed that the goal of the Army height-weight program was to ensure fit soldiers, not soldiers that look good in uniform. This is certainly true if a soldier is fit enough to score well on his PT test. Looks don't matter, being able to perform your duty does.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 11:27 PM

2015-04-15T23:27:28-04:00

This morning I took a PT test with three soldiers from my unit and pretty thoroughly destroyed them. The highest push-up raw score from them was where I stopped for my first pause, and in one minute I did more situps than most of them did in two. One of them did manage to pass me on the run, but I did a 12 mile ruckmarch on Friday and still have two open sores on my feet. In the end I scored a 292, but I was the only one getting taped at the end of the PT test. The height and weight standards were set nearly 40 years ago based on averages from Vietnam, before we expected soldiers to carry body armor and the load of gear that we use today. I'd suggest raising the minimum standard from 180 to 210 or 240 and only measuring height and weight as a diagnostic tool when someone fails.

Response by SGT Roger Norris made Apr 16 at 2015 12:02 AM

2015-04-16T00:02:46-04:00

I think that if you fail PFT then and only then should weight and body fat be taken into account. A person should have body fat checked only if they are a certain percentage over the standard. That is because that could be an indicator of why you failed. Now notice I didn't say anything about height and that is because it shouldn't matter how tall you are unless your MOS has a max height (i. e. pilots). It shouldn't matter how big your neck is or how big your waist is. I don't know what should be done to make it better but using a tape measure to determine body fat has to go because it is inaccurate by up to 10% maybe even more. I know this from personal experience. I was overwieght one time according to the standard by 2.5%. I was always in that range but I passed my PFT. My battalion commander and I had a discussion about this and he didn't think it was right either. I asked if there was a way to prove that using the tape measure for body fat was inaccurate. He did some checking and got it approved for me to take the dunk test to measure my body fat. The results of the test were as the commander and I thought. I was under what the tape measure said by almost 10%. I was able to move on in my career and retired after 23 years. I whole-heartedly agree that the way all of the standards are determined needs to change but I will leave that to people that are a whole lot smarter than me because I personally would have NO idea where to start.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 11:31 AM

2015-04-16T11:31:12-04:00

The Navy used to have this option but there were a lot of requirements that you must meet. Example, you could only be a certain % over, must score an excellent or higher, and it was ultimately CO's discretion. However, now per the new policy if you fail the BCA (body composition assessment) which is required within a certain time frame before the PRT (physical readiness test) portion, then you will automatically fail the PRT portion and will not be allowed to even conduct the test. Resulting in an overall failure of the PFA (physical fitness assessment) for that cycle.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 12:19 PM

2015-04-16T12:19:26-04:00

During my last 7 years i was lucky enough to be in positions to do PT program, and began maxing every test, i always got taped but always passed. I PCSd to Germany with 18years in, was given a PT test apon arival because everyone forged thier records, or so i was told. Maxed the PT test but failed the tape. The CO had me read in on the fat boy program the next day and told me he would seperate me if i didn't shape up. I was so mad i was shaking, the thought that this leader thought he was in controll of my career. More than 15y later and id still like to choke him.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 1:58 PM

2015-04-16T13:58:01-04:00

If they can consistently pass a PT test at any given time and they don't resemble a bloated Jaba the Hit in uniform then I'm ok with it.

Response by PO3 James Hughes made Apr 16 at 2015 2:10 PM

2015-04-16T14:10:34-04:00

Yes if you can pass the PT with a high enough score your ht/wt should not matter. I was one of those guys that was in great shape but because my numbers were bad I was force into the fat boy program. Even though I passed my PT and was in good physical condition I would get low evaluations in military bearing because my ht/wt numbers were bad.

Response by SGT Kevin Smith made Apr 16 at 2015 2:39 PM

2015-04-16T14:39:32-04:00

I believe that height/weight should not matter if you pass period. I know there are people on here that might disagree, but for some people, a 270 or 290 PT score is not realalistic. Why not make it 250. The Army standard is 180.

Response by SGM David W. Carr LOM, DMSM MP SGT made Apr 16 at 2015 2:43 PM

2015-04-16T14:43:59-04:00

Do a body fat test on all soldiers and get rid of the current standard

Response by CPL J Sannizzaro made Apr 16 at 2015 7:24 PM

2015-04-16T19:24:37-04:00

Height and weight are complete BS to me. I was on the "Fat Boy" program for almost 2 years, passing all my PT tests. Extended scale for push-ups and sit-ups, my run was never great but always close to 13 min. Interestingly I could keep it under 15 with 50 lbs ruck. I was sent to the Darnell Hospital in Fort Hood where at 6 feet and 220 pounds they measured me at 2% body fat! They almost killed me trying to make me fit a mild I never would.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2015 11:12 PM

2015-04-17T23:12:13-04:00

While the current idea of HT/WT may be flawed, there is good reason behind it. Body composition and BMI have an effect on your health and ability to handle loads as well as injuries. What I would like to see is a more complete BMI exam instead of HT/WT. Two options- the better of the two being to use a skin fold caliber to get the thickness of the tissues at multiple sites (bicep, tricep, subscapular, and at the iliac crest). It has been shown these give reasonable accuracy. The other option is to add to the taping. The circumference measurements should be neck, waist, hip, thigh, and calf to give a more accurate estimation of total body mass index(instead of just waist and neck).

My 2 cents.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 10:25 AM

2015-04-19T10:25:40-04:00

One of my friends is about to lose her ROTC scholarship over this height/weight thing. She enlisted four years ago and has never scored under a 270 and has had to basically stop eating all together because of proportions on her body she can't control. Just think it's a flawed system.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 6:13 PM

2015-04-24T18:13:23-04:00

The thing that everyone forgets, the ABCP is not just about health, it's about maintaining a Soldierly appearance. This is important for our image and recruiting.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2015 12:14 PM

2015-04-27T12:14:27-04:00

One thing about the taping that never made sense to me was that the bigger your neck the less body fat you had. Some people have naturally small necks and that can add on 3% or so to your body fat.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 2:11 PM

2015-05-05T14:11:18-04:00

I've always thought the answer to this question should be YES. If your PT score is good enough, then HT/WT would/should not be required. I always believed this. Then, I was injured during pre-deployment training in 2008. In 2010, I received a permanent profile to do the alternate 800 yd swim event. That is a GO/NO GO event. So even if I max my push-ups and sit-ups, my best score is only a 200. So now I cannot agree with the score high enough maxim. If the Army were to change the APFT scoring and grade the 3 alternate events on a scale like the 3 regular events, then we can talk again. For my age group, I have 23:30 to complete the swim, but I regularly complete it somewhere between 13-15 minutes. Why can't I get points for this event, and for doing it faster than the max time, just like the 2M run?

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 4:52 PM

2015-05-05T16:52:57-04:00

If height/weight is about professional appearance, the tattoo argument just blew that out of the water.

If you can PT and do your job, appearance shouldn't matter. That is what we argued for when the tattoo policy was changed.

Response by SGT Curtis Earl made May 6 at 2015 12:17 PM

2015-05-06T12:17:05-04:00

The HT/WT standard is arbitrary and unscientific. The APFT doesn't really measure fitness nor does it predict job performance. We waste man hours training and stressing over duties that are irrelevant to our jobs. I came out of basic 5'11, 212 and rock solid. While on active duty, I got taped every PT test for 4 years. At my last duty station, I got taped every month. My last 1SG - a reservist of 30 years who'd never been taped - held special extra PT sessions for those of us who needed to be taped. NO excuses.

*But Top, I scored higher on the APFT than you did
*But Top, I look good in uniform

His response, 'if you're outside the standard, you have to meet me in the parking lot after final formation for remedial PT'. Don't hold it against me, but I openly laughed during his last PT test prior to retirement. Not only did he have to take an alternate event (the bike), but he had to be taped. This from the guy that said he wouldn't submit promotion packets for people with permanent profiles!

Response by SPC Michael Clark made May 6 at 2015 1:46 PM

2015-05-06T13:46:38-04:00

Standards are Standards... Read AR 40-501 Standards of Medical Fitness.

Also, many other underlying health factors may be present in an overweight troop. Just because you can pass a PT Test doesn't mean that you won't be diabetic. PT alone doesn't make you "Fit to Fight".

People who are mentally unstable can pass fitness tests, would you want them in the foxhole next to you?

Adhere to the standards, for failing to adhere to the standards or maintaining the standards has caused a lot of unfit troops into the service.

http://cdm16635.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/collection/p16635coll11/id/672

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2015 5:51 PM

2015-06-05T17:51:41-04:00

Maybe if they get a 290, taking all 3 events... Bottom line it's really rare that someone gets a 300 and are enrolled in ABCP...

Response by SSG Robert Spina made Oct 16 at 2015 12:12 PM

2015-10-16T12:12:24-04:00

I TOTALLY AGREE IF A SOLIDER PROVES THAT HE OR SHE CAN PASS THE PHYSICAL DEMANDS OF THE PT TEST THEN THEY SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM HIEGHT/WEIGHT STANDARDS ONE EXAMPLE I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT IS I ONCE HAD A SOLIDER IN MY UNIT THAT WAS A BODY BUILDER THERE WAS NOT ONE ONCE OF FAT ON THIS MAN HE WAS EVACUATED OF BEING SOMETHING LIKE 40 LBS OVER WEIGHT HE CRUSHED THE PT TEST YET HE WAS PLACE IN THE WEIGHT CONTROL PPROGRAM JUST DIDNT MAKE SENSE

Response by SMSgt Ryan King made Jan 8 at 2016 5:25 PM

2016-01-08T17:25:58-05:00

For any service, if you can score in the top 90 percent range on all of the categories I do not thinks the BMI measurements should apply. I remember the BMI passing people who could barley make the min requirements for everything else. But the biggest question is can you perform you job function. I can see a computer skilled person not looking or be in as good of shape as "grunt" but does that really stop them from doing their job to a high level?

Response by SGT Rafferty Vaughan made Jan 8 at 2016 5:51 PM

2016-01-08T17:51:45-05:00

When I first joined I was pretty lean with average scores (260 and above) my scores never really changed too much but my weight (stomach did) and honestly I was pretty unhealthy for a good 4 years while barely scraping by during Ht/Wt the army as a whole needs to consider more education and development on health not physical accomplishment, because pride and not losing your job can motivate you to pass even when you are declining in health. Healthy soldiers not "PT Studs" is what we need

Response by SPC Adam Avinger made Jan 8 at 2016 9:08 PM

2016-01-08T21:08:54-05:00

Somebody here posted that a permanent profile troop would be always held to height weight requirements due to being unable to participate in certain events (depending on the profile).... If your on a permanent profile which keeps you from being able to do push ups, sit ups, or a two mile run, your basically also "non-deployable". With that, it's my opinion, that if the military decides to retain you whatever reasons, that individual should most CERTAINLY adhere to height/weight. Being on profile isn't an excuse to break regulations, because your midol wore off. If your on a perm profile, the military should bounce your backside out of its ranks. If they need you for conus mission critical shit, okay fine. Otherwise, if they won't let you to broke to serve, you damn well ought not be able to stay in either!

Response by SGT Marc Johnston made Jan 8 at 2016 10:50 PM

2016-01-08T22:50:52-05:00

I failed the tape test then got kicked out for being about 1/2% over weight in 1998. I Re-Enlisted back in 2002 4 1/2 years in the Kansas Army National Guard. and did 2 tours 1 year at FT. Leavenworth as part of Operation Noble Eagle. Then 1 1/2 year tour 1 year at Camp Bondsteel,Kosovo KFOR rotation 6B

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2016 5:44 AM

2016-01-09T05:44:23-05:00

Anyone know why they use a picture with Marines for an Army post.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2016 11:43 AM

2016-01-09T11:43:35-05:00

Absolutely concur with this. Not saying I am solid muscle right now, but I do dance on the line of my ht/wt standard. That being said, I have never come close to busting tape and scored a 293 on my last APFT. I could stand to lose some belly fat but am nowhere near a level where I think taping is necessary.

Response by 1SG John Aaron made Jan 9 at 2016 12:56 PM

2016-01-09T12:56:14-05:00

I would average around a 270 on my PT test and would have to get taped almost every time for 29 years. If you have three NCOs tape the same Soldier you get three different results. I agree with the idea that if you score over 270 you are exempt from the HT/WT. nobody is happy with the current system and no one has come up with a practical replacement that can be done in a unit orderly room.

Response by SGT Eric Malloy made Jan 9 at 2016 1:28 PM

2016-01-09T13:28:22-05:00

if you have the AFPT Badge i think Ht/WT should be over looked. if you don't have the badge and are over the Armys standards for hight and weight you should be placed on remedial pt to improve your pt Score. and if you don't pass your test them you have three tries to pass before chapter process start. if you don't want to put in 100% you don't need to be in the military

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 9 at 2016 10:28 PM

2016-01-09T22:28:16-05:00

I have seen SM's who got kicked out or passed over for promotion based on the height and weight "program", but in retrospect there has been SM's who crushed the Physical fitness test and were stellar soldiers but the ht/wt ruined their careers. I think the military needs to get rid of the current program and research a new one that works. I personally have had no issues due to my body type but I've had a soldier of mine who would've made a great NCO, he regularly scored 310+ on his pt test, but because he was Samoan ht/wt rules let a great soldier go.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2016 10:38 AM

2016-01-21T10:38:38-05:00

If you pass your APFT and don't look like a slob in uniform you should be good to go. All it takes are eye balls. No tape necessary. The key point here is PASS the APFT.

Response by Sgt Tammy Wallace made Feb 10 at 2016 12:37 PM

2016-02-10T12:37:49-05:00

yes, the height weight should be disregarded if the PT Score is high enough; as long as you don't look like 10 pounds of sugar in a 5 pound bag while in uniform.

Response by MSG Martin C. made Feb 10 at 2016 4:58 PM

2016-02-10T16:58:29-05:00

90% in each event should get rid off the tape test. The problem is that individuals can train for an APFT however may still be out of shape.
We need to keep our current APFT but simply add the combat fitness test like the USMC does, no need to re-Invent the wheel.
But you know how the Army does things they will form a committee at the pentagon and the Sergeanst Major Academy, proposals will be written and evaluated at the fitness school at FT Jackson. With the findings a new OIC and NCOIC will stablished to oversea te different implementations along with a couple GS and contracting positions to help out. By the time all these take place 2-3 years will pass by they will need to make some permanent positions for the guys that originally created the new program and eventually around year 6 you will see something rolled out just in time to begin looking for something new. Army red tape at its best, everything I just described was how PRT was developed, tested, shelved, and revived in a 10 year period.

Response by SPC James Dollins made Feb 24 at 2016 4:21 PM

2016-02-24T16:21:53-05:00

I totally agree w/ yours long as you pass the PT test. Most people who are 'out of shape' would most likely NOT be able to pass.

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Aug 17 at 2017 6:04 PM

2017-08-17T18:04:01-04:00

Agreed. After all, we are not robots

Response by SSgt Boyd Herrst made Aug 30 at 2017 11:28 AM

2017-08-30T11:28:18-04:00

I'm AF Retired and back when I was in at our permanent duty station we had a 1-1/2 mile run and measurements. It was later that some exercise were added. I could still do the exercise then if I had to if they'd of required them. Being in the AFSC (Air Force Specialty code) I was in I had to work harder to maintain my weight.. I did that by drinking a lot of water before mealtime.. and I wasn't as hungry at mealtime.. I did some work outs and of course consumed more water.. it had to go s'where.. The bks I resided at back then were not modified like those thst Airmen have now. Fortunate for me the Facility was only a couple doors down the hall. We had a SSGT. that also handled weigh-ins for the fat-guy/gal program.. He was incessed with catching s'one over-weight.. I would catch a minute or two free and throw some butcher paper on the big scale at the stores room and weighing in.. I'd be
15 lb under max for my weight and age..
That SSG would come through line at breakfast and inform me to tell my crew leader he needed me to weigh in at 0930.
and make sure I ate some breakfast.. yeah, sure truing to see how close to max I might be so he could send me over to
Get a diet counseling at the base clinic.
No way, Jose ! (Oh yes, that was his first name), Jose Herrera, SSG. USAF soon to be out if he didn't make TSG the next testing time..coming up.. He was froze for orders.. The AF didn't want to get him s'where then have to turn right around and discharge him because his 20 year mark had come up.. Then they had to find s'one to take his slot at the rank he is/was.
Another Airman whom I didn't see things eye to eye on about, reminded me later to make sure I eat a healthy breakfast.. I did : a qtr cup of breakfast cereal with a couple spoons of milk, no sugar(frosted oaties). A few pieces of banana .. a qtr cup of juice.. I went back and weighed on the scale at storeroom..
YES ! 20 lbs under max .. it was 3 medium city blocks (football field and a half?) To the Sqdn Orderly room.. So I jogged it.. Stopped by my room and left anything heavy .. changed into low quarters( boots too heavy), and dry clean fresh whites.. lightweight permanent pressed .. my others were soaked with perspiration.. and So I went over to weigh
In.. He was gone and wouldn't be back until after lunch. How utterly fantastic!
(I say that sarcastically) it seems he had to go to Wing/Base HQ to take some paperwork.. .. So the 1SG weighed me in
And wrote it down... then he asked why SSG Herrera was weighing me, it was not that time yet.. "maybe it was a random weigh in, 1SG". and I got off the scale and headed back to work.. 15 minutes later the Food Svc Super is calling and asking why I hadn't weighed in.. the Weight monitor SSG had called. I called SSG
Herera and told him that 1SG weighed me and also the Cmdr. Was right there when it happened and 1SG wrote it in the.book.
Have s great day and I hung up the phone.
I wasn't the only person he done that to.. there was a dozen others... that guy was going overboard.. there may have been some that were dangerously close and some that were on the program.. WAPS testing came and went .. I had got sent. TDY with a expeditionary group .. I never found out before that if he made TSG.. when I got back he was gone.. When I returned I asked about him and had he
Got the line number.. Nonody talked for s week about him.. then I seen Base newspaper: SSG Herera, a TSG. selectee
Had been found murdered and robbed in his hometown of Philadelphia, PA. Wow !
He had been selected but passed before He got to wear it.. The Base CMR. Made a
Judgement Call to Posthumously promote him to Technical Sergeant effective the 1st of the month, two days before he was murdered. They had taken him to Philly Navy Yard Hospital morgue.. They held him, performed autopsy.. he had been stabbed several times.. They prepared him and held him until a funeral home could retrieve.his remains. I was on Base Honor Guard at that time , A Air Guard Honor Guard team would be doing the ritual.. So with permission of my Honor Flight Chief and theirs I went to Philly to take part with that Honor Guard.. I stepped in and filled a slot on the pall bearers. The Air Force got me there and got me back to base.. Our Cmdr. Had no prob with that.. There were others there
From base that knew him.. Their cars were packed with people.. The driver told me to take my time after the duties were performed and the cemetary was right by the church.. So it was in one door and out a double side door to the Cemetary.. There was a school and a hall.. e'thing was right there.. So I paid my respects to the family and had some lunch.. then it was back to base.. Didn't have to return to work.. it was my scheduled day anyway.. they got a new monitor.. from
Base/Wing HQ.. a SGt. She wasn't as zealous as SSG. Herera, she had a line number for SSG.. when she put it it on she didn't put on Her monster mask, more officious but not mean about it.. she said
She could catch more flies with honey than by barking at them and riding them ..
Yes.. a little more sternness in her voice but she always had a smile. Just don't cross her !.. I never had that with her..
She liked partying with her fellow Airmen and NCOs and Officers.. she knew the boundary line and how far she could go..
and she guided us Airmen along that line
also.. My being on Base Honor Guard I'd
Got to go to some Military balls.. and gotten dances with some ladies.. of course many that were not exactly young fillies. One of the Sgts on another team
had asked why did that A1C from Charlie Flight get to go to the balls all time (6 while at McGuire.. but who's counting[obviously he was]). Well, he's been fortunate to have opportunity to go to the Class at the Rec center about the ettiquites of Military social affairs the base officer's wives held for anybody that wanted to go .. (I may of only been a A1C .. I had my sources around Base.. I take comments (gossip)with a grain of salt or more.. when s'one says it's 'gospel truth'
I wonder should I be more wary. I look at the source telling me and who told them..

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made Aug 30 at 2017 6:23 PM

2017-08-30T18:23:27-04:00

I would agree if it was a truly valid PT test. However, we have all seen where the grading is not done to the standards. We see "head bobs" counted for push ups, and sit ups where the legs are almost straight counted. Everyone is trying to help each other out. At Ft Riley, we had the "Old Bill" challenge, whereby another unit's NCOs came and gave the PT test and were supervised by one the Division senior NCOs to ensure they were holding everyone, no matter rank, to the exact standards. If the standards were truly being adhered to, then I would agree a 270 or above the Hgt/wgt gets pitched.

Response by LCpl Domingo Ariza made Aug 30 at 2017 9:09 PM

2017-08-30T21:09:31-04:00

Here is my thought, if you can ace a PFT then enough be said on the subject. I spent my whole USMC enlistment as a "fatbody" yet I could run rings around the perfect idea of what a Marine should look like. I had the Command Sargent Major tell me "you are the biggest Marine I have ever seen" to which I responded, and the best as well. The point is if you can hustle with the best of them then carry on

Response by SSG Jimmy Cernich made Aug 30 at 2017 10:52 PM

2017-08-30T22:52:13-04:00

I have always seen the height and weight system has a way to cut soldiers from service.I have personally seen some soldiers get the wave by or overlooked and some being harassed for it until they just gave up.I personally never had the problem but it is your duty has a soldier to stay in shape and meet pt requirements.I also know that their are soldiers who are just talented at what they do and some injury may limit their ability to do certain things.This statement was not intended to insult any soldier.It was just my thought.I know sometimes we just keep our thoughts to ourselves I just had to let this one out.I am a veteran and its been 10 yrs since I've been in service so I do not know how they do things now.God Bless stay healthy and in shape and one more thing keep your weapon clean and qualifying at the range is just has important than pt is.

Response by SFC Seth Watson made Aug 30 at 2017 11:40 PM

2017-08-30T23:40:38-04:00

tape test is garbage and so is the caliper test, if you want a real measurement conduct a water displacement and go from there.

Response by PFC Eric Parrish made Aug 31 at 2017 4:28 AM

2017-08-31T04:28:53-04:00

In the mid 80's it was not uncommon to have a weight waiver based on body fat percentage. I was 5' 10" 200lbs at 6% body fat and ran consistent 300 PFT and had a weight waiver. According to the scale of the day my weight was suppose to be about 170 max.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2017 1:11 AM

2017-09-01T01:11:06-04:00

I think the same standards that are applied to "critical" career fields to maintain manning (ex: medical) should be applicable to all service members. (If you have been to the clinic you can clearly see the standards are overlooked.) Seriously... I retired in 2015, I am 4'10 have never weighed over 80 lbs and considered "underweight". I never shirked my duties and always passed the PT Test. I also didn't really adhere to a fitness plan until I had no choice as a Basic Training Instructor (MTI). So, I get sent to the clinic for being grossly underweight and I score excellent on my PT. I got shamed even when I met the requirements. If you pass the actual test you have achieved the goal. Stop shaming those who meet/exceed the standard. Just saying...

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2017 3:35 AM

2017-09-01T03:35:10-04:00

The Marine Corps just implemented a revision to our height/weight policy along with revamped scoring requirements for our PFT/CFT. Basically, if you get 285 or higher out of 300 on BOTH the PFT and CFT, then you are exempt from taping if you are overweight. The catch is that it is also much harder to get a high score for the CFT, and we have to do more reps on the pullup/crunches portions of our PFT. Just got a 276 on the CFT yesterday when with the previous standard I would have had a 299. So I say, if you are physically fit enough, screw having to get taped because ultimitely, we need fit people out there on the battlefield; not someone who looks pretty but can barely run 3 miles in less than 28 minutes.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2017 3:40 AM

2017-09-01T03:40:33-04:00

Another thing is that the tape test is a primitive and outdated means of measuring body fat. You can get more accurate measurements with skinfold calipers, or, if our branches were to spend a bit more money short-term, there's some pretty neat tech out there that we could put in medical stations, which can measure not only body fat percentage accurately, but also things like hydration levels and muscle mass/bone density. Of course, I don't see us having those for another fifty years, knowing the Marine Corps.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2019 1:58 PM

2019-01-23T13:58:18-05:00

The ht\wt system is terrible. I'm 6'7" and have been taped my entire career. At 280lbs I'm muscular and have always passed tape, but its ridiculous I even get taped.

Response by LTC James Washington made Jan 23 at 2019 9:30 PM

2019-01-23T21:30:03-05:00

Go back to the % body fat measurement. It is a much more meaningful test. I always ran up against the chart. But even at 5# over max I ran 14-15% body fat. I was 9# unde Max when I ran my last marathon and electronically checked under 11%. The whole BMI thing is a scam. Oh and I had the high score adj in DivHQ at 51 - it was a max & about 280 on the 20 year old scale

Response by CPT William Jones made Jan 23 at 2019 10:57 PM

2019-01-23T22:57:15-05:00

Maybe the ratios need to be adjusted. But the test is two part either one may be failed. If your h to w ratio is good should that make a failing score on pt test be ok?

Response by SrA Kevin Piatek made Jan 24 at 2019 12:16 PM

2019-01-24T12:16:10-05:00

I know in the Air Force if that happens you get a BMI done I know people who intally failed but after the BMI got a perfect score

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 12:51 PM

2019-01-24T12:51:18-05:00

As a female with hips and big tits, I can confirm that the weigh and tape can be quite ridiculous. My boobs weighed enough that I have to be taped and my hips are wide enough that I almost didn't pass tape dispite having almost an 8pack and being relatively thin for having such a muscular body. Also my highest pt score was a 254. I'll admit my run was slow because I have a tear on my right mcl.

Response by SGT Nathan Vitartas made Jan 24 at 2019 1:32 PM

2019-01-24T13:32:39-05:00

I learned it's easier to boot someone for PT failure than busting height and weight. Logic being if you cant passed the PT your likely a far body anyways.

Response by SGT Phelan Hoover made Jan 24 at 2019 1:59 PM

2019-01-24T13:59:34-05:00

I was one of those soldiers, who can pass with a high PT score. Then was always borderline on my height/weight and tape.i preferred to be a little bigger becuase when I was a skinnier soldier. I couldn't keep up with the daily work load as much and was even more tired. Having a little more weight I had even more energy. The problem with this is alot of soldiers weren't able to take the responsibility of doing extra PT at the end of day. Then also other tasks the fell on the chain of command as fatty cakes. Wouldnt take responsibility for their actions. My buddy Chris as a aviation soldier was a fatty cake and because of that did extra PT. Went to Ranger school and passed becuase he took responsiblity for what the Army asked of him.

Response by Cpl Pablo Torres made Jan 24 at 2019 2:20 PM

2019-01-24T14:20:40-05:00

Muscle weighs more than fat, so yeah if you have a low badly fat index and score high on PFT then height /weight shouldn’t matter

Response by 1SG Tom H made Jan 24 at 2019 3:08 PM

2019-01-24T15:08:01-05:00

6ft 205 fit and yet get tapped smh.. silly evals ways say "epitome of what a soldier looks like"

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 4:10 PM

2019-01-24T16:10:07-05:00

I agree something should be done, but standards must be met. If you say they cannot pass the tape yet make 270 on the test. You would have to say the opposite also you failed the pt test but passed height and weight

Response by SSG Lance Wendling made Jan 24 at 2019 4:18 PM

2019-01-24T16:18:17-05:00

I feel your pain Sir, but surely you must understand two things:
uniform standards across the board and officer setting an example of discipline and excellence.

Response by MSgt Mike Horn made Jan 24 at 2019 7:06 PM

2019-01-24T19:06:59-05:00

There are people like me at 5 ft 8 165 nowhere near max weight, but if taped with a small neck show up at like 30 percent body fat. There should be a more accurate way. I'm retired now...so I can voice my opinion

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 7:16 PM

2019-01-24T19:16:37-05:00

The Marine Corps has already implemented something like that. If you score a 285 or above on BOTH our physical fitness test (PFT) AND combat fitness test (CFT) then you can have as much body fat as you want (still get taped but no negative if over the limit). If you score a 250 or above on both then you rate an extra body fat percentage.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 7:18 PM

2019-01-24T19:18:01-05:00

Height and weight is a joke. All that is is how you look like in uniform. If you look like a soldier than you are a soldier. I was always a big guy and could do my job without and problems

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 7:57 PM

2019-01-24T19:57:41-05:00

Its a great idea until you have a bad day and then your just overweight and chaptered.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 8:29 PM

2019-01-24T20:29:02-05:00

Nope. The Standard is the Standard. Period. No does the AR need to be reviewed and changed, maybe. But until then. Suck it up.

Response by SFC William Huse made Jan 24 at 2019 8:47 PM

2019-01-24T20:47:58-05:00

If you can pass the apft weight should not be an issue. Most of your overweight soldiers cannot pass, the test. Those are the ones that need to be taped.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 8:48 PM

2019-01-24T20:48:42-05:00

I body build and so for the last 7 years I have been taped. I max my pushups, situps often and have bench pressed 410lbs on decline bench. But according to Army weight standards I am over by 50 lbs. I always pass my tape. I do have a big neck. It ranges as high as 20.5 inches to 19.5 when I lose some weight. Personaly I feel if you can scire high on your PT test and do your job to hell with their master race program if having stick figure men in the military.

Response by SPC Steven Bergeron made Jan 24 at 2019 10:01 PM

2019-01-24T22:01:17-05:00

I’m 5’ 9.5” and was 197# and only 16% body fat. Failed height/weight every time. Glad my command understood the difference between a fat ass and someone who was weight training semi professionally.

Response by SGT Bj Anderson made Jan 24 at 2019 10:31 PM

2019-01-24T22:31:31-05:00

I am 5'9" and 220-230lbs. with a 29-30" waist. I am considered 35-45lbs overweight. My APFT has never been below a 260 and I have two years of over 300 + the extended scale because well when you are in country for 18 months what else do you have to do besides patrols and working out. I always thought it was ridiculous that I had to be taped and a note in every one of my APFT when turning it in for schools that required one.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 10:47 PM

2019-01-24T22:47:23-05:00

It’s funny I was getting taped at 185 and I maxed my pt test. I feel like if you max why tape

Response by SSG Pedro Tapia made Jan 24 at 2019 10:57 PM

2019-01-24T22:57:08-05:00

I kind of agree with the above statement. This is not about looks, it is about performance. I serve with another NCO that look like fridge, but max his PT test all the time and was a Ranger to boot. Not a go to school, get your tab ranger. He came from one the Battalions to our unit. A big difference. He look like a linebacker but move as quick as a wide receiver.

Response by PO1 Bill Adams made Jan 24 at 2019 11:34 PM

2019-01-24T23:34:04-05:00

Some soldiers or sailors weren’t built to Mil-spec. There should some flexibility in the system.

I had a friend denied re-enlistment in the 80s. He was a body builder, in great shape, but the tape measure specs at the time said he was over weight.

So out he went.

I hope things have changed.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2019 11:56 PM

2019-01-24T23:56:20-05:00

Funny this idea came from a cannon cocker... well not really, it’s only funny because it reminded me of one of my favorite gun bunnies.... I’ll just call him the Big Spin.... this cat was huge, I mean he was able to fit in his uniform, but he was a mountain of a man.... Long story short, this guy would max an APFT any time anywhere.... but had a hard time passing tape.... stupid sad.... the army was unable to retain such a good trippy cause well we cling to a flawed system

Response by LCpl Jay Thann made Jan 25 at 2019 1:54 AM

2019-01-25T01:54:34-05:00

when I was in the Marines, your height and weight is usually waived when you are a 1st and 2nd class PT stud and you appearances is not of a fat body. we go by fat percent with the pincher. Individuals may be super big through muscle size.

Response by 1SG Tom Conner made Jan 25 at 2019 3:06 AM

2019-01-25T03:06:38-05:00

I met a guest speaker at the National Security Agency. He was being honored as an example of dedication to duty in protecting classified information. On a helicopter mission in Vietnam, in retrieving Communications Security documents, he showed his disregard of his own life by refusing to leave any behind. Evidence was the number of enemy bayonet stabs he received. If he were within body height/weight standards, would he have been able to survive? The extra body mass protected his vitals organs. He was awarded the Medal of Honor.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2019 9:52 AM

2019-01-25T09:52:22-05:00

Welcome to the Air Force. Joke as much as you want, but the AF figured this out like 10 years ago. If you pass a PT test it doesnt matter how much you weigh as long as you present a proffesional appearence in uniform.

Response by MAJ Steve Daugherty made Jan 25 at 2019 9:59 AM

2019-01-25T09:59:02-05:00

The current system was initiated because a past president didn’t like to see fat soldiers

Response by CPT Dan Caudill made Jan 25 at 2019 11:16 AM

2019-01-25T11:16:01-05:00

Serving over 20 yrs I never once made the weight requirement. I always passed tape with flying colors and had about a 280 pt average. I think it's a great idea!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 25 at 2019 1:06 PM

2019-01-25T13:06:03-05:00

Sounds great except for the good ol boy system is still there, especially in guard and reserve. Not as prevalent, but still there. Otherwise a pretty good idea. I'll take a Soldier in my foxhole who is technically and tactically proficient who is 260 pounds and can score a 270 over someone who is 150 soaking wet and scores the same. Just make sure we get enough MRE's for the both of us.

Response by SPC Ryan Larsen made Jan 25 at 2019 1:08 PM

2019-01-25T13:08:36-05:00

I remember getting to my new unit at Lewis/Mchord. Right after taking a month of leave after leaving my base in Bamberg, Cermany, shortly after being deployed. I scored a 285 on my PT test. Higher than 95 percent of my platoon. Usually scored 300 without a problem but you know, a month of leave and all. My platoon sergeant congratulated me on my score, and then wrote me up for not passing my tape test. I am 6'2" and natuarly thick, but not fat. Pissed me off to no end. He was "moved to HQ" shortly after and my new platoon sergeant immediately removed me from the overweight list. He said he couldn't put one of his most fit soldiers on the overweight list and thought it ridiculous.

Response by PO1 Jeffrey Pennala made Jan 25 at 2019 1:54 PM

2019-01-25T13:54:16-05:00

This has always been a frustration for me, trying to mash everyone into a some kind of standardized system. We are not all made the same. Prior my entering the Navy I wrestled in college at 191lbs my height is 5'7" and never met the height weight chart. Even though I would max out the PT. I was supposed to weight 160lbs according to the chart, of course that wasn't going to happen. So out comes the tape and you can get several different % of body weight readings from each person doing the measurement. I looked good in uniform and was always first or second on the PT test in my division. Depending on who was holding the tape it was off to sick call to have my lack of body fat inspected by the doc so I could get a passing PT test score, STUPID. If I was 5'10" would never had been a problem, three stinkin' inches go figure. One size fits all does not really work, do not the officers have any discretion to forgo all the BS signatures and negative entries that turns an outstanding PT score to a "pass".

Response by SA Cheryl Saylor made Jan 25 at 2019 10:54 PM

2019-01-25T22:54:54-05:00

I totally agree especially with chicks like me I was Navy and I was 5'3 with a skinny neck and big boobs which is crap that your boobs count against you I was 1 lbs over but my scores were high

Response by CSM James Skellion made Jan 26 at 2019 9:20 AM

2019-01-26T09:20:56-05:00

I trained hard to MAX all my APFT for 30- years. As a Drill Instructor for 3-years and an E7/E8 First Sergeant for 9-years, I have seen every fitness/ shape/size of our Troops, many could make 270 or better and not meet ht/wt standards. I was constantly involved with special PT programs trying to keep good soldiers by helping them meet those standards. I support meeting a specific APFT verses ht/wt standard only!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2019 3:19 PM

2019-01-26T15:19:29-05:00

I used to agree with you till my SFC brought up a good point. Yes you have grown strong with your body and you crushed your pt test.... But if you go down someone needs to pick you up. That is why we have height and weight standards

Response by SGT Mike Adams made Jan 26 at 2019 11:11 PM

2019-01-26T23:11:26-05:00

1976 I went to basic in Ft Knox. I weighed 217 lbs. The drill sergeants stayed on my ass. Stood over my shoulder in the mess hall. I weighed 207 at graduations. I had always been pudgy and no bulging muscles. However I could do 60 push-ups and 100 sit-ups with no problem. In the 11th Cav I was on the fat boy program. I was able to do more reps of the foremention exercises. Plus I could do the two mile run in 13 minutes. I weighed 195 when I ETSed

Response by SGT Beth Day made Feb 23 at 2019 11:12 AM

2019-02-23T11:12:09-05:00

When I joined ... nigh on 40 years ago. Body fat percentage was only for men, not women. (It was added for us sometime in my first year I believe.) Anyway I was an intercollegiate swimmer (specializing in fly) and a powerlifter. I went thru all my interviews, spoke to several recruiters and no one mentioned weight. Then, right as they were filling out the final paperwork, I had to hop on the scale for the official height/weight. Three male jaws collectively dropped to the floor, not believing I could weigh what the scale said ... about 35 pounds more than they thought! They said no matter, I'd pass body fat percentage, but they would need to call to find out how to do it for a female. That's when they found out ... no. I had to crash off 35 pounds of muscle to get in. And, although I enjoyed my service, there were times I regretted it because I was never able to attain close to that fitness level again. And I had to tape EVERY TIME, even though I passed the PT test. That's humiliating. So, I'm definitely on the passing the test should be enough, ESPECIALLY, with the new one.

Response by SP5 Christopher Brock made Mar 27 at 2019 2:34 PM

2019-03-27T14:34:19-04:00

I was considered overweight by army standards and it absolutely sucks I use to run from my house in Baumholder Germany to my Company every day, barely eat every day always on a diet and had one of the highest APFT in the company just to always be flagged for weight, get rid of it or do what the Marines do and have Classes if you get a 1st class or 2nd class APFT you don’t get weighed or taped 3rd class you get weighed, taped and Flagged