Should NCOES go to a more strict curriculum such as closed book tests?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Jan 2014 18:32:49 -0500

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Jan 1 at 2014 6:47 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Wed, 01 Jan 2014 18:47:14 -0500

It's only a matter of time...they've already implemented closed book exams in the Sergeants Major Course.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2014 7:12 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Jan 2014 19:12:11 -0500

It depends if they are going to get the adequate time to study. NCOES schools are mainly student led which requires NCOs to perform even when off duty. Some example of this would be writing memos, practicing for the performance and technical test which require practice for the less seasoned NCO.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2014 7:54 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Jan 2014 19:54:51 -0500

I don't see why it would be such a problem. As NCOs we are supposed to be professional and a step above the rest so we should have the discipline to sit down and study for a test instead of just pressing 'ctrl f' on a pdf file.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2014 8:57 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jan 2014 20:57:49 -0500

Only after documented home unit training that allowed for the appropriate professional development....additionally, I believe we would have to find some kind of entrance exam for enrollment to prevent mass failures...our Army was not built on having to "know" all,but knowing where to find the answer....this is a crafty discussion....

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jan 2 at 2014 9:45 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 02 Jan 2014 21:45:06 -0500

Yes please!

Response by MSG Curtis Lange made Jan 3 at 2014 10:34 AM

MSG Curtis Lange — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 10:34:55 -0500

You should train as you fight. That means open book for NCOES. NCOs should not only be able to find answers in the service publications, but also use them as a teaching tool to younger service members. That means they know where to find the answer in regulations/publication and can explain the appliciability to a given situation.

So maybe the questions at NCOES should require citiation and interputation instead of multiple guess answers that are word-for-word out of a regulation.

That leads to the follow-on question, are the tests designed to facilitate the instructors quick grading or to find out what the student knows and can put into practice?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2014 11:05 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 11:05:09 -0500

For SLC and the SMA; I agree that closed books is the way to go. I am not saying we are all perfect, but, we should be able to research and find the material quicker. The younger NCOs, I am okay with them having open books.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2014 5:23 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 17:23:54 -0500

Lets look at it from a "professional" Soldier aspect. We are not supposed to be teaching in the NCOES. We are facilitating knowledge that the Soldier or NCO should already have. I see it as the biggest difference between promote then train against train then promote. I see the latter as having a bigger value. It pains me to have a Soldier come into a classroom and not know how to plot a grid or give PRT.

Response by MSG Michael Shannon made Jan 3 at 2014 7:52 PM

MSG Michael Shannon — Fri, 03 Jan 2014 19:52:21 -0500

I instructed WLC for 3 years from 2008 to 2011 and saw three
different CMP/POI while I was there. Note cards were authorized during performance evaluations (PE) and laptops were used to
take exams. It was almost impossible to
fail a Soldier who came through the course and was also a little discouraged. NOCA’s are given funding on the amount of
Soldiers who attend the course.
When an Academy starts to turn Soldiers away for failing then units will
not send their Soldiers there. Is this
the right answer, no, but it is the reality of the situation regarding how the
Army funds. I will say that with a
written exam we have to remember that we do not have to know everything as an
NCO off of the top of our heads. Life experience
and basic knowledge on where to find information is enough when attempting to
couch, counsel, and mentor a Soldiers.
Old FM 6-22 says Leadership is the process of influencing people by
providing purpose direction and motivation while operating to accomplish the
mission. The FM does not tell us how to
accomplish the mission or how to influence our Soldiers. All of
this being said I believe that an open book written exam is useful with a real
world application in research ability while note cards for a PE need to
go. As a good compromise my
recommendation is a closed book exam one what regulation discusses what. Someone who can research well usually has an
understanding of where to start looking.

Further in the discussion I read something about unit
mentorship prior to attending the course.
I have made Army Leadership a passion.
Development of Soldier has always been my main focus so on this note I
fully agree. Leaders at all levels need
to provide Soldiers with the proper tools to advance and lead in their absence. To accomplish this I developed a WLC preparation
/ leadership mentorship program. The WLC
preparation is made up of a few study sheets for the three modules that were
being taught before I left (Leadership, Training, and Warfighting). The Leadership Mentorship is a lot more
comprehensive. It has an SOP that
explains how to institute the program with a sample counseling and evaluation
form in appendixes A and B. When used
properly it can assist Platoon Sergeants in selecting which Soldiers should go
to school, prepare them for a leadership role and will allow Soldiers at the
Squad Leader level to assist in the evaluation process furthering there
leadership ability. I have an AKO Suite
that is open to the community full of leadership tools for everyone’s convenience. Log into AKO and search for The NCO
Room. The third option will bring you to
the suite page (Developed by Michael.b.shannon). If anyone of you are interested or need
assistance please do not hesitate to email me at [login to see]
or call my office at [login to see] .
Comments (constructive) are much appreciated.

I am proud to continue Soldiering with all of you.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2014 8:01 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 05 Jan 2014 20:01:47 -0500

I believe the same as many experienced NCO's. Open book is good because there is to much to remember. As long as the Soldier knows where to get the correct info. Regs, FMs, etc. Although I believe that Google should not be allowed only reference material.

Response by LTC Jason Bartlett made Jan 5 at 2014 8:57 PM

LTC Jason Bartlett — Sun, 05 Jan 2014 20:57:30 -0500

Absolutely...allowing the use of resource materials such as textbooks or notes, eliminates the legitimacy of evaluation. Open book test teach you to speed read and you don't retain the information.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Nov 10 at 2017 12:05 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Fri, 10 Nov 2017 12:05:17 -0500

I've used the Army and Air Force course development methodologies. They are similar. Tests are based on the course objectives, so objective writing determines the type of question and its content. If the objective says the student must demonstrate immediate recall of information, then a closed-book question is appropriate. If the objective says something like "using the aircraft technical order, compute takeoff distance given weather and runway condition rating data to an accuracy of +/- 500 feet" then an open-book question is the way to go.

The objectives also determine the content and type of question. A closed-book question must give the student adequate information to select the correct answer. Aberrant situations must be ruled out by the data presented leaving the student who has acquired the course information a logical path to the correct answer. For example, "Select the normal operation landing gear hydraulic pressure reading after engine start." Follow this with multiple-choice answers only one of which contains the correct pressure range. Open-book questions can be less restrictive in their wording and essay questions can be downright obtuse. For example an open-book question might be, "What is the smallest permissible drop zone size for a personnel air drop?" The answers might include accurate (correct) and inaccurate qualifiers and measurements such as, "400 yards by 800 yards except for airborne trainees which must be 600 yards by 1000 yards." And of course there's the essay question, "Explain your leadership philosophy as it relates to that of Colin Powel and "Chesty" Puller."

Arbitrarily making all tests closed-book to make the course more difficult can defeat the course objectives. Some students will throw the BS flag on closed-book questions that don't support "immediate recall" course objectives. In the end, instructors and course developers will spend too much time responding to disgruntled students forced to memorize information they know is reasonably available to them if they need it under nearly all circumstances they can imagine.