Should not being ABN, AASLT, etc qualified prevent you from going to promotion board or NCOES?

SGT Javier Silva — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 12:22:42 -0500

Just found out that there are units who require Soldiers to attend a ABN, AASLT, or similar schools in order to be recommended for a promotion board or to even attend a NCOES school. Should not being qualified in these courses, or any other course not required for your MOS, prevent you from doing so?

*Question Revised from Original*

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2013 12:54 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 12:54:49 -0500

I don't believe they should do that but not the first time I have heard of something like that

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Dec 18 at 2013 2:03 PM

LTC Yinon Weiss — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:03:24 -0500

I have no input to add on the promotion board, but just for the record, neither Airborne nor Air Assault are special operations courses.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Dec 18 at 2013 2:11 PM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:11:53 -0500

82nd, 101st, Special Mission BDES, most of which are volunteer assignments by the way, require one or more of these qualifications to be able to do the job you volunteered for. If you are not Airborne at 82nd, you will not get promoted because you fail to meet minimum requirements for a unit you volunteered for.<br><br>Now, if your unit is not authorized these slots, or adequate training opportunities (most of your non "special-operation" units have 2-3 spots available a year, which usually go to a promising LT or SGT), making that a requirement to promote would be inappropriate.<br><br>So, if you don't want to go to jump school, but still want to get promoted, don't volunteer for a unit on jump status. Plenty of "leg" units out there right now.<br>

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2013 2:40 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 14:40:49 -0500

In you are in an Airborne unit, then yes, there would be valid reason for requesting the SM earn his/her airborne wings prior to being selected for promotion.  As long as the reasoning why the SM is not ready to be promoted is annotated in counseling, shouldn't be a problem.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2013 3:06 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 15:06:31 -0500

Unless you are talking specifically about 75th. I have never seen a SGT non "tabbed" 11B/C in 75th. So is this the special operations capable unit you are speaking of?

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Dec 18 at 2013 3:08 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 15:08:59 -0500

<p>I think what you "heard" may be an exaggeration.  Just because you go to a course doesnt mean you will graduate.  Especially Ranger school.  I've been in the infantry and have never heard of this.  No CSM is going to simply make everyone go to Ranger school.  They only send those who they think have a chance of passing.  And most of them come back broke.</p><p>So lets say the soldier goes to whatever school and doesnt pass; so he'll never be promoted?  I dont think so.</p>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2013 3:22 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 15:22:15 -0500

I am in an Airborne unit and I have my wings, but in order to go to the promotion board for E-6 they strongly urge you to complete jump master. Otherwise you get frowned upon.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2013 3:30 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 15:30:46 -0500

There is at any given time at 101st ABN DIV 1000s of soldiers assigned and at home however the air assault school only graduates less than a 1000per year military wide so from that perspective I would say NO....  Going to a specialty school unrelated to your MOS but assigned to your installation should not be a requirement for board or promotion precedings it would be like syaing if you havent been deployed to a combat zone then should you be considered for promotion or if you dont have a associates degree or above you shoudl be looked over for a promotion slot....  NO ABN, AASLT, RANGER, PATHFINDER all schools that ARE REQ'D for specific Combat CMF's but not everyone can be eligible for a slot.  I went twice to the Sabluski school and failed the Cargo bag inspection so i sucked at it....  So just because the school is on your nstallation and your not qualified should not hinder your ability to board up to seek promotion within the ranks.  I have known many graduates for AASLTwho less than a year later could not tell you how to properly give Aviation signals to a pilot from the ground or rig a apparatus properly; for most but not all the school badges earned are just that another badge they don't use it for capability potential of their unit or themselves.  75% of Campbell Units are CSS (COMBAT SERVICE SUPPORT) but it is one of the largest installations in the Army and I encourage you to at least try to do the schools before giving up so quickly if that is the case for you.  To caveat to CW2 Evans blog if a middle or senior ranking NCO is unable to attend because of a physical profile should that hinder their career automatically for not being qualified>>>???

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2013 4:13 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 16:13:04 -0500

Some units 'STRONGLY' advise soldiers to attend certain courses but isnt a requirement unless you are in unique units such as USASOC & JSOC where being airborne is pretty much a given based off the nature of operations. As far as promotions and things of that nature, its biased. What if I was a 'leg' / NAP in the 82nd and couldnt go to airborne school because of an injury (non combat MOS)? So you mean to tell me that because of my injuries I will be held back from career progression because I cant go to jump school?

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Dec 18 at 2013 4:21 PM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 16:21:16 -0500

SGT,<div><br></div><div>   This is not an issue of right, wrong or makes sense. It is an issue of esprit de corp. You desire to be in a unit with a sense of heritage, as such, you honor that heritage or move on.</div><div>   The nature of those units is such that your supervisor will look at you, a SSG or SGT, who is not wearing the badge, and the SPC you supervise, who is, and you will be disregarded, regardless of your relative expertise, because he has honored the tradition when you have not.</div><div>   Besides, whether you are a 35 series, or a 25 series, you may need to be called on to perform a task. Civil engineers were rushed through Airborne insertion techniques for Panama because heavy construction equipment was on the airfield preventing a landing. A previously untrained volunteer jumped into the airfield to remove the equipment so the aircraft could land. As a 25, setting up a CP for the jump party, including satellite and digital coms to coordinate further actions in hostile territory. As a 35 series electronic signal intercept, to provide immediate threat warnings to the PL or CO.</div><div>If you don't want to jump, don't jump. If you don't want to be a Spartan, don't be a Spartan. This isn't rocket science... and an RP discussion isn't going to change the mind of the BDE CSM.</div>

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2013 4:35 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 16:35:30 -0500

Having only read your revised question, I'll give a qualified yes.  It would be reasonable given at least three factors.  The obvious ones being:  Mission, METL, and duty MOS.  Another consideration would be the availability of these courses to the candidate.  That is, if one were available, and it supported the units METL, yet the candidate declined the course, he's probably showing poor leadership.  But if such a course weren't available, that would be another consideration.<br>

Response by SSG Matthew Thomas made Dec 18 at 2013 4:43 PM

SSG Matthew Thomas — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 16:43:20 -0500

If in an Airborne unit your trooper asks for guidance about an Airborne operation or how to accomplish the tasks set forth to him within the operation, I ask how can you be an effective leader with no experience? I understand Resilience Training. Understanding your troopers and being there for them, But how can you effectively lead your troops out the door if you are unwilling to receive the same training? 

Response by 1SG Johnny Carter made Dec 18 at 2013 4:58 PM

1SG Johnny Carter — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 16:58:17 -0500

This question is a good one. Here is my answer. When a Soldier is being recommended for promotion are we not recommending based off POTENTIAL????? I think so and with that being said not having either school should not stop you from be recommended for promotion. NOW as Soldiers you should want to separate ourselves from our peers so to do that WE must take advantage of ALL schools and course set forth. When you are going to the Soldier or NCO of the Month boards those are deal breakers that will crush a Soldier. So as leaders we must push and push our Soldiers to the limit to be the best and ABOVE their PEERS. If you are in an ABN Unit then go ABN if your in am AASLT Unit then go to AASLT. These numbers actually are looked at hard by BIG Army.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2013 5:37 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Dec 2013 17:37:05 -0500

I failed to mention that service in parachute, not air assault, units is strictly voluntary.  A soldier can always
terminate jump status.  I've known one really good officer who did after he was a towed jumper.  No one held it against him.  So if you're in
an airborne unit and you don't want to go to airborne school, your
branch will reassign you.  BTW airborne school is pretty easy.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2013 8:06 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:06:55 -0500

If anyone is unsure of to find out how to progress their own careers a stepping block would be to look at ALM 2015 and the ARMY PROFESSION and ALM 2020....  Being informed on th efuture vision of what the ARMY wants versus what your direct leadership desires may play a part in all of our future existences while serving.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 19 at 2013 8:34 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:34:00 -0500

<p>I was reading through all responses below and got lost.  So I will just answer what I see is your current thread/question.  Some posts are required to fill a certain number of seats in certain courses.  Not sure if it is still this way but I remember the 101st used to strive for 80% of the division to be AASLT qualified.  When I was a young Soldier in the 101st, I signed in to reception and three days later was starting zero day at the Sabalauski AASLT course.  I was told if I did not graduate I would not leave the reception BN.  My BN CSM would not allow any "Green Tab" leader who was not an AASLT graduate.  Looking back now I realize those were just motivation techniques.  There's no way the reception BN could have held me there if I failed to complete the course.  HRC slotted me to a whole in the MTOE of a unit.  I remember a few senior leaders who did not have the coveted ASSLT badge and still served in their assigned positions. </p><p> </p><p>I think what you are hearing about are motivation techniques from a senior leader.  As for not allowing NCOES attendance, if this is truly happening, that senior leader will not be in position very long.  The US Army senior leadership is pushing hard to get our NCOES courses back on line.  Deployed Soldiers are being sent home to attend.  Now, if a Soldier has not completed the appropriate SSD and NCOES they WILL not be eligible for promotion to the next higher rank.  I find it hard to believe that any senior leader in our Army today would be able to demand such a standard.  </p>

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2013 12:39 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Dec 2013 00:39:15 -0500

I spent over two years in the 1-508th, 82nd ABN. If you were NAP (Non-Airborne Person) and you refused to go they would either kick u out of the unit or keep you from anything like schools. The only thing I could think is why would you go to this unit and not go to the school that is required. I have a brother out in 101st and if you don't pass Air Assault you are bound to get screwed as long as you are in the unit.

Response by SFC James Baber made Jan 11 at 2014 10:19 PM

SFC James Baber — Sat, 11 Jan 2014 22:19:23 -0500

<p>I think this is a good thread for those we are trying to get to join can see the substance of some things we discuss between us as current and former military, soft spoken as well as informational and mentoring types of postings.</p><p><br></p><p>We also have fun at times while remaining professional.</p>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 11:46 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Mar 2014 11:46:44 -0400

As it has been said in the other responses, if you volunteer to be stationed in a ABN or AASLT unit. You should attend these school so that way you full fill the requirements of the unit. Now if you can not attend these schools due to profile, training cycle, or not enough available slots this should not stop you from being recommended for promotion. Now being in a AASLT DIV I have seen first hand soldiers and NCO's not allowed to go to the promotion board because they didn't have wings. I believe that is wrong, wings or no wings this should not hinder a good soldier or NCO from progressing in there career. 

Response by SFC Derahn Thornton made Apr 21 at 2014 5:07 PM

SFC Derahn Thornton — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 17:07:07 -0400

Being a dirty nasty leg, I would say if you made that bed of being in a ABN/AASLT unit then lie in it! The units needs all to be certifird because that is its mission! However, a debilitating injury should be an excetion to the rule. If not, the soldier should be transferred to a leg unit!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 5:37 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 23 Nov 2014 17:37:16 -0500

With the draw down the Army is going to become more competitive. Soldiers should be striving to complete those schools and seperate themselves from their peers. These schools might be the difference when the Army wants to keep only the best.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2014 1:34 AM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 01:34:42 -0500

I don't believe this is fair to the member. It is quite possible to go from one light unit to a mech unit and back to a light unit and never have the chance to get to a school. And what of non-combat arms? They stand significantly lower chances of DA approving a school request than combat arms troops.

Bad idea. Way bad.

Response by MSG Robert Mills made Jan 11 at 2015 1:08 AM

MSG Robert Mills — Sun, 11 Jan 2015 01:08:46 -0500

Baaa haaa haaaa should have went to school Joe, but hey the Army needs LEGS too lol

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made May 22 at 2015 8:26 PM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Fri, 22 May 2015 20:26:46 -0400

Well....Yes, if you are in an AIRBORNE unit you should be AIRBORNE. If you are in an Air Assault unit, you should go to earn your Bullwinkle Badge. If you are in a unit that repairs nose cones, then Inflight Nosecone repair school may be for you....

All kidding aside, if those schools are required for your unit, OR if the slots are coded on the MTOE as AIRBORNE/AIR ASSAULT slots, then by all means you should go. There are some units that have both Paratroopers and Legs in the same platoons (My Wife was in one of those). The unit WANTED 100% Airborne Qualification, so they were ENCOURAGED to go to jump school. I never understood wearing a beret and jump boots without wings on your things, but then they gave everyone a beret....That is kinda like every kid at Special Olympics gets a trophy so they can feel good about themselves.....ahh....Now that my friends is the Army...The US Army, those wonderful people that gave you the Warrior Pass in Korea, the US Army , new and improved, the sweetest smelling Army in the World!

Response by SFC Mark Merino made May 22 at 2015 9:23 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Fri, 22 May 2015 21:23:42 -0400

Personally, I wish we had resources that made everyone in uniform airborne and air assault qualified. If I was a leader in a specialized unit and had someone state that they wanted to be in a leadership position in that very same specialized unit, I would not only insist that they went to the school first, but if they refused I would move them to make room for someone else. It's the military, and we do what is best for the success of the unit, not the individual.

Response by SFC Stephen Carden made May 23 at 2015 3:20 AM

SFC Stephen Carden — Sat, 23 May 2015 03:20:44 -0400

The total Army strength is about 496,000 as of this month. The total number of airborne coded slots across the Army as of 2012 dropped to about 49,000. That is less than 10% of the active force. I am not sure of the numbers, but as far as I know, the only "Air Assault" coded units are 3 BCTs in the 101st (please correct me if I am wrong). The requirement that a Soldier has a special skill qualification in order to get promoted is ludicrous.
These are considered special skills because not everyone in the Army has them. The Army standards for promotion set forth a lot of conditions (TIG, TIS, NCOES, etc.) but having a special skill is not one of them. That is why you get promotion points for them. Because they are out of the ordinary. Not everyone in the Army can be or needs to be "special". Why do you need to be airborne or air assault qualified if you work in a warehouse? If you are an air traffic controller? Some people will say "because we need to be able to get those people into the combat zone ASAP, and that may necessitate dropping them from aircraft." Bull. We haven't dropped troops on a mass scale into combat since WWII. There was one jump into Korea and one jump into Vietnam and one small jump into Panama. But wait! What about the guys who jumped into Iraq? I'm not even going to talk about that one. The bottom line is: airborne insertion is an outdated mode of inserting troops into a combat zone, and will most likely never be done again on a large scale. It is still a viable insertion method for small groups of special operations troops, but not for a division sized element. Before you scream in outrage, take a look at my photo to the left there. I am airborne qualified. I went to jump school in 1991 and did my last jump in 2013.
There are thousands of Soldiers who made it all the way to E-9 without being airborne or air assault qualified, including 5 of the last 10 Sergeants Major of the Army. The skill badges are really cool looking on your uniform, but they do not give you special powers or make you a superman. The schools do help develop leadership skills, but I have had my fair share of leaders who were bad AND airborne or air assault qualified (sometimes both). Let's not make these skill badges more important than they actually are. They are qualification badges, nothing more.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2015 6:44 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Aug 2015 18:44:56 -0400

No.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 9 at 2019 11:23 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sat, 09 Feb 2019 11:23:30 -0500

Based on the plain reading of your question, the idea of "requiring" someone to have a non-required school or skillset (per B&W Army Regulation) as a condition for "consideration for promotion" inserts Subjectivity (one man's opinion) into what is supposed to an Objective (defined in B&W) process.

Although it is great to say "We want all of our NCOs to be X qualified" that is not necessarily a Unit Level decision, and Leadership who are imposing their will on the process are acting in an Unjust manner.

This is no different than saying "I'm not sending any XX MOS to the promotion board" (you go through a specific school to get your MOS, just as you go through a specific school to get a qualification). If a 1SG or CSM said "We don't do boards for non-combat arms" he would quickly find himself removed from the position for unethical behavior.

There is a difference if said skill is required for the current billet (as in wings for an Airborne unit), but that would be exception not rule.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2019 12:11 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Feb 2019 12:11:18 -0500

Neither of those schools are identified as a requirement for promotion, nor for NCOES.
Army Directive 2017-28, signed Dec. 7, 2018.
Under the new policy, every Soldier in the “primary zone” for promotion, who is also “fully qualified” and meets Army standards for elevation to the next rank, is required to appear before a local promotion board.

“(This) is mandatory for all Soldiers upon initially reaching primary zone eligibility.
For a Regular Army or Army Reserve Soldier to be deemed “fully qualified,” they must, among other things, have a high school diploma or GED, have a passing score on their Army Physical Fitness Test, meet weight standards, and not be involved in the Army Substance Abuse Program as a result of a command referral.
MILPER Message 16-089, directs OML lists for NCOES attendance based on highest number of promotion points.
See, nothing about ABN, AASLT.
The Army mandated board attendance and specified how an OML was to be managed, because of the number of eligible SPC and SGT on promotion lists, versus those eligible.
Whether a Soldier is ABN or AASLT qualified and assigned to a position requiring that qualification isn't related to promotion or NCOES attendance, and if a unit requires it, that appears to be contrary to Army policy.
If someone is assigned to a position requiring a specific Additional Skill Qualification Identifier (ASI) or Skill Qualification Identifier (SQI) and fail to obtain it, they should be reassigned.
I did notice, according to Table 12-2, DA Pam 611-21, there are no positions with ASI 2B, Air Assault. Now, before all of the folks from 101st heads explode, I didn't write the DA Pam, I just cited it.
Having said all that, I served in the 82nd and understand the emphasis on NCOs meeting unit standards. If you volunteered for Abn, you were on the next thing smoking to Benning for jump school. If you failed, off to Corps upon return.
If you were an NCO, you would get the side eye if you weren't wearing a yellow or red arm band at manifest. If you don't know what the arm band represents, you just self identified as a leg.
Whether it is right, or wrong, isn't for me to say, as I'm retired. There are those who will argue that you can add to, but not take away from a regulation, but that generally lacks factual support.
My personal opinion: If you're an NCO in an AASLT unit, you should be AASLT qualified, and a Rappel Master.
If you're an NCO in an ABN unit, you should be ABN, and a Jumpmaster.
If you're an NCO in a leg unit, you should obtain whatever SQI and ASI apply to that unit.