Should O-1s really outrank Senior NCOs?

SGT Chris Hill — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 19:59:55 -0500

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 8:06 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 20:06:31 -0500

I can respect your frustration but truth be told officers like NCOs have to start somewhere. I can see how someone who has no experience seems less qualified next to someone with years of experience but you have to understand both the officer's role and the NCO's role in the relationship. Just because you are a brand new butter bar doesn't mean you don't have a brain or opinion. My years of experience afford me the luxury of offering advice that doesn't mean my advice or any NCOs advice is the best course of action. 

Response by SSG Christopher Peckham made Jan 26 at 2014 8:10 PM

SSG Christopher Peckham — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 20:10:31 -0500

I think that an LT should start off in a staff position and learn the behind the scenes part of the army and their job that way they know the do's and dont's of the army than they can go on and lead solders.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 8:20 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 20:20:16 -0500

Instances like that happen when you have weak NCOs and/or a weak CDR. As a PSG, I would never allow my PL to get involved in minor issues like lunch. Any company commander worth a damn would've put that LT in his place.

However, the level of responsibility that a PL holds is befitting his pay and standing as the senior person in the PLT. Most of the shit that officers go through is behind closed doors. I have never, and would never consider going to OCS because experience had shown me that the pay is NOT worth it. Would you volunteer to take over a 5-40 million dollar property book? Be answerable for 100% of everything your PLT does or does not do? Attend countless mind numbing meetings?

What that PL needs is a PSG that will show him where his place is. Be his guide and mentor. His right hand. I, as a PSG am responsible for any skull-dragging that takes place. We NCOs do the dirty work. I don't want his job and he will never have to do mine.

Response by LTC Jason Bartlett made Jan 26 at 2014 8:33 PM

LTC Jason Bartlett — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 20:33:23 -0500

<div style="text-align: left;">I don't know to many commanders that would allow a 2LT to pull rank on a 1SG (unless the 1SG was doing something illegal). In your example did the 2LT tell the SSG that they would work though lunch and the SSG blow him off? I guess the best reason I can give you is that the Army has been doing it this way for 238 years and it works.<span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Verdana, Arial, 'San Serif'; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254); "> Another reason "it is the law". Last reason the Army has our/your/SSG/1SG/CPT/GEN O </span><span style="text-align: left; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254); "><font color="#333333" face="Verdana, Arial, San Serif">experience </font></span><span style="text-align: left; background-color: rgb(254, 254, 254); "><font color="#333333" face="Verdana, Arial, San Serif">beat by over 200 years. So I think the Army has it right and that is why we are so successful. My advice would be to not think about the impossible but to think of a way to tactfully correct rogue 2LTs. </font></span></div><br>

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 8:44 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 20:44:40 -0500

Since I moved to the commissioned ranks from the Senior NCO ranks I can't help but share my disappointment with how often I hear SPC-SFC complain about officers. Is it so hard to accept that a commission from the President gives a certain level of authority? Why would an NCO, a Soldier who has enlisted under contract, be allowed to ignore a person who has been appointed, let me say that again, appointed to an office within the Army?  Just look at the two Oaths. Enlisted Soldiers are expected to obey orders of officers period. An officer takes an oath to do their job. "I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion. I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the OFFICE upon which I am about the enter. So Help me God" think about that. How can a 22 year old SGT compare themselves to a 22 year old 2LT? There is no comparison. You know how much my 17 years of enlisted service helped me to prepare to serve as a commissioned officer? Barely. I knew Army regs and basic stuff, but I had no appreciation for how hard LTs work. When is the last time you saw a LTC chew a SSG out? Now I will tell you an LT gets THIER butt chewed everyday by either a CPT or MAJ or LTC. It's a higher level of expectations. <div><br></div><div>You have to look at the big picture when make assumptions about LTs flying off the handle. When I was at a field exercise I had directed a SGT to ensure services where conducted on our DRASH trailers. The next morning when I asked him how the services went he said they didn't get done. I asked why and he told me that a SSG told him not to do it. I asked him since when does a SSG trump a 1LT, let alone the XO? I went and found the SSG and asked him why he contradicted my order. He said it was cold out and it was too dark. I calmed myself and calmly said "SSG what is one of the company's METL task?" He just shook his head. I said "To conduct maintenance services in a combat or field environment. I wanted these done because we are not trained or practiced at this task." His face turned white when he realized what he had done. So I feel your frustration SGT Hill. I hate it when someone who clearly has no idea what we are supposed to be doing trumps an order. But it is less acceptable when that person is outranked. But it happens in both worlds, the only difference is your not in the BCs office when the LT is getting lit up by the Boss. Just think about perspectives before you generalize. </div>

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 8:52 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 20:52:35 -0500

You're not going to like this, but this sounds like a "hurt feelings" report.<div><br></div><div>You've got apples and oranges going here.  The NCOs are in charge of the platoon, but that LT is responsible.  That's something different.  You cannot be responsible if you do not outrank the NCOs.  "No, sir, I was just 'shadowing' the NCOs...," how would that wash? </div><div><br></div><div>This is the same argument in the civilian world where line workers complain that their manager doesn't know how to do their job.  That's because the manager's job is completely different. </div><div><br></div><div>If you think the college degree is the big distinction, it sounds more like you are the one that lacks an understanding of the officer/NCO role, even in spite of your "years of experience."  Don't become the typical NCO that hates on officers because you imagine that they are just more senior NCOs that, in your estimation, don't deserve to be.  I promise you, it is a totally different job.<br></div><div><br></div><div>As far as the idea of giving LTs no responsibility until they are CPTs and then handing them a company, well, that has me smacking my forehead.  You might have headaches breaking in a new LT, but I have seen CPTs who manage to take over a company with no prior troop leading experience and it's bad (search "monkey with an AK" on YouTube to get a visual).  Things are set up the way that they are for a reason.  Generally, the system works; maybe not for this specific LT, but for most, and I bet in time, this LT will figure it out too.</div>

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 9:23 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 21:23:14 -0500

<p>While you do indeed bring up a good point, there is a flaw in your argument.  There is a difference between rank and authority, and respect.  The military in my expereince is the fairest in vetting potential leaders.  </p><p> </p><p>Going to college has nothing to do with experience.  But what is shows is an ability to comprehend information, the ability to have critical thinking skills.  A new LT has about as much knowledge as a PFC, but their responsilities are far much greater.  Just because you have a degree doesn't make you smarter than anyone else, but it does make you educated.  </p><p> </p><p>Rank is important in the military.   Officers are respobsible for what their subordinates do and fail to do.  They make a decision to  possibly kill somone, or spend money right off othe bat.  Privates dont have that authority.  </p><p> </p><p>You say a CPT should have all the authroity, but whats the difference between a LT and a CPT, about 36 months on active duty.  Thats not a long time. It takes more time to make SGT than CPT  There is a GIANT learning curve that has to take place, and the idea is take a young perspective manager, and let them manage.    </p><p> </p><p>I knew a brand new LT who made his platoon do pushups and chewed them out his first day.  That platoon was full of combat veterans just back from deployment. What sort of respect did that LT have from his men afterward?   Unfortunately expereince does not matter when it comes to rank.  When a new LT makes a public mistake, it is the job of the SFC or his NCO to pull him/her aside and guide that LT.  </p><p> </p><p>So in conclusion, so while the military gives alot of authority to a person with no real experience, the responsibility is great.  You have to start somewhere.  If they are a good LT, they will seek guidance and learn what it takes to become a good leader, and it is the senior NCO's job to guide them and the CPT's job to push his or her guidance and reign them back to reality.  </p>

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 9:30 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 21:30:26 -0500

SGT Hill, <div><br></div><div>It is unfortunate that you had such an experience. There are a lot of LT's that are inexperienced and wear their bars heavily. </div><div><br></div><div>However, I want to address one aspect of your complaint. Officers are not commissioned just because they have a degree. That is only one of the many qualifications. They also must meet other requirements, completed the requirements of their commissioning sources, and complete BOLC prior to ever seeing the operational Army. This is not to defend those who need a reality check in the scheme of things, but it is an effort to dispell that the myth that a degree is all it takes to earn a commission. </div>

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 9:34 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 21:34:16 -0500

This is not an attack to nobody. However, it is not because a degree that  a 2LT is in-charge. Their West Point, ROTC and OCS training is to give them the basic knowledge on how to run a platoon and learn the concept of military planning. Even a 2LT after graduating their initial training they are still learning and is the job of the Platoon Sergeant and CO to mentor that young Officer.<br><br>Now on your incident the most Senior NCO should have explain that LT that soldiers are require to eat and if there's no MRE then the soldier will have to get their lunch.<br><br>Don't bash the poor guy, mentor him and remember the PSG can make him or brake him down the road.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 9:55 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 21:55:29 -0500

Respectfully SGT(P) Chris H.  How do you expect a lieutenant to gain the experience, confidence, insight, and skills required to earn the respect needed to effectively lead combat troops deployed in a live fire zone from behind a desk?  We all depend on staff (and in my opinion far too many private contractors) to make it possible for command officers to focus on intelligence, planning, and effective engagement with enemy forces.<div><br></div><div>How is anyone tied to a desk (or even "shadowing" an NCO) going to be minimally proficient in both leadership and basic military skills (including navigation, stealth, tracking, infiltration and concealment, reconnaissance, evasion and survival, hand to hand combat, long range and subsonic marksmanship, use of artillery and air assets, foreign languages, intelligence materials gathering, interrogation, intelligence analysis, rotary and fixed wing aircraft operations, sensor systems and countermeasures, encrypted burst and frequency hopping networks, physical training, and demolition) to confidently plan and manage engagement by our combat troops?<div><div><br></div></div></div><div>Just like physicians must respect and learn from experienced nursing staff; command officers in training must respect and learn from experienced NCO's.  But, that doesn't mean that we should change the rules to eviscerate the authority of any command officers.</div><div><br></div>

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 10:26 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 22:26:36 -0500

I'll give an Air Force perspective.  My own.  I have mentored my LTs just as much as they have mentored me.  We all have something we can teach and learn.  The key is finding the balance.  Leadership is only a piece of the puzzle.  Followership is just as important.  Just know that mistakes are going to be made.  This can be expected.  We all started somewhere.  It's all about how we respond and learn from those mistakes.  It is our responsibility as NCOs to guide that LT and understand that there will be hiccups.  But they will learn, grow and become better leaders in the long run.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 11:11 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 23:11:17 -0500

Your PL is only a good as your PLT SGT. Your LT is not their just to lead but to learn from the enlisted corps on how to. I think the NCO's are failing the LT. For an SSG getting an ass chewing that's all that can happen and the final out come is his joes got to eat lunch. Honestly if a LT got lippie with a 1SG who has more TIS than the LT's been alive the CO who's not new to the game will set him straight.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2014 11:12 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jan 2014 23:12:00 -0500

I'm trying to find a way to address this issue. There are many factors which are unknown restricting any viable leader to provide a suitable answer for this question. For one, the personalities involved in the incident you described. Another that comes to mind is the "backbone" of the NCO being verbally counseled as well as the actual reasons behind the LT reprimanding him/her. But in short, I would say that things are right the way they are now and here's why. The jobs of the Officer and NCO are rather different. Yes, the LT does outrank everyone in his/her platoon but it all comes down to the NCO placed there to "hold their hands."

Yes, many (almost all) new Officers will come into a situation knowing absolutely nothing. Our job as an NCO is not only to train and lead soldiers but to train and lead that young LT so he/she can learn how to be an effective leader. We are the trainers. They come already packaged and wrapped with the book knowledge, it is us who they will receive the real world knowledge and experience. When they are doing something wrong, it is the NCO who should talk to them on the side and alert them that maybe this route is not the best possible avenue to take. Be an advisor. Be a trainer. That NCO is all that LT has to lean on when it comes to real world situations.

Now I've seen some LTs come in and completely take over a platoon and disregard everything that an NCO says. It happens. There are some pretty egotistical new Officers as well as some extremely submissive NCOs. There's no perfect recipe. If an LT feels the need to interfere in every waking moment in the job of the NCO, such as lunch, then something is clearly wrong and needs to be addressed. That NCO should have that talk with the LT (sidelined) and address these issues. I don't know what happened in that situation. Maybe the LT doesn't trust that SSG. Maybe he's a control freak. Either way, they have their own jobs to do and if they're bothering with something so small as lunch then who is doing their job? I will add that in my short nine years of military experience, I've never seen this happen when the section/platoon has a strong/effective/good NCOIC/Platoon Sergeant.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 3:32 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Jan 2014 15:32:54 -0500

SGT(P) Hill,<br><br>I cannot stress this enough, either you develop or continue to develop 2LTs or you should consider moving on to a different profession that does not involved 2LTs with less than 2 years of experience pulling rank on any NCO. <br><br>I have great LTs in my organization and the SGTs and above provide outstanding mentorship and guidance. Great NCOs know how to connect with Officers, it's called emotional intelligence. <br><br>Additionally, you have to be part of the solution, not the problem. Bottom line, I am a Senior Warrant Officer and I too must adhere to my LTs. If my 2LT decides to pull rank as you stated, then guess what--they have every right to do just that. However, if they pull rank for the wrong reasons, I will help him or her understand what they did wrong or ways to improve (behind closed doors) and if they don't see it from both point of views, then we drive on as a Team because no one is perfect.<br><br>**I hope you are not poisoning the Soldiers with this (which I highly doubt) because I would think you carry yourself in a professional manner daily. Soldiers will turn against an Officer in a heartbeat with an NCO who undermines authority and or disrespectful behind closed doors (without the 2LT being present) with his or her troops. <br><br>One last thing, if this bothers you so much, seek guidance from the PSG/1SG/CSM and they can help you understand your frustration/venting session. One or all of the aforementioned Senior NCOs would give you quality advice/mentorship on how to effectively cope with your irritation. I promise--they are seasoned Senior NCOs with many years of experience and knowledge!<br><br>Very Respectfully,<br>CW3 Jones<br>

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 4:10 PM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:10:16 -0500

<p>I dont want my LT to be weak and always ask how to do everything. I want my LT to show strength and confidence in her/him self. I think they should make educated decisions, taking in the skills and expierence of those around them. To appreciate the leadership skills of thier senior NCO's. Keep them out of staff....and anything higher than BTN environments. I think if anything the culture of thier training environment needs to change to show more appreciation and an need for thier nco support channels till they have some exp.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> As for my fellow ranked soldiers...watch your own bobber untill you have had the responsibility of someone else, please try not to judge them. Judging the the shoes of another with out walking in them just causes dissent and low morale.</p>

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 4:26 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:26:09 -0500

I don't want to come off as disrespectful but where in your vast experience gives you the knowledge to assume that the LT is a FNG and lacks experience so he shouldn't be giving orders. Sounds like you are lacking in your job. If he is new maybe he hasn't been taught. That's your role as a NCO. If the PSG is not going to due it then it's up to the other NCO's. He did nothing wrong from what I can tell. It is after all HIS platoon. What you fail to realize is that you was most likely groomed and prepared to be an NCO. The LT doesn't not have that option. He is expected to assume his office and lead troops and be accountable for all things with in his PLT. Soldiers on the enlisted side are groomed to be leaders. Officers are groomed to command. You said his degree was not worth anything in a way that was disrespectful. So it's his fault that he choose a degree and to become an officer. He has taken an oath and a responsibility far greater than yours and mine. Not to take away from ours. But the load he assumes six months in active duty is far greater and stressful than what yourself or I was doing six months in to our enlistment. So has he earned it yes. We as NCO owe him the right to lead and set examples for him to follow. That means teach, train, and mentor. What we don't do is go on social media and complain. Honestly if your are doing it here I am willing to bet you are doing it at the work site. The LT is set up for failure not by his doing but by yours by spreading contempt amongst the ranks. He does NOT have to prove anything to you. It's the NCO that have to prove their worth to him.

Response by SFC Stephen P. made Jan 27 at 2014 4:26 PM

SFC Stephen P. — Mon, 27 Jan 2014 16:26:50 -0500

"solely due to having a college degree"
SGT, I think you are critically deficient in your understanding of how the military works.

A degree at the time of enlistment only advances one as far a SPC. The education requirement for an officer appointment is a high school diploma.

Given this revelation, perhaps you should rethink the roles of enlisted and commissioned leaders.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2014 10:50 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Jan 2014 22:50:21 -0500

SGT Hill, I understand why at first sight it may not seem fair or make sense but, if you dig deeper than face value, it does make sense. First, officers don't just grab a degree and commission. Normally, training takes up several years. Second, officers are trained to manage, make sound judgments, and uphold the military standards. The skills that are required to manage a team of X amount of people and X amount of equipment in the civilian world does not differ much as compared to the military world (for the most part). The things that are different are the specifics, but officers are concerned about the "big picture" anyways. Officers are trained on the specifics but they are not expected to be subject matter experts. Getting a better grasp of the specifics comes with time and experience but they will never become the experts on specific things. Lastly, officers have the authority but also have the responsibility. Officers are ultimately held accountable for everything and anything the unit does or fails to do. I can almost guarantee you the LTs that forget or choose to ignore the relationship between the officer and NCO will result in that unit failing and that LT held responsible. Why? Because that LT was more concerned about being the boss or looking nice on the OER or anything else other than taking care of the soldiers. Notice, I said taking care, not being friendly or nice or always agreeing. If the officer manages, leads, and makes sound judgments that lead to the welfare of the soldiers, then I promise that you would not be feeling the same way you are feeling right now. I hope I'm making sense because I've typed all this on my phone. Anyways, don't let a bad egg cloud your perception of a true Army Officer.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2014 12:16 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 00:16:50 -0500

In my opinion, an LT does "out-rank" an NCO, but an NCO out-ranks an LT. A good LT will shut up and learn. There are many good LT's in my unit and they learn what they need to from the NCO's. Not to say that they can't do anything right, there are some that have a good grasp on leading well right out of school, but I don't think that they are all that plentiful.

I have, as a SPC, told many LT's that they had no idea what they were talking about, and then explained why I said that. At the end of the day, they are in charge and I do what they say, but they almost always let me explain my view and then they make a decision. That being said, if you have an NCO that is powerhungry and is an Asshole (pardon the expression) then an LT is likely not going to listen to him/her.

Just my $0.02

Response by CPO Rob Schrader made Jan 28 at 2014 7:36 AM

CPO Rob Schrader — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:36:41 -0500

I have served with LTs that were prior service and from the Academy. Many of them are weenies that only worry about one thing, their OER. I found that if you as the CPO work and show him leadership skills and to make a decisions based on known facts, they become better leaders and they will always look to the Chief for answers.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Jan 28 at 2014 7:57 AM

SGT Ben Keen — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 07:57:34 -0500

Is this really a question? I mean really?  An LT is a commissioned officer, charged by the POTUS to fulfill his/her mission.  You are a NCO, charged to be the backbone of the military.  Nothing is more important than the relationship between a LT and the NCOs.  As a NCO we are there to help groom the young butter bar into a well informed, standard-holding, posed-under-fire, leader.  After all, that young LT that you mention can become a BDR CDR or even a GO.  If you put your personal feelings in the way you are not just short changing the officer but all the soldiers and NCOs that LT will eventually work with.  

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jan 28 at 2014 8:12 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 08:12:38 -0500

Sergeant, I feel no need for me to out rank an LT. I speak to LT's with respect and authority. They know who is charge of my soldiers. I respect their position as I teach them so it mine.

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Jan 28 at 2014 9:48 AM

CMDCM Gene Treants — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 09:48:04 -0500

Sorry Sgt. but the reason O-1s exist is to produce great O-6s and above (Colonel/Captain).  They are Comissioned officers and carry all of the responsibility of command, not just the cute collar devices. They learn by experiance and it is up to their Chief Petty Officers and Non-Commisioned Officers (read that again -NON Commissioned) to ensure that they are trained correctly.  If we do not allow them the opportunity to make mistakes and correct them (in private) then they never learn the correct way to do things.  And if they are not smart enough to correct their troops in private, I am willing to bet that does not last long either.  Watch and learn Sgt. and as you gain more ecperiance your leaders will allow you to do more also, not just sit and watch.  By the way, do you like it when a senior enlisted leader takes over for you?  And what would you do if a PFC told you what to do?<div><br></div><div>In time of peace we do have the opportunity to train our junior officers and make them better leaders.  As a new Sgt. you will alos have a great deal of input in the care and training of the new 1st Lt.  College education does not make them leaders, it only proves that they have the ability to finish something.  A promotion to O-2 is automatic and does not prove anything either, but it is a first step if backed by strong recommendation from the NCO/CPO Community (and any good CO listens to his Enlisted Leaders, dosn't he?).</div><div><br></div><div>Look at the number of down votes you received and consider the fact that this might not be a very good idea.  Yes, Rally Point is a place for the exchange of ideas, but not all ideas seem to be acceptable to our community.</div>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2014 10:23 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:23:24 -0500

<p>My proposal would be....Are you serious, why change the way we do things after 200 some odd years.  Should a SPC outrank a SGT if he has more experience but in a job that doesn't promote as rapidly.  Should a 1SG outrank a CPT.  What about the LTs that go the OCS route and have more experience than a 4 year SGT(P).  </p><p> </p><p> </p>

Response by LTC Richard Becker made Jan 28 at 2014 3:12 PM

LTC Richard Becker — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 15:12:52 -0500

<p>The OP's description of the situation sounds to me like there was a communication issue between the SSG and the LT.  All of us have experienced a time when we expected something to happen a certain way, and one of our subordinate leaders executed the complete opposite.  Most of the time, in my experience, I did not clearly communicate my expectations to said leader.  Now that I am older and wiser, I have a few tools I can use to rectify the situation without flying off the handle, embarrassing my subordinate leader, or making myself look ignorant.  </p><p> </p><p>2 Points I would like to offer:</p><p> </p><p>One:  The OP's assessment that we should allow more experience to trump more rank is a dangerous road to go down.  Rank and position in the Army are based on level of responsibility, not level of experience or knowledge.</p><p> </p><p>Two: If we were to make experience a requirement of leadership, we would run out of leaders as fast as our current leadership is promoted or retired, as this policy would preclude us from growing leaders from the junior ranks.</p><p> </p><p>We all started somewhere, we became effective leaders by following the mentorship, instruction, and example of those great leaders before us.</p>

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2014 3:42 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Jan 2014 15:42:28 -0500

In the comments and responses below, someone said that they personally knew the NCOs in the above situation and they "do whatever it takes to take care of the Soldiers." My problem is that in all my years as an NCO, that was never my first priority. Part of the NCO Creed states "My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind; accomlishment of my mission, and the welfare of my Soldiers." They are in that order for a reason. Mission first.

The specific example from the thread OP said there was an instance of an LT chewing out a SSG over releasing Soldiers for lunch. If the mission was to complete those inventories, that SSG may have ultimately failed the mission because his initiative contradicted the LTs instruction. That LT is responsible for the mission failure and will answer for his incomplete inspections. (yes, I know i stretched this, but you only gave us a small peice of this story)

As a prior NCO, I will always take care of my Soldiers, but never to the detriment of the mission. As a Warrant Officer, I now have to answer for the decisions my NCOs make without my knowledge (both good and bad). An NCO, no matter how high they make it will always have an Officer appointed over them who is ultimately responsible for their sections success and failure. An Officer, regardless of how Jr. they are must outrank any NCO because while the NCO may be responsible for a failure, the Officer is accountable for the failure.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2014 1:56 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 31 Jan 2014 01:56:35 -0500

Is your LT aware of your feeling on the subject or happen to have a RallyPoint account? It might help to address it, tactfully, of course. If I am doing something wrong, I'd like to know so I can fix it.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2014 3:40 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 31 Jan 2014 03:40:19 -0500

SGT Hill,

I'm sorry you have had such a poor experience with new LT's. It's not just the completion of a college degree that grants the right for someone to wear the "butter bar". There are other aspects involved as well.

Believe me, as a former SSG, I have learned a lot about the other side of the military since my commissioning, and I have a lot more to learn.

You must separate it into two portions - to start: the planners and the doers. Officers and SR NCO's plan the missions per directives given by higher authority. The "doers" are the SSG and other JR grade NCO's and enlisted.

The Planners are typically your staff officers (XO, S-shops, etc.). At the platoon level, this is the first level an Officer typically has an opportunity to work with a group of Soldiers (I group all branches into one term for this discussion). The SRNCO's have been through the other ranks and give guidance to the officers in the planning process. It is very important that the JR grade Officers listen to the SRNCO's and work as a team in planning, evaluating and executing the mission.

The Doers are typically your staff sergeants and below... meaning the SSG works with their squad/team and provides guidance and oversight to those team members in accomplishing the mission.

Coming from an EM/NCO background, I had a real hard time separating myself from the execution portion of the business and helping plan the business. The difference is the "here and now" vs. the "what's on the horizon/what are the 2nd, 3rd and other tertiary levels of effect these actions will cause and affect". This is the difference often seen as "reality" vs. "echelons above reality".

If a company grade officer, O3, was the platoon leader for the typical unit, then where would the company commander come from? The Co CO is typically a Sr grade 1LT or a CPT. After about 4 years, an officer is becoming eligible to be a CPT. It is at this stage in the officer's career where they have command of a company for about 3 years and then start moving into Battalion staff positions before they get to O4.

I neither condone or condemn the actions of the LT you are talking about for a number of reasons. Was the SSG given the information and didn't follow it? Was there a timetable set that wasn't being met? Was there, were there,... too many questions. The point being, though, is that the 2LT/1LT still needs to have the opportunity to learn their management style and trait just as Enlisted are allowed to develop their management and skill set, just under a much shorter timeframe.

Officers go to college to learn a professional/technical set of skills. They are introduced to the "military" system of management, which is very structured and very time intensive. They have to learn to manage a large group of people in a very short amount of time. This is the weeding out process of an Officer. If their OER does not reflect improvement every year, if their OER does not state they are "One of the Best" or they are not "top blocked", they may be passed up for promotion. I'm not making excuses, just giving you the cold hard facts.

So, the next time a new LT lets go on an NCO like that, don't get a bad taste in your mouth about the new Officer. Just observe how much growth that new LT experiences in the next couple of years. Don't worry, other officers will talk to that LT and help them grow. The length of their career will be the determining factor on their ability and/or willingness to adjust, adapt and develop in a militarily professional way.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2014 9:06 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 31 Jan 2014 09:06:25 -0500

Communication. Up and down.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2014 9:10 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 31 Jan 2014 09:10:10 -0500

I think we've all been at this point in our career, "uh oh..new butterbar." We either outgrow it, or we'll find that our inexperience and lack of knowledge in regards to Officer-NCO relations will have us wondering why we hit our RCP's.

I've had great officers, I've had so-so officers, and I've had terrible officers. The same can be said for NCO's.

Even at the most frustrating times with newer officers as they're trying to fit into their roles, I've come to understand that they just need time and patience. No one expected you, when you were brand new to your job to be SMA material, and as much as you might've been corrected/scuffed, it was never because you were expected to already know and understand everything it was so you could learn.

Officers have a huge plate when it comes to responsibility, they're financially liable for a platoon's worth of equipment. In a Stryker Unit like mine with ball park figure of $3 mill for one Stryker (and there's 4 per platoon) that's 12 million dollars in just base vehicle price alone...throw in BII, a GP Medium, some .50 Cal Tripods, a Platoon's worth of Pro Masks, 2 Laptops, 30 compasses, etc...etc... and he's got alot of monetary pressure on him. Oh and by the way, if you screw up in a way that affects the mission or makes a big enough splash guess who gets to go talk to the big bosses...your LT.

I understand, you're here to express an opinion and vent. I think you should've done so in a far more professional manner than demeaning all new LT's as baby faced, just graduated, unknowing, inexperienced man children who need NCO's to baby sit them.

The best way to approach a new Lieutenant whom you feel may have stepped over the line into your side of the house: Politely ask him for a side bar, explain the situation and why it bothered you, let him to respond and work together to make your unit the best. At the end of the day, we're all on the same team and we need to work together as such.

Response by CSM Mike Maynard made Feb 1 at 2014 3:29 PM

CSM Mike Maynard — Sat, 01 Feb 2014 15:29:33 -0500

SGT Hill, as a former ROTC Instructor, I can tell you that it isn't the college degree that earns a cadet their commission.<div><br></div><div>Most spend 4 years in a program that starts them off as a Tm Member and semester by semester progresses them through Tm Ldr, Sqd Ldr, PSG, PL, 1SG, CDR and staff positions. They are taught and assessed on their leadership abilities as they conduct their training (think Sergeant's Time Training).</div><div><br></div><div>Additionally, they attend a leadership assessment at the end of their junior year. And even after graduating with their degree and being commissioned, their education/training is still not complete. They then must attend a basic officer leader course that provides them particular knowledge about their branch.</div><div><br></div><div>So, FNG? Nah, most of them probably have more time in a leadership position than you.</div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2014 4:19 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Feb 2014 16:19:28 -0500

It's the system that has been in place since this army was founded. Doesn't need to change. What needs to changed is the attitude that some brand new 2nd Lieutenants arrive at their unit with. It's his platoon to command but....he/she "should" be smart enough to realize they weren't taught EVERYTHING in ROTC/OCS/"Insert Commissioning Program and they didn't learn EVERYTHING in OBC. They are given Platoon Sergeants for a reason; to advise and assit. They should also be aware that the army (in this case) wasn't designed for them to make EVERY decision. They have NCOs for a reason. Another part of the problem is often they can't trust their junior NCOs because the Senior NCOs (SSG and above) don't teach Corporals and Sergeants how to make decisions and take responsibility. Same for some Platoon Sergeants not trusting their section leaders. A 2nd Lieutenant has no business chewing out a Staff Sergeant because he let some of the men go eat chow during a layout. As for a new Platoon Leader "ordering" a company First Sergeant. I've seen it attempted before. The end results weren't pretty.

Response by SFC Jim Neel made Feb 8 at 2014 4:11 PM

SFC Jim Neel — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 16:11:05 -0500

I wholeheartedly support the rank structure as it has stood for over two
centuries in the United States Army. As a senior medical NCO I always went to
my immediate officer supervisor, who at various points of my time as a
Sergeant First Class varied from LTs to LTCs, and made it clear that
however apprehensive they were about counseling an NCO with 18-24 years of service that I
wanted that meeting. Two things came from it, my supervisor's expectations of me, and mine of them, and how we can both work together for the success of the organization and the welfare of our subordinates. I really like the previous post by SFC James E. where he says I don't want their job and they WON'T have to do mine. The Officer/NCO relationship is a team. Mutual respect, mutual awareness of expectations, and understanding each other's duties is key. Sometimes it is the NCOs duty to train and educate their boss. If it is done professionally with dignity and respect it usually works to benefit both, the organization, and their Soldiers.

Just a couple of additional thoughts. The 2LT that chews the SSG out in front of their subordinates is not exercising military professionalism, and is in fact doing themselves a disservice, because that type of behavior diminishes authority, and hurts morale. Conversely, an officer or NCO that bad mouths their boss to their subordinates is not exercising the professionalism that they have been charged to uphold.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2014 6:25 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Feb 2014 18:25:27 -0500

New Lieutenants should not (and generally don't want to) be treated with kid gloves.  NCOs are responsible for their development.  The PL/PSG time and the Commander/1SG time is exceptionally valuable in their development towards being Commanders at the Battalion and higher levels.<br><br>At every Battalion and higher Change of Command that I have attended, each of those officers has cited a NCO that assisted in their development along the way.  <br><br>In short: Today's Platoon Sergeants have the first crack at squaring away the next generation of Soldiers' Battalion Commanders.  It is a task to be taken with the utmost seriousness.  Furthermore, it should be considered an honor to be entrusted with such an awesome responsibility.<br><br>

Response by COL Roxanne Arndt made Feb 9 at 2014 9:37 PM

COL Roxanne Arndt — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 21:37:14 -0500

I agree with what the SGT(P) says about brand new 2LT being given the authority to run a PLT and is still wet behind the ears so to speak. It doesn't say much about the 2LT if they don't maintain a close relationship with more experienced officers or enlisted. Many of them are on ego trips and haven't been trained properly. However, because we have a rank structure this is an opportunity for the NCO to help mentor the LT. If the LT fails to take recommendations or suggestions from the Enlisted ranks and it puts people in danger or compromises the mission then it's time to have a talk with whomever is in charge of the officer or the NCO chain, sometimes you have to go your chain to go down the other.

Response by SFC Grant Johnson made Feb 9 at 2014 10:39 PM

SFC Grant Johnson — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 22:39:54 -0500

No, I don't think a 2LT should be "outranked" by any enlisted service member, no matter how lacking in practical knowledge. What I would like to see is a reevaluation of how we create our Commissioned Officers. Right now it takes a 4 year degree, an application, and what is basically a crash course in "How to be in the Army". Some sink, some swim. Enlisted Soldiers can become Commissioned Officers, but still have to meet the degree requirement. I'd like to see a more direct path for enlisted troops to commission. Documented experience, recommendations, and a rigorous selection process in lieu of the 4 year degree. We could augment our junior officer corps with a lot of experience in that manner. But I also think that if such a path existed, promotions for those Soldiers should have a rank cap without a degree. Like MAJ, thus preventing those without the education from attaining Battalion command. I acknowledge that our senior leaders need to be scholars as well as warriors. On a related note, I seem to recall that back when I enlisted, you could commission without your degree completed, but couldn't make CPT without completing a Bachelors. <br>

Response by MSgt Pete King Jr. made Feb 10 at 2014 10:32 PM

MSgt Pete King Jr. — Mon, 10 Feb 2014 22:32:57 -0500

As a retired MSgt (E-7), I remember my CO (Colonel), calling me and our 2nd LT into his office and telling me and the LT what he expected from our relationship---I was to train the LT, the LT needed to listen and grow....It was as Simple as That. I've also worked for an SES and TWO Star, with that being said, I've Always respected the Chain of Command and my officers over me, but the SES and Two-Star expected me to be the Subject Matter Expert....Even when dealing with Captains, Majors, and LtCol's in certain situations...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2014 8:34 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Feb 2014 20:34:57 -0500

If you have a good PLT SGT and good 1SG that 2LT will value the NCO's. If you have crappy NCO's within that PLT or what not then he will learn who to trust, He will figure out who to listen to and not take advise from. As a SSG I was a Maintenance Team Chief(PLT SGT) I dealt with a lot of PLT LDR's who was 2nd for tank PLT's. Also my counter part was the company XO. Setting them straight so the CO and Battalion XO wasn't up their ass they took my word and didn't question me. The PLT SGT's I dealt with all SFC also did the same thing with them. They also treated me no different then the SFC PLT SGT's. Mainly cause I was on point as well as my Maintenance PLT.

1 Time a I had issue in a Battalion Maintenance meeting. The acting Company XO(2LT) didn't listen and the Batt. XO listened to him ramble BS about deadlined tanks. BAttalion XO turns to me and ask me the deal wth everything. I set things right and the Batt. XO ripped the 2nd LT up and down for not listening to me and BS'ing him. Afterwrds the 2nd LT was kissing my ass to get right. Lesson Learned. He later became a successful company XO. LOL

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2014 6:51 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 06:51:37 -0500

I can safely say that your position has not been well received. I worked almost exclusively with officers as a weather forecaster. I never considered an E-9 over the LT, but that he/she manages the enlisted people below.

Just make take here.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 8:22 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 08:22:38 -0500

There is the way the Army is supposed to work and the way the Army really works. Ex: on what planet does a 2nd LT really outrank a 1SG?

Young buck, you are showing your lack of experience here. If you have a problem with the LT your first stop should be ME the PSG.

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Mar 5 at 2014 4:50 PM

CSM Michael Poll — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 16:50:21 -0500

IT is good as it stands, they are officers. They outrank us, this should and I hope never changes.  The reason they are placed with NCO's is for mentorship.  No matter what happens, that PL is responsible for the Platoon.  A good NCO will mentor and assist that young Officer to become a great leader.  It is the NCO that belittles Officer that make OFficers that dispise the enlisted. 

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 12:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Mar 2014 12:18:07 -0400

Cadets outrank NCO's technically.. just saying.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 2:59 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:59:39 -0400

<font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

</font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Calibri">Alright battles don’t bash me, lol. However I do agree that
we as NCO's have to realize that under oath we swore to respect and follow the
orders from Officers. Are there times when new to the Army Lieutenants get
carried away and attempt to make demands which make no sense to us? It is our
responsibility as Non Commissioned Officers to assist in the training process
and help them become the best Officers they can be. With that being said
Officers should be taught and understand that it is in their best interest to
show us the respect that we have earned and the experience we posses. At the
end of the day we are all Leaders and Professionals!</font></p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

</font>

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 1:18 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 13:18:56 -0400

Receiving mentorship from NCOs is an integral part of continuing officer professional development, regardless of rank. If that brand new 2LT fails to appreciate the experience their Platoon SGT or Section NCOIC brings to the table, that NCO should approach the 2LT off-line in a professional and tactful manner. More often than not, that newly commissioned officer will recognize their mistake and thank the NCO for helping them correct it. This is how inexperienced Platoon Leaders are shaped into effective future Company Commanders. When leaders openly disagree with each other in front of their Soldiers, it creates negative behaviors such as resentment and insubordination within the ranks, all reducing the unit's mission readiness. Challenging the rank structure because of a few toxic or inexperienced leaders is the wrong answer. Let's challenge each other to improve and continually better ourselves as Leaders.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 3:52 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 15:52:11 -0400

I don't mind them outranking me, but if they don't listen and respect their NCOs, they're gonna have a bad time usually

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 2:45 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 14:45:15 -0400

SGT Hill,

Great question! Consider rank vs. influence. An LT outranks a CSM, but a Battalion Commander may not even know all of the LTs in his formation, but talks to the CSM several times each day. The LT is a COL in training and the SGT is a CSM in training. I think it is good as it stands.

Response by CPT Mike Sims made Mar 31 at 2014 6:38 PM

CPT Mike Sims — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 18:38:30 -0400

This is a good topic for discussion. You have two groups of Commissioned Officers as Second Lieutenants... former Enlisted = "Mustangs" (like myself) and non-former Enlisted. That said, some newly commissioned officers require a greater learning curve. The Navy probably does this best with its Limited Duty Officer program and how Ensigns are "integrated" into the service.

The Army spends a lot of time and money preparing Cadets and OCS candidates to become officers... there is Advanced Camp for Cadets - which is basically 5 weeks of a mixed boot camp / leadership course designed to teach Cadets to serve as leaders at the squad and platoon level. Now there is also a Basic Officer Leadership Course that newly commissioned officers complete before they arrive to their units, and they still have to complete their Officer Basic Course for their assigned or detail branch after completing BOLC... so, most are only Second Lieutenants for approximately 6-8 months before being promoted to First Lieutenant.

Now, I would have Battalion Commanders or others at the 0-5 level sit down with the new Second Lieutenants upon arriving to the unit along with the Command Sergeant Major and other Sergeants Major to make them aware of what the expected standard of conduct is ... which includes Praise in Public - Admonish in Private... Always - and only raising your voice in public in an emergency / threatening situation. Maintaining your composure, bearing, and professionalism - and being the calm in a storm, and not overreacting to small and stupid stuff is so important when starting out as a new Second Lieutenant.

Mentoring and coaching from other Sergeants, Sergeants First Class, Master Sergeants, First Sergeants, Sergeants Major and Command Sergeants Major for Second Lieutenants, First Lieutenants and Captains is just as important as receiving coaching from Majors, Lieutenant Colonels, Colonels, and Generals. I remember I once had a Colonel pull me to the side and ask me "Mike... why are you not hanging out with your peers more often... (he meant other Captains, Majors and other senior ranking officers) and I said - sir, I am hanging out with my peers, who were NCOs and Warrant Officers... the guys that actually make things happen". I wasn't trying to be derogatory, but the Colonel didn't know my background, and I believed in maintaining rapport with the troops - because in a firefight, it isn't a Colonel I am looking for to help me in a situation, I am looking for the Sergeant carrying the SAW or M249 or M203 to lay down suppressive fire. He understood after I clarified my comment with the qualifying statement and told me that's the difference between a field leader and a garrison leader.

Hope this helps answer the question, and I am certain there are quite a few people on here who may have a better answer. In the end though, let us remember that we are not training new Lieutenants - we are raising future Colonels, Generals and battlefield commanders.

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 31 at 2014 7:05 PM

CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:05:02 -0400

Having been in your shoes as the young SGT with all the answers, I empathize with your frustration. Remember however that an officer has a battle-buddy at all levels of the military, and that relationship is just as important for the officer as it is the NCO. While that young 2LT needs to be taught how to interact, so too should you be learning the best way to guide a difficult officer because one day you may be the 1SG advocating for your soldiers to a difficult CO. Learning to navigate the ranks as they are is the art of this career and the NCOs that do it well deserve the most respect.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2014 1:06 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 02 Apr 2014 13:06:40 -0400

<p>I usally tell new louies "02 ,E2 same thing, you dont know anything."  I then explain the 7 to 2 rule. "I'm a 7 your a 2, Dont talk, follow me, and take notes.  If you dont know the answer, dont say anything and ask me."</p><p>However, I understand where your coming from, and wait till you make PSG.  It is very hard to technically have to step aside. You start as a PVT, work your way up to Team Leader, then Squad leader, then you get selected to stand in front of the platoon as the "Platoon Daddy" after 11 yrs of hard  work just to technically be pushed aside as second in command to some "green" butter bar 10 yrs younger?  WTF Over!  But you also have to keep in mind..you are preparing for possibly a 1SG spot and you are preparing the LT to be a CO.  You are the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the PL, you are his mentor, his teacher.  You will be doing the same as a 1SG to a CO.  It takes a bit of adjustment, especially if your an Alpha type, like myself.</p>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2014 12:56 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 00:56:35 -0400

One thing is said about up and down counseling, especially with junior LT's. Training is key and if your a true professional about how you conduct your platoon this type of stuff doesn't happen. Grow them develop them then kick them in the ass as the go on and do better things with the proper mentorship.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2014 3:54 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Jun 2014 15:54:45 -0400

Sure...I'l jump on this moving train. First, the LT is responsible for the PLT and makes the decisions. The NCO's execute those decisions. That's at the basic level if you have a borderline disfunctional PLT. If either the PL or the PS are a) Douche-copters, b) incompetent, or c) a combination of the two, then it's going to get worse than that and you have the situation described a couple of times in here. Each has a role. This blends into a couple other threads like "How does a 2LT counsel a SFC?" Kind of like hugging a porcupine...very carefully. It's a team. The moment you sideline the LT, it doesn't work anymore. Obviously you've had some bad apples along the way. The end state for you if you keep this attitude will be as a SFC in charge of a platoon where you try and sideline your LT. I had one of those kinds of platoon sergeants in my Squadron. He isn't in my squadron any longer, because he's an arrogant, self-righteous, officer hating, douche-copter (see item "c", above), and he's done after the NCOER he received. He failed to realize the most important job a platoon sergeant has AFTER taking care of his Soldiers...building the future officers of America's Army. The newest LT will always outrank the most senior NCO in the Army. A good LT will realize that challenging a senior NCO isn't good business unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, and a good SFC-CSM will realize that their role is to shape them, not belittle them or try and sideline them...because they will become the BN CDR's of the future and they will have to live with their product.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jun 19 at 2014 10:04 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Thu, 19 Jun 2014 22:04:06 -0400

Officers are management, NCOs are supervisors. Officers are mentored by more senior officers on how to manage but taught by their NCOs how to deal with subordinates and interact with their supervisors. Same way it works in the civilian world

Response by SGT John T. Atkins made Jun 20 at 2014 11:19 AM

SGT John T. Atkins — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 11:19:00 -0400

To be honest I think the whole enlisted/officer separation is antiquated. I would have all service men and women start as enlisted and work towards OCS. You already get a bump in rank for college on the enlisted side.

Response by SSG Genaro Negrete made Jun 20 at 2014 11:45 AM

SSG Genaro Negrete — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 11:45:25 -0400

Wow, that is the most down votes I've ever seen on this site.

That being said, I understand where you're coming from. The system we have for training junior officers seems unique. We take a soldier that has gone to college and completed the corporations junior management training program (ROTC, service academy, etc) and pair him/her with a middle management employee (SSG(P) or SFC) and expect that employee to shape and mold the officer in their formative years (first 2-3 years out of BOLC).

On the surface, it seems like a huge problem. I look at it in terms of what is expected of the officer vs. a new private. The train up varies on the duration and emphasis on leadership roles. When a new private arrives at the unit, everything is laid out by his/her team leader. When and how to wear uniforms, where to be for formation, how to perform a task, and so on. The list is endless. But all the private is expected to do is learn. To be a sponge and soak it all up.

A lieutenant is expected to do the same while also being responsible for the platoon as a commissioned officer. Everything the element does and fails to do, right? In your example of a lieutenant yelling at a SSG for sending soldiers to go eat, that is a perfect time to mold that young officer. I am inclined to believe that any tactful response about the importance of looking after young soldiers beyond "getting the mission done" would have been endorsed and even reciprocated by not only the platoon sergeant, but the company and battalion commander. It's tough to hold your tongue in the face of such absurdity, but it is what is required of us. The first one to let an interaction like that become emotional has lost momentum necessary to get his point across.

I'm not a huge fan of working with officers. Not that I hold anything against them, I just prefer to work directly with the soldiers, where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. The officer job tends to involve more planning than executing.

What I prefer about Lieutenants is that, for the most part, they haven't developed bad habits about soldiering or leadership. This is my opportunity, as an NCO, to shape some part of that officer. I do that based on my experiences and training in hopes that when that lieutenant becomes a captain or major, they can remember the work NCO's put in day to day. Hopefully it can, in any small part, help make them better leaders because of it.

Response by MSG Martin C. made Jun 20 at 2014 1:41 PM

MSG Martin C. — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 13:41:54 -0400

I really don't understand the fascination with this topic. We are NCOs our guidelines are define in AR600-20 and without giving you the full verbiage it's pretty simple we are trainers enforcers of regulations and discipline. We cannot confuse our role with what the officers do the problem with most NCOs that feel overpower by their LT or CPTs it's because NCOs have lost the trust of their superiors. If you become educated and a SME of your craft the officer will stay out if your lane and let you do what you do, however that officer has a huge responsibility on his shoulders and there is no such thing as NCO business when it comes to Command they are solely responsible for what happened to their PLT and Company. So what I would say it's talk to your LT and define the roles have a clear vision of the commanders intent not your intent and it's your job to execute that. I have never had a single issue with my LTs when I was PSG because I knew my role and I knew his and I support it him trough out his tenure. Remember as a SFC/ PSG our role it's to be "the key assistant and advisor to the PLT leader" did you notice how it says assistant and advisor so do just that trust me most of these junior officers have incredible pressure from their Captains and staff officers as it is the last thing they need it's a stubborn PSG. That is my opinion at least and I have never had an issue but actually I have very good memories of my time with my LTs.

Response by SSG Ed Mikus made Jun 20 at 2014 5:18 PM

SSG Ed Mikus — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 17:18:56 -0400

I think it should stay as is, it is very important for young officers to learn that rank isnt everything and they cannot know everything. it is the NCOs job to show them that NCOs are reliable and will ensure success.

it is not that the NCO should out rank the LT but that the NCO needs to show the LT their place in the chain of command, a place that most all LTs are shown in school, but like many of us, must learn the hard way.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2014 8:24 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Jun 2014 20:24:09 -0400

I think this is unbecoming an NCO and the NCO corps. I was enlisted and obeyed the officers appointed over you. I would Challenge any NCO to become an officer to see what we do. We are big picture. We plan out months in advance and enable NCOs to do their job. That is what we are there for. We don't serve in the same role as enlisted and are required to think in a different fashion.

I for one can't stand an NCO that complains about LT's. I will stand up and ensure that that NCO understand his role in the scheme of things. It seems to be that a lot of younger soldiers think they have the Army figured out and can do what others do.

If that officer was yelling at an NCO in front of soldiers he is in the wrong. But 2LT is the most disparaged rank in the army. Officers are usually in some sort of training for about a year or so in many cases even before they assume any role of leadership. For infantry officers they spend 4 months at OCS, 4 months IBOLC, 2-3 months at Ranger, and a couple more at what ever schools they need in addition. This doesn't even include what civilian education they have.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2014 11:05 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 11:05:56 -0400

Taking the high road Part Deux?

I don't think that removing the initial subject will keep people from posting on therefor continuing the topic. If anything my curiosity was called into question at another deleted subject.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2014 11:15 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 11:15:18 -0400

I'm sorry to see this deleted. But more than that, I am disappointed by the down votes on the question. Can we agree this was an excellent learning opportunity? This is a COMMON point of view in the enlisted ranks and I applaud SGT Hill for being brave enough to post about his thoughts. I am giving him an "Up" vote now, which I should have done when I originally responded (I forget to vote up the questions sometimes!)

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2014 8:22 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Oct 2014 08:22:48 -0400

SGT Hill. No. If they did, we'd call them Warrant Officers.

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Oct 21 at 2014 11:43 AM

Cpl Ray Fernandez — Tue, 21 Oct 2014 11:43:50 -0400

Experience matters, a 2LT has the rank but still needs the guidance that comes from well over a decade of experience that a First Sergeant or Sergeant Major can provide. The Senior enlisted will help develop and train that officer to lead for the rest of their career.

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Oct 21 at 2014 4:12 PM

SPC James Mcneil — Tue, 21 Oct 2014 16:12:30 -0400

The concept of outranking is one thing. The idea of giving respect is another. A smart 2LT would realize that the senior NCO has a wealth of information and experience. A smart 2LT would know that even though he technically outranks a senior NCO, the senior NCO is the leader by default.
Why is this? Because leadership is all about influence. While the 2LT has the positional leadership (leadership by title), the senior NCO has the real leadership because he/she is the one people will turn to first. If you want to know who the leader is in a situation, find the one that people turn to for answers, guidance, and inspiration.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2014 4:40 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Oct 2014 16:40:25 -0400

It was just a question. lol wow, really?

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2014 6:47 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Oct 2014 18:47:39 -0400

I think everyone has said what I will echo to some form. The big thing that comes with those gold bars is more responsibility than authority. Obviously authority comes with it, but at the end of the day it is the officer in charge for conduct and affairs of the unit. There are some people who have no business commanding a unit. There are officers who are great at staff duty but suck at leading.

One of things people don't see that someone mentioned is the closed door meetings. I am not sure if they teach this in the Army, but I learned that my job as an officer was to give recognition when things went well and to take the blame when things didn't.

A good officer will always understand that the NCO under them is more crucial to getting the mission done than they are. However the officer is the one to be called to the carpet first when things go wrong. As an officer I would be reamed the hell out if my answer was well Sgt X didn't prepare the unit properly.

I have been in this position where some things got screwed up. We would have staff meetings with the commander where he would kick the NCO's out and we would have a mentoring session with officer staff if you want call it that. It was more of more of a you guys aint doing your damn jobs speech.

There have been times when things went wrong that I was not directly in charge of a specific function. I was the one who had to answer for them regardless if I oversaw the functions.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Dec 24 at 2014 3:54 AM

1SG Michael Blount — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 03:54:57 -0500

In the real world, with a strong NCO Corps, a 2LT should already know he outranks his SNCOs, but is silly to ignore their advice. I wonder if the outcome for Custer would have been different had he listened to his CSM.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Dec 24 at 2014 10:13 AM

Capt Richard I P. — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 10:13:29 -0500

Questions like this are the biggest draw back to Rally Point.

Response by Sgt Jason West made Dec 24 at 2014 11:19 AM

Sgt Jason West — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 11:19:16 -0500

Couldn't help myself...

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Dec 24 at 2014 12:35 PM

LTC Stephen C. — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 12:35:51 -0500

SGT Chris Hill, people here have already provided very articulate responses and for me to try and improve upon them would be foolish. The fact is, second lieutenants outrank all non-commissioned officers and that's not going to change. I won't down vote you because you already have 32.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2014 2:12 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 14:12:03 -0500

When I see an O-1 lock up an E-9 without receiving any repercussions I will agree they should outrank senior NCOs. Until then I have no choice but to admit the rank structure does not reflect reality.

Response by SSG Peter Muse made Dec 25 at 2014 9:38 AM

SSG Peter Muse — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 09:38:51 -0500

Yes they should and they always will. We all need to understand our roles and that a huge amount of respect comes with years of service, maturity, trust and ability. These philosophies have changed through the years and when the officer corps had less faith in the NCO corps, much was needed to restore that. Hopefully this generation is enjoying the benefits from that hard work. In my last few years on AD I could see that the younger officers had much more faith in NCOs then they did when I first came in. There were still quite a few senior officers who grew up as young 0-1s with NCOs who weren't great and now they were at Bde/Bn or EaB levels, they were passing on some stinking thinking and even though they had some great CSMs , they didn't always trust them. My last Plt Leader was that way and he did not trust any of us NCOs to get the job done even though all the evidence proved otherwise. We tried very hard to prove to him but at some point it was pointless and we sent him back to civilian life. It was then that I learned that the NCO absolutely had control over the destiny of young 01s-03s because they will not rate above center mass without NCO support. Just my opinion but 1 middle of the road OER when it's one of 5 you have ever had has much more damaging affect then when the 01 gives a middle of the road NCOER to a seasoned NCO who has 10-15 stellar reports in their file. Long answer to say they belong above NCOs and NCOs job is to train them to stay there.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Dec 28 at 2014 11:39 AM

SGT Jim Z. — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 11:39:25 -0500

I have not read all the response but ask you when question if an O-1 were outranked by a Senior NCO when would that change i.e. when does an officer outrank an Senior NCO. What is a definition of Senior NCO i.e. E-7 and above or just E-8 and E-9s. This is not a valid argument for good order and discipline in the military.

Response by MSgt Charles Johnson made Dec 28 at 2014 1:39 PM

MSgt Charles Johnson — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 13:39:48 -0500

This is an interesting question, without any basis in reality. But, still interesting. I can approach the answer to this from two different aspects. First, as prior US Army and second as USAF SERE. In the Army, I experienced the worst and the best of Officers. An Officer whom gave orders from the bunker in SEA and sent out patrols while reading comic "Archie" books, and never leaving the safety of the bunker area. In the other spectrum, an Officer who participated but ran his unit from the Desk, with NCO's doing the actual hands on management. Both the same rank. Yet, one knew how to manage and the other how to read a comic. In USAF SERE, we got the absolutely rare opportunity to direct Officers of all ranks (I had a 4 Star student) attend training. You get to not only direct the Officers, but see how their management styles work as a close in (non-participating) observer. The Ranking Officer will take charge of the Class, the junior ranking Officer will take charge of the Element while participating in the instruction both on base and in the field or in RT. On rare occasions (during that time of war - Vietnam) we had Senior NCO's as Element Leaders. Our Classes were 220 on average in size. With all this said, we all know that the learning process for any Officer is arduous. They must learn to manage difficult men in their environment (or in combat) and do so with little to no mistakes or technical expertise. In the USAF at the time, they faced a change of assignment within 2 years. So the young Officer can be undermined by his men or supported by them. We had an Officer at Operation Red Flag (Nellis AFB) who in his very first briefing to our 9 man unit, said; "I know all enlisted men are thieves, crooks, and liers. I've been sent by God to redeem you. Each day you will write for me one sentence out of the bible and annotate it with how you will apply that during each days SAREX mission. Needless to say that didn't happen. As Senior NCO it was my responsibility to bring him up to snuff tactfully in private. Which I did. Unfortunately, this previous "Staff" Officer never did grasp management and was fired with a letter of rebuke put in his envelope. But, for the most part, almost without exception every USAF Officer was exceptional in all areas. Combat Pilots shined above all the others I met (maturity). So, the very idea that we could make a Senior NCO outrank a Junior Officer is absurd. They have to learn somewhere and who better to teach them management then Senior NCO's who manage daily.

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Dec 28 at 2014 3:55 PM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 15:55:20 -0500

Yes; yes they should plain and simple. Two completely different world's I never understood that myself. till I was mentored by a great officer. The Senior NCO is there to guide and mentor that brand new officer so they can become an effective leader. To do otherwise fails that officer and their respective branch.

Response by 1st Lt Mike Hickman made Dec 28 at 2014 4:54 PM

1st Lt Mike Hickman — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:54:46 -0500

Some things never change. A 2nd Lieutenant outranks all enlisted men and is held to that higher standard.

Your question should be rephrased as such: "Do commanding officers hold their senior NCOs and junior officers to a high degree of professionalism?" Where the answer is 'yes', the 2nd Lieutenant is certainly in charge and accountable. Where the answer is 'no', the order of rank is ambiguous.

I view this question and the underlying sentiment as borderline insubordination. Accept it: Lieutenants ARE in charge, for better or worse.

Response by MSgt Jim Pollock made Dec 30 at 2014 6:50 AM

MSgt Jim Pollock — Tue, 30 Dec 2014 06:50:17 -0500

They do...that's the structure ,and I doubt it will ever change. I did appreciate that as a SNCO (at least in the AF) it is your responsibility to mentor JO's. For the most part I never minded saluting a LT as long as he/she seriously acknowledged my experience/advice and applied it where appropriate.

In my mind, that's how enlisted parlay their hard earned experience/ideas into potential policy down the line.

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Jan 7 at 2015 10:46 PM

SSG Kevin McCulley — Wed, 07 Jan 2015 22:46:13 -0500

Absolutely. The caste rank structure is repugnant to American values and the only ones who would defend it are those who benefit from it. It is as outdated as slavery. There are no peasants or nobles and with a volunteer army, our enlisted corps is not filled with uneducated masses. It is a total mismanagement of talent to continue as we are. We do so only because we lack the courage and because those who would do it benefit too much to do so. Officers lament the Generals who won't fix their promotion system because they think, "Well it produced me so it must work..." Well from the enlisted perspective, we look at you the same way.

Delete senior NCOs and company grade officers; insert warrants to fill the gap. Everyone goes to E6 and then decides on a tech or command track. This is obviously amazingly simplified and would require a total re-alignment of the military…. but it doesn’t change squad level tactics, which is how we fight.

Sweden, by the way, has eliminated its caste system.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Jan 7 at 2015 11:58 PM

Sgt Packy Flickinger — Wed, 07 Jan 2015 23:58:03 -0500

I've seen some pretty bad officers. Some who don't deserve to wear the bars. Then again, some pretty bad senior NCO's. In both cases, they both out ranked me and deserved their honors. The same goes for the O1 vs E9. 30 years an E is still subordinate to 2 weeks an O. That is how command structure works and the ONLY way it works.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Jan 8 at 2015 1:21 AM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 01:21:35 -0500

In a word, yes. This is how the military is, and all of post Vietnam Nam volunteered. When we raised our right arms, we accepted the system. If, as an NCO, you are uncomfortable with this, perhaps some introspection is indicated. The other option, of course, is to work to your own commission. Then, you'll be able to see the other side of the coin. Good luck and best of success. ..

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2015 2:41 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 02:41:47 -0500

Yes, they should. NCOs chose their path just as Officers chose theirs. If it's truly that important for an NCO to 'outrank' an officer, then they should either get a commission or rethink their priorities. Both are trained for very different things.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2015 9:51 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 21:51:08 -0500

This is a ridiculous question. You have such a small view of the the Army, the Army is not about you or what you think needs to happened.

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Jan 8 at 2015 11:03 PM

LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 23:03:03 -0500

Yes. That is the nature of rank and positions. It can be someone straight out of ROTC, a Service Academy, OCS, Direct Commission or someone who is prior service that has great experience becomes an O1. I saw a 1SG decide that she wanted to become an officer and did. I think as an O1 she was very well qualified with her prior experience.

Even if they weren't, the new LTs took the time to achieve their rank through the standards set. If the LT is willing to learn, be humble, and the PSG the same, much can be learned from each other. The big thing here is that everyone has to start somewhere. Our top generals were also young LTs and their experience led to their growth.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2015 3:22 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Jan 2015 15:22:22 -0500

Without question!

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Jan 22 at 2015 6:43 PM

PO1 Kevin Dougherty — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 18:43:34 -0500

As a Coastie my experience was a little different than most. I actually saw very few officers in my time once I got out of training mode. Some case like LORSTA Spruce Cape, we had a CPO (E-7) as OIC. The next two had a LTJG (O-2) as CO, and a CPO and W-2 as XO respectively. I was then XPO of a 8 man electronics maintenance shop. Keep in mind we are talking independent commands here generally with less than 20 men. By the time I got to a larger unit USCGC Decisive (82 officers and crew as I remember) I was a PO-1 (E-6) and in charge of my department reporting directly to the Operations Officer a full LT (0-3). The O-1's & O-2's I saw rotated through the departments and were told in no uncertain terms that they were there to learn. The CO instructed them to help where they could, but to take their directions from me. I was instructed in turn that I was to go to the Ops officer with any issues and he would deal.

I suspect that changed the dynamics quite a bit. I know I only had one who was an issue and he was an issue everywhere. That and the generally small size of the units made the relationship more of a peer to peer relationship. In general, even with unit commanders it was more relaxed and informal on a day to day basis than I saw in the other services.

Make no mistake, the officer/enlisted relationship was still there, but with only about 40000 active duty members and an average unit size, the dynamics were more of a small elite unit.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Jan 22 at 2015 10:27 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 22:27:33 -0500

Or to rephrase a bit more positively:
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/what-is-the-one-thing-every-young-officer-must-know

What is the ONE thing EVERY young Officer must know? | RallyPoint

There's been quite a few discussions about how clueless young Lieutenants (and Ensigns) are when they hit the Operating Forces (and we often are). Here it is: your chance to publicly and permanently record the one topic you think is the most critical for us to know when we step in at your unit. With some luck, maybe those young officers will read it here and have the epiphany they need privately and everyone will be better off for it. So hit...

Response by PO2 Stephen Brinkley (Scott) made Jan 22 at 2015 11:23 PM

PO2 Stephen Brinkley (Scott) — Thu, 22 Jan 2015 23:23:10 -0500

SGT Chris Hill Just because he or she is a boot officer doesn't mean that they don't deserve the rank given. Does it suck being an E-5, serving for 4 to 8 years already and you have to salute this kid, yes! But if he or she wants to be a good officer they will turn to you to train them and teach them.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jan 23 at 2015 1:39 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 01:39:09 -0500

Once I had an officer tell me I needed to attend OCS and become an officer. I told him no thanks. I'd make a terrible officer, I was too rude and crude. I knew my place and my place was an NCO.

No, not matter the rank, an officer will always out rank an NCO. We as SNCOs do need to take the young ones by the hand and lead them through the booby traps of the trade. It is our expert knowledge and guidance which will help mold and make an officer.

If we are weak or have bad leadership skills or are over step our bounds as NCOs then it's us who are at fault. I know there are some butter bars who believe their poop don't stink. As a SGM I was locked up and chewed out by a CPT once. I let him have his way, but when we got private, I took about twenty minutes or so to counsel this young CPT and clue him in on the way life was. After my little talk, he was a different person.

AS NCOs WE NEVER LET ENLISTED OR OTHER SEE US DISRESPECT OFFICERS IN PUBLIC. Counsel them professionally in private.

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2015 2:07 AM

MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Jan 2015 02:07:24 -0500

To answer the original question: Absolutely. There is a deliberate reason for the rank structure. The Army is set up like any other major corporation.

You can compare a new LT and a seasoned PSG to the dynamics of a season paralegal to a newly graduated attorney. The paralegal with over 10-15 years experience will in some cases have a better understanding of the legal process and certain attributes of the law. However, only a law school graduate and barred attorney can legally practice law. The same holds true when only a commander can legally administer UCMJ.

The hard truth is, you need the officer and NCOs in order to effectively operate a unit. Each has their own lane, role, and responsibilities. Each endure their specific hardships and joys unique to their position.

The role of the officer is being the one ultimately responsible for the mission; as the planner and the leader. The role of the senior NCO is to be experienced enlisted adviser to the OIC and to take charge of the training and care of the Soldiers.

I have been fortunate to work at every echelon between the company and corps - as a senior NCO and as an officer. In my experience, the absolute best units are the ones when the OIC and NCOIC are in perfect sync, back each other up, and maintain their roles.

Soldiers might not always listen to what you say, but they ALWAYS watch what you do. If both leaders do not work hand in hand and exude respect towards one another, expect the troops to follow suit.

Response by SSG David Carte made Feb 26 at 2015 10:19 PM

SSG David Carte — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 22:19:07 -0500

Nope

Response by SSgt Bruce Franklin made Feb 26 at 2015 10:38 PM

SSgt Bruce Franklin — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 22:38:44 -0500

Yes. The rank structure may be divided between management and operations. They were designed for specific functions. Good leaders use collaboration to fortify mission objectives. Senior NCO's implement operations of men and material. Officers determine which plans and missions to implement Senior Officer's strategy.

Response by Cpl Clinton Britt made Feb 26 at 2015 11:12 PM

Cpl Clinton Britt — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 23:12:57 -0500

I am sorry but A Boot Lt should stand tall before a SM

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2015 9:30 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 09:30:30 -0500

Yes.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2015 12:51 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 12:51:11 -0500

Yes.

They are the one's who accept the ultimate responsibility.

Response by MSgt Allan Vrboncic made Feb 27 at 2015 2:23 PM

MSgt Allan Vrboncic — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 14:23:54 -0500

No. Because one is a Commissioned Officer and the other is not.

Response by MAJ David Vermillion made Feb 27 at 2015 7:20 PM

MAJ David Vermillion — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 19:20:50 -0500

Yes, we must respect our military rank, otherwise why do we have it.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Feb 27 at 2015 7:48 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 19:48:59 -0500

Yes of course
Rank in of itself is not respect or exsperance

I take issue with an NCO or other enlisted person that refuses to acknowledge that.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2015 7:55 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 19:55:15 -0500

As an NCO, your primary duty is to train! It is the officers job to command. I work alongside the officers unit to provide realistic and relevant training. Senior NCO's need to work WITH the command team in order to take care of the soldiers and the mission. If you are doing your job you wouldn't have to worry about who outranks who.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2015 8:57 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 20:57:22 -0500

They don't. What I mean, they may hold a rank but that is in rank. It does not eliminate the responsibility of the senior enlisted to teach them how to be leaders in the military. That is part of the job, this is where they either learn respect and trust of his NCO's or we lose that very same respect and trust. A junior officer may have to be reminded of his place and taken down off a high horse that is a danger of the initial introduction to the power of their rank. Then they must learn to use that rank appropriately. People are not born with all the tools they need to be leaders in the military, that is earned and learned. Either teach them right or watch problems perpetuate themselves for yet another generation of military people.
I know someone on another post accused me of stating that mine is the only answer and it is either this or nothing. By all means, I want you to know, I speak with conviction to my words. That does not mean at any point in time that my learning is complete, I am not dead yet, so there is much to learn. ;)

Response by SPC Christopher Cramer made Feb 28 at 2015 9:10 AM

SPC Christopher Cramer — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 09:10:29 -0500

my time spent in the infantry taught me patients when dealing with new the new LT. As a mortarman I would take the time to explain what exactly my weapons system was capable of and how indirect fire was to be used in a combat situation. I would also explain to the LT that we were an asset that he could call on if needed and that we had capabilities that went beyond the "big badda boom"...i.e smoke, illum, wp, etc, etc. I more often than not was thanked by the new LT for explaining how we worked. my bottom line is this. everyone was new at some point and a little explanation and some patients towards the new guy (even if he is your boss) is well worth the effort.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Feb 28 at 2015 12:40 PM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 12:40:17 -0500

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 1 at 2015 12:39 AM

COL Charles Williams — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 00:39:17 -0500

You're joking right?

If you are referring to pay, than that is another issue. I agree a CSM should be paid better than a 2LT... but this about responsibility. Command responsibility, and you can research it, as have done often, is the key difference.

In the Army (in the US military) only one person is responsible when things go awry, and that is an Army Officer. Whether it is them personally, or their unit, the officer stands alone. Command responsibility is huge responsibility, and a very lonely place many times. NCOs generally take the fall when they are personally culpable, not when their unit is, that is always an Officer.

The Army has performed (as whole) pretty darn well since 1775, with Soldiers, NCOs, and Officers, and we remain the model for most other militaries to emulate. It is a system that works in garrison and in battle. It is not perfect, but it works well.

I love NCOs and I owe every single promotion and award to them, and our Soldiers. But, I can also say at every level of leadership, I have had less than stellar NCOs, just like we have less than stellar Officers. Don't let specific people/officers cloud a system that is simply awesome.

I honestly get tired (to say the least) of listening to NCOs bash officers, their pay, etc (whether in jest or genuine). When you are the one who steps up, stands alone, and is responsible (where the buck stops), then you can change the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines.

Response by MSgt David Rollins made Mar 1 at 2015 7:27 AM

MSgt David Rollins — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 07:27:24 -0500

I will keep it simple. The job of the "senior NCO" is to impart as much knowledge upon that "O-1" as possible so that when that O-1 has to make a command decision, it will be in the best interest the mission/job/personnel at hand; all the while remembering the senior NCO's guidance up to that point. Outranking an O-1 should never be the issue... Nuff said...

Did I step on toes? Oh, well...

David W. Rollins
MSgt USMC, Ret.

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Mar 1 at 2015 12:25 PM

SFC Collin McMillion — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 12:25:46 -0500

Oh come on, an officer is an officer, and a NCO is a NCO. Officers outrank NCO's, plain and simple.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 12:46 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 12:46:56 -0500

It's rank structure. The O Scale outranks the E Scale.

One thing that 2LT's need to remember, don't burn the bridges with the NCO's. Working together is pivotal in accomplishing any Platoon/Unit's mission. I've seen far too many 2LT's yelling at SGT's and SSG's because they were trying to be as professional as possible and the 2LT said, "I outrank you, Sergeant. You're dismissed."

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 7:41 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 19:41:49 -0500

Yes...does that mean than 2LT knows more than a Sr NCO? No. It's just part of the job.

Response by MSG David Chappell made Mar 1 at 2015 8:12 PM

MSG David Chappell — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 20:12:19 -0500

Senior officers and senior NCOs know something that lower enlisted don't. There is a relationship between the PLT SGT and the PLT leader that follows both as they grow. If your unaware of it your not ready for the rank and responsibility. NCOs at all levels know a 2lt out ranks them and we accept it. That is the foundation of chain of command. The NCO assists the officer and the officer respects the experience. Salute and execute

Response by SGT Joe Sabedra made Mar 1 at 2015 10:25 PM

SGT Joe Sabedra — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 22:25:47 -0500

In reality they do as it should be by our rank structure.

In the true form of life they know better then to correct the instructor and teacher.

As the O1 they are there to learn as the E1 is.

Common knowledge.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2015 11:14 PM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Mar 2015 23:14:10 -0500

In the 9 years that I have been serving I have had both good and bad Officers as well as good and bad NCO's, The good have 9 times out of 10 followed the good but at the same time there has been good ncos with bad officers and visa versa. In my opinion a good officer relys on not only his training but the experiance of their NCOS below them. As well as a good NCO not only trains his new officers assigned to their platoon but also learns more leadership from them. Your time in a leadership position should be an ever evolving ever learning time not trying to out preform or say you are better then another. Just because you are a senior non com doesnt mean you know everything just like just because you are an officer doesnt mean you know everything.

Response by SGT Tyler G. made Mar 2 at 2015 2:23 AM

SGT Tyler G. — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 02:23:21 -0500

Yes, for a variety of reasons I'm sure others have pointed out. However, that O-1 should have common sense and courtesy to respect that senior NCO for his superior experience and knowledge, and look to his guidance and advice to help in his self development as a leader. He should look to that senior NCO as a teacher and mentor, even though position dictates he outranks him.

Response by SPC Richard White made Mar 2 at 2015 4:13 AM

SPC Richard White — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 04:13:00 -0500

Every good Lt knows that his NCOs know what they are doing and should follow there guidance.Lts are the rank they are for a reason so yes they outrank an NCO but NCO are the backbone of the Army.

Response by Cpl Justin Sowell made Mar 2 at 2015 10:33 AM

Cpl Justin Sowell — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 10:33:32 -0500

Due to my own experience I think they need to require officers to complete a minimum of 4 years active before going to OCS. Every Mustang I ever met out performed the other officers in almost everything hands down. However, my first platoon commander was good because he understood that when it came to performing small scale operations in the field he needed to sit back, and let the nco's run the show.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2015 1:18 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 13:18:41 -0500

I hear someone's blinker is on....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2015 1:29 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 13:29:04 -0500

2 more cents... Ask most of the Officers that transitioned from enlisted to officer ranks... They will tell you that they had experience that was helpful but they thought they knew more when they started because of that time while enlisted. The soon realized that it was a completely different animal... I am a SSG and have no clue how to be an officer. Not saying that I could not do the job, I would fail if I went into it thinking like a SSG...assuming is just that...

Response by SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. made Mar 2 at 2015 5:48 PM

SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. — Mon, 02 Mar 2015 17:48:48 -0500

Of course! It's worked great this way for a long time!!

Response by SFC Boots Attaway made Mar 3 at 2015 8:28 AM

SFC Boots Attaway — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 08:28:47 -0500

It is the NCOs job to TRAIN the O1s in the real world of their MOS. As an infantry NCO I have trained many O1s in the field. They have been trained in the basics (IOBC) and by the books. But very few have been taught the real facts of conducting a raid, ambush or how the actual S1 works.

Response by SSG Kenneth Lanning made Mar 3 at 2015 8:42 AM

SSG Kenneth Lanning — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 08:42:40 -0500

Not sure if this has been said yet, but when it comes to leadership at the platoon, company, battalion, whatever, if one individual has his or her rank on their mind more than evolving a partnership that goes beyond rank then they are doing it wrong. The best leadership teams respect the roles and responsibilities of their counterpart regardless of what's on his or her collar; there are traditionally roles left for NCO's and other left for officers, but when it is all said and done it took two to both give the order and see that it is fulfilled. Can NCO's get things done without officer support? Yes. Can officers do the same without NCO's? Yes-they can. A lot of people get hung up on the fact that junior officers lack the experience, but with a well-lead platoon, the seasoned squad leaders will still ensure that things are handled correctly, and an intelligent lieutennant will allow this to happen. On the flip side, an intelligent platoon sergeant will allow his PL to lead from the front and take the role as senior enlisted advisor seriously, by providing both guidance to the PL as well as respect to show the rest of the platoon that he should be supported. Yes, there are bad NCO's and bad junior officers out there that try to lord over their position with an iron fist-but the good ones realize it isn't about just them, it's about everyone else in the platoon first.

Response by Sgt Bobby Armentrout made Mar 3 at 2015 9:58 AM

Sgt Bobby Armentrout — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 09:58:47 -0500

Yes, the new Lt should outrank enlisted personnel. And every SgtMaj or 1stSgt I ever worked around gets that. It's a different job.

I've known brand new 2nd Lts who were incredibly good leaders right out of the chute, and I've seen mustang officers with ten years enlisted time who were downright awful, as well as some that were fine officers, but prior enlisted service CAN be good for perspective.

In my opinion the effectiveness of a new officer will be more dependent upon how that individual develops trust and respect between the officer and his senior NCOs as he learns how to do what he is assigned to do. There is no causal relationship between good senior enlisted and good officers without that trust and respect, and some naturally do better at that than others.

Response by SFC Christopher Perry made Mar 3 at 2015 8:25 PM

SFC Christopher Perry — Tue, 03 Mar 2015 20:25:20 -0500

I have typed this three different times and I can't find a way to soften it up. Is there really any purpose to this conversation?

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 3:50 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Mar 2015 15:50:04 -0500

Absolutely not.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 2:39 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 Mar 2015 14:39:10 -0400

I think the system works how it is for the most part. Although technically 0-1's outrank senior NCOs there is a checks and balance system. If some cocky brand new LT disrespects a 1SG or CSM, then those enlisted will likely go to their battle buddies, the CO or BC, and that 2LT will get some ass chewing on how to show respect to someone who has possibly been in the military longer than that LT has been alive.

Yes an LT is "in-charge" but if you don't show respect to all your soldiers then they will do the bare minimum for you, and you will fail.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 20 at 2015 4:55 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Wed, 20 May 2015 04:55:41 -0400

I don't have a problem with an "0-1" (I hate using rank) or a 2LT outranking me. I welcome it actually. That 2LT might lead us on a mission. He is going to be accountable for everyone. I will be responsible for my small part of the pie, for my squad and my team. Even though that 2LT outrank me, I am still going to show him or her how MPs perform in LE duties so he knows what to expect. I hope the 2LT will be a sponge and learn as much as they can. It doesn't bother me one bit a 2LT outranks me.

Response by COL Ted Mc made Jun 26 at 2015 2:53 AM

COL Ted Mc — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 02:53:24 -0400

What's this "should"? The fact is that they do.

When I was an O-1, I (almost) always listened to what the senior NCOs had to say - I didn't necessarily do what they said, but I listened.

HOWEVER, if I didn't do what they said and ended up screwing the pooch - then I carried the can and if I did what they said, then they got their fair share of the credit. The free beers came when I was right and they were wrong.

So, what I say to every O-1 is "Listen closely to what your senior NCOs have to say, then make up your own mind what you are going to do AND accept the consequences - because that's why you are called a "leader". The WORST thing you can be is a "ditherer".".

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 26 at 2015 4:51 AM

PO1 John Miller — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 04:51:32 -0400

There is no should. It is our job as Petty Officers, Chief Petty Officers, and NCO's in the Army, Marine Corps, and Air Force to train the junior officers.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2015 5:21 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 05:21:43 -0400

Yes they should & already do.

Thought question to ask here, I hope you got the clarity/guidance you were looking for.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2016 3:08 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Dec 2016 15:08:49 -0500

No they shouldn't. I have watched privates square away 0-1s before.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2016 3:08 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Dec 2016 15:08:49 -0500

No they shouldn't. I have watched privates square away 0-1s before.

Response by MSG Robert Ford made May 12 at 2018 11:48 AM

MSG Robert Ford — Sat, 12 May 2018 11:48:15 -0400

Yes you should, but it does not mean you don't put him in his place respectfully if he is wrong... use tact and respect.... he is young and new to the army... you have been around, but you should gain his respect and do your job with out fail... and he not have to do your job as NCO...

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2018 11:49 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 May 2018 11:49:11 -0400

Enough of this bitterness from the E's regarding the fact that there are O's who are younger and/or less-experienced than they are. We are a volunteer force. We all had the choice to sign a contract. We all had the opportunity to understand the terms and conditions of that contract. If we are dissatisfied with the contract we negotiated, or envious of the contract another negotiated because we prefer its terms and conditions, then we need to consider doing something different (i.e.- start the commissioning process, separate/retire, etc.) when we have fulfilled our current contract term.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2018 11:54 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 May 2018 11:54:42 -0400

I don’t understand why people feel the need to argue about who is more important. Everyone is important, just in a different scope and capacity. Why can’t we just embrace our role(s) and move on?

Response by COL William Oseles made May 12 at 2018 11:57 AM

COL William Oseles — Sat, 12 May 2018 11:57:37 -0400

To take that point of view to its logical conclusion Senior NCOs should not outrank Private E-1s.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 12 at 2018 12:13 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sat, 12 May 2018 12:13:38 -0400

By law, by regs, by rank they do- however a damn smart butterbar, better listen to us if they want to succeed. My O3's would often give them the same advice.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2018 12:14 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 May 2018 12:14:52 -0400

As a marine Sgt soon to get a Masters Degree (and by soon, I mean next week) in my field, I see it as a double edge sword. Some times it is beneficial especially when dealing with people that cant accept change.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2018 12:30 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 May 2018 12:30:42 -0400

I would definitely say that an early-20s 01 with a year in should be in a "receive" mode for mentorship and guidance from people in their 30s who have reached E7 and above. You're still a kid, kid. Learn from those with experience and be humble. Your Soldiers down the line will respect you more for it. Should we stop saluting and following basic military courtesy? Hell no. If you don't like the fact that early 20s 01 outranks you and you're in your mid-30s with no fucking degree and haven't done the necessary legwork to be the same rank or higher than the kid? That's on you. Not them.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made May 12 at 2018 12:38 PM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Sat, 12 May 2018 12:38:47 -0400

simple answer is no - he is commissioned - we are not - now - a good Luie is one that pays attention to his NCO's - he must learn the difference between leading the platoon (his lane) and running the platoon (our lane) - leading the platoon is taking the commanders intent - developing a plan and disseminating that information to his NCO's - NCO's take his plan and execute it by providing purpose, direction, and motivation to the junior enlisted, oversee that preparations are made in order to execute, and the daily day to day upkeep of the troops. he must learn the difference of being the property book holder (his lane) and property maintenance (our lane). Being an officer, especially a company grade officer is not a fun job - you are constantly being assigned additional duties, you are constantly creating products, not only for the company commander, but the BN Commander, who is the approving authority for training exercises, yes - we senior NCO's go to company training meetings, were we get our marching orders for the short range calendar - but it's the LT's that do the work creating those products -so no - different responsibilities and duties - they have all the responsibility and accountability - we just have responsibility and accountability for the troops

Response by Sgt Scott McCleland made May 12 at 2018 12:45 PM

Sgt Scott McCleland — Sat, 12 May 2018 12:45:27 -0400

I was an E-4 Sgt....I had young 2LTs call ME sir....i corrected them in a tactful way...most Sr. NCOs know more than most Officers anyways, the respect given is for the rank not the person.

Response by SGM Frank Marsh made May 12 at 2018 12:48 PM

SGM Frank Marsh — Sat, 12 May 2018 12:48:15 -0400

someone had to say it

Response by CWO2 James Mathews made May 12 at 2018 1:18 PM

CWO2 James Mathews — Sat, 12 May 2018 13:18:12 -0400

As I see the situation the "butterbar"(as he is sometimes known) is either a man promoted from the ranks for his service or a one who is fresh from his collegiate schooling. I have dealt with both types, first as a Petty Officer (NCO) and later as a Commissioned Warrant Officer. In both cases my task, as I saw it, was to help this Ensign to determine his place in the Navy. That was my job. His job was to take command, listen to his NCOs, and then make the final decision at his level. Now that is a hard thing to do. Advice is one thing, the final decision is another! I have been in command on occasion, and I have made decisions with and against the advice of my NCOs, and it is difficult to do, even for someone used to the task. The leadership that has to be learned and exhibited toward one's juniors is the most difficult of all the things that one in command must learn. The task of every leader is to inspire every junior under his command to do his best. It is a task that is hard to master. The job of the NCO is to help the O-1 get to his highet potential. His job is to learn to make the right decisions as needed or required! That is the way the military is run. If you don't like that system, then you are in the wrong outfit! You don't have to like your O-1 but you do have to help him by doing your best to provide him with the knowledge he needs by your excellent example. Your O-1 in later years will reflect on others much of what you provide him with today! That is your task and it should be done to the maximum of your ability! Respectfully Submitted, J.L. Mathews, TMCM (SS), CWO-2, USN (Ret.)

Response by CW4 Scott Hyde made May 12 at 2018 5:44 PM

CW4 Scott Hyde — Sat, 12 May 2018 17:44:03 -0400

I think a better discussion would be on why the commissary gets $39 for a half sheet cake and $8 for a rotisserie chicken while Costco sells a better quality product for $19 and $5 respectively.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2018 6:58 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 May 2018 18:58:43 -0400

Sry but dumbass question. An officer will always outrank an enlisted person. Doesn't mean the senior nco doesn't have something to teach that officer & vise versa. The 2lt should listen & learn from the nco but still outrank him.

Response by Sgt Steve Flies made May 12 at 2018 7:26 PM

Sgt Steve Flies — Sat, 12 May 2018 19:26:35 -0400

Yes.
But a good lieutenant would listen to a an E7'S advice when making decisions.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2018 8:28 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 May 2018 20:28:22 -0400

YES!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2018 9:57 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 May 2018 21:57:33 -0400

These comments irritate me. If you are unhappy with your role or you don’t feel important enough as a Senior NCO, go to OCS, don’t get butthurt because an officer outranks you.
They are two completely different roles and the officer bears the brunt of the responsibility. As NCOs we teach and mentor because junior officers have a very short amount of time to learn a lot and the stakes are higher in the event they do mess up.

Response by Cpl Michael Praytor made May 13 at 2018 6:31 AM

Cpl Michael Praytor — Sun, 13 May 2018 06:31:42 -0400

All CO should have an assigned staff seargent til becoming an O2

Response by LtCol George Carlson made May 15 at 2018 5:27 PM

LtCol George Carlson — Tue, 15 May 2018 17:27:32 -0400

Much of what I have to say is probably in the year-plus of comments. Rather than repeat, allow me to be the "old sage" and relate one of the situations that, for me, was key to understanding this. First, for any of you who don't know, the Marine Corps is "different" in that all our officers, regardless of source and regardless of ultimate MOS, spend 8 months (it was 6 during Vietnam, but also 6+ days per week) at "The Basic School." It's strongly infantry oriented and followed by MOS schools (yes, even more Infantry for the 03s). Sitting in bleachers with 250 2ndLts, watching an M-60 machine gun demonstration, prior to us firing (and being A-gunner, and ammo humper). The instructor firing was a newly minted Sgt, fresh back from RVN. As we watched him use that weapon to hit a variety of targets scattered over the range (and never be off target by the second tracer), I realized a number of things. First, I would never be a good a machine gunner as he (and probably a LOT like him) was. That wasn't my job, it was his. Second, he was probably a great source of knowledge of where to place his weapon in a defense or base of fire in an offense. My job was to develop the overall scheme of the action, using his (and all the other Marines in my platoon's expertise) in a way that best supported my Company Commander's intent. I was responsible for the platoon's mission and he wasn't, but neither of us were there to be the sole source of knowledge. We both (all) had a part to play. That was true through my entire career and into a civilian second career as well. Everyone in the military has a role (not just a job) in the organization. We all bring our own experiences of both good and bad, what has worked, what hasn't, and what might. If an organization is to be successful, all that knowledge matters.