Should Officers be allowed to use first names and have hands in pockets around Enlisted Soldiers?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 16:22:49 -0500

Response by SGT Gregory Johnson made Feb 19 at 2014 4:26 PM

SGT Gregory Johnson — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 16:26:36 -0500

No. That kind of behavior is hypocritical and will damage the respect the soldiers have for their leadership and chain of command.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 4:27 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 16:27:09 -0500

SFC Cox,

The first names between officers of equal rank (or higher to lower) is an Army tradition from way back. It took me awhile to get used to it when I switched over but I don't think it is an issue when done in front of enlisted. It's just one of those weird things officers do.

Now the hands in the pockets is a completely different issue. It is difficult to expect basic discipline from your Soldiers when you do not display it yourself. As a senior NCO, this is where you can take the officer aside and diplomatically make the on the spot correction.

Response by CPT Laurie H. made Feb 19 at 2014 4:30 PM

CPT Laurie H. — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 16:30:28 -0500

Allowed to use first names? Sure. Should they? Depends on the situation.

Hand in pockets? No. 670-1 applies to everyone... officers shouldn't do it among themselves either.

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Feb 19 at 2014 4:36 PM

CSM Michael Poll — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 16:36:20 -0500

Hands in pockets is easy AR 670-1 prohibits it.  Make the on the spot correction.  First names for suboordinates and equal rank is historicaly acceptable and is still today, however towards SR ranking it is not authorized.  Sir or Ma'am is the appropriate response to a SR for the Officer Corps.

Response by SPC Gary Basom made Feb 19 at 2014 4:55 PM

SPC Gary Basom — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 16:55:43 -0500

An officer is supposed to lead by example and the rule has always been you never have those hands in your pockets walking around. at one time you were even chastised for buttons not buttoned. Officers and NCO use the SM's rank and last name in addressing them. Off duty it is at the discretion of what the unit commanders rules are. 

Response by SSG Christopher Freeman made Feb 19 at 2014 5:44 PM

SSG Christopher Freeman — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 17:44:23 -0500

First names, leave it up to the discretion of the officer. I know some raise a stink about it (mostly prior enlisted). Hands in pocket, no way. Politely make the correction and carry on.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 8:15 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 20:15:25 -0500

As I work in a command section where I am the only enlisted member, I don't see an issue with officers using first names. I had a discussion with some junior members about superiors using first names and I explained it to them that it makes for a more personal interaction from the ranking individual. I work for a 4 and 3 star general and it speaks volumes that they address me and other members by their first names. I have my rank and last name on all of my uniforms, when a senior ranking individual uses my first name, it adds a personal touch.

As far as the hands in pockets, the Air Force has AFI 36-2903 which clearly states do not stand or walk with hand(s) in pocket(s), except to insert or remove an item.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 9:21 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Feb 2014 21:21:11 -0500

I love how hands in pockets is almost a criminal offense in the Army. we've all seen the pictures of Patton, several SF, and high ranking people committing this crime.

We should make the change to 670-1 and let people do it. It's not like we are going to be walking up to CSM's and Generals with our hands in our pockets going "whats up dude"

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2014 10:38 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 10:38:42 -0500

The unwritten tradition is that the senior can use the junior's first name, IF the junior person doesn't object.

Personally, I'd just prefer that when on duty, especially in uniform, you call me Chief Walker. Makes things simpler.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2014 3:25 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 15:25:32 -0500

SFC Cox,

There are a lot of things that we "should" not do around enlisted Soldiers, but we do anyway. If we are going to address this matter, let' address everything that should not be done around enlisted Soldiers. We are not a perfect military and never will be. This is the best answer I can give you on this. Thank you for your post.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2014 9:14 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 21:14:15 -0500

I can't tell you how many NCOs I have seen with their hands in their pockets or on their belt (which I absolutely hate!). I usually whisper to them (if they are with Soldiers) but if they are alone I don't hesitate to say "Hey Sergeant, get you hands out of your pockets" or "Are you a gun slinger with your hands on your belt like that?" All ranks are guilty of this.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2014 9:35 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 21:35:46 -0500

The hands in the pocket is what kills me. Every single day my PL comes around the Soldiers in our platoon with his hands in his pocket, walks around troop building with hands in his pocket, walks from the motor-pool with his hands in his pocket, it's so annoying. Every day I tell him it's not authorized IAW AR 670-1 Para. 1-9 and it sets a bad example for the Junior enlisted Soldiers and he always responds with, "Hey! Do what your rank can handle". Like really sir!! The funny thing is that he never has his hands in his pocket when he's addressing our Squadron commander, Squadron XO, etc. It's a problem I keep seeing, addressing, and always get shut down and it's very frustrating because I make the correction and get stupid responses like "Do what your rank can handle". Obviously it can't handle that much if you can only put your hands in your pocket around your platoon and around our footprint.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 9:50 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 21:50:17 -0500

A Little military humor...

http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/01/soldier-discharged-for-having-his-goddamned-hands-in-his-pockets-says-csm/

Soldier Discharged For 'Having His Goddamned Hands in His Pockets', Says CSM

FT LEONARD WOOD, MO - A soldier with the 318th Military Police Company is being processed out of the Army after being found by his Sergeant Major as having “his goddamn hands in his pockets,” accordin...

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 9:59 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 21:59:33 -0500

As a commander, I've always used first names when addressing my platoon leaders and colleagues, but as a general rule, I try to keep it out of the picture when any enlisted personnel are around. It just doesn't seem to be professional.

That said, it all depends on the environment you're fostering. I've been in certain environments (Civil Affairs world) where using first names even between officers and NCOs is not only acceptable, it's encouraged and mandated. This is generally due to the nature of the work and the fact that we're often in civilian clothes and downplaying our military connection for operational purposes.

As a general rule though, when on duty, I think it's best to keep things on the up and up. You can't expect your subordinates to act in a disciplined way if you're not showing them a proper example of how to do it.

The pockets thing is a non-starter.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 10:08 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 22:08:05 -0500

And here is another bit on nice juicy NCO guidance...

http://ncojournal.dodlive.mil/

NCO Journal | The official magazine of noncommissioned officer professional development

The official magazine of noncommissioned officer professional development

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 10:11 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Feb 2014 22:11:31 -0500

Agree on the hands in pockets, its a degree of professionalism and the hands in pockets has a kind of slouchy appearance to it. Cross your arms if your cold-AR670-1 doesnt prohibit that and it works just as effectively.

As far as the first names go, if they are someone you work with on a daily basis, IE, you are a maintainer on a specified airframe and the pilots know you by name, sight, and go up with you flight by flight, berevity is key. Saying the word "Sir, or Maam" after every response, especially when looking for traffic in busy airspace, could be consequential to the lives of the crew and whatever or whoever may be on board. I believe that it should be left to the officer to make the decision, and I have been told many times before by much senior in rank that in private or on the aircraft to call them by first name basis only. However, when in the presence of others, proper military customs and courtesy still apply.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2014 5:42 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Feb 2014 17:42:43 -0500

Tactfully…some senior leaders don't take constructive criticism very well. However, if you approach it in a tactful manner, off to the side - not in front of other people, they will react far better than they would if you did it in front of troops. They will either thank you - or ignore you.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2014 3:40 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:40:34 -0500

Be sure you are able to cite a reg. Ar 670-1, 1-9

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2014 3:40 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:40:39 -0500

Post the portion of 670-1 that deals with this topic.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2014 6:39 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Feb 2014 18:39:22 -0500

I think MAJ Apticar is right. Most should know it is in AR670-1 and I know I am guilty of it from time to time.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2014 7:01 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Feb 2014 19:01:29 -0500

This is one of those often violated rules, mainly because the rule itself is stupid. I've seen everyone from my BDE CDR to my BDE CSM (who referred to the practice as his instructor pocket) down to my company commander do it. I ignore it and move on.

Response by 1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2014 10:18 PM

1SG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Feb 2014 22:18:15 -0500

Sir, do you mean like these officers?  I ask because it didn't appear to affect how they did their job; winning wars.<br>

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2014 2:57 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 02:57:36 -0500

<p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Calibri">Eddy,</font></font></font></p><p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

</font></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Calibri">The "right" thing to do is make a tactful,
on-the-spot correction and stand-by for back-blast. In garrison, I would make
the correction all the same. In the field/on deployment, priorities like
staying warm and staying alive may supersede (if only temporarily) 670-1. Our
standard should always be excellence, but when you're going on combat patrols
every day etc etc, priorities may be different.</font></font></font></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Calibri">On another note, I'm glad to see you on RallyPoint, brother.
Hope all's well with you and yours. Shoot me a note if you ever need anything.
College seems like a long time ago these days.</font></font></font></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Calibri">-Justin</font></p><p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

</font></p>

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2014 8:42 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 08:42:49 -0500

Ask the question, and let it speak for itself. "Why are your hands in your pockets, Sir?"<div><br></div><div>What the hell are they going to say? "Oh, my bad.", or "Mind your business"</div><div><br></div><div>Either way they're wrong, and you're right. If the wanted to keep their damn hands in their pockets they should've gone SF...</div>

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Mar 1 at 2014 11:22 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 11:22:59 -0500

Im just curious....has anyone written to have this stupid rule amended?  If not, I'm submitting in next week.  More to follow.  <div>I'd love some feedback that I can include in my justification.  (I am so serious)</div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2014 11:33 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 01 Mar 2014 11:33:22 -0500

(Working in TRADOC) I talk to so many people who say that It is okay to keep one hand in your pocket when instructing a class. I have looked an cannot find this anywhere. If anyone knows where this exception is (if it even exists, I assume it doesn't) please let the rest of us know.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 2 at 2014 1:18 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Mar 2014 01:18:03 -0500

Just a simple OTS correction, after they tell you their opinion on how much they think the military bearing and standards on this particular issue is stupid, say, roger, and go about your day.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2014 1:14 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Mar 2014 01:14:55 -0500

They should get rid of this policy. But will they? No. My parents always told me to be careful about the battles you chose. The hand in pocket battle is just not that important to waste any leadership currency on.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2014 5:37 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Mar 2014 05:37:59 -0500

SFC Cox, if officers are going to breaks regs, it would be better if they didn't do it around junior enlisted soldiers.  <div><br></div><div>Our senior NCOs tell us not to call our peers by first name because it's unprofessional, and we've been told since Basic that putting your hands in your pocket makes you a shitbag.  So when an officer does these things, which are we supposed to believe:  1) that the officer is an unprofessional shitbag, or 2) that my senior NCOs don't know what they're talking about?  For me, that's an easy call to make.</div>

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2014 11:42 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Mar 2014 11:42:45 -0500

shouldn't have to go any further than to say, Lead By Example.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 2:12 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 14:12:08 -0400

'Nuff said about the hands in pockets. Frankly, if we aren't allowed to use them, they shouldn't be on the uniform. There are plenty of pockets to put other things in. Regarding names, I tend to call people Mr. or Ms. "Smith," until I get to know them well enough to tell if they are comfortable with a LTC refering to them by their first name. Everyone has their last name on the front of their blouse or the back of their hat. It's impersonal to use last names and is usually frowned upon...people think you don't know your officers.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 2:32 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Mar 2014 14:32:29 -0400

I know exactly where your coming from. I worked at the Company level then moved up to BDE. I saw it everyday around new troops. I moved back to the Company and one of the BDE troops where moved aswell. We have had nothing but trouble with the troop. Being that the highest rank here is a CPT and he worked directly for a MAJ he doesn't care. He also goes back to his old boss and complains all then time. We are now looking to separate him because he won't respect our lower rank structure.

Response by CW2 Traften Werenskjold made Mar 14 at 2014 3:20 AM

CW2 Traften Werenskjold — Fri, 14 Mar 2014 03:20:45 -0400

The first name thing is never going away, especially in the Officer and more specifically the Aviation world. We would need to get rid of the pockets in order to keep people from putting hands in them. As a wise person once said, "Ain't nobody got time fo dat."

Response by SSG Micah Faia made Mar 22 at 2014 5:38 PM

SSG Micah Faia — Sat, 22 Mar 2014 17:38:28 -0400

I, for one, believe that there is something wrong here when it comes to defining things as "traditional" in the military. An E-8 (with a group of SR. NCOs from our Division HQ) held a meeting with our NCOs in the BDE in Fort Sill to discuss the issue of "hazing." He went on to explain that there is an issue with NCOs explaining themselves for hazing by pointing out that it is "traditional" to smoke a Joe in order to discipline them. Do I agree that it is traditional? At the time, Yes, but what is traditional? MSG (nameless) explained that yes, maybe we've all been smoked in our day, BUT it is not traditional. He explained that for something to be traditional, it HAS to be written in the ARMY'S traditions....which no Soldier will find smoking written anywhere. So if this were true, then I don't think it makes sense to allow people to call each other Michael or John on the basis that it is "traditional." I think....it is highly unprofessional, if anything, whether or not it is in the presence of enlisted.

Response by TSgt Michael Burke made Mar 24 at 2014 8:32 AM

TSgt Michael Burke — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 08:32:35 -0400

The short response, Hell no! I would correct the straight away and if you approach and bering is spot on what can they say? It reminds me of my boss asking me to discipline the younger troops on their dress and appearance, he never seemed to have a decent looking starched uniform, forget about the haircut. I was the epitome of dress and appearance and everyone in the unit was well aware of it. No Respect for that officer REGARDLESS OF HIS RANK!!!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2014 3:39 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 03:39:43 -0400

On the first name thing.....if we're gonna set the standard on everything, it needs to be everything, if its accepted because of tradition, change the regs.

As far as the hands in pockek think.....I think that's self explanatory

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Mar 30 at 2014 3:42 AM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 03:42:12 -0400

In the Ward Room, I don't care but when they are among the Juniors they damn well better be setting the example and if they don't I know Damn Sure that the Chief will be happy to enlighten them.

Response by 1SG Eric Rice made Mar 31 at 2014 12:23 PM

1SG Eric Rice — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 12:23:22 -0400

Until the regulation is updated to reflect that leaving your hand/s in your pocket is acceptable then the standard must be enforced. If we as leaders do not enforce the standard then we have just created another standard. In any case the correction must be done with tact.

Response by SFC Michael Hartwig made Apr 8 at 2014 10:14 PM

SFC Michael Hartwig — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 22:14:03 -0400

Tactfully correct them Sir.

Response by SGT Michael Smith made Apr 12 at 2014 6:49 PM

SGT Michael Smith — Sat, 12 Apr 2014 18:49:16 -0400

I always made a point of getting on to my soldiers for doing it, telling them it was unprofessional within ear shot of the officer who did it. Some times they took the hint. Some times they didn't. Beyond that, I ignored it. It wasn't much of a problem in our battery though as our command team was pretty squared away when it came to letting junior officers know they should be setting the standards.

Response by SSgt Paul Fraser made Apr 13 at 2014 3:11 PM

SSgt Paul Fraser — Sun, 13 Apr 2014 15:11:03 -0400

If you have time to be worrying about whether or not people have their hands in their pockets, you must be neglecting another important part of your job, because you've got way too much time on your hands...

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2014 7:21 PM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 19:21:56 -0400

Hands in pockets = cold/cool = weak/nasty

you better have some gloves on and people are getting frost bitten

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2014 8:40 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 May 2014 08:40:39 -0400

what I was taught as far as first name bases and hands in pocket there is a time and place for that along with respect.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2014 11:34 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 May 2014 11:34:01 -0400

Standards are standards and no one is exempt, no matter what rank. hands should not be left in pockets by any one no matter rank the only exception is to quickly recover something from the pocket

Response by SSG Robert Pierce made Jul 28 at 2014 12:03 AM

SSG Robert Pierce — Mon, 28 Jul 2014 00:03:18 -0400

No, I thinks it a form of disrespect to the Uniform and they are setting a bad example for our Soldiers. No, they should be authorized to call each other by their names. Neither should one call the other one (man, bro, chick or guy) for that matter. The only people who call me by my name is my family. I once saw a LTC staff officer with his hands in his pockets. I asked if I could take his photo, he said sure and emailed to my CSM. That officer never again was caught with his hands in his pockets .

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2014 2:59 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Aug 2014 02:59:00 -0400

I believe that when it comes to names, officers should be like all decent human beings. Ask and call a person by what they prefer. When speaking to a peer or subordinate, asking them their name preference is a means of showing you actually care about how they like be referred to. If you simply call everyone by their last name despite being asked to call them by their first name or something else, it sends the message that you don't care what they think / want / feel. No one should have their hands in their pockets around anyone as per AR 670-1. If I have my hands in my pockets, I want enslisted Soldiers to call me out on it and cite the reg. That being said, many officers and some senior non commissioned officers will get pissed off at you and cite their rank and various forms of "Foxtrot Uniforms" The point of all regulations is to enforce standards and discipline. Though I believe that many regulations are silly or downright pointless, it is my job to uphold standards as it is yours. You can always point out that violating regulations is an article 92 for the offender, though they'll probably laugh you off.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2014 7:00 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Aug 2014 07:00:29 -0400

My thought process on hands in pockets:

1. We have humans in the Army.
2. We forge them into Soldiers and set high standards.
3. A lot fail to meet the standard. Any standard. Most are making the effort to meet the standard, at least.
4. Some Soldiers, though, (or humans) are kinda weird.
5. Like, you know, weird.
6. Hand in pocket + weird= ???
7. Please no hands in pockets.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2014 7:33 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 29 Aug 2014 19:33:16 -0400

That first name calling is kinda odd, but for pockets, an enlisted soldier really can't tell an officer that they're "wrong."

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Sep 14 at 2014 8:19 AM

CPT Ahmed Faried — Sun, 14 Sep 2014 08:19:30 -0400

First names, yes. Hands in pockets? unless you are fishing for a key. Otherwise go SF where the little stupid rules don't apply.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jan 16 at 2015 12:08 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Fri, 16 Jan 2015 00:08:11 -0500

I am a Staff Sergeant. I have interacted with civilians who by pass my rank and call me "Martin". I didn't like that. I felt uncomfortable with a civilians either having lacking respect or being down right ignorant. So I educated them, "Mr. Martin, William, or SSG Martin". Please select one. I have only met a few civilians who had a problem with that but I didn't do any sort of business with them until they conformed.

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Jan 19 at 2015 2:11 PM

SPC James Mcneil — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 14:11:53 -0500

That is very much a "do as I say not as I do" mentality, and it's unprofessional. So, no.

Response by SGT Rick Ash made Oct 4 at 2015 9:13 PM

SGT Rick Ash — Sun, 04 Oct 2015 21:13:58 -0400

HELL NO! What in the world is going on? Isn't this being taught and reinforced in the military? If I am visiting somewhere and see this I will stand an officer to attention and rip him up one side and down the other. Any smirk or indolence and I'll just have to take them for a short little ride in my car. I won't stand for this!

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Oct 5 at 2015 5:29 PM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Mon, 05 Oct 2015 17:29:06 -0400

How long has the hands in the pockets reg been around? I can remember when being in Instructor School at Jackson to get my 05B4H Instructor MOS, in the late 1960s, being told to keep my off hand in my pocket to keep superfluous motions from distracting students.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Oct 6 at 2015 1:06 PM

SGT Michael Glenn — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 13:06:56 -0400

When did all this start??? Hand in the pockets was never allowed when I served and it was hardly an issue back then, I guess its all just been sliding down hill due to the amount of articles this forum produces about it. Soldiers dont take the military seriously because the leaders dont. As far as 1st name basis goes, only my commander was ever allowed to call people by their 1st names and very rarely did it. If the person out ranked you the title was always used no matter what if you were in a work related setting.When we got together after duty hours it was left to the discretion of the person as to whether or not they liked 1st names and that was respected. Whats going on in todays Military???

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Oct 6 at 2015 1:44 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 13:44:15 -0400

Officer culture. Not always for the defender of regulations. The first name thing in front of enlisted is just a no no, especially in front of junior enlisted who are unaware that officer culture is very prominent in the services. Hands in pockets is just violating regulations. Officer culture must go back to when enlisted were practically cannon fodder and arrow catchers and officers were highly educated and hard to replace. Gentlemen.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 4:16 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 16:16:04 -0400

Negative on both accounts...especially if the enlisted are being held to that standard.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 4:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 16:18:56 -0400

To answer you question about hands in pockets, no! They shouldn't be allowed to do it period. Whether they are around enlisted soldiers or commissioned officers. AR 670-1 outlines this very clearly. DA PAM 670-1 also clearifies this. As far as first names, I believe it is okay for an officer of equal rank to call another officer by their first name.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 4:25 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 16:25:01 -0400

No! Rules are rules. We aren't in college anymore!

Response by PO1 Mike Edgecomb made Oct 6 at 2015 4:27 PM

PO1 Mike Edgecomb — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 16:27:10 -0400

The crusty Navy Master Chief noticed a new seaman and barked at him, "Get over here! What's your name sailor?"

"John," the new seaman replied.

"Look, I don't know what kind of bleeding-heart pansy crap they're teaching sailors in boot camp these days, but I don't call anyone by his first name," the chief scowled.

"It breeds familiarity, and that leads to a breakdown in authority. I refer to my sailors by their last names only; Smith, Jones, Baker, whatever.

And you are to refer to me as 'Chief.’ Do I make myself clear?"

"Aye, Aye, Chief!"

"Now that we've got that straight, what's your last name?"

The seaman sighed. "Darling, My name is John Darling, Chief."

"Okay, John, here's what I want you to do ...."

Response by SSG Delanda Hunt made Oct 6 at 2015 8:17 PM

SSG Delanda Hunt — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 20:17:47 -0400

putting your hands in your pockets mean you just want to do push-ups

Response by SFC Rollie Hubbard made Oct 7 at 2015 2:17 AM

SFC Rollie Hubbard — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 02:17:47 -0400

Not only no but HELL no, as an NCO you should pull that person off to the side and respectfully explain that that does not represent the right image to the troops.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 5:19 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 05:19:15 -0400

Response by LTC Lewis Cox made Oct 7 at 2015 7:32 AM

LTC Lewis Cox — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 07:32:25 -0400

The closer you become to your.subordinates the more difficult it becomes to send them into harms way in combat. Officers, know your subordinates but keep your distance! You too can suffer from PTSD! This applies to all ranks. Sew your pockets shut if you have a problem keeping your hands out!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 12:49 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 Oct 2015 12:49:42 -0400

Hands in pockets? Hell, no.
First names between equals or from higher to lower? Not recommended in my book, especially around junior Joes/Joannes...but I am pretty old school. Around senior NCOs it seems to be acceptable, but it still makes me a little uncomfortable.

Response by SSG Bradley Ford made Nov 23 at 2015 2:39 PM

SSG Bradley Ford — Mon, 23 Nov 2015 14:39:18 -0500

AR 670-1 is all you need to know.

Response by SFC Rick H made Dec 3 at 2015 8:07 PM

SFC Rick H — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 20:07:43 -0500

Here is my take on " air force gloves ", or hands in the pockets and the use of first names. Quoted below is from a CSM- he is correct and it is very easy; AR 670-1 is the answer. As for the use of first names- I once had a 1SG who had a bad habit of calling everyone Chief. He called me Chief when I was a SSG one time too many. I corrected him professionally and tried to help him understand the fact that, I had indeed earned my rank and the right to be addressed in that way- just as he earned his! That being said, no matter the rank, each and every soldier has the right to be addressed by the rank in which they have achieved and wear. Silence is consent or agreement so stand up and speak up as a professional!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 10 at 2015 4:29 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:29:32 -0500

I saw this happen not just among officers but also among enlisted, after deploying

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Dec 11 at 2015 3:15 PM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Fri, 11 Dec 2015 15:15:32 -0500

First names are prejudicial to good order and discipline. There is a rank structure for a reason. When first names are introduced into the equation, it levels the playing field that does not need to be leveled. We have officers, NCO's and Junior enlisted structures for a reason. We aren't here to be buddies and pals. I know friendships grow and exist but they should grow out of respect for the positions each one holds. In one of my units, I was one of only three officers and me, my first Sgt and CMSgt all worked very close together and were friends but it was always Chief and First Sgt or Shirt not Joe or Jim. With the other officers it was Maj or Capt. Any officer worth their salt will listen to their NCO's especially when they are politely correcting them...part of their duties as an NCO to ensure standards are met...across the board.

As far as the hands in the pocket goes, it is clearly written in the regulation...shouldn't be a question until it is changed or unless you are the one requesting the change.

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made Feb 3 at 2016 3:19 PM

SGT Philip Roncari — Wed, 03 Feb 2016 15:19:33 -0500

I know this answer seems to come from the dark agesthe 60s,but on returning from Vietnam I was assigned to the AIT committee group at Ft. Polk LA as an instructor on the patrolling range.I was surprised by the trainees telling me don't bother to come to attention and saluting their LTs when they visited the patrolling point as the LTs had told them they just wanted to be one of the guys happened on many occasions so this is an old problem and by the way this was not while we were out on the actual patrol areas as we all know there is nothing more frightening than a second lieutenant with a compass!

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Feb 5 at 2016 4:02 AM

Capt Seid Waddell — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 04:02:55 -0500

I was on a first name basis with my O-6 commander when I was a 2LT.
He called me Seid and I called him Sir.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2016 3:47 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Mar 2016 15:47:32 -0500

A puppy dies every time a first name is used in the Army and pockets on the uniform are like Army grass. They are for looking at and maintaining, not for using!

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Nov 20 at 2016 1:02 AM

1stSgt Eugene Harless — Sun, 20 Nov 2016 01:02:04 -0500

There is a time and place for everything. Generally the answer is no.

Response by SFC Marcus Belt made Nov 22 at 2016 9:06 AM

SFC Marcus Belt — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 09:06:12 -0500

SOF Imperative #1 - Know your operational environment.

We all know the regs, and yet almost all of us have placed our hands in our pockets for reasons other than to retrieve or place an item in the pocket (AR 670-1)...if the Soldier has their hands in their pockets in an environment where you are inclined to enforce the reg, then they failed to execute Imperative #1.

Response by SSG Robert Martin made Feb 8 at 2017 9:24 PM

SSG Robert Martin — Wed, 08 Feb 2017 21:24:49 -0500

No!

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Apr 8 at 2017 6:12 PM

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Sat, 08 Apr 2017 18:12:53 -0400

No hands in pockets, tell them in a discreet Manor. First names ok in the right setting, never in front of Enlisted

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Apr 8 at 2017 6:14 PM

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Sat, 08 Apr 2017 18:14:35 -0400

Also, I don't know what the reg said in 1941, so I won't pass judgement

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2017 6:41 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Apr 2017 18:41:45 -0400

Why are they exempt from Dress and Appearance standards?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2017 7:52 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Apr 2017 19:52:02 -0400

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Response by William Devine made Apr 8 at 2017 9:39 PM

William Devine — Sat, 08 Apr 2017 21:39:06 -0400

No absolutely not

Response by Michael Rice made Apr 8 at 2017 11:49 PM

Michael Rice — Sat, 08 Apr 2017 23:49:06 -0400

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2017 4:22 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Apr 2017 04:22:08 -0400

How about hands in pockets in cold weather gloves or not. It's cold instead of being a Robot and being little drones use some commen sense... I know that those two words blows people's minds andthey are so indoctrinated by bullshit but there is nothing wrong with it. There are a lot more issues with the army then " OMG someone has their hands in their pockets"

Response by CPL Mark Marcus made Apr 9 at 2017 10:50 AM

CPL Mark Marcus — Sun, 09 Apr 2017 10:50:28 -0400

No you are a leader act like it

Response by Gabriel Volentine made Apr 9 at 2017 2:55 PM

Gabriel Volentine — Sun, 09 Apr 2017 14:55:59 -0400

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2017 3:00 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Apr 2017 15:00:15 -0400

I only have a problem if they then chew out an enlisted person for doing the same.

Response by SPC Mike Dittmar made Apr 13 at 2017 3:48 PM

SPC Mike Dittmar — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 15:48:18 -0400

No hands in pockets EVER.

Response by MSG James Hughs made Apr 20 at 2017 10:56 PM

MSG James Hughs — Thu, 20 Apr 2017 22:56:34 -0400

The question is not if they should be " allowed " .....OF COURSE NOT.... they should lead by example .....the question is what do you do about it when it happens..... I feel it is the senior NCO's job to quietly privately "suggest" the officer stop what he knows is not proper behavior.
A good officer will take that constructive informal counseling to heart.... if he does not....the next step is to seek support from the chain of command..... NO QUESTION this is risky and can cause problems..... I had an A-Team leader that insisted on "micro-managing".....I told him if the troops need guidance.....he should use me..... that is MY JOB..... well....he decided he did not like my leadership style ...he wanted to be the team sergeant..... and started grooming me for relief of my command.... finally the CO told me to find a new job.....he had lots of team sergeants but not that many team leaders..... four months after I was re-assigned.... I met the CO.... he confided in me " I got rid of the wrong SOB".... I just smiled.....The captain was re-assigned to Fort Benning and became the Special Forces instructor at the Infantry School..... and was fired from that job......YOU CAN NOT FIX STUPID

Response by MSG Randall Rankin made Aug 13 at 2017 4:46 PM

MSG Randall Rankin — Sun, 13 Aug 2017 16:46:43 -0400

HELL NO!

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2017 5:43 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Aug 2017 17:43:18 -0400

I don't think it's appropriate especially hands in pockets but certain units from experience have tight relationship and use first names especially special operations

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2017 6:00 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Aug 2017 18:00:47 -0400

Hands in pockets? No! Use first names? Under special circumstances, maybe. Normally? No! These actions do not represent good military bearing.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Aug 13 at 2017 7:48 PM

SFC Jim Ruether — Sun, 13 Aug 2017 19:48:58 -0400

I was in an Army Field Artillery Unit and we used to call our front packets "Air Force Gloves" and made examples out of anyone foolish enough to place their hands in their pockets. Individuals were pointed out and mocked, made fun of and chastised. We used to say that person missed his wife or girlfriend and was therefore entertaining himself through his pockets. Now a days that could include your buddy, or a friend from college that maybe decided he wanted to be your girlfriend instead of your pal. I believe when you see a fella with his hands in his pockets a good swift kick to his crotch is in order. Is that strong enough language that most folks will understand. My first name for most of my career was Sergeant. You called me by my given name and I would probably ignore you. As far as I am concerned any break down in courtesy or respect is a break down in discipline. It leads to familiarity and possible favors asked for or expected. It doesn't due the Military Service any good and therefore shouldn't be allowed!

Response by SPC Greg Campbell made Jan 31 at 2018 1:46 AM

SPC Greg Campbell — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 01:46:27 -0500

Found out the hard way not to yell out HEY LT. Our armor unit was tight, xo called me Greg or 'what ya do this time'. Was his driver. In uniform it was rank, sir or asshole. But when we went skiing it was 85% of the time with his wife, she told me to call by his first name. Think I may of called him by name a few times. Tried not to put my hands in my pockets but when agitated I also use my hands to speak. And sometimes my hands are cold

Response by SPC David Dupey made May 23 at 2018 9:44 PM

SPC David Dupey — Wed, 23 May 2018 21:44:54 -0400

Hands in pocket it not alowwed unless retrieving something from pocket i have in the past asked or informed a officer and he apologized along with the first name is for off duty not on duty but no one is perfect all the time just remember to us tacked

Response by MSG Reid Zohfeld made Feb 18 at 2019 12:59 PM

MSG Reid Zohfeld — Mon, 18 Feb 2019 12:59:36 -0500

Just another case of young entitled officers who think they are above the rules and regulations
I personally would correct the youngster
Thank god I am retired

Response by MSgt Charles Clawson made Feb 18 at 2019 3:45 PM

MSgt Charles Clawson — Mon, 18 Feb 2019 15:45:36 -0500

No way, if a enlist did it they would be worry. Why should a office do it.

Response by CPL Christopher Trafnik made Feb 22 at 2019 4:40 PM

CPL Christopher Trafnik — Fri, 22 Feb 2019 16:40:19 -0500

I would like to see the Senior Leadership "Be Know Do", however I only worry about peers and subordinates.

Response by LTC Ken Connolly made Jul 22 at 2019 2:45 PM

LTC Ken Connolly — Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:45:12 -0400

In uniform...no. There may be a time to use first names, but that is usually...no too.

Response by MSG Scott Berndt made Sep 13 at 2019 8:17 PM

MSG Scott Berndt — Fri, 13 Sep 2019 20:17:04 -0400

No and No

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2019 1:36 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Oct 2019 13:36:01 -0400

personally, I think the "no hands in the pockets" is one of the stupidest regulations out there. 34 years, combat vet of Desert Storm, multiple deployments to Iraq, several CONUS mobilizations, too many to count state activations for hurricane and tornado relief duty, etc. I think I've earned the right to have my hands in my pocket.

Response by SGT James Hamill made Oct 31 at 2019 6:18 PM

SGT James Hamill — Thu, 31 Oct 2019 18:18:28 -0400

Depending on circumstances and the environment. Is this a party in someone's house/ or on the base? or during an enemy surprise attack? BUT usually its not very classy under most circumstances and affects troop discipline and morale.

Response by SFC Michael W. made Dec 25 at 2019 1:29 PM

SFC Michael W. — Wed, 25 Dec 2019 13:29:32 -0500

No, simple as that.

Response by Lt Col Leslie Bryant made Feb 3 at 2020 12:36 AM

Lt Col Leslie Bryant — Mon, 03 Feb 2020 00:36:00 -0500

No, we have well established uniform wear criteria. No problem pulling person aside and correcting them, no matter your rank. A lot of doctors and nurses need help with military protocol and uniform regs when they enter any service and sometimes thereafter. Can’t count the many times I helped direct commission medical, nursing, lab, biomedical personnel with Pointing their rank in the right direction, on gig lines, shoe polishing even marching. We’re one team and need to always assist each other.

Response by PO2 Andrew Ream Sr made Apr 8 at 2020 4:47 AM

PO2 Andrew Ream Sr — Wed, 08 Apr 2020 04:47:12 -0400

As one of my DI's used to say, "Not just no, but HELL no!"

Officers are supposed to set an example. 1st names? Depends on who they're talking with, and what's being discussed.

Hands in pockets? Totally unsat.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Sep 23 at 2020 2:39 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Wed, 23 Sep 2020 14:39:38 -0400

There are times your hands should be in your pocket, if you around electricity, it would be the prudent thing, working with explosives may also be prudent in certain situations. A lot of Technical Warrants, and I have to admit guilty as charged. keep their hands in their pocket? If you arte near a running engine, it is smart idea to remove dog tags, necklaces, rings, watches and anything else. I kept my hand in my pocket as I never wanted to find that live circuit, as Soldier Wrench Tuner was asking me for advice. That said, in General we shouldn't. As for the first names, this can be a two sided coin, I can see where it can build the esprit of a section or unit. I can also see where some may be offended by it. For the guard and reserve, there is an interesting dichotomy. The guy you work in real life is now your subordinate on weekends. I have seen that a few times, and you may see the subordinate refer to the superior by a first name.