Should Officers be required to have a Specific Degree in order to be commissioned?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:09:54 -0500

I am noticing an increasing amount of mostly incompetent Officers joining the ranks.  I guess part of it has to do with the War but I believe there needs to be a new standard. What I mean is that an individual should only get Commissioned with certain degrees which could translate into a Leadership role. Many moons ago when a person went to College they matured but these days it is basically an extension of High School for most. I know there are many Great Officers out there but it is time to make a more strict standard for being able to Lead. I look forward to many Great responses.  Thank You.

Response by SSG Jason Hoadley made Mar 5 at 2014 5:11 PM

SSG Jason Hoadley — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:11:47 -0500

Do you feel that they should have Degrees matching their branch?

Or are you thinking something different?

Should they have an Arts or a Science degree?

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Mar 5 at 2014 5:21 PM

Maj Chris Nelson — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:21:14 -0500

I am commissioned as a Nurse.  I had to have my BSN to receive said commission.  I realize that there are many roles that do not require the same...think most of them are in what would be consdiered "Professional Occupations" (Law, Medical, Nursing, Chaplain...).  I believe that it should be up to the service to screen perspective officers to determine where they should go.... (career path or Ft. Livingroom).

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 5:30 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 17:30:10 -0500

I cannot think of a degree from any college that will prepare a young LT for what will be expected of them as a platoon leader. I don't care if you have a PHD in nuclear physics, when you have 40 young lives in your hands you need to have experience, not a piece of paper. I know of many 20+ year old specialist and privates with more combat experience than the average LT today. <div>I'm a firm believer that ALL officers should come from the NCO  ranks. Once you make SSG you are working to become a SFC and the Army decides whether you cut the mustard. I think when they are looking at your records they should offer you tow choices. Promotion to SFC or direct commission. </div>

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Mar 5 at 2014 6:42 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 18:42:02 -0500

You're noticing this trend, SSG Fay?  I would love to see the quantifiable data you've been collecting and the plan of action you see for righting this 'incompetency'. STOP THE MADNESS!  I am really tired of reading about a very small population of NCOs randomly calling out 'incompetent officers' or the like.  Maybe the problem is the NCO Corps not taking the time to properly integrate the officer to the unit. Officers already have strict educational standards...whether it's a service academy, OCS or ROTC commission, our future leaders go through many levels of education.  A degree doesn't make an officer...it's the levels of military education and experience.  (I'm sure our officer counterparts can elaborate) Stop complaining and start making a difference!  We're ONE team here, folks.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 9:56 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 21:56:44 -0500

I see ZERO connection between a degree and leadership skills.  Maybe it's leadership training that is lacking....

Response by TSgt Christopher D. made Mar 5 at 2014 10:53 PM

TSgt Christopher D. — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 22:53:38 -0500

"Needs of the Air Force" aside, I will never, ever understand how a young officer with an accounting degree ends up a Security Forces officer, and an officer with a criminal justice degree ends up a comptroller.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Mar 5 at 2014 10:57 PM

LCpl Mark Lefler — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 22:57:32 -0500

I reported to a capt that had a degree in P.E. I know that's great for training but I'm not sure how it would be for military leadership. Though never having been an officer, I suppose my opinion on the topic is a bit invalid.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2014 11:14 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Mar 2014 23:14:29 -0500

I don't think that Officers should necessarily have certain degrees in order to earn a commission, but I do think that the military should try to align the skills and education of its service members with specific jobs.  For example, when selecting new Officers for a highly technical job, it would make sense to try to assign that job to someone who has a degree in a related field.  This will potentially better match skills and knowledge with the requirements of the job.<div> </div><div>There are certain jobs that do require specific degrees for commission.  Lawyers, doctors, chaplains, etc. are all required to have degrees in their respective fields.</div>

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 6 at 2014 9:35 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Mar 2014 09:35:06 -0500

SSG Fay,  While I agree that there are always leaders that need improvement (in the Officer and NCO Corps). I think you would find that the educational standards for officers are quite high. Here's my story. I went to a military high school. I did well. I earned an ROTC scholarship. I attended George Mason University and took 15 credits or more per semester while managing ROTC curriculum. I spent a summer at Airborne School, a summer at Robin Sage, a summer at FT Benning BCT, and a summer at LDAC (a one month field problem to evaluate ROTC officer candidates). I graduated with a BA in Government. I earned a commission as an active duty Infantry Officer and attended IBOLC and Ranger school. Does any of this make me General Patton? Hell no. But it is a standard glide path for junior officers, and it is rigorous. Do bad apples get through? Roger that. Does that have anything to do with the degree they earned? No. Leaders are born, and then molded and refined. I have had outstanding mentors, both NCOs and Officers that have helped me to develop along the way.  My guess is that you have had a few bad experiences with your leadership. Don't let that poison your oppinion of the Officer Corps as a whole. Some leaders just have their head stuck up their forth point of contact. Those guys are beyond help. Others just need a professional NCO and a great Commander to get them on track to being a leader worthy of their Soldiers.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 2:44 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 02:44:56 -0500

SSG Private RallyPoint Member - A degree has zero connection with common sense or competence. I have an Associates Degree as a nurse... joining back before they made the BSN mandatory....a decision I support fully to become uniform with the rest of the military.

There are zero college courses that teach you about Army life unless you are in a service academy, and very few college courses that teach you about leadership. How do you propose getting that experience? That is the very reason that the LTs OERS are masked...... so they DON'T wreck a career while learning.

You learned about the Army a Specialist and Sergeant most likely..... able to learn and not be excessively visible. Fresh LTs are still expected to lead and WILL have those "growing pains".... but cannot hide.

I will say I was never incompetent, but there was much I never could have learned without mentorship from all ranks. As a SSG....especially promotable, you are at a level where you can do of two things: use your experience to teach them about the military, or two use your experience to compromise their abilities to lead as you watch them drown.

The only way to teach about military life is to LIVE a military life. I am sure you did some stupid stuff when you were first starting your military career....but you survived. Why not allow others the same opportunity as you to guide them? Otherwise they'll just doa few years and get out. .... leaning to a revolving for of company grade officers that never develop beyond that.
V/R,
CPT Butler

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 2:10 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 14:10:25 -0500

In my opion the degree doesn't, but that young officers mentors do. A young officer should be mentored from two sides. On one hand, the more senior officers and on the other that officer's 1SG, platoon sergeant and squad leaders or NCOICs. A degree in organizational leadership does not equate to operational leadership; proper mentorship has a much higher success rate.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 2:14 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 14:14:23 -0500

I fit the mold, or you might consider I do, for an officer with a non-specific degree. My B.A. is in Women's Studies and my M.S. is in Special Education. When I tried for a direct commission into the Navy, I was told that I was too old and my degree was non-specific. Fair enough, I enlisted in the AF and then commissioned.

I agree with SGM Matthew Quick, we all still had to go through leadership education and training. I know some less than ideal officers will slip through the cracks, but the training is still there.

Leadership aside, even if I had a B.S. in something applicable to the logistics field, would that necessarily make me a good leader, SSG Private RallyPoint Member? I think that component depends on the individual and their personal leadership skills. You can very easily have an intelligent subject matter expert who is in no way equipped with the mentorship, leadership, and relational skills needed to serve as an officer.

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Feb 13 at 2015 3:23 PM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 15:23:22 -0500

I would imagine unless the Officer Corps starts requiring success as a prior service NCO as a requirement to attending OCS/ROTC, the military will continue to field newly-minted 2LTs who have to learn the Army the hard way.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Feb 13 at 2015 3:24 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 15:24:33 -0500

On the opposite end of this question, can you think of a degree that doesn't stress research? Since every new position is a new opportunity to learn and grow the degree doesn't matter IMO, so long as there is a demonstrated willingness to learn. Their performance in leadership training (ROTC, Service Academy, OCS, Officer Basic, ect...) matters more to me than the civilian subject of study in my opinion.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 3:55 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 15:55:53 -0500

Almost a year later and this thread has been revived.

I am impressed by the responses.

Thank You All.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 4:03 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 16:03:38 -0500

Other than in the medical field, there is no degree that will help you be a commissioned officer.

The dictionary definition of leadership is a person who guides or directs a group; ability to lead; an act or instance of leading; guidance; direction.
Not everyone is cut out to be a leader. You cannot force someone to change who they are or how they act. Just because a person is 'book smart' does not mean they would be a good leader.

Leadership is not something that can be taught in a book/school setting.

I do not know of any academic institution that could have prepared me to become an officer in the military. I went enlisted to officer and was extremely disappointed with the 'training' I received in BOLC as a newly commissioned officer. They teach regulations not leadership and barely touch on MDMP. I agree with everyone else that has recommended that NCOs step up and mentor newly commissioned individuals. There is so much more that can be learned from experience and part of mentorship is demonstrating leadership. Leadership is looking out for others, instructing them to make the best choice, and being the type of leader that others respect and rely on.

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Feb 13 at 2015 4:17 PM

LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 16:17:45 -0500

The reason West Point was created was to produce officers with the engineering background. Up until very recently, West Point only gave Science degrees, and now offers other degrees since they realized being an officer isn't about science anymore.

Political science, economics, and these type of majors help officers in today's type of warfare. I truly believe that the more diverse the experiences of someone, it can help in the decision making process.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 5:00 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 17:00:30 -0500

"I am noticing an increasing amount of mostly incompetent Officers joining the ranks."

The reason this sentence is grammatically incorrect is that "Officers" are plural and countable. Therefore, this sentence should read, "I am noticing an increasing number of mostly incompetent officers joining the ranks."

I also "like" how you randomly capitalize words because you think they denote importance or title.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 6:02 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 18:02:45 -0500

Do what I did and switch over then find it's not as easy as you think lol But seriously, a civilian degree will never equal to Military occupational experience and expertise unless you're medical(pretty much universal).

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 6:27 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 18:27:05 -0500

You know what I find to be very interesting, SSG Keith Fay?
That some junior and senior NCOs expect the young newly- minted 2LT to come with all the skills and knowledge.

Company-level NCOs didn't start off with on-the-job know-how. They were mentored and were shown right-from-wrong by those senior and more experienced then them. So, how then can the newly-minted 2LT acquire the same knowledge if the NCOs don't help out, just like they'd been helped when they were just starting out as Privates.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2015 9:31 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Feb 2015 21:31:15 -0500

I think the key is as SGM put it. Help teach. Help lead the leader. Colleges don't train leaders, and maturity is lacking amongst NCOs as frequently as the Os I've not noticed many officers in my units with that problem but when I have I've helped them. I had a 1LT in my last guard unit who was struggling to lead and gain the respect of her seniors. Instead of letting her flop in the wind, I helped her see how to resolve her problems and grow as a leader and an officer. Just because you're an E and they're an O doesn't mean you don't lead them along at times.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Feb 14 at 2015 12:31 AM

LTC Jason Mackay — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 00:31:42 -0500

This thread has been going a while. Well, what was the verdict? Was there a degree path to Leonidas like company grade leadership? Was there a correlation between degrees and specific branches? I believe the degree requirement for commissioning is not tied directly to a success/failure of platoon leaders. The services need officers. Officers are needed to lead the services from the tactical to operational to strategic levels. The military skills and decision making are grown in house. The degree is not a certification in that regard, it is a box check to get into a commissioning program. A bachelors degree, codified by law, became the universally accepted standard. It was selected for many reasons. I believe among them are: you can stick to something for four plus years; you can apply intellectual rigor to problems; you have the capability to learn a foreign body of knowledge and be conversant in it; the service would acquire someone with your skill set to be repurposed for needs of the service later on. As an example, I came from a blue collar neighborhood on the south side of Boston. I was a commercial fisherman before commissioning. I was branched Ordnance (maintenance) with my Civil Engineering degree that the Army paid for (75% anyway) with the intent of branching me Combat Engineer. Couple truths. The majority of engineering at company grade, isn't. It is mobility, counter mobility, survivability...not designing things. In those days, CSS got the left overs from combat arms. My semesters of Steel Design, Intro to Design, and Mechanics of Materials made me capable of understanding very technical welding and machining issues my Allied Trades shop was dealing with when I was a platoon leader and a shop officer. Growing up as the son of a mechanic helped me understand automotive-armament technical issues as a platoon leader and shop officer. Much later my civil engineering background helped me understand and prioritize public works projects as a Garrison Commander. Nothing prepared me to get scuffed up by my first Troop Commander, counsel my Platoon Sergeant, lead non-cadets for the first time, investigate my first FLIPL, deal with a couple shady NCOs, deal with a couple inflexible seniors, handle a few spouses from hell, deal with death, command a world wide organization etc. nothing would have. What made that all work, was the preparation I recieved from parents that held me to standards; teachers that cared about me; early leadership opportunities as an adolescent (scouting, JROTC, sports, etc); development in my commissioning source by officers and NCOs; development by all ranks as an Officer ( I learn from everyone- good and bad); hard work; and being myself, not trying to be something I am not. If you are not Audie Murphy (alThough he was not well liked either) , you should not try to be him. I am not a proponent for thou must be an NCO first mentality. I have seen many that are incredible officers. I have seen some not make the transition and try to be O3 squad leaders and alienate their NCOs.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2015 2:27 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 14 Feb 2015 14:27:13 -0500

I will weigh in on this with a bit of a measured response, because I am currently struggling a bit with the identity that we, as Army Engineers, hold and it has shaded my opinion on this topic a great deal.

I firmly believe that the strength of the Army lies in diversity. This is diversity in the greatest and most broad spectrum of the concept that you can imagine. Where we do lack diversity, there is usually a practical reason for it (such as certain medical, mental, moral, etc standards). Education is no different. There is not educational path to being a good leader, even though a solid education will most certainly bolster someone with leadership capabilities. When you have a wide variety of educational experience, you have a wide variety of theoretical and practical knowledge to call from which allows for a larger spectrum of possibilities in working to resolve the complexity in which we operate.

We can utilize CJTF-HOA as a prime example of how out of the box thinking is what is leading to success. We are primarily supporting the TCN warfighter and extending/supporting the LOEs through our M2M, HA, HCA, and other similar engagements. This is not a shoot, move, and communicate type operation here. We are able to help mitigate risks, support the DA effort, and further develop our military presence and influence over a strategic location by utilizing our minds, solid ideas, solid assessment, and quite a bit of innovation in strategy. We are not able to utilize typical military operations that would act as a show of force or anything which may come from an older playbook. This kind of operating is highly successful through diversity of experience, education, knowledge, and a certain adaptability which comes from being able to see things from more than just a militarily-shaded lens. It is interesting to hear conversations between Engineers, Logisticians, CA, MISO, JAG, and other people when addressing both short-term tactical issues and long-term strategic issues. Once you do, you can see how the diversity of the backgrounds, experiences, and education can really influence and shape the success of the mission. I am certain that GEN Petraeus and GEN Mattis would agree with this, especially after they shaped the new doctrine for COIN.

Due to this, I see how the diversity of degrees can be extremely value-added to the Army in the fluid and dynamic environments that we work in. This is not as much force-on-force as it is complete multispectrum operations across many locusts of impact.

I will say that I am glad to see a push for more STEM majors. This is valuable. While, we don't need to exceed a certain threshold with them, it brings a valuable, flexible technical ability to the table that can be molded. Everything is becoming more technical and having those that can look at it from that lens can have an amazing impact. I do wish that there were more extensive programs to assist those who are in technical fields (including E, WO, and O ranks) to gain the needed education if they do not already posses it. As an Engineer, I have a business degree and was well on my way to a MBA, but now that I am doing this full-time and have been exposed to the fact that we are not required to have an Engineering degree but must be able to function as though we do in many circumstances. Every other Engineer-related Officer here at CJTF-HOA from the other services is required to have an Engineering degree. I will admit, it would be overkill for most operations and combat engineering assignments, but when you are assigned to more technical assignments, the lack of education can create a challenge. Right now, it comes down to a level of personal and professional pride if none-technically educated Soldiers choose to pursue education in their field utilizing their own benefits or taking care of the expenses on their own. For most Enlisted and Warrant Officers, they obviously chose their field or at least chose from what was available that they qualified for. For Officers, we don't often choose our field. This can create some knowledge gaps for many. I personally think that there should be programs to assist in bridging that gap. I have been weighing the pros and cons of working on the undergraduate prerequisites needed for a Masters of Engineering in comparison to completing a MBA. It's a tough call. My professional pride and desire to be the SME, especially when I represent the Army to other services or the US to other countries, is vital to me. However, I also know the impact that a solid MBA can have against most of my operational and leadership assignments. It's a tough call to make and it's definitely a delicate balance when you know that the education's value has increased dramatically but you must cover the expenses and time on your own. This is where I can see that we could improve dramatically. Similar programs could also help drive that young E-4 12T to pick up a STEM degree and contribute more as a NCO, WO, or O. That would increase our technical capacity as an Army which I think is something we need to strategically look at for long-term growth and capacity.

Response by LTC Jason Strickland made Aug 12 at 2015 6:24 PM

LTC Jason Strickland — Wed, 12 Aug 2015 18:24:57 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member, here's an excellent op-ed in the Wall Street Journal about this topic. While I believe commissioned officers do need a degree, the author makes some valid points.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/military-officers-dont-need-college-degrees [login to see]

Military Officers Don’t Need College Degrees

In The Wall Street Journal, Benjamin Luxenberg writes that military officers don’t need colleges degrees—there are other ways for candidates to gain the skills they need.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2015 1:55 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Aug 2015 13:55:54 -0400

Although I, as former senior NCO would prefer not to go commisioned, unless it was for Warrant Officer (who I believe never should have been Commisione), there were/are some great NCO's that would make good Officers. Their degree would come from the school of hard knocks.

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made May 1 at 2017 8:36 PM

SGT Suraj Dave — Mon, 01 May 2017 20:36:39 -0400

Professional Officers aside (Doctors, Lawyers, Nurses, Engineers, etc..), what degree would this be? Most of the officers I served under.... and I hate saying this.... didn't have good degrees. Most of them were liberal arts or humanities... with that said, from my observations, officers don't utilize their college degrees in the Army. My officers (the ones who lead; not the doctors and PA's I worked under) job duties seemed to consist of writing memos, making power points, conducting equipment layouts and every once in a while during deployment "Guest star" on patrols. I was enlisted when I was in the Army. Today I'm only 12 credits shy of my BS in Public Health. The only difference between 23 year old SGT Dave, and 26 year old college senior Suraj Dave, is the ability to write lab reports. If I were to go to OCS (Never going to do it, I enjoy being a civilian) as a college graduate or SGT, I don't believe it would make a difference., intellectually speaking.

Response by PO2 Marc Gunter made Jul 5 at 2017 1:15 PM

PO2 Marc Gunter — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 13:15:59 -0400

I don't know about a specific degree to be commissioned but their degree should have somehow prepared them for the position they're put into. When I was a young sailor, we had an ensign (O1) put into the position of Main Propulsion Assistant, basically, in charge of the ship's propulsion division. This, in itself, is not a problem. The problem came from the fact that his degree was in marine biology...the guy knew absolutely NOTHING about engineering or anything mechanical. He lasted less than three months onboard before being reprimanded and transferred to a desk job in the base personnel office in a quite undesirable location overseas.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Jul 5 at 2017 2:01 PM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 14:01:06 -0400

How much competence do you expect out of someone with a couple of months experience? I am frankly amazed that we turn out as many good officers as we do, and I haven't been active since 1995 and it was just as true then. We take young men and women with a degree, give BCT and OCS or a couple of years of ROTC, and expect that to make them leaders. My opinion of what makes them a success or a failure is if they luck into a top notch Platoon Sgt and have competent senior leaders to mentor them. It's the Platoon Sergeant's and Company Commander's job to mold that gullible little mind into a useful officer.
I was lucky, not only had I grown up with an E8 father, but I'm a grass to brass officer that had enough enlisted time to start developing some feeling for what I thought it took to command. I also lucked out and have two outstanding platoon sergeants that didn't baby sit me, but would give me that gentle nudge or kick in the ass if I were screwing it up. Leadership is learned and it's learned by experience.
Maybe you should start considering what you can do to train those individuals in the right direction.

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Jul 5 at 2017 5:26 PM

Sgt Wayne Wood — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 17:26:05 -0400

What degree preps you for Infantry?

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Jul 5 at 2017 9:14 PM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Wed, 05 Jul 2017 21:14:54 -0400

Culinary Arts. That way you can ensure your people are being well fed. As to war fighting and leadership, I'll entrust that to the military training and schools.