should officers have to serve as enlisted first?

2014-01-08T00:25:01-05:00

what are your thoughts about brand new officers? Would they make better leaders if they enlisted first and had to make the rank of SSG or SFC before they get commissioned?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2014 1:04 AM

2014-01-08T01:04:31-05:00

I am not sure I would use the term "should". My personal belief is that being enlisted and then and NCO before becoming an Officer makes you a better Officer. The reason being is, you have a better respect and understanding of what the Enlisted guys and gals are going through. But, that being said, I have had O's who were NCOs prior and were absolutely toxic. And I have also had O's straight out of college who I would go to hell and back for without a bit of hesitation. So, while being an NCO USUALLY makes for a better Officer, it isn't always the case. Is the percentage higher? Sure, in my opinion. But it is really all about the individual Officer in question. Being Enlisted doesn't give you carte blanche to be a good Officer.

Response by SPC Gary Basom made Jan 8 at 2014 5:40 AM

2014-01-08T05:40:21-05:00

MOST definitely yes. An officer should have to learn what an enlisted man has to do and go through. OCS candidates are enlisted aren't they? Why should they be any different?

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2014 2:17 PM

2014-03-13T14:17:52-04:00

I've seen tons of officers from all commissioning sources over 18 years. INITIALLY the prior enlisted officer is more prepared for life in the Army. That does not translate to leadership potential. It's a pretty even mix. By the time an officer reaches the rank of CPT, that "advantage" a prior enlisted officer had is pretty much gone (unless he transitioned as a SSG or SFC...which I have seen). By the time an officer is a field grade, it's completely nulified. Frankly, you don't want all sources of commissioning from one place (Westpoint, ROTC, OCS, or direct commission). It creates more opportunities for group think and if we are looking for diversity and life experience, then we need all kinds...not just one kind.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Mar 21 at 2014 12:01 AM

2014-03-21T00:01:34-04:00

I don't think making it mandatory is the right answer however, you can see a difference in the officers that were previously enlisted.  Some have a tough time transitioning over to the dark side - they want to be a NCO, others bring resentment with them over to the commissioned side - that is not good either. I think the most critical part is the development of that young officer by his/her Platoon Sergeant.  The source of commission is not as important as the individual values and individual desire to serve.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 12:02 AM

2014-03-21T00:02:16-04:00

Not arguing pros or cons on your idea; however grandfathering in all current officers would create a hell of a double standard.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 12:16 AM

2014-03-21T00:16:30-04:00

PFC Lavagnino,

I was prior enlisted before getting my commission through ROTC. It is the strength of the person not many times where they came from. A good example, GEN Colin Powell, GEN Norman Schwarzkopf, and GEN George Patton where non-prior service and came from West Point and ROTC. I doubt anyone can find these many faults with these officers and they were not prior enlisted. I have worked with officers who were prior service that can't turn off the NCO function and have issues. Also something like 80% of all officers come from ROTC so the OCS/Academy are not viable options. Hope this helps.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Mar 21 at 2014 9:22 AM

2014-03-21T09:22:43-04:00

No, officers should not have to enlist prior to commissioning. Officers/Commanders and enlisted have different roles and responsibilities...many responsibilities far greater than that of an average Soldier. I truly believe 4 years at a service academy prepares leaders to lead (with the addition of a strong NCO mentor at first assignment)...they're not suppose to know or do the jobs of enlisted. "Officers of my unit will have maximum time to accomplish their duties; they will not have to accomplish mine."

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 12:36 PM

2014-03-21T12:36:11-04:00

I think they should at least have to make E-6/Squad/Section leader first. This will give them the knowledge of what actually takes place and is needed to get a job done.  How many officers have you run into that take no regard for what the NCO advises them of and they do it thier way becasue "they haver a degree, or because they're an officer."?  If they were to be enlisted first, then a Platton Leader will already know what needs to be done and is needed. How many officers have you met that made it to the rank of E6-E7 and switched becasue thier officers had failed them.  You can always pick out an officer that made it to the NCO ranks bbefore being Commisioned.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2014 12:49 PM

2014-03-21T12:49:12-04:00

I  think being enlisted first makes for a better more well rounded Officer. But it should not be a requirement. Yes having a PL who used to be a SGT is a great asset, and it makes a better PL (in most cases). But that PL is in the begining of his career as an officer. In the long run Officers are asked to do things and take on greater responsibilities that overshadow their time as a SPC-SSG. Their experiences as enlisted are not required or an asset when they are not in leadership positions. PL/company commander/BN commander. Makes sense? As NCOs we are always in leadership positions, officers not so much, they spend most of their time in stratigic operations, where their time as a junior Soldier or NCO is generally irelivent. 

Response by CMSgt Mark Schubert made Jul 9 at 2014 11:47 AM

2014-07-09T11:47:30-04:00

I posted a similar question "Do prior enlisted service members make better officers?" and I think that being prior enlisted certainly helps contribute to the overall leadership effectiveness for the officer.

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/do-prior-enlisted-service-members-make-better-officers

I do not think there should be any requirement for all officers to be enlisted and certainly no requirement to be any specific rank. There are many, many great officers who never were prior enlisted.

Do prior enlisted service members make better officers? | RallyPoint

I've talked with many officers throughout my career. I've noticed most have the ability to effectively lead and guide enlisted members. Most (not all) of the officers I've seen who are truly among the best are prior enlisted. Do you think being enlisted contributes to the leadership effectiveness of officers?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2014 7:54 PM

2014-08-29T19:54:20-04:00

Well, everyone here refers newly commissioned officers as "privates with a degree." By the time they are 1LT to almost CPT, they learn to be leaders. Well, most of them do, unless they are naturals or prior-service, they lead at the rank of 2LT.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Aug 29 at 2014 8:06 PM

2014-08-29T20:06:31-04:00

IMHO the reason why prior service officers have an advantage over non-prior service is that a) they are a bit older and more mature and b) know how to navigate the pitfalls of Army bureaucracy. NCO and Officer roles are different, experience in the former does not guarantee success at the latter. And as LTC Horvath stated, any advantage prior service brings is usually gone in about 3-4 years.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2014 11:36 PM

2014-08-29T23:36:03-04:00

NO, it would put a strain on the Officer Corps and it would hurt the NCO corps by taking their talent. I was a SSG and I learned that just because I was prior enlisted doesn't make me a better officer. It made me a better leader but they are not the same. I have also seen where being a NCO has hurt an officer where they can't step away from being an NCO.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2014 11:39 PM

2014-08-29T23:39:45-04:00

Hmm, this is tricky to answer. I was enlisted for eight years before I went to OCS. I would say it helps, but overall... no. In being enlisted, I see the boundary differences that SGM Matthew Quick had mentioned. At times, I think it can work against an Officer and at times, it does. Sometimes, you'll see an Officer who becomes the "operator" because of past experiences, but then inspires those because they see that the Officer knows more stuff in terms of hands on knowledge. I learned from being a PL, XO, and S6 that an Officer has to focus on the leadership aspect of things. If the OIC turns into the NCOIC, it creates problems (and it happens, I have to push myself away at times). I use to think as a PVT that the LT is just sitting on the computer doing nothing, but in reality... is getting blasted by a BN CDR on a daily basis. An Officer has a harder time in recovering because as a E1-E4, we had time to learn and mess up. As an Officer, you receive an evaluation from Day 1. Basically when you become an Officer, everything that you know is thrown out of the window because you have to learn everything that is required to be an Officer. One thing I can tell you is that I have the greatest respect for all the CSMs because the highest rank I got to enlisted was an E6.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2014 11:45 PM

2014-08-29T23:45:10-04:00

I wouldn't suggest making an NCO rank a prerequisite to being an officer. As CPT Private RallyPoint Member mentioned, this would act as a drain on the NCO Corps. However, I do believe that having at least a year or two of enlisted time gives an officer a well-rounded view of things, and helps him or her understand their troops better. It also tends to give your average fresh new 2LT a higher level of respect for their sergeants, because they've seen them as leaders first.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Aug 30 at 2014 1:32 PM

2014-08-30T13:32:23-04:00

I felt there was always a 'unique" admiration for leaders who knew what it was like to have served in "the trenches." Mustang officers have a bond with the enlisted troops, especially at the lower levels, because we know how enlisted training goes and have an idea of what our leaders experienced. Very few enlisted can safely discuss the training that occurs in the service academies because we have no common ground. That can further create the "wall" between officers and enlisted. Does it help to have an enlisted background? Of course it helps, but mostly in the beginning of an officer's career. By the time the platoon leader position is accomplished, our beloved Mustangs are deeply embedded within the corporation and are learning things that weren't well known as enlisted (if at all). Officers already have more training than we did before day one of entering the first duty assignment. Their focus needs to be on leadership and not our likership.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2014 6:17 PM

2014-08-30T18:17:53-04:00

Prior enlisted time can be very beneficial to new PLT Ldr, Co. XO and Co. Cdr. They've been there, know the hardships and also know what it was like to never be listened to, even when their thoughts ...contributed to the plan, work schedule, etc. Once they've made Major and higher they are out of the company, platoon, squad operational level and thought process. Hopefully they will never forget where they came from and make sure those Soldiers and young NCOs are the ones that make it happen, that carry out every plan and idea they come up with.

I have also seen where the prior enlisted time resulted in a piss poor Platoon Leader also. Fortunately this is definitely in the minority. I was a PSG at Fort Campbell when the Cdr/1SG called me in and said, you're getting 2LT Daggot (that was his name). I did not have a Plt Leader. He was coming over from another Platoon. First words out of my mouth were WTF....and why? 1SG said, Bn Cdr said, put Daggot "under" you, you would either train him or kill him in the process! I was immediately thinking a formlating a plan for the latter.

Anyway, he made several DA decisions that came back to haunt him and he was out of the Army approximately 8 months later. This is a singular event and rare, but it can happen. I've seen some prior enlisted and NCOs who became outstanding officers and went on to a great career though they retired at O5 and O6.

The current commissioning system we have, West Point, ROTC, OCS is a good system as it brings in talent from different walks of life and background and not from just one source. We've all also seen the West Pointers who were outstanding officers and those who we wanted to take out behind the motor pool for some corrective training. If they all came from one source we would have more like that.

So the current system works about as good as I beleive it can. We have plenty that needs to be fixed in the Army already (always do and always will). For once lets not mess with a system that isn't broke and works 90% of the time.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Aug 31 at 2014 4:05 AM

2014-08-31T04:05:45-04:00

Some of the better OIC's I've served under were Mustangs. Some of the worst were boot butterbars.

It shouldn't be mandatory though.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2014 2:25 AM

2014-09-18T02:25:13-04:00

I don't think should required, now I might be biased since I never was one. My rationale is this. I have seen at least in my experience a mixed bag on either side. IMO just being enlisted does not mean that person translates to a better officer. Someone who is prior is prior E maybe able to emphasize with the junior enlisted better since they were one. That does not mean that an astute new Lt is not willing to learn. It is up to the individual how they want to proceed with dealing with people and having good human relations.

I have known some bad prior E officers, who felt some sense of entitlement that they have been there and done that and were too cool for school. I have met some really good ones, who realized that they were in new realm of leadership roles. It seemed to me out of my counterparts that made good prior E officers were dudes that were enlisted for a while made E5 or higher. I attribute a lot of their performance as officers in the sense that there was an age component to it. Take someone who was a E6 and did 8 years before entering ROTC. By the time the commissioned they were almost 30 so they have almost a decade of life experiences behind them that the kids out of college didn't. I think that attributes a great deal. Someone who was a sharp airman and gets picked up for commissioning program but was was only in the AF for a few years, does not know all of the dynamics of being an enlisted leader since most of their time would have been in the training pipe line.

I think its hard to make a fast rule saying this should be done first. I do think is that officer candidates should be vetted better. 12 years aqo the flood gates were open and our standards were lower. I think a lot goes to the unit commanders. A good commander will try to groom their new Lts to learn the ropes on how to be good officers to the troops.

Response by SFC Traveling Citizen made Aug 11 at 2015 1:32 AM

2015-08-11T01:32:42-04:00

http://wh.gov/i52uo Officers should have a year as an E5 before commissioning

Remove double standards and punishments for General Officers, hold them to same standard as...

A "GREAT" leader as a result of utilizing The Whistleblower Act, was a victim of retaliation in the U.S. Army and malicious prosecution in 2014. Serving his country for more than a decade and now those sacrifices has been overshadowed by a wrongful conviction prompt by reprisal for informing his Congressional leader of wrongful activities and misconduct.