Should our officers be enlisted first?

Cpl Andrew Tucker — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 17:15:53 -0400

Probably have been asked before, but I'm going to ask it again. Since the Marines have announced the first female F35C pilot, Erie, Pennsylvania native 1st Lt. Catherine Stark (Semper Fi, Lt!) a thought crossed my mind again. Bear with me, my mind works weirdly.

Should our officers be enlisted first? I know this is a Heinleinian way of thinking, but it's rare in my experience being in and around the military (my dad retired after 30 as a full bird) that you can find a "hot-shit" junior officer who was not prior service. In fact, you can find plenty of officers who are absolutely horrible at their jobs in the O1-O3 arena. What makes a college degree the deciding choice in saying, "That young man/woman is going to be a leader." As far as I can tell, with the exception of military science classes, there isn't any degree that teaches leadership. True leadership is learned and earned, not taught. In fact, this was the first thing the SNCOs told us during Corporal's Course. I personally think that you should be at least a junior NCO/PO before you try your hand at being an officer.

I'm willing to entertain all thoughts on this matter.

***UPDATE: I want to thank everyone for their responses and anecdotal evidence. Unfortunately, I believe that this will always be an anecdotal conversation. I especially appreciate the senior leadership, enlisted and commissioned, that has responded. As a former junior NCO who has gone into management in the civilan world on multiple occassions, I have had the chance to look back and wonder how the various SNCOs and Zeroes I have worked with/for (there's a marked difference in those to quantifiers, I firmly believe) would handle whatever situation I'm in.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2019 5:22 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 17:22:21 -0400

Simple "wish/answer" yes it would be awesome for them to be.

The best officers I've worked for and with have been prior enlisted. However, I have also worked for and with officers that do not have enlisted time and are also great. More of a person problem not a prior enlisted problem ha.

But having that be a requirement would be extremely tough to put into practice and would never make it in the books.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Aug 8 at 2019 5:29 PM

SGT Dave Tracy — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 17:29:10 -0400

I would lean that way, generally speaking. I even considered transitioning from Enlisted to Officer myself, but decided staying Enlisted and becoming an NCO was better for me. That said, there's no guarantee that prior Enlisted will make the best Officer. Anecdotally speaking, the best O I ever had was fresh off the block; the worst--by FAR the worst--was former E6. Your mileage may vary.

Response by COL Gary Gresh made Aug 8 at 2019 5:30 PM

COL Gary Gresh — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 17:30:33 -0400

Well. Interesting concept - but unsustainable in the real world. While my first knee jerk thought was yes it would be nice for all officers to be enlisted first - but making the enlisted ranks the complete training ground for all officers fails to see the fact that we need superb lifelong NCOs. The NCO is the backbone of the army and they should actually “train” the officer corps. My NCOs In Vietnam actually saved my life with their keen insights and warnings. I do think all officers should have to have started in the combat arms as lieutenants as too many support officers have little idea what the combat arms goes through. That being said, the officer corps must have EDUCATION and few people in the volunteer army generation want to postpone their college education for a foxhole and climb up the OCS ladder. The present commissioning sources allow for all people to become an officer. Yes there are some shitty young lieutenants but frankly I blame their NCOs for that. They are not mentoring their officers. A really good NCO can perform miracles on creating good officers. Get your education and apply for a commission and the army and the corporation worlds will welcome you aboard. Everyone in the army should be a mentor and trainer. Even a private can mentor a slick sleeve. Step up to your potential. Just my thoughts.

Response by Sgt George Kinyaevsky made Aug 8 at 2019 5:34 PM

Sgt George Kinyaevsky — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 17:34:39 -0400

From my personal experience, the best officers I've served under were prior-enlisted; which is not to say that I haven't served under great officers who were not. So based off of that, I would agree with some sort of prior enlisted time as a requirement to commission. However, this assumes that prior-enlistment time is always beneficial and creates great leaders, which is simply false: how many SNCO's have you known that should've never pinned on a rocker, much less crossed rifles under their stripe? The benefit to enlisted time, for an officer I believe, is to see from the perspective of their subordinates. To go through what they go through and not be fed from a silver spoon as soon as they're out of OCS and the Service Academies serve that purpose.
Here are a couple of thoughts I have:
1) Sure there's the lack of experience in a particular field from a professional standpoint which is why a lot of junior officers get hate, but the same comes from a PFC who just got to the fleet, there needs to be time to develop. The education in this case really helps people learn how to think critically which is necessary of all officers. The education isn't meant to instill leadership ability which is why officers are selected and the process is competitive (obviously we know people slip through the cracks).
2) If we're for mandatory enlisted time, how long? I would argue that sometimes even one enlistment ins't enough to develop a brand new NCO into a great leader. So even if we stay at one enlistment, we'd have to push back max age to commission as not every MOS would have the opportunity to go to school while in service (grunts for example) which would lead to some retention problems as people would be hesitant to come back.
3) I guess my main argument is that this point assumes that prior-enlisted time builds leadership, which isn't necessarily true - the biggest pro of enlisted time would be the opportunity to experience what your subordinates experience, which again isn't necessarily a requirement for good leadership.

I apologize if my input isn't as linear as I would like it to be, I just wanted to contribute to the conversation to get it going as I'm also curious about other people's perspectives.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2019 6:12 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 18:12:38 -0400

I think people off of the street can bring added value and a different perspective. Therefore, we should always have that open for premium officer candidates. I believe that we need to open the bulk of our officer opportunities for existing NCOs though. I understand the role of the NCO and Officer but people who have experience in both paths have a broader understanding of the effects of their planning. Plus we will create a stronger, more committed force by retaining the best talent because they have room to grow and progress from Private all the way to 4 Star.

What about the Enlisted leadership? What will happen then? Remember that not everybody desires to become an officer. Many people are completely happy with remaining Enlisted and excel at it from a leadership standpoint. Will there be some sort of shake-up? Yes, but turbulence early on will create space for a better organization in the future.

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Aug 8 at 2019 6:13 PM

LTC Kevin B. — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 18:13:35 -0400

You can get a degree in Leadership. Plus, many other degree programs teach leadership, either as stand-alone courses or as content within courses. That's actually a major research area too.

To answer your larger question though, I don't think all officers should first serve as enlisted. I think variation in background and development is good. The military shouldn't be a cookie-cutter organization.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Aug 8 at 2019 6:27 PM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 18:27:59 -0400

I've said a ood deal about what you're saying on here, and can only relate what happened with myself and my next younger brother to try to illusrate. In the main, I learned, in pretty much the hardest fashion possible, in many ways, that to a very real extent, what you say has more than a fair core of truth to it. I'd been Army ROTC 3 yrs while undergrad, though I'd obv thought many times about going in before that after high school; I'd very nearly gone USCG electronics tech (ET), had taken the exam, passed, and was quite seriously thinking about it. I also saw SUNY Maritime College, I've worked with and/or known many who went there, I very nearly applied there (I kick myself quite regularly that I didn't, I assure you). My next younger brother went USMMA Kings Point; he'd also gotten AFROTC at Perdue, though when he got the academy, our Dad, who'd pretty much programmed us from infancy to eventually go in, convinced him to go that way, instead of the AFROTC way. I think he might've gotten a cpl of other chances, though I can't recall now where they'd been at the moment. The Army ROTC unit I was in, which no longer exists, trained a good deal at West Point, formations, barracks, and dining hall with the cadets, the orienteering range, the rappelling cliff, the obstacle course, I saw a good deal of the place, I only learned later that the PMS of our program, as with the heads of all ROTCs, could actually nominate for there, all heads of ROTC programs can do that, for their own svc academies, that's just one of those things you don't typically find out till too late. I hadn't known about the various academy prep schools; had I known, I might well have tried for them, as well, possibly. I sprained an ankle just as I'd passed my 2-mi run time at Ft. Hamilton on their parade ground track, which we also used, as well as going to Ft. Dix for the rifle range as well. We were also taken on sevl trips to other posts, esp once to Aberdeen Proving Ground to see the engrg research facilities, which I did find of very real interest, as I'd wanted pure and/or applied research, not a combat arms branch, I wear glasses, and never thought of flight, though later on, rather than pilot/aviator, the idea of nav/WSO did cross my mind sevl times, as I'll explain. I wasn't allowed to go to Ft. Bragg for the junior summer camp due to the ankle sprain causin my run time to go back above limit, I was dropped from the program, which I obv found crushin, of course, esp as my next younger brother had already gotten into USMMA. So, when I got my initial bach in engrg (electrical, or EE), I tried once again, instead of staying there for a 2nd bach in bio and doing what I should've done, which was to have tried for dental or med, as I'd really also had a yen to be on the purely clinical side; I had way too many disparate ambitions, all disjointed, as well as disconnected, thought I knew what I was doing, and, as turned out to be the case, didn't know bupkas, I'm afraid, which is, ultimately, why I'm total perm disabled now (very, very long, agravating, tiring story I won't bore all of you with here). I tried all of the other svcs, incl going NFO for Navy, for back seat in aircraft, NUPOC for naval nuc school (a good friend of mine actually interviewed with Adm Rickover for that, I never was allowed, he chaned his mind after Adm Rickover was willing to take him, he decided it wasn't for him). I didn't retry Army, I then tried both Navy nuc 6-yr enlisted, to try to go for Navy OCS after I'd get in, as I had the BSEE at that point. I also looked at USAF OTS, and ALMOST got it right; I didn't listen to the SSgt recruiter for USAF OTS, which was at Lackland back then, now at Maxwell, obv. He EXPLICITLY told me I WAS IN THE WRONG OFC, to go out, down the hall, turn left, and speak with the USAF Biomed Sci Corps recruiter, as, I'd learned later, THEY use bioengineers, which was what I'd REALLY wanted. Needless to say, I was a complete, utter, pluperfect moron, didn't listen, and managed to TOTALLY bollix the whole thing up, in a way, and to such an extent, that it ultimately amazed even God, to be candid about it (you guys wouldn't believe the whole thing, even IF I told you all of it, my wife and I lived through it, as did my friends and family, and I STILL don't believe it, all these yrs later). My next younger brother at USMMA, I commissioned him when he went USNR after finishing; he saw his own share of aggravation, error, and heartache as well. I ultimately had to apply twice to USAF OTS, as one of the Army ROTC faculty from the program I'd been in said to not take me; USAF was short on EEs then, but for line, NOT biopmed, as I SHOULD'VE done. I had to reaplly and appeal; I was taken. ?Had I not been, I'd have marched into the Navy office near us, most likely, to have gone nuc 6-yr enlisted, as I'd said, as a friend of mine I knew later also did, he ultimately had his own aggravation doing it, and went 6-yr electronics instead, he wasn't allowed to have finished the nuc enlisted program. I had to go through the USAF OTS at Lackland twice, nearly got sent home, was allowed to finish, quite literally by the grace of God, and then realized I'd COMPLETELY bollixed up where I was going, and who I'd be with, all too late to change it at all, plus, nobody cared one whit, which I quite literally needed to have my head pounded into concrete pavement, more times than I can count, to get me to accept reality, and, eventually adjust, albeit, as turned out, way too late (another very long, very tiring story). Another friend went Navy OCS, he had his own aggravation, he wasn't prior enlisted, either. My best friend in USAF had been AFROTC at VMI, he got out eventually, he told me what his training was like. Now, I could tell you way more, however, the reason I told you all of that was this: There was a guy in the next class after the one I'd finished with, I'd seen his bio awhile ago, he finished as an O-10, getting AN ABSOLUTELY PERFECT, FLAWLESS CAREER, in the main, as I reflected on the matter, BECAUSE he'd been prior enlisted. I knew many at USAF OTS who'd been prior enlisted, from all svcs; one guy I'd met even had Navy enlisted sub dolphins on his USAF blues, the onlt time I ever saw that. However, my point is, those who'd been prior enlisted VERY clearly knew what was expected, VERY clearly knew reality, VERY clearly outperformed those of us who hadn't been, in the main, from all I'd seen. My brother hadn't been prior, his aggravation was different from mine, however, he had the four full years at USMMA to adjust, plus, his personality differs significantly from mine, my best friend in USAF also had four years at VMI to adjust, as well. For all those reasons, in the main, then, I do basically agree with you, however, not entirely quite for the reasons you'd posed. Your logic has a great deal of validity to it; however, I'd rephrase the rationale for so insisting on what you'd suggest. In any really large, highly bureaucratized organization, like any of the svcs, and they're all, by and large, quite similar in that regard, there's a certain level of acclimatization needed, in order to learn not merely the day-to-day intricacies of what actually goes on, and what is actually expected, but, and this is the MOST important part, how to actually function in the role. One guy when I'd got where I was assigned, a junior airman, actually got into USAFA while I'd been there; the O-9 of my installation when I got there had been a B-17 tail gunner in WW2, who'd gotten into West Point. I could cite numerous other examples where being prior wasn't needed, or requisite, I worked with many such company graders; however, I DID note that, amon those who WERE prior, that they had, for the most part, learned to function in the role, in a way I never did, as I'd said, until way, way too late. Thus, as I'd said before, in the main, I do basically agree with you, for the most part; there are always oing to be exceptions, MacArthur hadn't been, Eisenhower hadn't, Bradley hadn't Nimitz, Halsey, and many other really famous ones hadn't. Many of those I knew hadn't been, though all of those I mention here, as well as many I also knew, had been academy or equiv grads, which ave them time and rior with which to acclimate...in all, however, having been prior enlisted would, most definitely, have helped me, that I know now, after yrs of retrospection, as I'd said, just as it would've helped my brother, as well as my Navy OCS friend...if you'd wanna chat more about the whole thin, just lemme know, I just figured you'd find the thoughts I'd given here of use...in the main, as I'd said, I do agree with a good deal of what you'd said, barring such exceptions. I did see such exceptions at USAF OTS, there were those there who hadn't been prior, however, they'd had families who'd guided them, their parents had been senior enlisted, warrant, or commissioned, which clearly helped them, from all they related to me...however, in the main, most definitely, being prior enlisted most definitely does help, and would've helped not just me, but my brother and Navy OCS friend as well, most definitely.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 8 at 2019 7:13 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 19:13:16 -0400

At the minimum officers need to get dirty and muddy with the soldiers and NCOs.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2019 7:27 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 19:27:43 -0400

No I don’t think they should. What would the reasoning be as to why they would need to be enlisted first?

Response by SPC Nancy Greene made Aug 8 at 2019 8:33 PM

SPC Nancy Greene — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 20:33:33 -0400

I entered the Army as an Enlisted E-3 due to a college degree. I was promoted to E-4 after four months of active duty. My plan was OCS and AIRBORNE. However, I broke my anterior and posterior pelvic bone in Basic. It took over five months to accurately diagnose my condition. I decided to stay on active duty even though OCS and AIRBORNE were out of the question. I intentionally went into the Army as Enlisted because I did NOT want to be a book-smart Officer. I worked for now Metroid Officers who would have been MUCH better at their jobs if their college degree didn’t give them their commission. I think our officers would be much better leaders if they REALLY knew how it felt to be Enlisted. Basically, I DO agree with you!

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2019 8:45 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 20:45:08 -0400

Good question and I know I've thought about it before. And again. A couple more times after that.
It would be nice but it would be a rough transition I'm sure. I've seen some of the best Officers that were prior enlisted up to E-7 and they were my company commanders, they were my platoon leaders, they were the ones you could relate to as a struggling new NCO or lower enlisted. They understood the various struggles faced through a mission and frequently planned around it.
Sure if I'm alongside a new Lt and they pull rank, of course I'll comply but I've had too many rough interactions with young and new Lts without prior experience who decide to throw rank over experience.
Personally I would like to spend the last few years of my career as an officer so I can experience more and help soldiers in another manner.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2019 9:00 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 21:00:21 -0400

On average perhaps they do make better leaders initially. However after years of leadership positions things can equal out.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2019 9:28 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 21:28:59 -0400

A very good question but being enlisted prior to becoming an officer doesn’t necessarily build great officers. Yes, by serving as enlisted prior to commissioning does give the officer-to-be a great understanding of what the soldiers they will one day lead, an in-depth, first hand view of what enlisted life is all about but that doesn’t make an officer. Young officers are trained by NCOs, taught by their commanders, and put through the fire by Field Grade officers. The combination of this training is what makes a great officer. Personally I am on my 6th 2LT and I would rather sleep outside naked during a Fort Drum snowstorm than fail to train my lieutenants on what it means to lead soldiers and be responsible for the answers you are to provide the commanders above them. There’s nothing like a fresh lieutenant coming to the unit all bright eyed and eager to be superstar. Those are the ones you can mold to be more than an officer. Those are ones who are molded to be leaders and are the officers who I would follow into combat.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2019 9:29 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 21:29:02 -0400

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Aug 8 at 2019 9:33 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 21:33:07 -0400

"As far as I can tell, with the exception of military science classes, there isn't any degree that teaches leadership."
I actually have a Masters of Science in Leadership, and am actively pursuing my PhD in a Leadership field.

All that said, the question of whether commissioned officers should be enlisted first depends on what you want out of your commissioned officer corps.

Generally speaking, enlisted are taught to be tactical and eventually trained to be operational level leaders. Officers lean more towards the operational and strategic, and the baseline training is tailored as such. However, as it stands we have parallel paths, with distinct requirements to enter each. One of the biggest is age (because college is usually 4 years). If we want all officers to start as enlisted first, we actually create a disadvantage for those who want to be officers, since they will start 4 years behind their peers (base enlisted can join at 18~) or have a split focus (due to educational requirements).

Using the USMC, since I am most familiar with the promotion goals:
The USMC expects Marines to pick up Cpl at "about" the 4 year mark, therefore anyone who joins fresh out of highschool will likely have a 6+ year headstart on those who go to college first, assuming that the requirement is to be an NCO/PO prior to APPLYING for commission (which is generally done on FY basis for most programs). So you will have very junior NCOs competing against very senior NCOs (below the SNCO level) creating some conflicting systemic forces. This is before, you add in the idea of getting recommendations from the Chain of Command as opposed to using a baseline "Recruiting/Accession" model.

Response by MSgt Gerald Orvis made Aug 8 at 2019 10:36 PM

MSgt Gerald Orvis — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 22:36:48 -0400

The officers I knew who'd been enlisted fell into two classes: Those who were great leaders but didn't forget where they came from and let their NCOs do their jobs, and those who came from the Captain Bligh School of Leadership - the worst. The officers who came through enlisted ranks in the Marine Corps were either warrant officers or Limited Duty Officers. I didn't know any who'd been enlisted, got out and then went officer through ROTC or one of the military academies, except for one female Navy officer who had been a sergeant of Marines before she went to college and ROTC. I never let her hear the end of that. As to the officers who'd been commissioned through the Naval Academy or college ROTC, I found the Academy officers generally thought they been taught enough leadership there and kept their distance from their NCOs and men. The ROTC officers were okay, for the most part - they knew they had a lot to learn and listened to their NCOs, which worked well as long as it was handled the right way, away from the men. Personally, I think the system the services have now for acquiring officers is just fine - plenty of diversity and opportunity for the NCOs to earn their paychecks by training junior officers as well as taking care of their people.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2019 11:04 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 23:04:43 -0400

Yes!!!!!

Response by SSG Lyle O'Rorke made Aug 8 at 2019 11:10 PM

SSG Lyle O'Rorke — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 23:10:26 -0400

I would say those who have attended an ROTC program or an academy have had the equivalent of a couple years of military experience but those who are just going OCS straight from the street should probably be required to serve a couple years (even just a 2 year commitment) as an enlisted member before being sent to their OCS course. Make it a requirement for the OCS course so that they have had time to experience and learn from the service.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Aug 9 at 2019 12:55 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 00:55:55 -0400

Yes... But not necessairly for a long time. If they are following a traditional commissioning source (I.e. ROTC, OCS), then 6 months as a PFC (and they aren't allowed to tell anyone - even their CO) to understand life as a Private. Then transfer to a different unit (like different Brigade, not just different Company) on post. If they are green to gold or coming from a service academy, then straight to a butter bar. If they are direct commission, then keep it how it is, with whatever weird MOS-specific rules that direct commission has.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2019 1:35 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 01:35:12 -0400

I can truthfully say that the best officers I ever served with were enlisted first, but I have had numerous good officers that came from other commissioning sources.
The important thing that you get from enlisted service (and if they are smart, Lieutenant time) is how stuff actually works practically, and not just conceptually. That hands-on time make it real what you are asking your troops to do.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Aug 9 at 2019 6:11 AM

Cpl Jeff N. — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 06:11:50 -0400

I don't think ALL officers should be enlisted first but I do think having far more slots for enlisted to become officers (with or without a degree) should be a goal. Many enlisted folks make great officers and many officers coming through the normal path are great too. We need to find a way to get proven leadership at all levels and if career pathing enlisted into the officer ranks does that then we should pursue it.

I am sure there are degrees in leadership out there. You can get a degree in just about anything these days but we all know that leadership is not learned from books or classrooms it is learned by dealing with, working with and engaging real human beings and being mentored by other solid leaders over your career. Even bad leaders can be learned from.

Response by LCDR Joshua Gillespie made Aug 9 at 2019 7:58 AM

LCDR Joshua Gillespie — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 07:58:06 -0400

It's an outstanding idea...one that's been talked about a great deal. The trouble is time; particularly in combat arms. If every O-1 was required to have made at least E-5 or E-6 before commissioning...you're looking at the potential for a pretty "aged" group selecting for regimental and brigade command. Is that a problem? Well, it could be if that fifty or sixty year old colonel has been an infantryman all that time. What about retention? How would we keep people in for the thirty years or more it would take to get there? Would we have enough majors, light colonels, etc. to fill minimum billets? Finally, what would this do to the NCO corps? If your platoon commander was a squad leader or platoon sergeant a year ago...and your battalion commander went through boot camp, and their first tour with you as a peer...is that going to be a benefit, or a detriment to your position as a senior NCO? What would be the criteria that would distinguish those selected for commissioning, over those who remained enlisted? Would that lower or raise the quality of the relationship between the two? Would it effectively "nix" the ranks of E-8 and above? At the end of the day, it's a sentiment most of us would like to agree with, but when the system "works", it seems to work well.

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Aug 9 at 2019 8:03 AM

LT Brad McInnis — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 08:03:53 -0400

As a prior enlisted Officer (Boatswain's Mate), I will say no. Some of the best officers I saw, were straight out of college. The dedication, leadership and whatnot is independent of the experience and makes some officers better than others. I will say, that I think there should be more LDO's in the service, but that is my 2 cents.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2019 9:41 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 09:41:36 -0400

Off hand yes but realistically it will never happen. What I think should change is that all ROTC officers go to basic training and not officer summer camp for ROTC.

Response by Capt Michael Wilford made Aug 9 at 2019 11:04 AM

Capt Michael Wilford — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 11:04:27 -0400

Cpl. Tucker, I have a bit of bias here as I am a Mustang. My short answer is yes, but again, that is my personal bias. I went through the MECEP commissioning program and when I came back to the fleet as a 2nd LT, I found the transition from enlisted to officer to be much easier than my colleagues who were not previously enlisted; I had the immediate respect of the enlisted Marines as they knew I had come from their ranks. But, did that automatically make me a leader? No. While I do agree with you to an extent that leadership is learned and earned, it can also be taught to the right individual from the right individual, even in a college setting; I have a Masters of Science in Leadership. That does not mean that every class I took makes me a leader, it does mean that I learned what it takes to be the leader I was developed to be... As you have correctly pointed out, there is much more to leadership than classroom instruction, it is the sum of experience, instruction, and inherent trait that some have and some do not. This is a great thought and discussion provoking question! Semper Fi!

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Aug 9 at 2019 11:44 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 11:44:43 -0400

Cpl Andrew Tucker, good question. Perhaps one of the most debated issues in "bull sessions" among US military members. I'm coming at this from my experience as an Air Force officer, government contractor working primarily for officer customers, and as an Army Civilian employee. My opinion is filled with broad generalizations based on my experience and supported by little imperial evidence.
First, I do not believe a bachelors degree is necessary for a person to be an officer or a good leader. Neither is it necessary for a person to become a pilot. As a pilot training instructor, I taught US military students, all with bachelors degrees and some with prior service, to fly, but I also taught foreign-national students some with no post-secondary education. The easiest students to teach at the "primary jet" level were those with civilian or military flying experience--no surprise. Students with an aerospace engineering degree or a music performance degree has equal success and failures as pilot students.
I served with officers from all military services. Some were good leaders, some were good managers, and others were not good at either. Their degree seemed to make no difference in the quality of their leadership or management ability at the O-4 or O-5 level. Most of the prior-service non-aviation officers I served with exhibited a greater level of maturity and leadership than their peers. Most of them had commanded at all officer grades. Definitely the top 10% of officers in their service. Aviation in general, and the Air Force in particular, has a different paradigm. The front-line troops--the people how put fire and steel on target--are officers. The support troops are NCOs and junior enlisted with a smaller number of officer leaders. The opportunity to consistently lead more than a dozen or so people usually isn't presented to a rated officer until they are Majors and often Lieutenant Colonels. Meanwhile their USAF support officer, Army, Navy, and Marine Corps counterparts are leading organizations of ever increasing size and responsibility from a platoon to a company, to a battalion.
What does the requirement for a degree do for the officer and the Service. I hope studying for a degree, particularly a STEM degree, instills discipline and a love of learning in the person. I also, hope the requirement to produce papers and presentations as part of college courses improves the graduate's communications skills--very important to good leadership. Finally, I hope the study of a wide range of thought and practice in management, governance, philosophy, psychology, physiology, and sociology give the graduate improved insight into human behavior and organization leadership that will help them be good officers. I'm not at all sure today's university education provides any of this, but it should. Additionally, the four to six years required to get the bachelors degree insures the newly commissioned officer is in his or her mid-20s when they start their service. A great age to be ambitious, courageous, confident, and strong ("6 foot 6 and bullet proof"), but with a level of maturity not evident in most 18-year-olds. With a good NCO to help them, these "young college kids" can become great officers.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Aug 9 at 2019 12:05 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 12:05:38 -0400

With the exception of one lieutenant the officers who were former enlisted did well that I encountered. I agree that it is a good thing from the training and experience point of view but It would be hard to maintain the necessary accession levels with the pool of qualified college grads and the extended service time required for someone to serve successfully as a CPL or SGT. The Germans had a program in the 80s that did this with a portion of their force of both NCO and officer candidates but not the entire force. I don't know if they still do or not.

One thing that was difficult for the NCOs who became officers that I know, was the fact that they had to stay an officer for 10 years to retire as an officer, otherwise they retired at a funky enlisted as officer conversion pay rate . So take a Soldier who transfers over as a SSG or SFC (those were the ranks the folks I encountered held) and you're talking old guy in a young guys game about the time they are moving into Company Command.

What was a hoot though was when a guy who I had served with as SSGs and then again when he was a 2LT showed up to be my BN Commander when I was CSM, talk about a smooth transition and faith in your battle buddy.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Aug 9 at 2019 12:28 PM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Fri, 09 Aug 2019 12:28:38 -0400

Of the prior enlisted Officers I worked for, about half weren't a damn. I don't think it really matters.

Response by MGySgt Jerry Suarez made Aug 11 at 2019 1:56 AM

MGySgt Jerry Suarez — Sun, 11 Aug 2019 01:56:58 -0400

This is tricky since I have seen all types, prior enlisted or mustangers as we call them in the Marines and not so great. Great officers with no prior enlisted and not so great. I think where the argument gets muddy is that young second Lt that comes out of OCS and truly believes he is superior and because he/she takes an oath of office vice an oath of enlistment they sometimes dont understand the importance or difference of that. With that being said I would hope and believe that the enlisted corps is still doing their job in mentoring these young officers prior enlisted or not to become great senior officers. After all dont SNCOs train them at OCS?, so why stop?

S/F

Response by LTC Thomas Cahill made Aug 11 at 2019 2:31 PM

LTC Thomas Cahill — Sun, 11 Aug 2019 14:31:07 -0400

I wonder how many people understood your "Heinleinian" reference. As one who started as an E-1 and later came back in as an O-1 and retired as an O-5, I would agree with the concept, particularly for the combat arms. However, in other branches, it might not be practical. I was one of three Nurses in my Officer Basic Course who wore the Combat Infantryman Badge. I will also never forget one of my soldiers coming up to me and saying to me "You were prior enlisted, weren't you, sir?" I said "Yes, why" and he responded "It shows." If you want to lead, you have to know what your troops have to do and how they have to do it. Incidentally, there were no females in the Mobile Infantry, but many years after writing his book, Heinlein said he should have included them.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2019 10:59 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Sep 2019 22:59:33 -0400

In my experience the majority of prior enlisted officers were better leaders.

Response by Cpl Ryan McGrath made Oct 4 at 2019 1:01 AM

Cpl Ryan McGrath — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 01:01:02 -0400

My question/thought is how much time enlisted?

Four years is too much in my opinion. In a four year time the unit your in, op tempo, leadership and peers your serving with, and duty station could rot ones desire to continue in any capacity.

If less than four years, how long?

One year. If you go to PI or SD that eats up 3 months and a weak. After that MCT or ITB at SOI. I can't remember how long MCT was 5 weeks maybe. Infantry do 3 months at ITB before MOS specific 0300 training if I remember correctly.

After all that initially training do you send these potential officers to the fleet? It would only be a matter of months time in a unit. And are the units deploying or training to be deployed while that person is there?

There is much to consider if enlistment was mandatory prior to officer. That's just a quick take. What else should be considered folks?

Response by CPO Paul Larsien made Nov 15 at 2019 7:56 PM

CPO Paul Larsien — Fri, 15 Nov 2019 19:56:11 -0500

Yes! Adding experience and humility. You'd think it was the 19th century!

Response by LTC Betty Jane Bower-Hansen made Jan 3 at 2021 3:19 PM

LTC Betty Jane Bower-Hansen — Sun, 03 Jan 2021 15:19:11 -0500

I got my commission through ROTC. My first company commander was enlisted, OCS, then an officer. He was HATED by the enlisted because of his personality and attitude toward his enlisted soldiers, thinking they were like servants. He failed to train me, his very green, inexperienced 2LT. Fortunately, I was able to hang with SGTs, SSGs, SFCs, and our 1SGT (the MSGs were assigned elsewhere). I learned a lot from them, and had enlisted people ask where I went to basic.
All that said, I think a lot of enlisted make great officers because they had knowledge and empathy. I think it really depends on the person.
My crappy captain commander was probably not liked when he was enlisted.

Response by LTC Betty Jane Bower-Hansen made Jan 3 at 2021 3:28 PM

LTC Betty Jane Bower-Hansen — Sun, 03 Jan 2021 15:28:44 -0500

One thing to mention: enlisted can pretty much stay in their MOS field, warrants stay in their career path.
2LTs, 1LTs, and even young CPTs get put in all kinds of jobs and get all kinds of duties that they are not trained to do. They have to depend on good enlisted people to help them.
My first job as an XO at an AG company as a 2LT had about 50 “additional” duties: pay officer, weight control officer, testing (SQT, CTT) officer, training officer, NBC officer, Arms Room Officer and so many others I’ve forgotten. I wasn’t trained to do any of them, so be patient while those junior officers learn the ropes. Would prior service help? Maybe, maybe not.