Should permanent profile SM receive reduced pay? Why or why not?

2014-11-26T06:25:51-05:00

During endurance mobility PRT session, it seems that more and more SM are falling into profile group. Is it fair permanent profile SM receive the same amount of pay that personal not on profile receive, being that they are not fully capable?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2014 6:37 AM

2014-11-26T06:37:24-05:00

If a soldier has a legitimate injury, especially if it was received in the performance of their duty, then of course they should receive the same pay. They do need to be able to perform in their MOS.
Unless you’re a medical professional it’s not for us to decide. If you see a soldier using their profile to shirk their duties, but off duty catch them performing activities they’re supposedly not able to perform due to their injury, then report it.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2014 6:41 AM

2014-11-26T06:41:38-05:00

A permanent profile does not equate to not being fully capable. I have had a P2 for my lower back for the better part of a decade and have deployed 3 separate times (twice to Iraq and once to Afghanistan).

The military has a system to determine if a Soldier is fully capable or not, it is the MEB / MMRB. If the boards determine a Soldier can perform their MOS duties, despite their profile, then they are fully capable. If not, then the Soldier is medically discharged / retired from the service.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2014 6:54 AM

2014-11-26T06:54:35-05:00

Absolutely not and I honestly can't believe that an NCO brought this question up. After a lifetime of service to this nation parts of me are no longer working the way they were when I first started but that does not make me any less of a leader.
I pray that you are never wounded in combat and must obtain a permanent profile because apparently you believe that the sacrifices of so many great soldiers are worthy of a pay reduction.

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Nov 26 at 2014 7:12 AM

2014-11-26T07:12:25-05:00

Here is my train of thought on this matter. If you can not physically run (though this can be worked around), ruck [especially], wear gear [especially] etc... , you are not fit to defend yourself, let alone defend freedom and democracy.... but here are the exceptions:

1) If you are Injured in combat, We, America owe you. You should be able to stay and they should get you duties that don't require you to inflict pain on yourself.

2) You have been in for a while, and have deployed a couple times, its understandable. Your body is breaking down. You gave the Army your best years, now let the Army take care of you. I noticed these people usually work in S-3.

Here is who we need to get rid of:

1) If you are on a permanent profile and have not deployed once. We don't really owe you anything, and by keeping you we are doing the healthy soldier's a dis-service, as they will have to cover down various details and duties that you can not do.

2) If you are lower enlisted and not injured in combat, it is kind of unfair to the healthy soldier's, because now the platoon is down an able body, and now others must cover down for you.

3) For some reason, when I was in, we had soldier's coming from AIT with permanent profiles. If you get a permanent profile while in Tradoc, I dont think you are cut out to be a soldier. (Health wise)

Its sad seeing an able bodies soldier being booted out for PT failure or weight control, we can fix them and make them productive member's of our unit who can participate in work and pull their weight with details and duties.... while we keep in these Permanent Profiles who come from AIT, who will probably not ever be able to pull tower guard or ECP duty, so they end up getting rewarded with a nice inside job..... And when the soldiers catch on and ask questions, I have to straight make up lies to justify why the Army does that, even though I myself don't agree with it, because its my job to support the Army and its policies in front of my subordinates.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Nov 26 at 2014 7:58 AM

2014-11-26T07:58:51-05:00

If the MEB/PEB/RILO has determined that a member is still fit for duty, it is awfully presumptuous of a member of the unit to think that they should get paid less. When you have a MD behind your name, full access to the member's medical records, completely understand what the actual limits of perm profiles, and that retention standards and "PT" standards are not the same, then you can talk with at least some understanding of the situation and processes.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Nov 26 at 2014 9:07 AM

2014-11-26T09:07:06-05:00

I had a P2 for bad knees the last 6 years of my career as a Tanker due to continuous impact from 20+ years of running and climbing up and down those beasts. While I may not have been able to run any longer, the profile did not impact my ability to serve as an Instructor/SR Instructor of both new Soldiers in IET/OSUT and LTs during BOLC. The profile also did not impact my ability to oversee the S-3 shop of ASG-Kuwait in support of OIF/OEF/OND. Why should I have been paid any less when I was able to and did perform every facet of my "job", except for being able to run, just as I did prior to being placed on permanent profile?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2014 9:10 AM

2014-11-26T09:10:52-05:00

This is not for us to decide as individual soldiers. If a soldier cannot perform his duties according to the Army then he will be put out. It can either be a malingering chapter, fit for duty assessment, medical evaluation board, etc... There's many choices available to the Commander. The problem lies with the leadership not knowing what tools are available to them. As a MFT myself the biggest problem Ive been dealing with is the medical provider not filling out profiles correctly. They have to be marked continuation of.... and original date etc all sorts of fine print that doesnt get placed so you have no ground to stand on when it comes toabuse of the system.
Bottum Line we all as leaders have a part to do to ensure a fit force. It just dosnt get enforced and there are too many over copassionate leaders afraid of doing the right thing or are ignorant of what should be happening.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2014 10:25 AM

2014-11-26T10:25:12-05:00

I don't have any issues with Soldiers that have permanent profiles and they can function within those limits. My issue is with the Soldiers that ride those less than 30 days profiles just to get out of pt or doing their job, and what I hate the most is when the clinics give those like candy without an effective system of keeping tabs on who is giving out profile to who and how often. Case in point: I have seen Soldiers here in DLI that go to nurse x or medic b and get a profile on the short form, next month they go to a different person so the person that is giving them the second (third, fourth....) profile cannot see what the first one did, so when leadership calls the clinic to see what's going on with the Soldier and what can we do about it, they have no clue of what's going on.

Response by SFC Melker Johansson made Nov 26 at 2014 10:44 AM

2014-11-26T10:44:32-05:00

I will try not to be offended by the question.

I have chronic back pain because of moderate-to-severe Kyphoscoliosis, I have torn ligaments in my right hand, I have numerous allergies and minor physical ailments, I have Autism, I have an Anxiety Disorder, I have a Sensory Processing Disorder, and I have chronic Depression.

Despite all that, I have served honorably for sixteen years, I have deployed twice (10 months in Afghanistan and 14 months in Iraq), I'm a geographical bachelor because my EFMP child and EFMP wife couldn't move with me (I have already missed half of my 11-year old special needs daughter's life due to military missions). I have always had good evaluation reports and are respected for my MOS knowledge and duty performance.

I have never been on a permanent profile, but I definitely need to be on one due to my multiple issues. Are you telling me that I do not deserve my full pay if I get on one?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2014 11:40 AM

2014-11-26T11:40:24-05:00

Many Soldiers on permanent profile consistently get 1/1 NCOERs, are good leaders, and are fully deployable. Why should they get paid less because they are injured?

I would expect a question like this from a private not a NCO. You need to reevaluate your priorities if you think PT is the most important attribute in a Soldier. There are a lot of Soldiers on permanent profile that contribute more to the Army than their peers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2014 12:34 PM

2014-11-26T12:34:10-05:00

SSG Vielle,

I am going to try to not lose my composure here. The last time I checked, physical fitness is a part of being in the Army and all Soldiers participate in it. It falls on the Soldier to ensure that they meet high/weight and PT standards and that the physical fitness that the military conducts is not to help improve the SM's PT but to keep them at the same level they are at. So why would a profile keep a Soldier from making the money that their pay grade states they should make?

To keep this going, why would I punish a Soldier by taking away a part of their pay when they are competent in their job for their current grade? To be honest, I would take a Soldier that is highly intelligent and keep them over a PT stud that cannot do their job properly. Being an intelligence analyst, the ability to do our job correctly directly equates to lives saved or lost on the battle field.

Another thing I would like to point out is that the only thing a permanent profile (P2) keeps a SM from doing is normal unit PT. They are still able to do details, be range cadre, and any other detail that the unit requires. If the SM were not qualified to be the rank that they are currently, they would not have been promoted by their leadership because there would be documentation stating that the SM cannot handle leadership at the next level. Not being able to participate in something that the unit does for one hour a day I do not believe constitutes a reduction in pay. I would never negatively counsel an SM for being on profile so what ground would you as a leader have to say that they do not receive the same pay as others of the same rank.

One last thing. I have a friend who is on a P3 or P4 profile and is currently an E-6/SSG. In my opinion he is one of the best leaders I have ever had the privilege to meet. He is on a permanent profile because within his first year of service, on his first deployment, he was hit by an IED and lost one leg from the knee down and one arm. He still goes out and does what he can for PT and he still leads PT to the best of his ability. Does he deserve to have his pay docked because he cannot run or call cadence?

SSG Vance

Response by CW2 Stephen Pate made Nov 26 at 2014 12:47 PM

2014-11-26T12:47:00-05:00

As a leader I know it's frustrating to see a 1/3 of your platoon fall out with profiles during morning PT. I challenge you to re-evaluate your PT program as well as your profile PT program. Also take a look at the moral of your troops. This is usually a sign of a much greater/ deeper issue. I know that some Soldiers are legitimately hurt and they will recover eventually and get back to regular PT. What I'm saying is if you feel you have malingering or profile riding problem, it is, as a Noncommissioned Officer, your fault.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Nov 26 at 2014 3:29 PM

2014-11-26T15:29:26-05:00

I'd say that since many injuries stem from soldiers putting the mission first despite their physical limitations, thus causing the permanent profile, then no they shouldn't get paid less.

I can't imagine telling a MSG who slipped a disk in her back from jumping out of planes one too many times that she will now get paid less due to the wear and tear the Army placed on her body.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Nov 26 at 2014 3:30 PM

2014-11-26T15:30:01-05:00

ADA, 1990 (Americans with Disabilities Act) was put in place just for questions like this. How do we determine the "worth" of a person? I know people with no legs that are twice the performer as someone who has been fortunate enough to not have to know what that must be like. Someone training for war who gets injured is entitled to the same considerations as someone who was wounded by an act of war. MEB boards are convened when necessary to determine if the service member is able to continue serving. If necessary, the service member may be medically seperated with the pre-determined percentage of disability. I have never met anyone who made the military a career and had not had to take a knee at some time during their tenure.

Response by SSG John Erny made Nov 26 at 2014 4:07 PM

2014-11-26T16:07:39-05:00

SSG James Vielle

Well as the banged up Old guy who did to many dumb things like jumping out of planes, lifting more that I should, and losing to gravity a time or two I think I can answer this.

17+ years in to the game my body started to go down hill. I served in Panama, Desert Storm, OIF/OEF getting injured in OIF from a fall. When I was given the Permanent Profile I was told you are no longer an affective leader and we are going to medical you out, don't worry you will get retirement pay. That coming from the BN level. At the state Level they countered that and said No, we do not do that to soldiers nearing retirement.

So it depends on who you ask, I wanted the 20 year letter as a mile stone, crossing the finish line. They found plenty for me to do. RRNCO, peer to peer counselor, take care of the miss fits, make the coffee!!!, Drive the bus, and anything described as other duties needing done. Oh yes Range NCO at times, rollover training safety NCO. There are plenty of things that a Dravo Delta can do to free up others for training. ALCON: BTW, try doing the 2.5 mile walk to standard some time, I dare you.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2014 5:34 PM

2014-11-26T17:34:16-05:00

You've got to be kidding right?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2014 5:43 PM

2014-11-26T17:43:56-05:00

At the end if every career in ANY branch of the military...who isn't on a permanent profile lol

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Nov 26 at 2014 6:07 PM

2014-11-26T18:07:27-05:00

No more than I should get paid more because I can run faster than you (which I can, and I'm on profile). So how much should you get paid if you are not on a profile and get smoked by someone who is? We are not paid by performance, we are paid by rank.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Nov 26 at 2014 7:00 PM

2014-11-26T19:00:35-05:00

Seriously?

Absolutely NOT! Should a person with a disability get paid less for the same job a person w/o a disability performs - same answer.

Response by 1SG Mike Case made Nov 26 at 2014 7:27 PM

2014-11-26T19:27:57-05:00

Meet 1LT Joshua Pitcher!!! Go tell him, because he has a permanent profile, he deserves less money than you SSG!!!

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Nov 26 at 2014 7:35 PM

2014-11-26T19:35:36-05:00

I apologize that these people decided to join the service and got injured to a point that would not have been likely had they not joined service. If pay was reduced to be "fair" people would stop getting profiles and make simple injuries worse. Leading to massive increases in MED boards.

You should be encouraging people to get profiles, training and mentor them to heal, and help build them back up and better then before. I would love to meet someone who got through 20+ years with no profiles, and never got injured. They need to be captured and studied.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2014 7:53 PM

2014-11-26T19:53:53-05:00

Once while working retail, myself and another worker (who was much shorter than me) were restocking an area. She asked if I could put some things on the top shelves. I told her that I should get paid more than her because I was taller. She angrily asked why. I said because I could reach the bottom shelves and the top shelves while she could only reach the bottom shelves.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Nov 26 at 2014 9:07 PM

2014-11-26T21:07:18-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member Typically, I don't respond to posts which create angst for me, but in this case I am making and taking exception.

Perhaps we should pay Soldiers for their GT score. If you have a 110 or better then you draw 100% of base pay. For each 10 points under 110 you score, you lose 1%. So at a 100 GT you are paid at 99% etc.

Ok, wait, lets pay based on MOS. 18 series, 19 series and 11 series get 100%. Other combat arms get 90%. Combat Service Support gets 60%.

Ok, wait, lets create Specialist 5 through 9 and any Soldier who is not a hard stripe NCO, assigned to a direct leadership billet on the MTO&E, will draw reduced pay but still have career progression.

Obviously, I said all that to make a point. It seems your hypothesis is that anyone with a permanent profile is malingering. That is just not the case. The military is a physically demanding career. Each person is different and the physical stress of garrison as well as combat service effects their well being differently. Consequently, as people age, are injured, and become well again, their abilities change and in some cases erode. Each Soldiers conditions and profile are measured against AR 40-501 to determine fitness to remain in service. If you are no longer fit, then an MEB is convened, a MMRB seated, and or a PEB makes a final decision.

There is no arbitrary decision pertaining to fitness. No Soldier draws nor do they deserve to draw less pay than another Soldier based on a profile. If they meet the standard in AR 40-501 then they, like you, deserve full pay. Leadership abilities are not eroded either due to injury. The best CSM I ever had had a broken back from a parachute incident, but THANKFULLY, continued to serve, teach, mentor, and train young NCOs and Officers.

I have not voted you up or down, but I vehemently disagree with your assertion and question.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2014 9:34 PM

2014-11-26T21:34:39-05:00

I have a P3 and still score 300+ on EVERY APFT. I had to reclass due to my profile but still perform my duties as a NCO and a leader to the fullest..... So just because my profile that doesn't hold me back I should be paid less?

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Nov 26 at 2014 10:25 PM

2014-11-26T22:25:49-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member you still haven't answered my question. I want to know what you think a person should be paid who is not on profile and is out performed by someone who is on a permanent profile?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 26 at 2014 10:27 PM

2014-11-26T22:27:13-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member Thank you for bringing this kind of thinking to daylight. Sunshine is the best disinfectant and if this kind of thinking is prevalent with NCOs and Officers in our military then I would love nothing more than to expose this to general scrutiny. The idea that a profiled soldier is less capable than a non-profiled soldier is a matter of debate. I would offer that we have more of a problem with soldiers who are incapable of rational and intelligent thinking not to mention being seemingly incapable of true wisdom which incorporates compassion and critical thinking. Given that the profiling system that we use in the Army is based primarily on physical disabilities(although there is a psych component), we would need to develop a parallel disability profiling system for those who seriously entertain such close-minded and ignorant ideas as this. In my mind, i've seen much more toxic thinking that reduces the ability of a soldier than ever could be reduced by a physical disability. Therefore, if we were to institute a system for the discrimination against soldiers who develop a physical injury or disability then we should probably just summarily discharge with prejudice any soldier who exhibits thinking of this nature as this lack of intellectual integrity brought about by an overabundance of narcissism certainly is more destructive to our Army than any injury obtained by any soldier. I would much rather go into battle with a soldier who lost a limb than one who has lost his or her mind.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Nov 26 at 2014 10:32 PM

2014-11-26T22:32:18-05:00

This is the craziest thing I have ever read...I will not vote you down, as you were just asking for opinions. If you actually think this, then I would suggest that maybe it is time to move on and stop leading Soldiers. The sad thing about this question, is a LOT of leadership view Soldiers with permanent profiles as 'sub standard'. Sure, they don't come right out and say it, but you can see it with the actions within units.

Except for you SSG Private RallyPoint Member, you just actually come right out and say it...

Response by CSM Tee Oden made Nov 26 at 2014 10:53 PM

2014-11-26T22:53:07-05:00

I believe if the SM has a permanent profile due to illness or injury, they must be evaluated for all skills. That way their value can be utilized fairly. Their pay should not be affected as this issue could happen to anyone. Speaking as a retired SF CSM now disabled but, able to function in various areas.

Response by MAJ Raúl Rovira made Nov 26 at 2014 11:00 PM

2014-11-26T23:00:05-05:00

Soldiers with permanent profiles are kept in the Army because a medical authority determined that they can still serve. They may have some limitations but they can still Shoot, Move and Communicate.

They are only "not fully capable" if their leadership sees them and/or treats them as "non fully capable". I bet that If they are given an opportunity to succeed they will take it and impress you.

My personal story, after surviving paralysis form an non-combat injury in Afghanistan, I have a P3 on three different areas since 2012. Yet, I served as an Executive to a 2-Star General in Cairo, Egypt during the 2013 revolution.

As a WTB BN XO I saw many great Soldiers and NCOs get back in the fight despite their limitations. One of them returned as an 11B to lead a squad in Afghanistan.

I would never ask for extra pay for that. I signed for the mission, but don't screw me and my family on an opinion by taking money for having a profile. I still can't figure out how this question was conceived.

Response by SSG Thomas Gallegos made Nov 26 at 2014 11:52 PM

2014-11-26T23:52:51-05:00

Hell NO! I ended up serving almost 16 years before I was medically retired in 2012. During that time I served without proper knowledge from battalion leadership ( didn't care) as the Rear-Detachment NCOIC, I was switched batteries while my unit reorganized. I served as the Training Room and Supply Room NCOIC. My command which again I didn't mind did not mind receiving a phone call to go get so and so from "downtown." I was doing my job until the end. So to that end HELL NO! should a Soldier who goes to work every damn day just like the rest of the "joe's" receive less pay.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 12:47 AM

2014-11-27T00:47:09-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member, does being able to do normal PT encompass the entirety of your job? Hovering over your name, it shows you as a "Power Generation Equipment Repairer." Let's say for the sake of argument that you tear up your knee badly during PRT, and have a permanent injury that means you shouldn't run so much to avoid aggravating it. Permanent Profile. You are still otherwise mobile, and able to run if a crisis situation demands it.. Are you suddenly no longer capable, or less capable, of repairing power generation equipment? Or since you are an NCO, are you suddenly less able to lead and supervise Soldiers that repair power generation equipment? If you are still able to do your primary job to the fullest extent, should you be paid less? Why?

I have a permanent profile due to knee damage that has steadily grown worse over my years of service. I can no longer participate in the run event in the APFT, but I pass the alternate event as well as the pushups and situps. I am not fat either, so no flag for body composition. I also just completed a deployment in Liberia that began in April advising their military on everything under the sun related to Communications. At the same time, as the only Signal Soldier I handled every aspect of Communications support for our team of over 30, from radios to computer networking to telecommunications. While there we ended up having to deal with the Ebola crisis, including mentoring the Liberian military in their crisis response missions. Did I not fully accomplish my mission because I have a permanent no-running profile? Should I give back some of my pay?

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 1:16 AM

2014-11-27T01:16:44-05:00

Is it fair to receive the same amount of pay as those that aren't on profile that don't work? Always at appointments? Don't know that job? Send them to the PEB so then can be done with serving...

Response by SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA made Nov 27 at 2014 1:20 AM

2014-11-27T01:20:53-05:00

With all due respect to your rank SSG Vielle, this is an embarrassing question.

I am on a permanent profile, thanks to a service injury. I already gave my right knee, why should I have to give part of my pay?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 2:40 AM

2014-11-27T02:40:49-05:00

I am getting the idea that something is wrong here. It would be one thing to ask an honest question but quite another to push it. Think of it like this, soldiers are like athletes with responsibility and getting hurt and not being taken care is a sin against humanity. Only a policy wonk with an agenda of reducing benefits makes sense. That you keep pushing people with injuries like this has me wondering a lot of things.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 2:44 AM

2014-11-27T02:44:53-05:00

That is an asinine thought process. I have a P2 for my shoulders because I was crushed during my last deployment. It affects my PT test but not my day to day contribution to my unit. I won't lie, I am limited a little bit because my shoulders will never do what they did before but I was medically cleared to return to duty. How can someone take money from me or any other Soldier who has been medically cleared to return to duty? You want to pay me less for my permanent, then we should be paying those with temporay profiles less while they are on that profile. See how ignorant that sounds? I still serve as good if not better than most fully capable Soldiers. This is just a stupid idea. If I can't serve to my fullest capacity, then MEB my butt and send me home with my Gold watch.

Response by 1SG Eric Rice made Nov 27 at 2014 5:38 AM

2014-11-27T05:38:32-05:00

If leaders are asking this kind of question it makes you wonder how they treat the soldiers that work with them. This is belittling and anyone who even considers or hints at reducing someones pay because they have a permanent profile should be the ones receiving a pay reduction.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 6:38 AM

2014-11-27T06:38:00-05:00

I can't believe someone would post something like this I didn't join the Army with injuries, but after years of grinding for the military and with my Soldiers I found myself with a permanent profile. If so many Soldiers are falling outPT formation because they have a profile and the unit hasn't set up a profile PT program it's the units and leadership fault. When u r give aSoldier is given a profile there are modified exercises they can perform. NCOs check your Soldiers profile on what they can and can't do. Check the PRT Manuel for modified exercises Sodleirs can perform its in there trust me I've did the same for my Soldiers.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 6:44 AM

2014-11-27T06:44:36-05:00

I only hope this questions was a troll attempt and not a legitimate question by a fellow service member! Provisions to take action against malingerers is one thing, but cutting the pay because someone can no longer perform their duties due to physical limitations is preposterous. Many have combat related injuries that can no longer perform in the field but are kept in the military to provide training as they have extensive knowledge that would make no sense to lose. In your theory, my co-worker who lost a leg in combat to an IED who can not return to the field but is placed in the schoolhouse to train should receive less pay than the soldier they replaced his field position with? I would possibly even suggest that same troop continue to receive combat pay until they retire and can receive VA compensation for the injury. I am not sure who you are trying to impress with this question but by the looks of the responses, there is no one impressed with your question!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 9:01 AM

2014-11-27T09:01:04-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member using your own standard, let's apply it to your inability to properly form complete sentences and a total lack of comprehension on the use of punctuation. By your own myopic view of diminishing a Soldier's pay based on a completely flawed standard, your pay should be reduced as well. It appears you are completely incapable of mentoring Soldiers on how to properly communicate using the written word. Understand, this is not a personal attack, I am merely using the standard you are suggesting and applying it to another area of leadership. I concur with numerous other leaders (such as SSG Robert Burns ) that you are probably more a victim of poor mentorship and development. But you really need to heed the advice of the overwhelming majority of veterans and current leaders from so many different branches and classifications (NCOs and Officers) that are attempting to help you!

Response by PFC Zanie Young made Nov 27 at 2014 9:37 AM

2014-11-27T09:37:01-05:00

SSG Vielle. I have read every response and I, as a private, have to agree with everyone. No one asked to be hurt. How would you feel if it happened to you? Do you think it is fair to have your pay reduced just because you are on a permanent profile? I was never on a permanent profile, but I have been on a "dead man's" profile. I often spent time in the TMC because I have torn my calf muscle. This was in AIT. I have often been accused of "riding my profile" when I was merely following it to the letter by doing everything I could. I had the option of being medically discharged and refused it because I still felt that I could serve. I never got my pay reduced because of an injury. I do not agree with you because if those people who have gotten hurt but still felt that they can serve had to suffer a loss of pay, then you just added to their suffering. How much more will these servicemembers suffer when they have already given up a part of themselves for our country? And don't forget about their families who supported them along the way. You might as well take away the pay that compensate the family of the KIA SM, too. Very negative post, indeed!

Response by SSG Sara Sutton made Nov 27 at 2014 9:38 AM

2014-11-27T09:38:44-05:00

This question definitely strikes a deep nerve with me. Coming from a family with deep roots in the military and being a female has been a double edged sword. I have always been told you carry your own load. And around 10 yrs if you don't wake up cursing out at least one major joint in your body, then you look to your right and your left and thank your battles for carrying your weight. Being well past 10 yrs and cursing far more than one major joint each morning and sometimes throughout the day, my body has earned this breather after multiple injuries and surgeries. The fact that I may be on a permanent profile may have limited my PRT engagement with my Soldiers but it surely HAS NOT stopped my continued ongoing leadership and physical improvement development with them. So maybe you should look to yourself if that one hour is SO instrumental.

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Nov 27 at 2014 9:44 AM

2014-11-27T09:44:15-05:00

This is probably one of worst questions i think i have seen. I say this because SSG Private RallyPoint Member if you Want to reduce the pay for a service member on profile. Can we reduce your pay when you go on leave because your not doing and kind of Soldiering. Or better yet when you have to have surgery you will have to go on profile do you want your pay reduced? So if a Service member is wounded in combat or injured in the line of duty and Profiled Do you support there pay being reduced? If not then why would you allow a double standard as and NCO that would not be a good thing.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Nov 27 at 2014 10:09 AM

2014-11-27T10:09:11-05:00

Better shut this post down before SSG Vielle goes into thumb deficit. Is that possible?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 10:44 AM

2014-11-27T10:44:04-05:00

SSG James Vielle only a toxic leader with an agenda would bring up a topic like this. I myself always smoked my APFT until falling ill and being overcome by disabilities that resulted in me being referred to three MEB's by my Command and Primary Health Care Provider. The reason I was not assigned to the WTU during my third MEB was as a result of me being a proven SNCO that leadership felt could perform the duties and responsibilities commensurate of a SFC in light of medical and physical disabilities sustained throughout my 20 years, 9 months, and 6 days of active duty service in the Navy and Army.

You are most definitely not ready to be selected for SFC and becoming a SNCO! I would venture to say that your chain of command would probably frown upon your views on profiles to the point that they may consider you for an administrative reduction board. We leaders are responsible for the Soldiers entrusted to our charge as they are a direct reflection of us. We need to recognize what Soldiers are on profile for and help them anyway we can to get better and ensure they know that we care about their moral, health, and welfare... Soldiers are not robots. We are human being's that will go to the end of the earth for one another in defense of our great Country that need leaders that they will gladly follow the example of in that a good leader is someone who takes pride in service and their Soldiers.

You have some growing up to do SSG Ville!

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Nov 27 at 2014 11:38 AM

2014-11-27T11:38:48-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member No. There are processes in place for profiles. "Docking" pay would indicate to SMs that they are worth less than their peers. Docking pay would cause SMs to not report injuries and illnesses for fear of repercussions.

Here is one of a million specific examples of that very thing: Troop's shoulder was badly injured on deployment, but he failed to notify anyone, because he was fearful that he would be processed out of the military. As a result, he suffered for about two years with a damaged shoulder, then as a result of the pain, began taking pain meds....got hooked...the rest is history. BECAUSE he was a a hard charger that loved serving, and did not want to jeopardize his career by self reporting injury, the dominos started to fall and he is now gone.

This question is badly worded. I think I understand what you are striving for, which is the questioning of profiles...My advice is to leave it to the Docs. If you have a troop that is in your opinion bullshitting the system (example, bad back profile, can't lift 10 las-and you see him carrying pallets of shingles up a ladder onto a roof) address that profile with your leadership. Nobody wants someone to just "get over".

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 11:47 AM

2014-11-27T11:47:34-05:00

I understand frustration with shammers and I assume your are trying to provide an incentive for Soldiers to perform their best. However, reduced pay would be unfair to the countless service members who have been injured to the extent of requiring a permanent profile. I have close to 9 years in service and have been a PT stud since I left AIT always scoring a 90 in each event or above. My feet constantly hurt now! I know I have plantar fasciitis. Eventually I will likely require surgery and possibly a permanent profile. Don't be so arrogant. Even PT studs like us can get injured.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 12:37 PM

2014-11-27T12:37:54-05:00

SSG James Vielle, review AR 40-501, Standards of Medical Fitness. Just to answer your question, no. If that was the case, then certain people should not get the same pay for lack of truly knowing their job. Maybe we should poll that. I got struck with an IED and my mind is still working, I may be hurt, but I am way smarter than these "so-called" PT studs. Run fast, but how long do you last. How long do it take you before you get thirsty, hungry or tired? Do you know how to manage your food and water if supply line is cut off. We are leaders not politicians. Its bad enough we have to fight them for a decent wage for our sacrifice.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 1:29 PM

2014-11-27T13:29:51-05:00

Even with my P2 profile for my lower back I do more than a lot of the soldiers around me that do not have medical issues. I may not run as fast and for the same distances that I used to run, but I still do my job on a daily basis. SSG James Vielle you may want to step back and look at yourself and think about the statement you made, because their a lot of us in the military that do our jobs and do them well and deserve the pay that we earn.

Response by SPC James Mcneil made Nov 27 at 2014 4:36 PM

2014-11-27T16:36:43-05:00

I see you've received a lot of negative votes for this question. I won't down vote you, but I will say that in my humble opinion the question is flawed. If you were to receive a permanent profile, would you want to be docked pay for an injury? If the SM was faking and it could be proven, then I can see a docking in pay for malingering, but that's another story.

What you seem to be saying is that a SM that is injured (many times due to something that occurred in the line of duty), that person should be punished by lowering his or her income. This is a horrible idea for many reasons. Among these would be the fact that SM's that were hurt would actually avoid going to the doctor and quite possibly make their injuries worse. Add to that the fact that new recruit numbers would go down drastically when people realized the military was punishing people for getting injured.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Nov 27 at 2014 6:22 PM

2014-11-27T18:22:57-05:00

My answer is no. Service members who are on a permanent profile are not there of their own choice as I assume that is. Service members who are on a permanent profile can still serve in the military specifically the Army becasue I don't know what the other branches do it. They still serve a purpose, they can still take care of Soldiers. Why should they receive less pay? Politicians are already trying to reduce our benefits and lessen our pay raises. Why should we lessen the pay checks of Soldiers on a permanent profile?

Response by SFC Harry (Billy) Tison made Nov 27 at 2014 7:27 PM

2014-11-27T19:27:01-05:00

As a SM who was placed on a permanent profile after 15 years of service, I don't agree that I should have recieved reduced pay. I served 13 more honorable years and hope I made an impact on some soldiers that I had contact with

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 7:39 PM

2014-11-27T19:39:31-05:00

SSG Vielle, I voted your post down and this is why; I am 46 years old, just short of 15 years TIS, in the last six (6) days I've ran two (2) 5K's in temps below 25 degrees with an 8:20 minute per mile avg, my PUHLES is 211111 due to sleep apnea. I utilize a CPAP machine and my APFT average score is about 250 over last 18 months and that's an APFT about every three months, zero trips to sick call, I can qualify with my assigned weapon, I pull 24 hour SDNCO when scheduled. Am I fully capable, I think so. So no, I don't think a SM that has a permanent profile should receive reduced pay.

Just because a SM is on permanent profile does not make them less than fully capable.

I apologize, but this post touched a nerve.

Response by SGT Bruce Chapman made Nov 27 at 2014 9:13 PM

2014-11-27T21:13:14-05:00

I am finished with this one because it just keeps making me madder bu the minute after all we sacrificed stayed and went back and would still be volunteering to go so we could do the job we signed on for not just for college money or to sit behind a wire and do nothing but take credit for the work others do and have done is to much for me to keep responding to. of all the Americans that can we the 1% that do join and make it and for my brothers and sisters of the armed forces that have had their last beer I give thanks for those that ask questions like this and do not think we deserve what was promised to us I do hope they suffer a worse fate then I have. and I am not able to much of anything anymore, and that is not very Christian of me but I had to say it. and hope they get no help if they need it

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 9:16 PM

2014-11-27T21:16:31-05:00

I know many soldiers that have permanent profiles and most of the time they do a better job then those who aren't hurt.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2014 9:57 PM

2014-11-27T21:57:01-05:00

Yes, it is fair. Most of the people that are broken are that way due to sacrifices they made. Reducing their pay because of that is a slap in the face. If they are no longer fit for duty, they should enter MEB. If they just can't do certain aspects of PT, so what? If they are intel or signal, does that necessarily matter for an E6 or above? Their job is almost exclusively administrative.

Response by SGM Ron Crump made Nov 27 at 2014 10:56 PM

2014-11-27T22:56:35-05:00

Pay is for service. As long as a person can meet the standards of their MOS/Duty Position they are fit to serve for the same pay as any other person of that rank. If a person is able to serve, even if it means Reclass. Then let them.

Response by MSG Eddie N. made Nov 27 at 2014 11:14 PM

2014-11-27T23:14:55-05:00

Let's phase your question in a way that you'd understand. Should you get paid less since you are not in a combat arms MOS?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 12:37 AM

2014-11-28T00:37:06-05:00

It is our outmost duty to make sure soldiers are not riding profiles. Through my experiences the most hard working soldiers that push themselves are soldiers that have been on profile.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 6:34 AM

2014-11-28T06:34:26-05:00

Dumb question

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 9:21 AM

2014-11-28T09:21:16-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member,

Even though I disagree with you, I see the logic behind your question. It seems that you are being required to do more than your equal share of leading PT, working ranges, doing Sergeant's Time training, etc., because other NCOs have profiles that won't let them wear gear, run, or carry a load. You feel that the non-profile NCOs will get burned out, and you think there should be a way to compensate for the disparity.

I don't think pay reduction is the answer. I think that the NCOs who have profiles should be assigned more of the extra duties that don't require much physical ability, and that will help even out the work load. Also, if you're actually putting in that much more work, I would think this should be reflected on your NCOERs.

There are easy solutions to this problem, and I'm surprised that so many leaders on this thread chose to be disrespectful toward you rather than address the underlying issues. It doesn't set a very good example for junior enlisted members.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 10:17 AM

2014-11-28T10:17:07-05:00

SSG James Vialle,

Like many others, I EARNED my permanent profile through 15 years in the Infantry, 21 years on jump status, and 82 parachute jumps. But I'm not going to go through the same arguments everyone else did.

Let's say that a person gets a permanent profile through playing football on the weekend. That's not military (even though all PT could be considered to support military readiness.) Do you think that person should be docked? For that matter, should they be eliminated from the service and medically discharged?

Back to your original statement, where is their NCO leadership? Have you and your chain abandoned those soldiers in the profile group, or are you working as a unit to support whatever PT they can accomplish? You can't teach self-responsibility, but you can help the good ones with motivation to do the best they can. So how much responsibility do you and your NCO chain bear?

Finally, this whole issue is a throwback to the idea that the first thing you do in combat is drop and knock out 10 pushups. No, I am not saying that physical conditioning is unimportant, but I am saying that a top quality intelligence analyst, a good supply sergeant, an NBC NCO, an armorer, and ... contribute to the success of that soldier with the M-60 under each arm charging the enemy like Rambo.

In my opinion, it is well past time to consider the WHOLE SOLDIER, what he does well and what he needs improvement at, when determining the soldier's value to the Army.

Response by 1SG DeyShuan Shepherd made Nov 28 at 2014 10:27 AM

2014-11-28T10:27:35-05:00

I am having a real hard time dealing with this question. When I was a younger Soldier I was really good at physical fitness, but as time has passed and the machine naturally wears down I have become slower. I do not believe that my pay should be attached to my ability to run two miles. The reason for a profile is to allow personnel to recover from injuries. There are some injuries that Soldiers cannot recover from. In those instances personnel require permanent profiles. Why would pay be attached to one's physical ability? Is that all they have to offer? I am not sure about the other services, but the Army works on the Total Soldier Concept. I would like for you to do some research on how this process works. I am severely disappointed that of all the issues that plague service members that this is the one the you chose to bring to the table. There are so many things that I would like to say to you because I am here to mentor and motivate Soldiers. I really hope that this question is not representative of your thought process as a noncommissioned officer.

Response by SFC Matthew Parker made Nov 28 at 2014 11:01 AM

2014-11-28T11:01:04-05:00

SSG,
I was a P2/P3 soldier for 8 years, three combat tours and dozens of PT tests. I can still max out sit ups and push ups and could deploy into Iraq tomorrow. I was a platoon sergeant in combat and had my share of contact, you still want to reduce my pay?

A profile is a medical restriction and 90% of the time its a result of military service. Road marches, field training, accidents in the motor pool or a dislocated shoulder during Battalion morale flag football game can all result in a permanent profile. But if the solder comes to work everyday and does the job then its not an issue. When it interferes with a soldiers work we have the medical board system to determine if they stay in or get retired.

Even if the soldier was hurt off duty the medical board will determine if the soldier stays or goes, reducing pay is a ridicules and dishonorable idea.

Response by SFC Matthew Parker made Nov 28 at 2014 11:19 AM

2014-11-28T11:19:39-05:00

SSG,
I'm going to look at your question again and try to answer from a different point of view.
When I was young PFC-SPC I did look at the older soldiers and the profiles and think if you couldn't hack it you should get out. My platoon sergeant drank coffee for PT, running, well that was not going to happen. I do remember thinking I should get part of his pay because I was able to do more.

So I can see the point of your question. As a NCO you may have a soldier on profile now who can't pt like the rest of your team or squad and your getting frustrated with his/her limitations that others need to cover down on.

But allow me to share one of my secrets of leadership, when I had those "broken" soldiers I did rehab with the soldier if my schedule allowed. And after final formation we went to the gym together. I motivated not judged, I showed concern and not contempt for the soldier. And every time the soldier showed improvement I would do a written counseling statement documenting his/her achievement. An extra 5 lbs lifted, 5 seconds off a 2 mile bike ride or the ability to walk 10 feet further all earned a counseling statement.

The soldier knew the platoon leadership and his/her peers supported them and we never allowed them to get down or give up. It takes time and effort but that soldier may be the one who drags you off the battlefield when your hit.

There are always going to be those who "milk the profile" and I suspect you may have run across one recently, thus your post. But that soldier is crying out for a leader to mentor and motivate them so take the challenge and see what leadership can do for those who may be frustrating you.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 11:24 AM

2014-11-28T11:24:12-05:00

If the Soldier is not fully capable of doing the job, they are medboarded or reclassed. Just because a grunt has a permanent profile doesn't mean he still can't do the job. Bad asses with one leg who come back and deploy obviously might not be able to hump 120 pound rucks up the mountain, but he can still shoot move and communicate. So no, there should be no pay reduction.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 11:32 AM

2014-11-28T11:32:04-05:00

Interesting question.

Response by MAJ William Guglielmi made Nov 28 at 2014 12:03 PM

2014-11-28T12:03:15-05:00

I hesitated to get involved in this conversation because I thought the original poster was trying to provide some pre-holiday humor to the group. His subsequent comments quickly disabused me of my original viewpoint. SSG Vielle, I totally disagree with the concept for many of the reasons that other commentators have ably stated. My major objection to the idea because I believe that it would be prejudical to unit readiness and discipline. One could start with profiles then move to those soldiers who have less than perfect efficiency reports, then those with anything less that expert marksmanship badges and on at on.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 12:20 PM

2014-11-28T12:20:25-05:00

Great question! SM's dodn't come into the military broken, unfortunately things like this happen. I have never once in 21 years been on a profile, but do believe it would be a great disservice to a SM to affect his or her pay because of a limfac. Often people tuff it out or shake it off causing an injury to fester because that's what we do as SM's! We foster an environment where people feel banished or shunned if they are hurt or weak instead of helping and getting them the treatment they need to be successful. As management and as supervisors it is our responsibility to take care of our people and part of that prices is educating them to ensure they don't get hurt or the process on identifying an injury early to ensure proper healing. Don't get me wrong you are always going to have your ten percenters, but honestly most want to do a great job.

Response by SSG Leonard J W. made Nov 28 at 2014 12:34 PM

2014-11-28T12:34:39-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member,
Pardon my response if you find it to be rude, but your question was ruder than anything that I might say below.

Consider this: if you were an employer, and one of your employees were hurt doing a job that you directed, would you legally be able to cut their pay? Absolutely not is the answer that business law would demand. How then, as a staff sergeant, a leader of Soldiers, could you suggest that Soldiers be treated with less quality than the standard civilian employee? Whose side are you on, SSG? Looking out for Soldiers is your job! What if it happened to you? I strongly suggest a deep internal evaluation of why you joined the Army and what you hope to contribute to it in the future. Your motives will now be in question by everyone who finds this discussion post. And believe it or not, this response is just tough love.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 12:49 PM

2014-11-28T12:49:02-05:00

I can't believe this is a question I'm a permanent p2 because of my heart which I can't control I did my part and got my workup the army says I'm fit to stay and that means with the same pay

Response by 1SG Jason Fitzpatrick made Nov 28 at 2014 12:47 PM

2014-11-28T12:47:58-05:00

SSG Vielle, I read this "contribution" to Rallypoint and wonder where you learned to apply the Army values that should be the guiding principles of your Professional conduct. Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity and Personnal Courage. Do you live by the Creed of the Noncommissioned Officer or just memorize it for the promotion boards? No one is more professional than I, I am a Noncommissioned Officer, Leader of Soldiers. By my accounts you have no loyalty to the Soldiers that have given more than their body was able to give and been permanently injured in so doing. By your own admission, you obviously haven't done your duty to train your Soldiers and lead by example when singing cadences, or your cadences are so sorry that nobody wants to emmulate you. Respect: This topic alone speaks on your respect, not only for the Service, but especially the Service Members that are entrusted into your "care" which by your comments, I believe you don't care for them. Selfless Service: Put the needs of others before yourself... no you just want to dock their pay. Honor, you dishonor their injuries and sacrifice and their desire to stay in the military with a topic like this. Integrity... I visited your profile... After spending nearly two decades associated with Fort Riley and the First Infantry Division, I can't remember ever seeing the Second Division being stationed there, especially from 2009-2012 when you state that you were there. So was I, as the First Sergeant, Headquarters Support Company Division Headquarters Battalion, First Infantry Division. Personal Courage, I will give you this one, you had to be crazy brave to post this to Rally Point.

Response by SGT Drue Rockwell made Nov 28 at 2014 12:54 PM

2014-11-28T12:54:26-05:00

I am currently on permanent profile, and yet I stay at work often after everyone has left to go home so that I can take care of my guys. I do not believe that entitles me to more pay, but I also shouldn't be paid less due to my knee or spine...I hope that you learn from the other commenters who have obviously got a few years of experience on us both.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 1:54 PM

2014-11-28T13:54:19-05:00

OMG!!!!!!!! Are we really having this conversation or am I trapped in the Twilight Zone? I could see a private asking this question, but an NCO asking it. Really? I pray it was a slow day in SSG Vielle's shop and he was just being sarcastic to pass time.

I'm not into bashing leaders, peers or subordinates. But this the most f**ked up, asinine, a$$backward, stupidest question I've ever heard/seen/read anywhere that I can remember. It's so far out in left field it's making my head hurt and making me want to give myself a face palm.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 2:50 PM

2014-11-28T14:50:58-05:00

No but soldiers who do not qualify with weapons, meet body fat, and fail APFTs should.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 3:14 PM

2014-11-28T15:14:42-05:00

SSG Vielle,
It concerns me that you as an NCO believe just because someone is on a profile or a permanent prolife that they are diminished in some way as an effective leader. The military and life takes its toll on a body. Please keep that in mind before you assume or judge others by whatever standard/mold YOU believe everyone should be in. I did not vote you down as I can see you've been reamed pretty hard as it is through comments and "thumbs down". Just remember no one is the same and you've no idea what service members have sacrificed in their careers to end up on a profile. Politicians are already trying to strip our benefits, we should not have to worry about our own attempting to do the same to us.

Response by SGT Jason Weisbrich made Nov 28 at 2014 3:18 PM

2014-11-28T15:18:33-05:00

While this seems to be a touchy subject, I thought that in fairness, that we should look at another side of the coin. I was on a permanent profile for the last two years I was on active duty. I went through the process of getting evaluated, and the doctors on post attempted to do their best to get me to an outside provider to get me the treatment I needed. Unfortunately the civilian doctors were not to keen on dealing with the fact that they were charging x number of dollars for their services and TRICARE was willing to pay about a third of that. I fought for four years to get the treatment I needed and never got it, but there was no fault on the Army's part. I finally ended up going through an MEB at which point they decided to retire me. Long story short, I got to the VA and the neurologist tells me I should have had surgery a long time ago. Post surgery on my cervical spine, I am doing just fine. I don't see any reason to penalize a soldier as long as that soldier can continue to contribute in a meaningful manner and teach his/her soldiers what "I will never quit" is all about.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 4:24 PM

2014-11-28T16:24:00-05:00

I feel this question was generated based of the 1% who use profiles as a crutch to avoid duties as opposed to the 99% who carry on regardless.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 5:29 PM

2014-11-28T17:29:00-05:00

SSG Vielle, I believe the point you were trying to get across was that soldier's that are not giving maximum effort, that are may not have been injured during Combat missions, deployments, hard-ship tours, etc. You merely pursuing the question whether service members with permanent profiles should spark the Army in reducing their pay is actually absurd. The thing is, regardless of how or when they received their profile, their pay shouldn't be effected. That's basically the same thing as you dictating why they have that profile in the first place. Your MOS obviously dictates that you are not trained to so unless you have a private practice outside of the miliarty or obtained a broad medical degree to diagnose all these soldiers you are seeing with permanent profiles.

Am I dismayed by all the permanent profiles that seem so prominent now... yes and no? I actually have a permanent profile but mine was put in place so that I may continue to run fast and not have to endure the slow pace and pounding on my knees. It limits the distance to which I may run so I don't continue to pull certain muscles that have too much scar tissue and wear and tear. There are soldiers in our ranks that have worked the system and have these profiles so they may do less. What we have to be careful of is assuming without facts. If you see someone that has a permanent profile opting not to do something because of what their profile says then you need to watch them if they are off duty or Organzational days and ask yourself (and possibly their chain of command) if that person is violating their profile. I was actually privy to witness this recently in my unit recently. Always make sure you have facts to back up your assumptions because doing so doesn't allow for the same empathy, mercy, and/ or understanding you may desire or need later in your career.

Response by 1SG Nick Baker made Nov 28 at 2014 5:48 PM

2014-11-28T17:48:13-05:00

Ask MCPO Carl Brashear

Watch Men of Honor!

I did not vote you down, but offer proof. Not many able two-legged men can fill this MCPO's shoe.

Response by SPC Randall Eichelberger made Nov 28 at 2014 5:54 PM

2014-11-28T17:54:21-05:00

Oh its an nco that obviously doesn't understand retention regulations. You're the type of leader that is the reason us good soldiers left the military and chose to seek success elsewhere. This is probably the same nco that believes his Joe's are there to be his servants. Toxic leadership

Response by SFC Clark Adams made Nov 28 at 2014 6:31 PM

2014-11-28T18:31:37-05:00

As a former P-3 holder for recurrent knee injuries requiring multiple surgeries all caused by the 3
ID policy of running on the cobblestone streets of Germany while wearing combat boots, this is a BS supposition! My duty inflicted injuries on me , not my misbehavior. Ask those wounded in combat if they should be punished for the limitations resulting from being wounded?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 8:33 PM

2014-11-28T20:33:00-05:00

No.

You cannot discriminate based on physical ability when it comes to pay. I am pretty sure that it would be an EO violation if you tried.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 9:33 PM

2014-11-28T21:33:16-05:00

Before you ask a question like this, consider being in those shoes someday. It could happen to anyone. We are professional athletes. At 500,000 strong it is statistically impossible that a large group will not be able bodied for 15+ years given the nature of the job.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 9:49 PM

2014-11-28T21:49:32-05:00

No,they should not receive a deduction in pay. Quite a few of these soldiers that are on permanent profile sustained their injuries while deployed, yet are fully capable of performing their duties to complete the mission. How would it look for the Army to turn around and reduce their pay because of that? Being able to do PT does not ensure mission success.

Response by SFC Mark Sutton made Nov 28 at 2014 10:19 PM

2014-11-28T22:19:56-05:00

Obviously this NCO does not care about anybody other than himself! As one who had a permanent profile for over half of my 24years of service. I will tell you SSG that I more that likely out perform you at any task out there and I have been retired sense 2008. The profile limited me to no running AND THAT WAS ALL! For the APFT I did the 2.5 mile walk in under 28mins, YOU TRY THAT! Docking ones pay do to a profile MY A$$ how about docking one pay for lack of job performance! You need to grow up and start taking care of Soldiers and not trying to take their money from them.

Response by SPC Stephanie Oanes made Nov 28 at 2014 11:03 PM

2014-11-28T23:03:55-05:00

No! And I am truly appalled that this even came up! I was on a permanent profile and going through the MEB process, and I was still able to work in our SSA and still do my job! Granted, I don't have a combat mos, but regardless, it shouldn't matter. It doesn't make you any less of a person OR a leader.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 11:16 PM

2014-11-28T23:16:31-05:00

My P2 profile is so that I can wear an ankle brace during PT. I need the brace due to seriously rolling my ankle during the performance of my duties; I couldn't run for nine months. That was four years ago and I'm still hurt, but I still do the full APFT and everything required. And now someone wants to use it discriminate against me?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 11:20 PM

2014-11-28T23:20:59-05:00

It's going to be really tough when you finally realize you don't know as much about life as you think.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Nov 28 at 2014 11:54 PM

2014-11-28T23:54:51-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member It is by the Grace of God that some make it all the way through a military career with no major duty limiting injuries. Almost sheer luck. Think about what the folks do every day.....jumping, rucking, fighting, rappelling, O-Courses, heavy lifting the list goes on forever, then add combat and the mayhem that is associate with it. Holy Crap, it is a wonder anyone stays in past an enlistment.

I have read through hundreds of these responses. And it came down to, if I read correctly, you being upset about being the "PT NAZI"? Holy crap.

Response by SGT Anthony Fryxell made Nov 29 at 2014 12:03 AM

2014-11-29T00:03:15-05:00

How do I respond....SSG Vielle what are you thinking? I have had troops with injuries that were on profile, Did it make them any less of a soldier? (no), Did they deploy? (Yes). So they can not do something that other soldiers can do? (Yes) But as a NCO it your job to have there back when up against the wall and to chew there was when the do stupid stuff. That is why all MOS's have a PULHES requirement.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 12:11 AM

2014-11-29T00:11:06-05:00

With all due respect, I'm voting this down. I think SFC Kristine Erb and SFC William Laws and other fine NCOs here have summarized this quite appropriately. You have been weighed. You have been measured. And you absolutely have been found wanting. Welcome to the New World. God save you SSG.

Response by SFC Mark Sutton made Nov 29 at 2014 12:20 AM

2014-11-29T00:20:36-05:00

By the way just because you have stripes and can do PT does not mean you can LEAD Soldiers.

By the question you are asking it is obvious that you do not care about the Soldiers at all!

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Nov 29 at 2014 2:32 AM

2014-11-29T02:32:56-05:00

What is the RallyPoint record for the number of down votes for a single topic? Any of the old timers know?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 9:26 AM

2014-11-29T09:26:47-05:00

No. Why? Simply put, they are still doing their job.

Response by SSG Dennis O'Connor made Nov 29 at 2014 9:28 AM

2014-11-29T09:28:11-05:00

In my opinion it is absolutely fair and I will justify your question with another question. Would you want to reduce the pay for able bodied SMs who cant shoot 40/40 on marksmanship? How about those who are unable to score a 300 on the PT test? Maybe reduce the pay for Infantry soldiers who cannot earn the EIB? I could go on and on but I think I'm making my point. Let me remind you that the majority of soldiers with a permanent profile have one due to military service. So in essence you want to penalize them for getting injured doing their job.

Response by Sgt Paul Gerhardt made Nov 29 at 2014 9:53 AM

2014-11-29T09:53:47-05:00

I'm inclined to say that it is reasonably fair in that anything less would practically constitute discrimination on the part of a federal entity (DOD), and a violation of our own guidelines.
I'm glad to know this issue is not up for review in any official capacity!

Response by Sgt Paul Gerhardt made Nov 29 at 2014 10:22 AM

2014-11-29T10:22:10-05:00

Let's consider answering the question and not questioning the motives of the SSG who posted it. He's not suggesting such an approach, but broaching the question. Let us not penalize him for asking a question. Suffice to say, it has been answered en mass. I'll shift to another question: What about re-classifying SM's who cannot fulfill their original MOS due to permanent injury? Should it be optional (get working or get out) or mandatory (+1 year on contract? -Get to work pushing paper)?

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 11:05 AM

2014-11-29T11:05:01-05:00

Although it sometimes is frustrating that a few Soldiers may take advantage of the profile system, it is clear that a reduction in pay would not be appropriate. Typically I get between 297-300 on my APFT and enjoy doing fitness on my own, integrating with my Soldiers during their PRT sessions. Most Soldiers on profile do want to fix the issue and get off profile. The problem with some is they need constant direct supervision during physical training to ensure they are doing the exercises they are able to. This is best facilitated by finding some high speed, yet compassionate NCOs that you can break the profiles into groups IAW their ability (e.g.. Put all the non runners together). There are exercises that you can focus on that are basically physical therapy and a Soldier can recover from an injury without minimizing their activity, which could lead to weight problems.

I think the most important thing about 'Special Population' PT is to NOT let the profilers do PT on their own as they often migrate towards the gym and ironically flop into their cars prior to getting to the gym; those are the Soldiers that will continue on profile.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 11:05 AM

2014-11-29T11:05:05-05:00

The concept that a soldier should receive reduced pay simply because he or she has become injured and not able to fully perform all of his or her duties is absolutely ridiculous.

How on God's green earth could you even think about proposing something like that? Did you miss that section of the NCO creed? "I know my soldiers, and will always place their needs above my own". As a noncommissioned officer, EVERY soldier -- peer and subordinate alike may look to you for purpose, direction, and motivation. Making a statement such as you have is not only ill-conceived, but extremely disquieting and demotivational and makes me seriously question your discipline and integrity as a leader and professional ( I use the terms "professional" and "leader" loosely ). I would suggest that you strongly reconsider your stance across your military career and just what your priorities are.

Now with that being said... In your defense, if your proposal was guided by the intent to reduce the number of soldiers malingering, then I maybe could see some of where you might be coming from but there is a much different and more effective means of regulating malingering within the ranks.

It's called MEB.

Now granted, this is not without it's trade-offs. If a soldier is in fact malingering, there is a good chance that on scrutiny the MEB will catch it during records review and ultimately deny the MEB process from continuing. In the long run, while the soldier may be able to ride a profile in the short term, ultimately they will get caught by MEB review and can be subject to charges under the UCMJ for Malingering. In such case I would recommend to the chain of command for a chapter at that point. If their NCO has done his job correctly there should already be a sufficiently thick packet to justify that action. Even if this does not happen and the soldier is MEB'd, the VA still retains the option to review and adjust or cancel benefits and that individual would face criminal prosecution for defrauding the government.

In the inverse scenario, lets say the soldier gets processed for chapter by MEB for a legitimate injury. No blood, no foul -- drive on. That soldier is taken care of.

The system is designed to work, if we allow it to. The rules are in place for a reason. You can not propose a "one size fits all" solution to an issue like this and expect it to be well received. To many leaders in today's ranks are zeroed in on a small piece of the puzzle rather than stepping back and looking at the larger picture. Use the systems that have been put in place and made available to you for that purpose. Be a dynamic and proactive leader -- in short, do your job.

That is all.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 11:16 AM

2014-11-29T11:16:35-05:00

All I can say is, wow! That is one of the worst things I've ever seen printed about active military personnel by a person in the military. It's bad enough that some have service related injuries and that the average SM makes a lot less than their civilian counterparts, but you would actually cut their pay further. With that attitude, I would have to say, you don't belong in that uniform, james.

Response by SFC Joe Duncan made Nov 29 at 2014 11:19 AM

2014-11-29T11:19:06-05:00

PT is not everything, what about leading Soldiers and being strong in other areas? If Soldiers get hurt in the line of duty and have to be on permanent profile, that is not a reason to reduce one's pay.

Response by MSG Michael Graham made Nov 29 at 2014 11:19 AM

2014-11-29T11:19:36-05:00

I understand your question and think about a lot of people I knew over the years with a permanent profile who could no longer do the requirements of their MOS yet the Chain of Command would not remove them due to personnel shortages. Some will use their profile in a way that creates animosity and negativity within the ranks. Simply put, they must be processed quickly and carefully through the system and either get healthier, get a new MOS, or get out. I, however, had a permanent profile for my last 15 years (2 fractured vertebrae and a slipped disc). It never defined me nor my work ethic. The only thing I could no longer do is run on hard surfaces or do the sit-ups for APFT (which have been proven to be extremely bad for your spine, more on that some other time). I always maxed my push-ups and usually walked the 2.5 mile in under 30 minutes. Pay them less - NO! Ensuring they are processed through the medical system within a given time frame - definitely!

Response by SSG Peter Ludlum made Nov 29 at 2014 12:37 PM

2014-11-29T12:37:03-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member I have never down voted anyone until now. I am personally offended and am very curious what kind of chain of command and NCO Leadership you have had. I urge you to visit any of the Rehab floors of the military hospitals and then tell me they deserve less pay than you? Your NCO Leadership has failed you. Remember when you point fingers you have 3 more pointing back at you. Do not ever think you know until you walked a mile in their shoes. I usually will not be so angry about ignorance but this is something near and dear to my heart.

Response by MSG Arthur Whiteside made Nov 29 at 2014 1:18 PM

2014-11-29T13:18:13-05:00

There are many variables that are considered when you talk about total Soldier quality. Physical fitness is but one of the tenants that "may" make a Soldier stand out from their peers. There are many others. You could also ask: "Should Soldiers without at least a 2-year degree get paid less", or "Should Soldiers who exceed the Army Weight Standard receive less pay - even though they exceed APFT standards?" None of those are reasons to withhold anyone's pay; for reasons that may be no fault of their own. There are Wounded Warriors who remain on active duty - with permanent profiles - that would be affected unless a host of exemptions were put in place; then it wouldn't be worth it. There is no "one-side" to the story. Should we question your ability to lead just because you made a spelling error (personal vs personnel)? I would think not.

Response by SPC Chelsea Fernandez made Nov 29 at 2014 2:00 PM

2014-11-29T14:00:09-05:00

I take personal offense to this because I never had to disagree on a question before and the fact that I'm one of those Soldiers. I feel if I'm hurt I'm hurt. I'm not going to push through the pain and injure myself for no one. You cant really give Soldiers reduce pay just because they are on permanent profile. The only they can suggest medically chapter out depending on their medical condition.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Nov 29 at 2014 4:58 PM

2014-11-29T16:58:15-05:00

Please take time to look over this thread from our very own RallyPoint Team......

https://www.rallypoint.com/command-post/how-much-do-you-know-about-veterans-with-disabilities

How Much Do You Know About Veterans With Disabilities? | RallyPoint

How much do you really know about veterans with disabilities? Recent veterans have reported almost twice as many service-connected disabilities as all veterans historically. Why do you think that is?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 6:45 PM

2014-11-29T18:45:44-05:00

I hope that you have a a better reason for this question other than PRT.

I have had two shoulder surgeries with in the past three years due to a deployment related injury. Just because I am not able to do some of the PRT upper body exercises doesn't make me less on a solider for the ones that stand on my left and right. It saddens me to see a NCO asking this type of question.

Response by MSG Greg Kelly made Nov 29 at 2014 7:20 PM

2014-11-29T19:20:48-05:00

No! When we join the military we are in working order and we are injured and something does not work the same as did once before why should that effect pay. If there is a questions of performance the military has performance review boards and medical boards. This question is asking if the soldier who looses a leg but is able to perform his duties and stay in the service should be removed. So an E6 looses a leg to an IED in combat, Army says you can stay in but you have to go to recruiting so a one legged recruiter should make less than one with both legs hell no. I would have given anything to stay in but my injuries were not going to get any better. And for Once the Army was right, my nerve damage is so bad I can hardly walk at times but if I could have stayed I would have as anything but I should not be paid less because I am injured.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 8:45 PM

2014-11-29T20:45:41-05:00

Disgusting...absolutely disgusting...

If I were the original poster, I would look for a way to delete this thread. The last thing I would want is a thread like this representing me to the rest of the military.

Response by COL Terry Schooler made Nov 29 at 2014 9:44 PM

2014-11-29T21:44:48-05:00

They should get docked the same as they do for every non-1/1 NCOER or ACOM OER.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 10:15 PM

2014-11-29T22:15:31-05:00

SSG Vielle

I am not even sure how you can possibly ask this question. As a leader it is out responsibility to take care of Soldiers even if they have a profile. I myself had bilateral ACL reconstruction and had most of my meniscus removed. I myself can not run but however i am deployed to a chat zone at this very moment. Performing my job well and picked out of a good size group for this mission

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Nov 29 at 2014 11:49 PM

2014-11-29T23:49:47-05:00

I don't think so.

Profiles are a fact of life, especially for the infantry. Having a profile does not translate into a soldier being less than fully capable -- there will always be a huge delta between what a doctor says a soldier should limit himself (or herself) to in order to avoid further injury and what the soldier will be able to do to accomplish a mission.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 12:00 AM

2014-11-30T00:00:58-05:00

HOLY SMOKES!!! This has got to be the absolute worst question/idea ever from a non-commissioned officer. Less pay because a service-member is on permanent profile??? Last time I checked, there is NO single person EVER who served or is serving in the military who can do everything. NOT a single one. Like many have stated, this is why we all have our peers, battle buddies, fellow NCOs and Petty Officers. I served 23 years as a Quartermaster and, in all those years, there were many things I was good at but there were also things I was not good at. Every single NCO I have known is like that too. Just because an individual can't always do a full physical fitness routine with the rest of the unit does NOT in any way mean they are less worthy or less capable. Such an idea is an insult and a slap in the face to all those who have been injured from military related incidents.

Response by SFC Dan Trude made Nov 30 at 2014 3:58 AM

2014-11-30T03:58:45-05:00

ALL GAVE SOME SOME GAVE ALL does'nt make the ones that got hurt an lived less of a soldier.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 8:35 AM

2014-11-30T08:35:34-05:00

I have a perminant P2 for a blown disc in my back that occured during my tour to Afghanistan. And you expect me to forfeit pay for this?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 9:23 AM

2014-11-30T09:23:57-05:00

Why would you penalize someone financially for having a permanent profile -one possible related to injuries sustained in the line of duty or in combat operations? If a SM has a medical profile related to age and circumstances beyond their control but are still able to meet the standards and do their jobs why would you want to financially punish them?

PRT ,physical fitness, and appearance are important but not the total definition of a Soldiers capabilities. Sometimes I believe too much emphasis is put on APFT scores rather than overall performance, character, and leadership abilities.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 10:10 AM

2014-11-30T10:10:47-05:00

This is a subject too taboo in today's Army. We all have our opinions, unfortunately they cannot be shared with everyone. Even on a professional discussion board. The way the Soldiers with PP's are handled is better left to the commands and the medical professionals in our ranks.

Response by PO3 John Jeter made Nov 30 at 2014 10:44 AM

2014-11-30T10:44:25-05:00

From viewing most of the responses about this post, I managed to get a grasp on a number of different references that were unfamiliar to me. From what I can gather here SSG, you have a different idea of what "fully capable" and "fair" is from a great number of your colleagues.......Possibly a re-evaluation of viewpoint is warranted (with all due respect)?

Response by MSG Danny Stanley made Nov 30 at 2014 11:32 AM

2014-11-30T11:32:44-05:00

Let's put it another way. You did your job, you did what the Army asked you to do, and through no fault of your own you are now broken. Should you get a pay cut because the Army broke you? Hell no! As a senior NCO on a permanent profile I will tell you that (due to my stubbornness) I frequently do more than my profile allows. I can't stand being "that guy." However, there are plenty of others who have no problem being that guy, and we all know who they are. This is why we have med boards. The commander knows who is malingering and who is not. I have had a med board and my commander endorsed my retention. I have also seen commanders who did not endorse the retention of the permanent profile malingerers. The system will weed out those people, but to suggest a pay cut is an insult to those on permanent profile who do their job and run circles around people half their age. If you have malingering Soldiers on profile working for you then you need to do the right thing and counsel them on holding up their end of their contract. If the profile sets limitations and the Soldier insists that he has more limits than his profile says, then he needs to go to medical for a reevaluation. If the doctor says he can do the job, then work him. If the doctor says he has more limitations, then the commander can have his med board reevaluated due to more limitations being added. But a pay cut or reduction in rank due to an on the job injury is punishment for doing your job. It will result in Soldiers not performing fully out of fear of injury and punishment for being injured.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 11:38 AM

2014-11-30T11:38:36-05:00

I see a lot of comments from people expressing disbelief that an NCO said something like this. To me, it's completely believable as I've heard this kind of thing since I first joined. There is always going to be that one guy, PT stud, pressing his uniform against regulations, looking pretty and brown nosing everyone in sight, being critical of those who don't do as well or as much during PT. Not always, but usually, this person works in an office environment and has no real clue what it is like to abuse your body in the name of the mission or has just been extremely lucky when called upon to do so. "I've never been to sick call!", "I've never been on profile!" etc. Good for you, here's your cookie. Trust me, no one wants to get hurt, but it happens.

Yes people abuse the system and almost everyone here has come across an individual that abuses sick call and their profile in a way that makes it hard to prove malingering, but don't judge everyone else for that person's actions.

I've seen way too many people that pushed through an injury, only to exacerbate it and end up on profile, needing surgery, etc.

It's up to you as a leader to make the best use of your Soldier's and fellow NCOs, within the limits of their ability.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Nov 30 at 2014 11:59 AM

2014-11-30T11:59:30-05:00

Correct me if I am wrong, fellow RPers, but the SSG was asking a question. Whether we disagree with the original post (not follow-on comments from the OP) or not, is that actually cause to downvote? That doesn't exactly make me want to post new topics or reply.

I am not getting into the discussion or intent behind the original post.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 12:14 PM

2014-11-30T12:14:11-05:00

I am torn on this one...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 12:55 PM

2014-11-30T12:55:10-05:00

No Soldier come into the Army witha permanent profile so I dont think that their pay should change. However, I think that Soldiers who have a permanent profile and can no long do their job as it pertains to their MOS should be boarded out. I know Soldier who have permanent profiles and are not doing their jobs yet are placed in a staff position for years just to allow for them to retire. The staff position is temperary and should not be exploited like that.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 1:32 PM

2014-11-30T13:32:31-05:00

Are you serious right now? How about those of you who AREN'T on permanent profile get paid what you make now, and WE get an extra stipend because we're hurt. I was injured in Iraq. I'm not going to make assumptions about your service, but my MOS can't be done at a local mechanic shop.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Nov 30 at 2014 1:48 PM

2014-11-30T13:48:25-05:00

Wow! This question struck a nerve, didn't it? It's the kind of response that might put someone off posting anything ever again. However, if you spend enough time on the Internet participating in discussions, you're bound to step in it occasionally.

Although I agree with the consensus opinion among responders that no, SMs with permanent profiles should not be penalized in their paychecks, I am not inclined to view the question itself as disrespectful. Rather than berate the SSG for asking, let me relate a brief story...

Our platoon sergeant in BCT had an injury to his right hand that severely crippled his ability to use it "normally". Sadly, I never had the courage to ask him what happened to it. However, even sadder, I snickered like a buffoon along with my fellow trainees as he demonstrated the proper manner of rendering a hand salute with the injunction that "the fingers are extended and joined" while, of course, his hand refused to cooperate. (I was older than the rest and should have known better, but the sniggering was infectious.)

As I have said in many postings, I knew little of the Army other than what I had read in Beetle Bailey comics and was surprised by what I found. The fact is that I remember MSG Dunne with great respect. To this day, some 50 years later, I remain impressed with his professionalism and his evident desire to train us to the best of his ability to be good soldiers and, even more importantly, to survive the war into which we were being thrown. Yes, he deserved every cent he earned and more.

Response by MSG Brian Allen made Nov 30 at 2014 2:15 PM

2014-11-30T14:15:39-05:00

How about no, SSG. I believe there's enough reasoning in the comments. Next stupid question.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 2:30 PM

2014-11-30T14:30:32-05:00

Your logic tells me being a leader is a 6 to 6 job and its core focus is being at PT, participating in PT, and leading PT in the morning otherwise you are dirt bag leader.
I am also understanding that if anyone is not in the fortunate circumstance to like you and superman, because apparently you are not human and incapable of breaking down, we should all be paid less as inferior beings.

Your argument is disgusting and I am appalled that you wear stripes and lead Soldiers with that thought process.

Response by PO3 Brendan "Smitty" Smith made Nov 30 at 2014 2:35 PM

2014-11-30T14:35:07-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member There is a big difference between someone who is malingering and someone who is legitimately injured. If someone is legitimately injured, then they should not be punished because they are on profile. If you believe someone is malingering, well, there already ways to deal with that under the UCMJ. I suggest you look them up but, be careful. If you accuse someone of it, you better be damn sure you're right. If you're not, you're gonna look like a real jerk to the other soldiers in your command.

Response by SFC Boots Attaway made Nov 30 at 2014 2:51 PM

2014-11-30T14:51:43-05:00

This is a very wrong question to pose. If LOD then retirement/reclass if needed but leave the pay alone. They earned it.

Response by TSgt Jackie Jones made Nov 30 at 2014 2:53 PM

2014-11-30T14:53:44-05:00

You find me one NCO (who scores perfect on the PRT test) that has the knowledge and leadership of the SM and I MIGHT agree. Clearly, if the SM is a lazy, unmotivated DB, they should be leaving the service, weather or not they have a permanent profile. Have you heard of the whole person concept? Give it a try. It is what keeps most from judging you as a dim bulb based on this one comment/question.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 2:55 PM

2014-11-30T14:55:02-05:00

SMs are paid for their rank, not their job, duty title, MOS, etc. (With very few exceptions) This is why you aren't "short" just because you have orders to PCS, go TDY, etc. You are "short" at your final out appointment. As an Air Force SNCO, I battle this mentality a lot, and I have to have words with otherwise good performers that think because they are leaving soon. I tell them, "You are not paid to be a (training manager, affiliation instructor, vehicle operator etc,) you are paid to be a (SSgt, TSgt, Airman).

If they hold the pay grade, they deserve the pay.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 4:27 PM

2014-11-30T16:27:06-05:00

SSG Vielle, you are making a fundamentally flawed assumption in your question. You clearly seem to indicate you believe being an effective leader is inextricably tied to physical fitness ability. How long have you been in the Army? I have been in over 18 years and have dealt with the permanent profile issue many times, seeing its effects among subordinates, peers, and superiors alike. I have seen "PT studs" who were total a**holes and extremely toxic leaders, and I have seen those with permanent profiles who never let it slow them down and were some of the best leaders with whom I've had the pleasure of serving. Yes, there are those who "ride profiles" to try and get out of things, but that is an individual character issue, having nothing to do with their profile itself. The Army wears down our bodies at a rate exceeding that of our civilian counterparts ... it's a simple fact.

Would you be willing to throw away the extensive experience and capabilities of those on permanent profile simply because they don't run as fast as they used to or aren't the "top dog" in the PT realm? If we were to reduce or eliminate those on permanent profile simply because they were on profile, who then do you propose would fill the critical role of mentoring and "raising" the younger leaders in the Army to later assume the more senior roles in our force? And yes, if the Army were to take your proposition, then it would ultimately have this effect. How Would you explain to those affected by your proposal that simply because they are on profile, the Army now places less value on their professional capabilities and technical expertise? Remember, they too were once younger and free of physical ailments like you seem to portray yourself as being, BUT ... you too will age and your body will wear down. Turn the question around and ask if YOU think you would deserve less pay when you start experiencing the same physical challenges some of these leaders now face due to their length of service or injuries experienced during operations. And have you even considered the severely detrimental effect your proposal would almost certainly have on the confidence and morale of the force? How many would then seek to conceal legitimate injuries out of fear they would be "cut" or seen as less than fit for their duties? This would clearly increase the risk to the health of the force and increase subsequent costs for fixing more significant injuries / conditions that could have been prevented with more timely treatment had an injury been addressed earlier.

Before you ask a question like this, I challenge you to think through the second and third-order effects of doing something like this. It seems your experience level is hampering your insight on the bigger picture. Another thing to do would be to discuss this one-on-one with a mentor before posting it in a large-scale forum. An experienced mentor would bring many of these issues to your attention before you "put yourself out there" with an unfounded and poorly-thought-out proposal / idea.

Response by MSG Jacqueline Case made Nov 30 at 2014 4:53 PM

2014-11-30T16:53:01-05:00

What is the SM's ultimate job? Is the permanent profile for his physical ability or mental ability? Being on profile does not make a Soldier less than the Soldier who is not. Should the Soldier who is a "PT stud" but slacks off on his job get less pay? I can't believe you even posed this question SSG.

Response by Maj Walter Kilar made Nov 30 at 2014 5:05 PM

2014-11-30T17:05:39-05:00

Wow! Just, wow! Rather than jumping on the fun train here, perhaps I can attempt to spin this a bit.

We are all volunteers in an all-volunteer force, but the day we join the military is the last volunteer decision we make. We do not volunteer to get yelled at in basic training, or get that crappy job we did not ask for, or that crappy assignment we did not ask for, or that next assignment that takes us and our family to crappier locations. We do not volunteer to get shot at in Afghanistan, blow out lumbar disks moving equipment in Iraq, destroy ligaments in physical training back home, et cetera.

We all give ourselves to our nation. We sacrifice personal relationships, alternate careers, happiness of our families and friends, our health, and, more importantly, our lives. We all get paid for putting 100% of ourselves on the line, even when our 100% degrades over time.

Now, if the original post had been "I think some malingerers are exaggerating their injuries and should have pay reduced", maybe that would have gone a little better. To that point, I have dealt with malingerers, and had them removed from military service.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 5:18 PM

2014-11-30T17:18:28-05:00

Should an NCO with the amount of stupidity and lack of grammar that you have make less money than other NCOs? Yes, yes they should. You SSG are part of the problem the army has today. I suppose you discourage your Soldiers (I really hope no one gave you soldiers to lead) from seeking medical treatment. But if you don't and they know how you feel (which is stupid), that they wouldn't seek medical attention for fear of looking like a lesser person your their leaders eyes.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 5:38 PM

2014-11-30T17:38:21-05:00

Two things I see here and show the exact reason why some people are "Sergeants" and not "Non-Commissioned Officers"

1st. After your question SSG Vielle, where have you been? Most people follow up with their questions either to clarify their response or to elaberate on the reasoning of their questions.

2nd. Your title gives reason to think the subject is only about the subject of people on a Permanent Profile. Yet when you start your discussion you say, "....it seems that more and more SM are falling into profile group. ..." Maybe here we could utilize our Creed and know our Soldiers. Are they on Temporary Profile or Permanent? But from your statement it could be taken that Soldier care is not important where you are at since no one knows. Maybe a better question could be, How can we stop Malingering? Many people go to sick hall before they go to the field or before a PT Test and that is totally wrong, unless the SM is actually injured or sick. However, from one NCO to another, to question that which motivates and sustains "my Soldiers" is ludicrous. Also gives reason to suspect that "Competence is my watchword..." has failed to guide the validity of this posted discussion.

Response by SSG Gordon Hill made Nov 30 at 2014 6:05 PM

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Yes they should receive the same pay, did they obtain their profile due to a military related injury and if are they really trying to dodge training or deployment, until you every single profile how can judge and say people should receive reduced pay. How would you feel once you retire and they start saying since your not active duty anymore your benefits and pay are going to be reduced.

Response by SSG Micah Faia made Nov 30 at 2014 8:06 PM

2014-11-30T20:06:49-05:00

I don't have a profile, and I can't remember the last time I've had one. However, I just want to point that Soldiers like to think that when it does come to that time where their body fails them, their leaders and peers wouldn't just look at them as if their a useless piece of meat that doesn't do anything for the Army. Soldiers want leaders and peers to know that an hour loss of PT/PRT doesn't amount to the impact that they can make with their job performance. Why should a permanent profile get paid any different? They can definitely do their job. That raises lots of questions! Is that what you think of your soldiers and peers? That they should get paid less because they can't do PT half the time? I've had plenty of Soldiers who were PT studs and plenty who were not able bodied. I can tell you one thing: it doesn't matter if they can PT or not! Some of the less able bodied personnel did a better job than the studs. SOME OF THEM were the SMEs! There are many cases, but this is my experience....
Think about what you asked.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 8:11 PM

2014-11-30T20:11:51-05:00

Pay reduction for having a permanent profile, really!!! I'm appalled that this is even a discussion topic. No one joins the military knowing that they might one day have a permanent profile. Whether the profile is from a combat injury or from an accident it does not make them anything less. As a service member with a permanent profile I will take a pay reduction when and if I ever stop giving everything I have both physically and mentally.

Just because a SM is not a PT "stud" due to the permanent profile do not label us less than a soldier. That is the job of the Medical Review Board to see if we are still fit for duty or not.

Response by SGT Alfred Cox made Nov 30 at 2014 8:22 PM

2014-11-30T20:22:04-05:00

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...... another NCO asking a Dumb ass question.. look Im sorry.. but I'm calling it as I see it..This Question is just plain Retarded. I mean if you was a E-2 asking this question I could give you some lead way..but are you seeing what you typed. that's why you have 84 dislikes on this question.. Im done.. i can't even look at you.

Response by SPC(P) Samantha Moore made Nov 30 at 2014 8:38 PM

2014-11-30T20:38:28-05:00

Absolutely NOT. Why is this even an issue?

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Nov 30 at 2014 9:06 PM

2014-11-30T21:06:07-05:00

Absolutely not. Permanent profile can still deploy anyway, and I have known multiple individuals who continue to serve effectively despite having a permanent profile. My first platoon sergeant had a permanent profile because he caught shrapnel in an IED blast in Iraq. To this day, he is still one of the best NCOs I have ever known.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Nov 30 at 2014 9:05 PM

2014-11-30T21:05:54-05:00

This question really bothers me -- I want to believe the individual who started this thread may have mis-worded his thoughts and didn't mean to imply what he implied, but I don't think that's the case. This question gets under my skin a bit, as I have been fortunate to serve alongside SMs who had permanent profiles and were fantastic performers, still taking pride in all their actions and responsibilities.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 9:09 PM

2014-11-30T21:09:23-05:00

If an SM does have an Permanent profile, i dont see why that SM should not receive the same pay as anyone else of their rank. As i am also one in that group, i too have a permanent profile for an ripped achillies tendon. i get out and do PRT just like everyone else, i conduct PRT for the people on profile. and yes we are fully capable. We can carry a weapon, we can walk, and talk and wear the uniform with pride. Now some people do get permament profiles just because they dont want to do a portion of the PRT. My profile does not limit me, just to do the walk instead of the run.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 9:09 PM

2014-11-30T21:09:57-05:00

I am a Physical Therapist. I issue Profiles and rehabilitate SM to resume their jobs. If an injured person is forced or feels forced to keep driving on at the same level while trying to heal/correct their injury, they will never heal and will likely prevent them to move forward with their career in the short-term and have long-term negative effects on their life. The Profile has such a bad connotation, especially in the Fires/Maneuvers MOSs. Everyone assumes that people are just trying to get a free-ride. I can guarantee that PTs in the military do not give free passes. We are trying to get personnel back to their jobs/responsibilities, and more often than not the SM is trying harder than we are to get back to their job. I have had maybe 5% of patients trying to play the system. Most of them don't listen to the restrictions I give them, which makes my job harder because I have to deal with constant re-injury. If the threat of loss /reduction of pay is a concern, I'll never get anyone back to 100%.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 10:29 PM

2014-11-30T22:29:58-05:00

If a Soldier is on a permanent profile, the question should be whether or not they should be retired or medically discharged, not whether or not they should receive less pay while still on active duty.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 10:36 PM

2014-11-30T22:36:16-05:00

I personally do not believe personnel on permanent medical profile should receive reduced pay, especially if they happen to be on the profile because of combat related injuries or have been exposed to something while in the line of duty which resulted in their conditions. To reduce their pay after giving of themselves in the service of this nation is an outright slap in the face. It's like saying "Thanks for your service, but we are going to reduce your pay because you got hurt while providing a service to your nation."

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 10:54 PM

2014-11-30T22:54:48-05:00

NO! There are many Soldiers who can, and still, perform at high standards, but have a Permanent Physical Profile. If its the abuse of the system you are worried about, then enforcement of standards, malingering, and Army Values training may be a possible solution.

NOTE: I am not, nor have I ever been, on Physical Profile. I have had various Soldiers and superiors that were, and they've still contributed greatly due to their conditions. --1SG Ingram

Response by SSG William Sutter made Nov 30 at 2014 11:54 PM

2014-11-30T23:54:40-05:00

I find it really unprofessional to think that someone getting hurt should receive less pay. If more and more SM's are getting hurt from something then the chain of command needs to take a look at what is causing the injury and take measures to prevent those. There is training which is mandatory in within my unit called injury prevention through leadership.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 1:41 AM

2014-12-01T01:41:29-05:00

Being that a great multitude of these Soldiers recieved their Permanent Profile due to deployments, I would say that you are absolutely wrong in asking this question.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 7:22 AM

2014-12-01T07:22:25-05:00

So, if I hurt my back doing something military related, yet I don't get seen for it immediately as others have said because the mission go on.. Then 4 years down the road when I can't keep up with you I should get paid less?

Were you drinking when you thought of this?? This is absurd.

I know tons of people who are hurting because they sacrificed their health for the benefit of the mission and they are just as capable to lead and mentor people. Just because everyone can't keep up doesn't mean they are a turd. And if you think this is the case, then you as an NCO need to take a look in the mirror and re-evaluate yourself.

I am disgusted that you even think this.

Maybe, instead of bitching about how people can't keep up or that they are on profile, you should take time out of your day to find out what YOU can do to help them so that they CAN keep up.

I am by all means not a PT stud, but I guarandamntee you that if you give me a task I will perform it to the MOST of my abilities!

Instead of judging, take time to help and mold. Maybe some of your soldiers need a little more boost. How about showing them you care? Talk to them, find out what is going on.... If they aren't a strong runner, help develop a plan to make them a strong runner.

OR, how about you start judging and evaluating your personnel based on the performance of their work and not whether they can keep up with you on a run.

If you don't have a solution, then you are part of the problem.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 8:59 AM

2014-12-01T08:59:58-05:00

No. Doing that would be going backwards to the days when we gave Article 15 to soldiers who got VD or sunburn, or our negative attitudes about soldiers who seek Mental Health care, in effect, forcing them to avoid medical care. We'd end up making the soldier the problem instead of the injury the issue as we sometimes do when a soldier reports fraud, waste, abuse, or EEO issues. If an injury was in the line of duty, not due to negligence, medically recognized and boarded, it's not ours to question.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 9:26 AM

2014-12-01T09:26:03-05:00

22 years of service mixed between active duty and National Guard, 4 deployments and lots of pain. I get put on the rack and get stretched once a week and cannot do situps or run but I can still do my job. That is the difference. Can the individuals still do their job? If so then they deserve full pay, if not then they need to look at changing MOS's to something they can do. There is a lot of knowledge wrapped up in all the Soldiers on a P3 I am sure we can find value in them in a training slot, admin slot whatever. Never take from a good Soldier, and being on a profile does not identify them as good or bad.

Response by SSG Courtney Ellis made Dec 1 at 2014 10:07 AM

2014-12-01T10:07:40-05:00

SSG Vielle the nature of the profile should always be most important in your mind and having said that you fail to realize that even though there are malingerers there are those personnel on profiles who still out shine, out soldier, and are simply outstanding everyday the report for duty. It is that in your career choice there are service member who you didn't show the proper leadership to and know you think they have failed as soldiers because they are on profiles, or maybe you are in a position that does not allow you to lead effectively. SSG remember this the performance of the soldier is a tell tale sign of his/her leadership and clearly you have missed the point my friend!

Response by SFC Scott Crouch made Dec 1 at 2014 10:26 AM

2014-12-01T10:26:42-05:00

Due to my injuries/illness I was on a permanent profile for quite sometime. I went through a medical board in order to be able to continue my service. Because of my permanent profile you ASSumed that I did not do any physical activity. I was able to do just about everything except run and situps. So, for cardio, I road my bicycle (OUTDOORS) everyday, usually going about 25 miles each time at an average speed of 19 mph. I still deployed many times, lifted things I probably shouldn't and led my soldiers once a week for PT and believe me, they generally did not have a good time, but were certainly physically well trained.

To answer your question, No!

Response by SFC Mark Hoover made Dec 1 at 2014 10:58 AM

2014-12-01T10:58:03-05:00

Why would you even ask this Question?
They got injured in the line of duty, they deserve the pay.

Do You have a profile?

Response by SGT Steve Vincent made Dec 1 at 2014 11:31 AM

2014-12-01T11:31:29-05:00

I have read this entire thread, because my initial gut response was to just start chewing your ass out and then rip you a new one, but I wanted to give myself time to breathe and allow for a reasoned response; seems to me that whatever I would have said has pretty much been put out there by several other individuals. I will say though, your response to the SFC below about not getting paid for his no longer working parts made me wish I could punch you in the face, repeatedly. I was going to attempt to be civil, but that comment just broke this grunt's back. Who in the flying f@*k do you think you are, to even begin to think that telling a Soldier that he shouldn't be paid for his non-working parts was even remotely in the same universe as a good idea? I can't see from your profile picture as to whether you have ever deployed or not, or where you were if you did, but that comment shows that you have a sense of hubris about you that is unfathomable, and no NCO worth a damn would ever insinuate to ANY Soldier that they are second class because they have a physically limiting profile. I had a dead man's profile for my last year of service. I never even thought about PT. Hell, the only time I was ever in PTs, was if I was going to physical therapy at the hospital. You see, I broke my neck, busted up my back, suffered trauma to the head that caused me to lose pretty much 18 months of my life, blew my right shoulder out, and a few other odds and ends. I was injured in Baghdad when my gun truck crashed during an ambush. Are you meaning to tell me that since I was seriously injured while deployed, in a fucking firefight, that I should have taken a fucking paycut while I was being medboarded?! This is quite possibly the most obtuse, uninformed, careless, altogether blatantly stupid thing I have seen on here in quite some time, and I have seen some pretty incredibly dense things said on here before.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 12:32 PM

2014-12-01T12:32:35-05:00

not going to beat a dead horse but i feel we are all unanimous

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 1:31 PM

2014-12-01T13:31:18-05:00

So, are you also willing to reduce pay based on testing performance, anything less than "outstanding" in an inspection, or every time a soldier under the supervision of the person gets in trouble?

If the profile allows the member to execute their primary duties, then let them. If their profile prevents them from executing their primary duties, the chain of command may want to look at medical retirement. There's no reason we should be reducing pay based on legitimate medical issues.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 1:34 PM

2014-12-01T13:34:27-05:00

I definitely don't think soldiers on profile should receive less money but I do think your bah rate should be the same whether you have dependants or not and separation pay for married people should also go away.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 2:24 PM

2014-12-01T14:24:15-05:00

They don't deserve reduced pay they have endured a lot over there time of service, and if they have a permanent profile due to stress or injury to the mind or body you don't take their pay away.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Dec 1 at 2014 2:47 PM

2014-12-01T14:47:28-05:00

From the medical perspective, the profile system is in place to protect service members' health from NCO/Officer Leadership that have no medical knowledge and push/drive their members even if the member is "broken". "suck it up, drive on" is ok, but when you are broken, you need to have opportunity to heal. Permanent profiles are slightly different. In almost every case, the member has gone through a VETTED process (MEB, RILO, ect) that has found the member to be RETAINABLE with said condition. This occurs at levels MUCH higher then you and I. If the military finds them acceptable for service with specific limitations, who are you to question that?? IF the military finds them unfit for service with their limitations, they are medically separated/retired.....and therefore, reduced pay.

Response by 1SG Thomas Packer made Dec 1 at 2014 3:02 PM

2014-12-01T15:02:26-05:00

What flipping world do you live in, or better yet what military service are you serving in. You obviously have either never been in combat, and never been wounded, and never seen anyone who has been wounded. If you had, you never would have asked this stupid question. I have been retired for 23 years now, and served two tours in Vietnam. I am really disappointed that a NCO in the US Army would ever think this way.

Response by SFC Scott Martin made Dec 1 at 2014 3:03 PM

2014-12-01T15:03:18-05:00

as long as you agree that Soldiers with a higher GT score than you deserve more pay, then yes....The Army used to have a Skills Qualification Test which was directly linked to promotion points. Being a PT stud is part of the job, not the all encompassing full measure of a Soldier. And just because I once was timed with a calendar on the 2-mile run, didn't mean I couldn't carry the .50cal by myself.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 5:01 PM

2014-12-01T17:01:11-05:00

I once worked for a MAJ who would constantly talk down to me because I could not run with him or the troops. I have two herniated disks in my back and have a P2 profile. He would even act condescending in front of the Joes, with remarks such as, "We should go for a section run, oh wait we can't." He even ripped up my sections PT plan because I wasn't qualified to conduct PT. Meanwhile, I walked the 2.5 mile in 27 minutes and knocked out 75+ push-ups. on my APFT.

Long story short, he would go for 5-8 mile runs while wearing his full kit including IBA with plates and everything else. I tried to tell him he was going to hurt himself, but he just shrugged me off. One day, he came into the office with a big boot on his leg. I asked him what happend and he told me he tore his achilles tendon and the DR told him he may never run again.

The moral of th story here is, karma is a bitch, so watch how you judge others as you just may end up as one those worthless SM on a p2. OR WORSE...

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 5:55 PM

2014-12-01T17:55:10-05:00

There are a lot of good Soldiers out there who still do their job and have a permanent profile. If you believe a Soldier should not receive the same pay simply because they have a permanent profile then I strongly disagree with you.

I do believe there are those who use or abuse the system but I also believe the system will weed them out and adjusting their pay is not the answer.

Experience - will help you deal with this issue as you continue in your career.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 6:50 PM

2014-12-01T18:50:26-05:00

Pay reduction due to permanent profiles. Being in the reserves most of my career, what I have seen is major abuse of profiles. Don't get me wrong I believe that anyone that is truly injured weather on deployment or garrison deserves the same pay and for the ones that got it in combat deserve so much more. I can guarantee that the ones that have a true profile would gladly give up to be at a %100. On the reserve side I would be willing to bet that %80 of the permanent profiles are either miltechs or they are AGR.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 8:15 PM

2014-12-01T20:15:19-05:00

Well SSG let's run with your train of thought ...less pay for those who were broken doing Uncle Sam's bidding.

Ok. You are a Power Generation Equipment Repairer. Should you get less pay when you are stateside because a civilian contractor or GS employee is taking care of the base generators (a job you are trained to do and are obviously not doing ... hence the civilians)? I mean look at all the free time you have to go to the gym and ready yourself for the mobility PRT.

For the record I have a permanent profile from Iraq. I spent over a year getting fixed in a med hold unit and then a WTU. Last year I deployed to Afghanistan where I spent a good amount of time not confined to the FOB. I wore full kit, carried more than a full combat load of ammo for my M4 and M9 as well as two cameras and their support gear. I have a back injury that leaves me quite able to do my job; I am just not allowed to do sit-ups and have to do the walk. I am allowed to run at my own pace.

I'm also closer to my 50's than my 30's.

Mobility PRT is not easy for me, I joined later in life. Between the civilian and military worlds I bring nearly 30 years of experience to the job.

Believe me, I would rather not have been "hurt on the job", but that doesn't mean I can't do the job.

There are many more of our brothers and sisters out there who have stories like mine.

Still think we deserve less pay?

Response by SSG Jim Foreman made Dec 1 at 2014 8:22 PM

2014-12-01T20:22:09-05:00

Lets see...you are wounded in combat, injured on a training mission, or even during P.T. How can we (the military) make you feel worse... lets lower your pay.. This has to be one of the worse ideas I have heard of. Besides I believe it’s in violation of the American Disabilities Act. If your medical board says you can serve then you deserve all pay and benefits your rank allows. Now if it's someone milking the system then his/her supervisor(s) need to document everything to get rid of the individual

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 8:23 PM

2014-12-01T20:23:05-05:00

...

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Dec 1 at 2014 9:13 PM

2014-12-01T21:13:55-05:00

SSG, I can only assume you posed this question in hopes you could elicit visceral reactions for your own entertainment. Petty, immature and borderline unethical at best.

I'll not reward your trolling this site with an emotional response...

Response by SPC Jessica Pemberton made Dec 1 at 2014 10:36 PM

2014-12-01T22:36:31-05:00

Are you kidding me? The military does some major wear and tear on Soldiers. Did you ever think about that? I mean some of those people have been deployed numerous times. Ran hundreds of miles. Wore heavy gear for months. Now some people on permanent profile milk that crap and take advantage of the system. As for most, it is not the case! A reduction in pay for being on permanent profile(caused by your duties in the Military) is not at all right! Now think about it and compare this reduction in pay to an Article 15, you violated one of the UCMJ articles and are being punished. Now how is it fair that just because you got injure while deployed or even in garrison that you landed up on a permeant profile. And you want to say that just because I got a permanent profile that I am not qualified to do my job and deserve a reduction in pay? Now way at all is that right! Yes, some people do malinger at sick call and try to get the best of the system, but no that is not everyone. I don't know about everyone in the military but I will say that most of the hard working and deserving people do actually give a damn even if they are on a permanent profile. I have had and seen leaders in the past that will still give it their all just to show their Soldiers true LEADERSHIP! Now I was medically chaptered out of the Army and for a good reason. But of all people I am surprised that a Non-Commissioned Officer would even be one of the people to bring this subject to light!

Response by 1SG Frank Boynton made Dec 1 at 2014 10:55 PM

2014-12-01T22:55:35-05:00

Boy that's a tough one. When I served, there were so many people on some permanent profile that had no physical limiting injury. They just complained enough to get the dr. to give it to them. They didn't do PT with the company, they always pulled the profile when it was time to go to the field, etc. I felt a lot of distain for them. But I also know that there are people who are actually physically limited due to a service connected injury, and my heart goes out to them. I had one profile in my 20 years in the Army. I took a piece of shrapnel from a grenade while in Granada. I immediately violated my profile because my soldiers were still on mission. As a 1SG of a HHC I had 350 plus soldiers assigned. Most of them were Field Grade Officers. Not one of the O6's ever successfully completed a PT test in the little over two years I was the 1SG. The commander, an O7 always had his aid turn his PT score in. I know he never did a PT Test. Many of the O5's and some O4's didn't do them either because they all outranked the company commander. And I don't know a single E-9 that ever showed up to morning PT because they all outranked me.

I do know this, in the civilian world (not counting Unions), you don't work, or can't do the job, you get fired. You don't get to say, "I've got a profile". It doesn't matter if you worked for the company for 1 day or 15 years, if you stop doing your job, you stop getting paid. Of course in the civilian world if you do really get injured on the job you can apply for Short Term and Long Term disability, but it's a portion of your regular pay.

Having said all that, I just don't see how you could possibly reduce their pay and be equitable across the board.

Response by SSG Samuel Fortune made Dec 1 at 2014 10:55 PM

2014-12-01T22:55:49-05:00

adding insult to injury. I had a P3 profile before I retired. Been retired since 2011. I bet I could still out preform you. You should be ashamed of posting such a question. SM's are falling in to this group due to injury or your poor leadership.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 10:56 PM

2014-12-01T22:56:50-05:00

How in any way is it fair to say that someone who has a permanent profile is no way able to perform their job? Yes there are some limitations, but I bet that there are Soldiers out there who can probably do their job better than you! I have a P2 permanent profile and in no way does that limit me from getting my job done. Yes there are limits to it and they are there to prevent further injury. Yes it says run at own pace and distance, but that does not mean walk every time my unit does a run. Now how is that even fair to compare what you are saying to Soldiers who are facing UCMJ that get reduction in pay? So just because I have a permanent profile I should receive reduction in pay? Yes there is always going tone people out there that abuse the system. Not everyone is like that, but yes there are people that are. And it has frustrated me when I have seen Soldiers try to claim PTSD from basic training on their MEB. Now like I said Soldiers will always try to get the best of the system and milk it for everything.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 11:41 PM

2014-12-01T23:41:04-05:00

This is why promoting based off of being a PT stud is detrimental to the Army.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 1:05 AM

2014-12-02T01:05:04-05:00

While at ILE, units would show up to interview people for positions. The first thing they would do was zero in on my P2 profile and ask what it was for. The only reason they wanted to know was to find out if I was deployable and able to do my wartime mission. My profile is so I can wear an ankle brace during PT and I have no limitations. Should I be penalized? What about the guy who can't do his wartime mission? That's what the evaluation boards are for.

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Dec 2 at 2014 1:07 AM

2014-12-02T01:07:05-05:00

If a Soldier was unfit for duty, the profile wouldn't an option. They'd be put out on a medical waiver. I don't believe profiles should warrant being paid less anymore than corporation can pay a disabled person less simply because of their disability. That would be violation of the Americans Disabilities Act and almost certainly initiate a lawsuit.
I would also submit that many end up these profiles between they push themselves over the limit to accomplish the mission. Pay reductions may keep individuals from giving extra effort; the reductions would be conceived as a punishment for going the extra mile, trying to hang in a run, continuing to drills thru the pain, etc.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 1:13 AM

2014-12-02T01:13:28-05:00

As a soldier with a permanent profile, and 25 years of service, I can only shake my head at such a terribly, under thought out comment.

If all you can do is base a Soldiers worth off of PRT, then you have much to learn in the area of true leadership. Judging from your picture you are the last person I would consider to assist loading the Additional Authorized Items onto a HEMTT Wrecker. I cannot even picture you lifting the 60 ton Snatch block off the ground 2 inches let alone the over 5 feet required to position it in the storage space for it. Yet this old broken soldier can do it repeatedly without any problems. I may not be able to run any more but when it comes to loading out and carrying heavy loads I'm known as the human fork lift. Now if I can do this, then I know there are other leaders out there who also have permanent profiles, who can and do do the same.

I just pray your joints don't get worn out, or you get repeated herniated discs causing you to undergo surgery, or tear your meniscus, or shatter your pattela on a night op, or tear both rotator cuffs, or develope carpal tunnel syndrome from doing your MOS, or because of unknown causes, develope a bone spur in your heal, or a myriad of other problems a lot of Soldiers develope due to simple Soldering. Also, I pray that you develop much more wisdom than you now demonstrate you possess.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 1:24 AM

2014-12-02T01:24:09-05:00

I hate to say this but this has got to be an uber milestone for RallyPoint. The first ever triple digit NEGATIVELY downvoted thread/response/comment. Totally ridiculous.

Response by LTC Joseph Gross made Dec 2 at 2014 7:22 AM

2014-12-02T07:22:50-05:00

I'm not saying this because I have my first permanent profile but because I really believe this. If the service member can do the job then he is earning the pay. That he can't run anymore doesn't mean he still doesn't do the work required of him. In my case, I sit on my backside at NATO and push paper. No one cares that after nearly thirty years, I finally went and got a permanent profile so I'm not hurting myself twice a year when I do an APFT.

Why would you get thumbs downs for asking a question. It isn't like you are endorsing a position!

Response by 1SG Don Stand made Dec 2 at 2014 7:44 AM

2014-12-02T07:44:38-05:00

The most irrelevant topic, soldiers get hurt they're human.

Response by SFC Rick Holmes made Dec 2 at 2014 9:40 AM

2014-12-02T09:40:52-05:00

I'm certain having a permanent profile should not be in question as to what is fair and what is not- especially when it comes to what soldiers are paid- soldiers are not paid enough anyway! I had a permanent profile from 14 years of service and to the day I retired at 24 years! I contracted Degenerating Disk Disease or DDD and was mis - diagnosed via the Army medical community on three (3) separate occasions- I was finally diagnosed via the Air Force Community at Right Pat Air force base. I believe It's important to note and my military record always spoke for itself; I never failed a PT test, I always went above and beyond what the Army expected of me as to my physical conditioning- was involved in weight training, Martial Arts and even instructed Martial Arts at one point and for several years during my military career. I was sure after being promoted to SFC that I would not see another promotion- Affirmative action in full force of course. To that end, the profile, in and of itself, should be reviewed carefully on a case by case basis and of course the medical and overall productive history or each soldier should be taken into account. After I fell victim to DDD, my experience during those painful years was prejudice from my senior leadership- oh, that is of course until they are feeling the same pain! I should note- as a Senior NCO and during PT formation, I found it quite embarrassing when the command "sick calls and profiles fall out", was given- only to be ridiculed again by the 1SG or his "puppy on the dash" orderly room NCO during their review of our profiles or sick slip.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Dec 2 at 2014 11:52 AM

2014-12-02T11:52:58-05:00

I think we have a new contender for an award at RPX 2015. I don't know if I've ever seen this many down votes in one post and I haven't even contributed.

Response by 1SG Mark Colomb made Dec 2 at 2014 11:58 AM

2014-12-02T11:58:58-05:00

Absolutely speechless. Really?

Response by MAJ Dallas D. made Dec 2 at 2014 12:35 PM

2014-12-02T12:35:02-05:00

Wow is all I can say, after over a decade at war we have more and more Service Members with injuries and SSG Private RallyPoint Member your answer is dock their pay. Really! Really! Really! I am honestly blown away by this.

If the problem you are trying to address is the profile riders, that is simple as setting up a company wide profile PT program and enforcing it. We had one in place that I had Soldiers getting off Profile because they would always say, I hate Profile PT, it's harder than regular PT. You just have to be creative with the program.

Now if that is not your thought process and you want to penalize those who have been truly injured, well I do not have anything for you.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 1:10 PM

2014-12-02T13:10:15-05:00

Why would they receive reduces pay? They can still perform their duties like any other Soldier.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Dec 2 at 2014 2:34 PM

2014-12-02T14:34:30-05:00

While permanent profile is usually associated with a physical status, I move that it is more of a mental status for those who "milk" the system. I am not a doctor, physician, counselor, therapist or medical technician of any type, but when I fly into LZ's and see men running around with one leg moving equipment and marking LZ's, I am sure they can have a permanent profile, but they chose not to. There are truly physically limited folks, they have a MOS and if able to do their job, then they do their job to their very best, however when it comes to a physical limitation that may prevent you from doing that job, it is your choice to re-classify or kick it in the can and step up. We have so many amputees on active duty who do not give up and kick it in the can. As for pay purposes, the folks I am believing that are eluded to are the very same that fail to meet other standards and leadership has the responsibility to deal with it in accordance with regulations. Having a permanent profile often doesn't limit one from service, merely a few exercises with the unit typically, what hampers the unit and mission is the one who mentally limits themselves from doing their job that they are fully capable of and therefore restricting the ability of the complete unit to accomplish its mission. We are a team, the DoD team, just do your part and everyone is compensated, but then it never is about the money, if it was I would have bailed long ago.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 2:59 PM

2014-12-02T14:59:17-05:00

Good luck trying to distinguish between Soldiers injured in war/other line of duty and malingerers. Once you uncover that secret then try determining how much money... uhhhh just forget it.

Response by MSG David Johnson made Dec 2 at 2014 3:15 PM

2014-12-02T15:15:47-05:00

I see that you are a Power Generation Equipment Repairer in a HHC. I'm in agreement with a lot of the comments about this question, I signed a waiver so that I could deploy with my unit while on 2 P3 profiles, twice. So do I deserve less pay because I have permanent profiles...hmm, I think not. Both tours with multiple P3 profiles I was able to be a leader for my platoons, I was even in the platoon leader slot for 6 months during a deployment, which part should I be docked for? That I can't do sit ups due to herniated discs in my neck, or maybe I can't see that well due to IED blast over-pressure.
I don't have an MOS that would leave me inside the wire, I was a route recon platoon leader/platoon sergeant in Ramadi on my last tour. We had an almost 50% of our company that had at least 1 Purple Heart.

Yes, there are the ones that 'Milk" the system. I had an NCO that was so afraid of going to Iraq that he did everything he could to get out of going. Another NCO was pulled from deployment because he snored so loud couldn't breathe. The first NCO decided he was going to try that route, I told him I was going to send his squad leader to his appointments, when that didn't keep him from trying to get out, I went to his appointment with him and explained to the doc what was going on and asked if he would be will to write a statement so I could begin charges of Malingering. That got his attention, he stopped trying to get out, but he was still scared. Once we got in country and on mission this NCO came up to me and said that it was not as bad as he thought it was going to be.

So, maybe if you have a Permanent S3-5 profile you shouldn't stay in, but you can still do your job with permanent profile.

Maybe because you don't go out as a grunt, or Engineer, or whatever else combat arm Soldier you should get you pay reduced.

Response by TSgt Tim (lj) Littlejohn made Dec 2 at 2014 4:22 PM

2014-12-02T16:22:30-05:00

It should not affect pay, but should affect promotions.

Response by SFC Tom Mallon made Dec 2 at 2014 4:28 PM

2014-12-02T16:28:49-05:00

yes they should. having a permanent profile shouldn't prevent a SM from performing his or her job. If it does impair them from doing so, they should be processed for medical termination or medical retirement. There are many reasons for a permanent profile, most of which are service related and should not prevent a soldier from serving their country, or doing their duty.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 4:32 PM

2014-12-02T16:32:08-05:00

So a service member gets shot down range and is now a permanent profile or gets hurt on an O course or any other line of duty action, now they should be reduced in pay?

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Dec 2 at 2014 4:45 PM

2014-12-02T16:45:27-05:00

I feel if a soldier who gave all for the mission, beyond their physical limitations, was told they would receive less compensation than the soldier who does paperwork all day because they are not "broken" we might see some rage and "workplace violence" in larger numbers.

Soldiers who are broken due to putting the mission first deserve the utmost respect, not disdain if there are things they cannot do. I think some of my coworkers and likely even my father would not take kindly to what you are implying.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 4:51 PM

2014-12-02T16:51:31-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member I guess it depends if the said profile is service related, combat related, pre-existing or while on Private time. Each one of them qualifies for the same benefits presently. However, if it is service related, or combat related...I believe the Service will do whatever it can to help you stay in as long as you can still do your job. This is what I have seen. I have also seen a lot of SM's perform PT or PRT when they should be on a profile, so in actuality, they are only hurting themselves by not reporting their injury. Are you going for a equal pay for equal work vote on this? Because there is some validity to that idea as well.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Dec 2 at 2014 5:47 PM

2014-12-02T17:47:11-05:00

Is it fair to reduce the pay of a SM who is fully capable of doing their job or has not been afforded the opportunity of a medical board because of an injury or illness that is no fault of their own? If more individuals adopted your thought process we would not have social security or disability pay. Since when does PT performance prevent the unit from completing the mission and a SM from doing their job? Adapt and overcome SSG. Those SM did not ask to be injured/ill, and trust me that no amount of 'special treatment' will fix the disability that SM now has for the rest of his/her life.

Response by SPC David Hannaman made Dec 2 at 2014 6:01 PM

2014-12-02T18:01:16-05:00

There's only one thing that should determine pay... ability to perform a duty. That becomes less and less important as the the mission becomes more and more technical.

Ability to run does not give someone the ability to make a correct judgement call. Now, if someone is 11B and can't get out of an LZ to lead his soldiers that's a different story, reducing pay isn't a factor there, but reclassification is.

Response by SSG Charles Langlois made Dec 2 at 2014 7:43 PM

2014-12-02T19:43:33-05:00

What does a permanent profile have to do with being fully capable? I blew a knee 10 years into my career. Two surgeries and that was as good as it was going to get. Permanent walking profile. Did it ever impede my abilities to complete a mission assigned to me? Absolutely not.

You know as a matter of fact while deployed there were far more "fully capable" senior ranking NOT doing missions like I was. Should they have not received full pay? I mean come on, I was permanent profile and they were not. How do you think that makes somebody like me feel?

And for the record, until I was MEDICALY discharged I could still score higher on pt than most troops half my age. Couldn't hardly walk the next day but by God I still did it. Lead by example. Be, Know, Do.

My advice to you is don't be so quick to judge young SSG. You don't know their story and think of it this way, someday it could be you in that position.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 7:57 PM

2014-12-02T19:57:01-05:00

If someone is on a permanent profile and is unable to perform at the level needed then they should get disability and an early retirement.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 11:30 PM

2014-12-02T23:30:17-05:00

This has to be the stupidest question ever. I've meet soldiers who can get a 300 on their APFT, but I wouldn't trust to find their way out of a wet paper bag. Should this (pt stud) receive the same pay as a soldier that works their butt off every day, an expert in their MOS, a proven combat veteran, and a role model that other soldiers look up to and go to for guidance? Because they have a permanent profile for a legit injury someone can be so narrow minded and ask dumb ass questions like this. Makes me sick.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Dec 3 at 2014 12:18 AM

2014-12-03T00:18:29-05:00

I would rather have a face palm than a thumbs down button to chose for this one.

Response by SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA made Dec 3 at 2014 9:12 AM

2014-12-03T09:12:34-05:00

You know, I've already answered but this question has been hounding me and frankly upsetting me as the days wear on.

During our last deployment one of my buddies was hit by IDF. Hiavface was ripped and about 25% of his skull is gone, add to that an almost severed arm. 18 months later, he is still at Walter Reed, getting fixed and trying to get back to his old productive self.

Thank GOD his family's welfare did not depend on your decision makers ng process, otherwise they would be on dire straits since you would have docked his pay. What with him not being able to partake in daily PRT and all.

Bad call all around SSG Vielle.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 3 at 2014 11:29 AM

2014-12-03T11:29:05-05:00

If they can still perform their job how are they not FMC? I that would be like me saying if you don't have the same deploymnets as me(7), or some one with more you should get paid less. People get hurt in combat, during Pt or just plain accidents that lead to them needing a no runnig profile or maybe no push-ups. I got hurt in Iraq and now have a metal plate in my Arm with 13 screws. Push-up sare out of the question. Yet I stay in shape and do just as much as the next guy and more. Heck I was even slected over others to be an ALC Cadre, and I used to be that guy that scored a 300 on every PT test.

Response by PV2 David Minnicks made Dec 3 at 2014 1:04 PM

2014-12-03T13:04:11-05:00

No, why should someone who has a permanent profile be penalized if they are still a good soldier they can and still do their job? We had an E6 who had a permanent profile but while he could not physically run he ran circles around all others as a systems communications technician. Personally if we were engaged in a conflict I would want him onsite vs. someone who was less capable that did not have a profile to make sure that all communication traffic was able to be sent as well as received.

Response by PFC Kevin Adrian made Dec 3 at 2014 5:09 PM

2014-12-03T17:09:33-05:00

Here is what i would say. I served in the late seventies and early 80's. 79-83 to be exact. I did not see combat, so let me say that when we did PT it was in combat boots no tennis shoes or other atletic gear, other than sweats. If a soldier got injured they went to medical, if the Docs, (or a lot of time medics) found that it would do more harm than good for the soldier to participate in certain parts of PT they were profiled. After my back injury I had a milogram on my spine, I got a profile for 4 days. I would anticipate that someone could have an injury that would give them a perm. profile, though when I served the only one I ever saw was for African Americans and the shaving because of th bumps it caused them on their faces, which must have stung like a bunch of bees. I have a question though for the N.C.O.'s here and well Officers or anyone that wants to comment. If you are on a permanent profile does that mean that you are no longer combat ready and therefore should be discharged under medical. I am just asking because frankly, I do not know. Well thank you ladies and gentlemen for your feedback as always.

Response by PFC Kevin Adrian made Dec 3 at 2014 5:14 PM

2014-12-03T17:14:44-05:00

Staff Sergeant that is not your decision. It would be a decision of the Armed services.

Response by PO2 Chris P. made Dec 3 at 2014 5:30 PM

2014-12-03T17:30:53-05:00

Yes they should as long as they are in uniform and are contributing then yes. If they can no longer perform their designated job then they should be discharged

Response by SPC Travis Grizzard made Dec 4 at 2014 2:30 AM

2014-12-04T02:30:27-05:00

My wife was on permanant profile, and fully capable of performing her duty in the laboratory, in fact she was more capable than others in the lab who had no profiles. While on her PP my wife helped develop artificial blood, helped develope methods of preserving blood and blood products for use in the field, and for shipment to the field, protected the health of the troops in her inspection area, and recognized and reported previously unknown, and suspected genetically modified, pathogenic organisims. And that's just a sample from her 31 years of service, with 21 years on PP.

Response by SGT Aras Troy made Dec 4 at 2014 2:45 AM

2014-12-04T02:45:45-05:00

I don't see any reason why it should be treated any differently than worker's comp in the civilian world. If you are injured on the job, there should be reasonable compensations for you while you are under contract...but once that contract is up, should the profile be a barrier to re enlistment? I think many would say yes, unless it does not significantly affect your job performance.
Maybe there should be more accountability for SMs who injure themselves by being careless off duty (i.e. stumbling while intoxicated), which I think is in a different category as being injured on the job. I'm not saying they should receive reduced pay, but there probably should be a distinction. To be in good health is important to productivity, and personally I think if you aren't taking care of yourself of duty, the burden should fall on nobody other than yourself.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 5:25 AM

2014-12-04T05:25:59-05:00

I was informed of this question on another forum. I think it is outrageous that someone would even think of this. It's against federal law and the Army Equal Opportunity Program to discriminate against a person based of a disability in that context. Some of my battle buddies have received Purple Hearts, Injured on the Battlefield, Injured during Training, who give 110% every day. If a medical board has deemed them fit for duty in their MOS and the U.S. Army. No one else has the right to judge them outside of their performance and merit.

Response by SGT Cort Landry made Dec 4 at 2014 9:20 AM

2014-12-04T09:20:31-05:00

In the private sector, people with Disabilities don't make less money doing the same job as non-disabled.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 9:45 AM

2014-12-04T09:45:38-05:00

I think that this thread is going to be the "run away" topic winner for RPx next year.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 1:35 PM

2014-12-04T13:35:04-05:00

I don't believe SMs with a permanent profile should receive less pay. I see alot of the responses are from E-6s and E-7s with many years of service and of course many with multiple deployments and 10+ years of service won't have the body to keep up with many of the younger Soldiers. And to the young Soldier, yes, stereotyping someone on profile will cause that stigma that it is a bad thing. I do believe there are alot of personnel that ride temporary profiles and once that profile expires change to another body part and so on. There are also those personnel that have 10 appointments in a week. I can see this NCOs frustration with these types of Soldiers, but there is no clear cut way to prove a SM is not hurt or the appointment is not legit and not just taking your dog to the vet, so in my opinion ,no, you can't reduce pay for personnel on any profile. I've had this discussion with NCOs, Officers and Soldiers alike and many think we should go to an hourly pay or something like that to prevent people from making all these appointment during the duty day or riding profiles that keep them from working.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 3:40 PM

2014-12-04T15:40:06-05:00

I would say No only because there are too many variables. I know Soldiers that have permanent profiles and they are some of my hardest workers. What conditions would trigger this reduction in pay? Would that reduction in pay go towards their medical expenses?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 3:47 PM

2014-12-04T15:47:14-05:00

That is a dumb question, because a Soldier is on profile for either a combat related injury or something that happened to him during his/her career. Every Soldier is different when it comes to PT and how their body reacts to it, no Soldier is the same. Honestly some Soldiers are on profile because of something within their genetics. no soldier should lose any benefits because of an injury or being on profile.

Response by SGT Gabriel G. made Dec 4 at 2014 4:04 PM

2014-12-04T16:04:16-05:00

lol I'm waiting for "Flag burning: Yes or no?" as this guy's next topic.

Response by SGT Brandon Baker made Dec 4 at 2014 5:21 PM

2014-12-04T17:21:00-05:00

If they can do their job, pay them. If they're receiving treatment, pay them.

Should they get to where they cannot do their job, or are not recoverable enough to stay in, administratively separate them and let the VA tend to their long-term care.

That being said, I have a permanent profile. I undergo all training required or offered to me, am deployable, and engage in PT. My line in the sand is running, due to a torn PCL I ran on for three years. I run at a bit slower pace, so my knee does not separate.

Response by SGM Jeff Bullard made Dec 4 at 2014 8:06 PM

2014-12-04T20:06:06-05:00

NO, I have a P2 profile I had to have ACL surgery after 15 yrs of being in the Infantry. I get out there everyday and run, ruck and push myself everyday. I realize that many of the younger Soldiers ride these profiles and try to get out of the Army with some kind of benefits but you have to utilize the profile PRT to evaluate Soldiers and keep track of the slacker, they will sink to the bottom.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 4 at 2014 9:17 PM

2014-12-04T21:17:03-05:00

With all this excellent responses to this absurd question, all i have to say is take off those stripes and put on a PT belt and just walk away.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 12:16 PM

2014-12-05T12:16:21-05:00

Fortunately, military compensation is or predicated upon physical performance.

There may be any number of reasons why a service member has a permanent profile, to include injuries in a combat zone. Regardless of whether or not a service member has been in combat, a lifetime of military service will wear down your body. You will lose cartilage due to the stress of daily physical fitness, and your body will degrade after years of military training. It is a documented medical fact.

I think the real challenge with this population of service members is that junior noncommissioned officers (squad leaders and below) simply do not know how to manage permanent profile personnel. That is not an indictment of the backbone of the Army. It just has not been a focus during the last decade of war.

There are many, many very seasoned NCOs who do know how to manage those personnel (like your 1SG or CSM). They exist to assist you with those types of concerns. Seek their counsel and advice, and you will be successful.

Response by MSG Mitch Dowler made Dec 5 at 2014 12:56 PM

2014-12-05T12:56:53-05:00

I broke my back on active duty and had two additional back injuries on active duty. I also had my knees and ankles injured running on tank trails and mandatory10 mile runs. These injuries were all during training and in the line of duty. Damn strait I deserved my full pay and benefits for sacrificing my physical well being.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 4:37 PM

2014-12-05T16:37:02-05:00

SSG Vielle, what if that profile is the result of a combat injury?

Response by SFC Vincent Pegues made Dec 5 at 2014 4:58 PM

2014-12-05T16:58:44-05:00

That don't make sense to me at all, some SM give all they can and have injuries that takes time to heal but don't wait for it to heal as prescripted by doctor because we worry about what leadership and peers may think. One thing you will find out is you are a just another number and when your time is just because you re-injury yourself and can't preform at the same level as before because your worry about what others think. You much worry and care about your health because no one else does. But there are bums who just are lazy and just need to be put out.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 5:04 PM

2014-12-05T17:04:47-05:00

Wow...someone must have hijacked his account and posted this for him...go with it....

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 5 at 2014 7:28 PM

2014-12-05T19:28:02-05:00

I hope you don't write your NCOERs!

Now back to the topic. SSG you're stating that NCOs with profiles should get paid less because they are riding profiles, but what are you are doing to change that?

Second, why do you want senior NCOs leading PT? I would prefer them coaching and mentoring junior NCOs, and let the junior NCOs gain the experience needed by training the junior enlisted.

Just Saying!

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2014 2:06 PM

2014-12-06T14:06:08-05:00

Wow, this is a disturbing post. There have been federal laws created in this country to prevent discrimination within the work place because of close-minded thinking like this. Short answer--your IG and EOA would have a field day with this---NO, you should not give profiles less. Should women get less pay because their overall APFT max is less than males? We as military leaders must be progressive and stewards for equality, not the opposite. Quite frankly, this is even more disturbing coming from an African-American leader. We wouldn't have a lot of freedoms in this country if the right people had your way of thinking! I challenge you to take an inward look at yourself and way of thinking, SSG!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2014 2:56 PM

2014-12-06T14:56:07-05:00

I think that to achieve -121 most of those people understood the why or why not...but that doesn't change the intellectual categorization of the question.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 6 at 2014 4:47 PM

2014-12-06T16:47:04-05:00

For the first part, the American Disabilities Act prohibits you from taking any adverse action against individuals who have an injury that limits their abilities.
http://www.militaryonesource.mil/wounded-warrior/family-impacts?content_id=267383
http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/disability/ada.htm

For the second part, I believe it is an NCOs responsibility to monitor subordinates and ensure that acts such as malingering and dereliction of duty are not present. If many individuals are receiving temporary profiles from the same source then, at the Commander's discretion, the individual may be evaluated by an impartial third party to verify the claims. At this point I would also recommend contacting JAG to assist with processing the results.

If permanent profiles are present, then referencing AR 40-501 is necessary. There are four critical things to remember:
Those Soldiers (active duty and USAR/ARNG) who meet retention standards but have at least a 3 or 4 PULHES serial will be referred to a Medical MOS Retention Board (MMRB) in accordance with AR 600–60, unless waived by the MMRB convening authority.
All temporary profiles greater than 30 days and all permanent profiles must be completed
electronically. If electronic profiling is available, an electronic DA Form 3349 will be used for all profiles over 30 days duration.
The Soldier’s commander may also request a review of a permanent profile, in accordance with paragraph 7–12b.
Items 12, 13, and 14. Name and signature of approving authority and date reviewed. The approving authority will be designated by the MTF commander. (In the case of RC Soldiers not on active duty, see para 7–8f.) The approving authority for permanent “3” or “4” profiles must be a physician. If the approving authority does not concur with the profiling officer recommendation, the MTF commander will make the final decision.
If the Soldier’s commander believes the Soldier cannot perform within the limits of the permanent profile, the commander will request reconsideration of the profile by the profiling physician. Reconsideration must be accomplished by the profiling officer, who will either amend the profile or revalidate the profile as appropriate. Commanders may also request a review of temporary profiles.

The 5-year review rule went away in 2010, instead being replaced by language that allows a Commander to request a review AT ANY TIME.

If you are concerned that individuals do not have a valid profile, are manipulating the process, or are unable to continue service then an MEB or MMRB needs to be requested. If the concern is simply about paying individuals who have a valid disability, then the answer is simple: the Army maintains a zero tolerance policy for discrimination, no exceptions.

Respectfully,
Mr. Hurst

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Dec 22 at 2014 11:39 PM

2014-12-22T23:39:47-05:00

I don't think they should recieve less pay but should be briefed they might miss out on important classes or schools like NCOES or oppurtunities to attend courses like AA or AB.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2014 11:46 AM

2014-12-28T11:46:14-05:00

SSG V,

First of all, this is a stupid question. BTW, you are a generator mechanic and it took you 12 years to make SSG. You need to put your efforts into avoiding the QMP board instead of asking dumb questions on Rallypoint.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2014 4:55 PM

2014-12-28T16:55:36-05:00

I never believed there were stupid questions in the Army, that is, until now. I can only hope this is isolated thought, for which is brought on by the consumption of excessive amounts of alcohol. I highly doubt this scenario, but my hopes are still there.

To be honest, if you belonged to me, I would seriously contemplate reflecting this type of toxic leadership on your NCOER. This, in contrary to me belief of ownership of my subordinate(s) evaluations and a direct reflection of my own leadership. SMH

Response by SSG Stephen Arnold made Dec 28 at 2014 10:15 PM

2014-12-28T22:15:31-05:00

If the profile is not severe enough to require discharge, then why should there be any reduction while STILL SERVING.

I served with an E7 who had a permanent profile that restricted some participation in group physical activities. He was one of the best NCOs I ever served with and still managed to complete missions. How was he hurt? Two auto rotations and a crash in helicopters while serving in EOD. His profile required an MOS change to ordnance specialist, yet he served effectively until retirement. He is the only SM I maintained contact with after I separated. Personal example: I eventually had a permanent profile myself. It was very restricting : "run at own pace". ;)

I got it because of a recurring knee problem with a very long name that results from running long distances on hard surfaces. It was exacerbated by running in formation.

I still ran formation at times, and I nearly maxed my final APT. Most of my squad did as well.

We had an E7 in my last AD company that was overweight. He was nearing retirement and was threatened with discharge due to his weight. It didn't happen overnight, and the man had served honorably for 26 years. Thankfully they backed off and let him retire at his planned time a few months later.

Don't misunderstand: I believe that we should follow regs. Then again, we also should be reasonable and logical.

Response by SSG Felix Najera made Dec 29 at 2014 4:49 PM

2014-12-29T16:49:06-05:00

I can not believe that this is coming from one of my peers. There is more to being a Soldier that a PRT session. Many Soldiers have given above and beyond their bodies toleration, especially in the contingency operations that have transpired over this past decade, and have sustained injuries that require a permanent profile. Just because they have a permanent profile doesn't make them not fully capable. Sounds like you feel some sort of way because you have to do the endurance mobility PRT session, and they do not. All I have to say is read and live the the Creed of the NonCommissioned Officer, and reflect on the rank you hold and your position as a NonCommissioned Officer. What message does this send to any Soldier who may come under your "care" now or in the future who have or will read this.

Response by SPC Leisel Luman made Dec 29 at 2014 5:01 PM

2014-12-29T17:01:44-05:00

Yes they should receive the same pay. While in MedHold I met a lot wounded / injured soldiers who only wanted to get back to their units. Some did get back to their same units with profiles. Some stayed and served where they could. They should not be berated or held back for wanting to continue to serve. Until you obtain your medical degree and are hired as a DOD Doc all you should do are follow the orders that were written on their profile they handed you. If you are not fully capable of doing this then your pay may need to be reassessed. They should not only be paid and promoted the same but they should be treated with dignity and respect.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Jan 11 at 2015 1:00 AM

2015-01-11T01:00:05-05:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member, you've heard many eloquent arguments as to why profiled service members should not receive reduced pay. I agree with virtually all of them, but I won't down vote you, since your current tally is (-139) with a net (-126).

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 3:12 PM

2015-01-11T15:12:24-05:00

This is an absolutely ridiculous question. I can not believe that a SSG asked this. With all do respect, I hope I never have you as a "leader." I have a permanent profile that says I "may" wear compression sleeves in uniform. I still run. I still perform all my duties. I still train my Soldiers. I do everything that I need to do to perform my job. Tell me how it is that I am not "fully capable" because I have a permanent profile.

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Jan 22 at 2015 12:35 AM

2015-01-22T00:35:07-05:00

I believe that they should get the same pay. I have had three shoulder surgeries and one ankle surgery. I may not score as on the test, but can do my job well.

We also have to see the definition of a permanent profile. You can still do most military tasks but isn't to the point where you are medically discharged. If you are medically discharged, then obviously you aren't getting military pay.

I think this is a good question to ask, since there are some soldiers who are PT studs and feel as though they worked hard to become one and may dislike soldiers who come across as lazy.

So we have to differentiate those that truly are trying their best but can't due to medical issues, and those that really are trying to game the system. The latter should be weeded out, the former helped in their capacity

Response by SGT(P) Kenneth Jones made Jan 22 at 2015 1:12 AM

2015-01-22T01:12:36-05:00

Hooooah on this one. Wow and this is what I have to look forward to becoming an NCO. This is what makes me really think. I know I want to be an NCO and I know I have bent over backwards putting mission first even over my family and I do what is asked and expected of me even in the absence of orders. Why because I hold dear the Soldiers Creed and the NCO Creed. I always put the mission first I will never except defeat I will never quit. All soldiers are ENTITLED to outstanding leadership I know my soldiers and will put their needs before my own. This comment of lesser pay just because of a profile this urks me and I just cant see why no one has taken appropriate actions for your comment SSG. I myself am a P2 not by choice but by a surgical error done by the army when I blew out my ACL in a training exercise. I didnt tell the Army to sever the main nerve in my leg and didnt tell them hey lets wait until after my body rejects the new ACL to treat it. I also didnt tell myself I wouldnt run again and be stuck in a molded knee brace and have to go thru a second surgery to fix the first one. But they could never fix the nerve. Now I use to run 14: 30 on the 2 mile not bad for a 43 year old SPC huh but since then I have to do the 2.5 walk. Now granted I had 1836 to do the 2 mile in but I was better then that and thats what motivated me was being faster then those half my age. Now doing the walk I have 36 min to do it in I could but as before I am better then that I do it in 28. I am a track mechanic on top of that. See this is where your comment is not just rude but and I say this it is not to offend your rank SSG but the biggest amount of bs I have ever herd come out of someone. I dont mean disrespect to your rank. But I bust my ass to prove who I am and I belong. I dont sit on my ass and do nothing or try and squirm to get out of pt. Now you may have your slackers hey send them my way I know how to work their pt so they will get maximum benefit from it. Oh I found out after they found they had severed the nerver that I broke my l5 off from the spine and it slid a 1/4 of the way out and still moves little by little. But I have never and will never let that stop me from being a US soldier or doing my job. But if you want to suggest that we get paid less because we were hurt and permanently injured not by choice how about the Army reevaluates how we promote E5 to E6 and say if not by the first complete year they dont have some type of bachelor degree or at least has already has an associates degree that you get paid less. Granted in all this so you have some slackers police them up check their profile their profile cause they are suppose to have it on them at all times and see what they can and cant do. I would and I do when leading profile pt bet if they have run at own past and distance they have no business in my profile pt. If they cant do push ups but they can do situps we will have some sore tummies when done. Thats me tho others may look the other way but complain about it or make comments like yours. Me I push myself to be an example that just because I have a permanent profile I dont let it stop me in any way shape or form. I also fyi I am working on getting back to running it maybe in a brace but I will be running again and thats a promise. Sorry I know the SSG wasnt directing it at any officers of senior NCO's I do apologize.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2015 12:53 PM

2015-01-28T12:53:32-05:00

I'm on a permanent profile due to 2 ACL and meniscus repairs. I am still fully capable and world wide deployable. So why should I make less than someone who is not on profile? I didn't make the conscious choice of injuring my knee twice.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2015 6:25 PM

2015-01-28T18:25:48-05:00

It's apparent that you're too hard headed to realize and admit that you're wrong on something. with that being said, there's nothing anyone here (seniors, peers and subordinates alike) can say to try to help you and your thought process.

If your concern is that you have Soldiers malingering, there's a process to identify and rectify that. If you, as a "leader", allow your Soldiers to malinger, then I guess you too should receive reduced pay for failing to do your job.

You've continued to use the word "lead" throughout this lengthy discussion. Tell me, how do you lead your Soldiers? Do you only lead the Soldiers who can do PRT with you or do you lead all Soldiers? Do you lead based on APFT score or the total Soldier concept?

I assume it's safe to say that you believe COL Gadsen should have never been allowed to serve as the Installation Commander for Ft. Belvoir since he can't lead a run.

Response by CW5 Jim Steddum made Jan 28 at 2015 6:34 PM

2015-01-28T18:34:10-05:00

It is a questions that I asked when I was a tactical level leader (decades ago) so I do not see a reason to down vote this question. However, after 26 years of military life, I am being evaluated for some physical issues that prevent me from running. Should I get paid less for working 12-14 hours a day doing my job as a technical expert in my field( including deployed environments) because I do not spend an hour a day in a organized run? What happened to total Soldier concept (aka leadership)?

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2015 8:21 PM

2015-01-28T20:21:55-05:00

You guys are all bagging on the staff sergeant but the real question is....should I be saluting a 1lt!

Response by SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. made Jan 28 at 2015 8:57 PM

2015-01-28T20:57:22-05:00

One of the reasons I retired at 20 was due to no longer being able to lead from the front due to various injuries I'd received over the course of my career. I P3 by an orthopedist at Walter Reed at 19 years helped me make I my mind as to what my future held. Fifteen years later, I know it was the right move.

To say a soldier at any rank deserves less pay due to being on a permanent profile is beyond my level of rationale. I guess we should shut down the VA while we're at it because disabled vets like me and millions of others are a burden on society. If we can't March in a Veterans Day parade, they should shoot us for not express ting veterans in a healthy light.

Come on, SSG!

Response by SSG Michael O'Malley made Jan 28 at 2015 10:16 PM

2015-01-28T22:16:01-05:00

As a medically retired Army medic and NCO I am appalled that this is even a question from anyone much less another NCO. Why should soldiers like myself be punished for becoming injured due to the performance of my duties? Should I purpose that every time your performance is not up to par the military turn its back on you regardless of the reason? Line of Duty injuries that force a soldier to receive a P3 profile in ANY category should not be just cause for any punishment. Call it what you want but you are wanting to punish your brothers and sisters in arms for something they couldn't control.
NCO's like you are what give new soldiers reasons to treat our military history like a joke.

Response by CPO Ed Ball made Jan 29 at 2015 9:13 AM

2015-01-29T09:13:58-05:00

I'm of the firm belief that you take care of your troops, troops will take care of you! That said, as a County Veteran Service Officer for the last 15 years, I have assisted many that were put out on a MEB, or opted to be placed on early retirement based on service connected disabilities at 30% or greater. DO NOT ACCEPT A SEVERANCE CHECK!!! Once out of the service, you file for an increase in disability through the VA, if awarded the Severance Check must be paid back.

Those on TDRL obviously have Tricare, education benefits through the Post 9/11 GIBill, and direct access to other VA benefits. I have veterans drawing 100% Service Connect VA disability, their SSDI benefits, and still working part time as productive members of society. For those injured in combat, 10% or greater meeting the eligibility requirements may qualify for CRSC payments as well.

Granted this is a tough decision, only one the soldier can make, but opportunities beyond the military are available. http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?rgn=div5;node=38:1.0.1.1.5
38 CFR Part IV is the rating manual for VA, it shows you the medical evidence required to obtain a certain percentage of disability. Pay particular attention to the Combined Rating Table when addressing more than one disabilities. Then there are Special Monthly Compensation ratings addressed under 38 U.S.C. 1114(k) payable for each anatomical loss or loss of use of one hand, one foot, both buttocks, one or more creative organs, blindness of one eye having only light perception, deafness of both ears, having absence of air and bone conduction, complete organic aphonia with constant inability to communicate by speech or, in the case of a woman veteran, loss of 25% or more of tissue from a single breast or both breasts in combination (including loss by mastectomy or partial mastectomy), or following receipt of radiation treatment of breast tissue.

Today State/County Veteran Service Officers are trained in the development of Fully Developed Ready to Rate claims for the VA. It is a much faster process than years past. I didn't say easier, just faster simply due to the fact the veteran will put all the medical evidence up front via VA Disability Questionnaire Forms, signed by treating physicians which follow VAMC protocol in letting the VA Region Office know the current status of the condition. In theory, the claim submitted by the veteran is placed in an electronic format and all the VARO has to do is review the documents on their monitors and make the appropriate decisions and sign off on the awards. VARO Cleveland averages 140 days. If you file within the first 12 months of separation, your effective date of claim will be not the date you submit the claim, but the day after your discharge. See your County Veterans Service Officer today!

eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations

This rating schedule is primarily a guide in the evaluation of disability resulting from all types of diseases and injuries encountered as a result of or incident to military service. The percentage ratings represent as far as can practicably be determined the average impairment in earning capacity resulting from such diseases and injuries and their residual conditions in civil occupations. Generally, the degrees of disability specified are...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2015 9:19 AM

2015-01-31T09:19:25-05:00

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2015 1:43 AM

2015-02-01T01:43:00-05:00

No! Just because someone is on profile it doesn't mean they can't perform their job at all. I have been on permanent profile since 2012 and I am currently deployed and doing my job. So what if I can't run or do every single exercise like other people, I can do everything my job requires.

Also, if you don't think that someday you might need a profile you need to change your mindset. Being in the military will break your body down, it takes longer for some people but it will happen. Then you will be on one of your dreaded profiles.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2015 2:33 PM

2015-02-04T14:33:59-05:00

SSG James, I was originally hurt on active duty and was med boarded out for it, I finished college and was allowed to come back in the military with a P2 profile, I am an Army Nurse and am fully deployable, well when my shoulder heals from hurting it lifting my patients because the mission had to go on even though I was hurt. I take great offence that you as a leader would even suggest a pay lose for being injured. I have been in the Army for 24 years and I came into a career field that I was the first female solder in my program, I carried the same tool boxes as the men and did my job well but I got hurt many times as many soldiers do. Does that make me a bad leader, I say no because I strive to do better in everything I do and lead by example, I can't do everything a younger soldier can but I make sure they see me do my best. I think how dare you even say something like this. You were likely a fast track soldier who has yet to learn the nuisances of properly leading their soldiers. I have worked very hard to get to where I am in my career and do not feel as though I should get less money because I can't run on an APFT. I have a spinal fusion because of a training exercise and it causes migraines which get worse when I run, does that make me a bad soldier? Maybe you should go back and relearn what it means to lead your soldiers the right way, are you one of those who call soldier dirt bags because they have a profile? I had a LT call me a worthless NCO because of my P2 profile, then he got hurt and found out one may not always be able to perform at 100%, that does not mean we do not always try to do 100% of what we can do. Sorry to any that I might offend but this is a soap box issue for me because I have lived it first hand for many years. You now have 153 down votes that should tell you something.

Response by SFC Donald LeBlanc made Feb 4 at 2015 2:47 PM

2015-02-04T14:47:30-05:00

SSG Vielle,
I know that it may be difficult at times to feel sympathy for Permanent Profile soldiers - however, they are volunteers just like you and all other currently service military members. You should also keep in mind- many of them received their injuries while serving in combat and had no choice in the matter to loose their limbs, eyesight or other capability.

Now if you are bringing up the discussion for individuals who are Malingering - that's a whole different topic. Thanks for the insight, but always keep in mind the other side of the story. Thanks for sharing.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2015 7:34 PM

2015-02-04T19:34:52-05:00

WTH? This question doesn't make any sense. Do you want reduced pay for not scoring a 300? not qualifying with 40 out of 40? Didn't think so.

Response by SFC Cindy Paris made Feb 8 at 2015 11:54 PM

2015-02-08T23:54:34-05:00

I too am deeply offended by your posted question and agree with most of the others that have responded. But I do have to say that I took the time to look at your profile on RP. I can see that you have been deployed several times. So I am greatly confused on how you could ask this question after seeing so much time on deployments. Did you not open your eyes and see what happened to others when you were there? Additionally you must not know much about our Federal laws because the Americans with Disabilities Act requires that you must make reasonable accommodations for employees (including military). The reasonable accommodations is the profile. And equal pay laws require that we must be paid the same regardless of disabilities. So you should be ashamed of yourself.

Response by SGT Nia Chiaraluce made Feb 9 at 2015 11:18 AM

2015-02-09T11:18:56-05:00

This question honestly has me quite stunned. My observation and experience with PRT in actually different than posed in this question. Also, I do not think it should hold any bearing on a soldiers pay when it already affects their promotion points on the enlisted side and their ranking in NCOA and NCOES schools like WLC where the PT test is a part of one’s GPA.
I completely agree with SFC Grudzinski in the context that it is OUR responsibility as NCOs to not only squash the stigma against PRT, but to be the example of how this program can benefit soldiers and deter unnecessary profiles. I encourage own pace and distance profiles in order to gauge injury and progress of my soldiers, I also try and set the example of what you can achieve with injury without a profile. That’s not to say I haven’t needed one in the past, but have been off profile for almost two years now.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2015 11:54 AM

2015-02-09T11:54:40-05:00

I do not think 156 down votes is necessary for someone asking a question to debate... No I do not think they should receive reduced pay.

Response by SPC Neil Hood made Feb 9 at 2015 7:56 PM

2015-02-09T19:56:21-05:00

Some of these service members have valuable experience to relay to young soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. They should not be compensated less because of injuries etc. if they have limited time in the service then process them for chapter.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2015 10:19 PM

2015-02-09T22:19:20-05:00

NO! never

In the case of a faker:
I have heard people suggest some others are faking it.
But you never know just like you never no if that guy that stumbled on the APFT run fell behind but only to pass you by later and blow your score out of the water. You may later findout this stud was hidding an injury and untreated causes him to seperate; all because he was affriad of being weak. There are fakers but never is pay reduced for injury, if the injury is false the proof must be made to remove the profile.

The only time pay is taken is when a Reserve or NG SM is receiving drill pay and VA disability benefit. The SM can not receive pay from both source for the same days he or she is at drill. The SM decides which will be withheld.

Response by Cpl Clinton Britt made Feb 10 at 2015 11:36 AM

2015-02-10T11:36:25-05:00

Most of the active duty that I know of they are trying to chapter out. Just because a person has a profile dies not make make that individual an ineffective leader.

Me being ine of those people I may be biased. Had Malaria for over a year.
Was sick, weak, and couldn't perform my duties as a NCO

Having said that, everytime I tried going to BAS, I was pulled out because the chain of command, mainly my butter bar lt, thought I was malingering.
After that they cancelled a extension and I got a RE4.

Almost died in the field with 105 degree temp got to go to the hospital and then oh shit he really is sick

Ruined my fucking career

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2015 11:49 AM

2015-02-10T11:49:07-05:00

As a Leader who does have a physical limitation, I believe you are approaching the situation incorrectly. It isn't the people who have broken themselves pushing harder to make mission happen that should have reduced pay, those who continue to not perform to standard when they are fully capable should reap what they have sown. Is it not enough that I, as a Leader, having limitations, am still able to push harder in every aspect than my Soldiers for the plain and simple fact that it is my job to lead by example. If you are having issues withSoldiers failing to perform then you should properly challenge them and if they are broken they should be getting the proper rehabilitation to get them back up to fighting strength. So no, reducing someone's pay due to "legitimate" physical limitation is going too far.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2015 11:38 AM

2015-02-11T11:38:21-05:00

ARE YOU KIDDING ME......NCOs with your mentality should be CHAPTERED IMMEDIATELY. .....how could a leader think such nonsense.....THEN be DUMB enough to post it on a LEADER BASED SITE...WOW. ...and you are part of the reason why I am retiring this year. The Army's culture has taken a serious detrimental HIT cause of the LACK OF COMPASSION some of the men and women charged with TAKING CARE IF SOLDIERS posses. It's ridiculous. ..you all are killing the Army I LOVED!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2015 8:29 PM

2015-02-18T20:29:39-05:00

If thats the case then seems your logic should state that your pay would be based off your apft score....and if that were the case then if you get injured you should take a big pay cut....sounds like unrealistic reasoning

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2015 12:53 AM

2015-04-21T00:53:41-04:00

I can't believe that a leader has an outlook like this...You should be able to realize that the human body doesn't last forever and just because you can't do PRT because of something that has happened to them that was outside of their control. With all due respect, this is not the kind of leader I would want to look up to rather use as an example to educate any potential soldiers that may fall under me in the future for me to mentor.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2015 7:43 PM

2015-07-02T19:43:19-04:00

I stumbled across this and had to vote it down. Like every other commentator here, I am appauled to read this.

Response by CW3 Ian Mains made Jul 22 at 2015 7:36 PM

2015-07-22T19:36:14-04:00

This can't be a serious question.

Response by SFC Nikhil Kumra made Jul 23 at 2015 7:09 PM

2015-07-23T19:09:33-04:00

Lol am I seeing that right?? 142 downvotes?! Is there a badge for that??

Response by SFC Nikhil Kumra made Jul 23 at 2015 7:12 PM

2015-07-23T19:12:58-04:00

I went in with a P2 on eyes back in the day. Did my time as a 10th Mtn infantryman, I'd say I did okay... qual'd expert consistently and maxed out apfts consistently. Was really successful during my time in.

I'd say the answer is no..

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 28 at 2015 9:49 AM

2015-07-28T09:49:40-04:00

Why would you want to cut pay for anyone period. Just because someone is on a profile doesn't mean they are not effective to the team. No, we all have a certain MOS to do and all isn't required to be as demanding as others. As long as you are within standard then you should be fine. Most senior enlisted and officers I know That are on profile is from injuries sustained from serving the Army for years and years, so what's the point in cutting their pay. That's basically discrimination against disabilities. EO taught me well but even in the civilian world this would be considered discrimination.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2015 10:22 AM

2015-08-13T10:22:56-04:00

Let me ask you this. If you were driving to work and you were involved in a head on collision from somebody that was impaired and you were severely hurt. Would you deserve a pay reduction cause you might have to walk with a limp for the rest of your life. Does that stop you from being a great leader and knowing your job. Please answer that for me

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 13 at 2015 1:13 PM

2015-08-13T13:13:59-04:00

The answer is simple, doing so is a discrimination against disability. It is one of the protected classes for employees.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2015 5:20 PM

2015-09-17T17:20:48-04:00

I know a few people that are still in the infantry. They limp and they are on pain killers a lot.. they also wear purple hearts on their chest. Now tell me that they should have less pay than someone else?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2015 5:33 PM

2015-09-17T17:33:10-04:00

Well I'm on profile because I grew up in an Army where sick call was for pussies, the mission must go on no matter what, and running through pain was the only thing to do. I served my country through all this pain. Now the question is should I get paid less? I think the question is when you break down from abuse and no one gives a shit, will you take less pay?

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Sep 28 at 2015 4:31 PM

2015-09-28T16:31:49-04:00

Only if personnel with low GT scores receive the same reduction. After all, are they not performing at a lower level than the norm? Intelligence is far more relevant in day to day operations than sit ups after all....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2015 2:48 PM

2015-11-16T14:48:06-05:00

Having a Perm. Profile does not mean you cannot do a PT test. First you must look at the type of profile that it is. I have a permanent profile for my hearing bing shot that does not stop me from doing a PT test. So I should be punished because multiple years of artillery and explosions have hurt my hearing? I am no considered not fully capable to do my job even though I have had TWO commanders sign off on my MMRB saying I CAN DO my job and have been? I cannot belive this is even a thought in someones mind. People get hurt in the military thats a fact. Some worse then others but how should that effect there pay? If they are hurt bad enough and cannot perform they do have a thing called Medical dischage/retirment.

Response by SFC Marcus Belt made Mar 26 at 2016 3:29 AM

2016-03-26T03:29:11-04:00

I didn't break my back and grind my cartilage in my hip down to nothing by mowing my grass.

Response by SPC Brandon Hamilton made Mar 29 at 2016 5:19 PM

2016-03-29T17:19:32-04:00

I think so because a lot of Soldiers like to weasel their way out of APFT's and Training.

Response by MSG Bob Metz made Oct 8 at 2017 5:18 PM

2017-10-08T17:18:44-04:00

Where the hell did you come up with this observation on your part. THE POINT THAT AN INDIVIDUAL HAS A PROFILE - PERMANENT OR TEMP IS LESS “CAPABLE” or LESS QUALIFIED IS AN OBSERVATION OF BIAS AND IGNORANCE IMHO.

1. You observe and measure each soldier on their individual performance to standard. A profile will establish limits for the soldier in relation to their MOS. This is so the SM will properly heal and hopefully return to duty in a full capacity. The regimen of a profiled SM to work their way back to a full duty status is often a more difficult task than that of the healthy SM. 2. Again observe and measure the profiled SM’s performance and ability to accomplish their duties and job requirements within the limits of their Profile. If an SM is abusing their profile it will show. Then you should take actions as a leader to notify the SM and get the individual back on track. I dare say, you should find that the average soldier will work much harder in respects to those areas of his or her job and duties not affected by their Profile. 3. The majority of Soldiers with Profiles got those profiles in the performance of their duties. You cannot dock a soldier’s pay because they faithfully carried out their duty.

I myself served 11 years of AD and 24 years of Reserve duty with Profile. Not once did I shirk my duty or accomplish less due to my Profile. There are established protocols to deal with soldiers that fail to maintain their job performance within the limitations of their established profile, and they are the same as you wou implement for the healthy and fully capable SM.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2019 9:55 AM

2019-04-29T09:55:34-04:00

Wow.....this thread is still alive?