Should prayer during non-religious ceremonies be banned when it comes to mandatory events?

A1C Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 May 2016 23:22:11 -0400

I am an atheist, but I also believe strongly in the right to practice your own religion freely. When it comes to ceremonies, I believe that prayer could be seen as a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment. I believe this because there are many different beliefs recognized by the government (atheism/agnosticism, satanism, Buddhism/Hinduism, etc...) that fall outside of the Christian spectrum, and having a Chaplin lead prayer before mandatory events forces non-believers and followers of different faiths to participate in a practice outside of their own. Is it just me, or should prayer during non-religious ceremonies be banned when it comes to mandatory events such as promotion/graduation ceremonies and commander calls to ensure religious freedom is enforced?

Response by SrA Steve Susumu Monas made May 28 at 2016 11:29 PM

SrA Steve Susumu Monas — Sat, 28 May 2016 23:29:23 -0400

No everyone has there way and path to religious freedom. Must have respect for all faiths. The US Military is a Christian Fighting Force. Remember Christian Soldiers. But to join in prayer of a not her faith is ok. Even if you undecided,atheist, agnostic, or even if you believe in Polytheism. It's all faith.
Have a great Memorial Day Weekend.
Steve (Trex) Monas

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2016 11:37 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 May 2016 23:37:36 -0400

I would love for prayer to be out of mandatory events, but doubt I will ever see it.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made May 28 at 2016 11:38 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Sat, 28 May 2016 23:38:02 -0400

This seems like another case of an individual thinking they're bigger than the whole/organization.

If you complain loud/long enough, A1C Private RallyPoint Member, sadly this will get changed.

I'm not an overly religious person (meaning I don't talk much about it or push my beliefs on anyone), but while I serve, I believe stronger in traditions than personal faith...prayer is a military tradition and if you do not like/agree with it, you don't have to serve.

Response by SPC Corbin Sayi made May 28 at 2016 11:47 PM

SPC Corbin Sayi — Sat, 28 May 2016 23:47:37 -0400

I have a solution. Instead of joining the Army intent on changing it:

1. Accept it, and dismiss yourself from prayer events.
2. Bow your head in prayer, but internally recognize that you are in fact having a 'moment of silence' (this is what I used to do)
3. Convert. Belief is one less burden in life. I have a newfound religion akin to Buddhism. It took some research, but it was better than Atheism.
4. Talk to your Chaplain. They frequently engage with Athiests and their disbelief, they may have other methods for you to cope win your personal problem.

Response by Maj John Bell made May 28 at 2016 11:53 PM

Maj John Bell — Sat, 28 May 2016 23:53:32 -0400

I respect and am grateful for your view on Religious expression. Unfortunately it is not universally held by some atheists and agnostic theists. Every year my wife's employer hosts a winter holiday party. Every year he wishes me "Happy Holidays". Every year I wish him "Merry Christmas". Every year he says that he runs an inclusive workplace, and that wishing people a "Merry Christmas" is exclusionary. And every year, I tell him that I was extending best wishes of me and hopefully of my God. I additionally tell him that his inclusive policy just made me feel uncomfortable and excluded because he just told me that my faith was unwelcome. Just to put icing on my efforts to be an ass, I tell him the etymology of the word "holidays" is "Holy Days". Then we don't talk again for the rest of the night. I admit I do not always behave like a good Christian.

Religion should not be a formal part of compulsory ceremonies. It should never be compulsory to listen to someone's religious expression. But, that does not mean that religion should be banned from the public square or hidden from non-compulsory sight. There is plenty of room for religious expression in uniform at voluntary events where a service member's personal story is part of the event. For instance it would be inappropriate for the government to ban or censor the prayer of a Chaplain at a military funeral at Arlington National Cemetery if the service member or their family requested it. If a service member were asked what contributed to their success in the military or what got them through a combat crap sandwich a brief expression of their faith would not be inappropriate as long as it was not a set up to guarantee that they could proselytize.

I personally find it humorous when someone is outraged by an expression of religious faith in the public square, or they go beyond their legitimate right to hold and express their own belief and feel obligated to attack the beliefs of people of faith. They feel that their attack to discredit is an expression of their faith. It isn't. Its just being a contrarian ass.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made May 29 at 2016 12:31 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sun, 29 May 2016 00:31:35 -0400

Prayer has been a tradition for many years. If you're not religious, then just stop and take a quite break while other observe. Is it such a big deal? I once had a General say to me, "Drill Sergeant, you're pole vaulting over fly shit". And that's my feeling on the subject, making mountains out of mole hills.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made May 29 at 2016 12:40 AM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Sun, 29 May 2016 00:40:40 -0400

Airman Santy,
Since you are an atheist, does it really bother you to have a moment of Silence or a non-sectarian prayer?

Response by SPC George Rudenko made May 29 at 2016 2:02 AM

SPC George Rudenko — Sun, 29 May 2016 02:02:15 -0400

There are invocations done at private events NASCAR for one. Can there be a balance with a moment or prayer/silence vs exclusion vs 1st amendment?

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2016 7:27 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 May 2016 07:27:04 -0400

It's probably not necessary to ban it since these prayers/moments of silence do not officially establish a religion. Chaplains giving invocations are not necessarily appealing to one religion over another(although nearly always monotheist); they're obligated to provide services to all requesting spiritual guidance, secular and non-secular. They are still responsible to commanders for ensuring all have the opportunity to worship as they choose. Whether it's included in mandatory events should handled case by case at commanders' discretion. It's really a no win situation; you can't please everyone. As long as no one is forcing you to bow your head and pray there's no harm being done.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2016 9:04 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 May 2016 09:04:35 -0400

Should the rights and religious beliefs of the majority be stifled for the sensibilities of the minority? Particularly when no one is forcing anyone to pray, nor are judgements passed against those who consider themselves atheists or non-Christian. No where in the first amendment to the constitution was there a mention of a "wall of separation" between church and state. It proposed that the state shall not endorse any particular religion. I doubt that a prayer given at a military function constitutes the state endorsing any particular denomination or religion. This has been abused by many in the secular realm to abscond with the rights of th religious majority. This is frightening to me, particularly since there has been no threat to he irreligious minority from the religious majority.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2016 9:06 AM

CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 May 2016 09:06:50 -0400

As it is presently (and traditionally) practiced, I think prayer at official - and in particular, mandatory - events does test the limits of the Establishment Clause. Because regulations permit Chaplains to recite prayers in keeping with their personal faith, and because 97% of the Chaplain Corps identifies as Christian, few (if any) official prayers are truly non-sectarian, regardless of whether the Chaplain in question omits specific words (e.g., Jesus) or not. This cannot help but imply official endorsement.

However, I don't think banning it is a solution. First, human beings have a strong preference for ritual and ceremony that transcends traditional boundaries. Second, when it's done right, I see some limited value in prayer. Not in the sense of invoking gods or spirits, but rather as a means of quieting the mind and focusing intent. Third, Chaplains have the authority to find and recruit representatives of other traditions for the purpose of serving everyone. Typically, this is only done in response to specific requests for accommodation, but I see no reason whatsoever a Chaplain couldn't arrange to have a representative of another religious identity - he/she doesn't need to be ordained - offer an invocation and/or benediction. An official prayer might therefore be given by a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, or Humanist (for example), as well as Christian, possibly on a rotating basis, and possibly upon receiving a request for just that sort of accommodation. In fact, this is how some civil authorities are addressing the question in response to pressure to remove sectarian prayer from official meetings. I think this is a more equitable solution than either keeping things as they are or banning it entirely.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2016 9:16 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 May 2016 09:16:39 -0400

After reading some comments below, I will reiterate what I stated in my first comment: the 1st Amendment to the Constitution never made mention of a separation of church and state. That has been a misnomer for decades now and used to ban prayers and public displays of faith. And to what end? No one is rounding up children and forcing them to go to Jesus Camp. The government does tax Protestants and Catholics any differently than Atheists. But a narrative has been formed that apparently there is a threat from the religious Americans in our society (80% of the population by the way).

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made May 29 at 2016 11:51 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Sun, 29 May 2016 11:51:34 -0400

I understand your thought process, obviously. I'd only point out that it's been a tradition here for over two centuries, as well as harking from a far simpler period in history when to question such things ran counter quite frequently to both the culture, as well as the mores, of the period, that's all I'm trying to say, honest. The whole question over the past sevl decades had quite literally been beaten till it's been delayed, you know? It's fundamentally irresolvable to my way of thinking and most likely will probably always be that way pretty much, I think, irrespective of individuals preferences, tastes, wants, and or wishes, I expect honest be most eager for your thoughts , many thanks, hope was of use.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2016 11:55 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 May 2016 11:55:39 -0400

I can't say that I know exactly what your experiences have been, but I am very comfortable with prayer at functions, even though I don't practice religion. Most chaplains I've seen are careful to say things like "Please join me in prayer if you are willing" It's not forcing anyone to do anything. If people choose not to pray, then they simply observe a moment of silence while those who choose to pray, do. I don't see why anyone should or would be offended by people exercising their faith. Seriously, is it that much of an inconvenience that you might have to wait a minute or two while some people exercise one of the key rights of this country?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2016 2:19 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 May 2016 14:19:49 -0400

I voted you down because there are moments when I think public prayer is the right thing to do. Perhaps you have not lost a comrade or attended a ramp ceremony. Perhaps, on this Memorial Day weekend, you may consider how many soldiers (including this one) have been comforted by public spiritual expressions. Religion does not, nor should it, fit into a tiny and unobtrusive box that is so dilute as it unable to offend anyones view of anything. Give it a think, Airman Santy. I appreciate the question, and your view, I just wholeheartedly disagree.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2016 3:56 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 May 2016 15:56:40 -0400

It should neither be banned nor mandatory.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2016 12:47 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 May 2016 12:47:44 -0400

I used to have the opinion of, I don't believe in your religion, I am not bowing my head when you pray. It took until a few years ago(I am at 19 years of service now) to realize that the bowing of the head was no different than head and eyes forward while being at attention. It was a position to assume. I didn't have to do anything but maintain the uniformity of the formation. Now I use it as a moment for myself. I am not so self centered that I will take away from someone else what they believe in, seeing as how I am one of the minority. So, let them pray. Bow your head with the rest so as to do your best to maintain military bearing and make the unit look good. Reflect on life, or whatever during this time.

Response by SSG Jennifer L. Smith made May 31 at 2016 2:58 AM

SSG Jennifer L. Smith — Tue, 31 May 2016 02:58:15 -0400

I am a VSO Chaplain and an ordained Christian Evangelical minister. We acknowledge faith in (a) higher power(s) in both the major VSOs and the military because our country and laws were based upon Judeo-Christian constructs and beliefs. I know... This is an active-duty/NG/Reserve military question, not a VSO one, but the concepts are similar as we are dealing with military personnel and mindset.

Therefore, does this mean that one faith is paramount or that any such belief is mandatory? NO, but we hold true to the concept of a higher power of your choice. Therefore, the prayers should be non-sectarian to address as many DoD acknowledged faith groups as possible. Some may not be okay with any prayer at any time but that is not within our tradition or a positive for morale of the faithful. Instead, those not wishing to 'pray' may instead 'keep a good thought for...' If that is too much to ask then simply think about whatever you choose and please respect that many have spiritual faith they hold dear. You definitely have the right to believe or not but those that have faith are uplifted by prayer, even in the most generalized terms so consider it a 1 or 2 minute helping hand for your Comrades that need it.

I think a more prevalent issue is the failure for some Chaplains to understand that their primary job is to comfort, console, and counsel rather than convert. Unless the service is specifically requested for a specific faith group -- such as a funeral, wedding, or worship service -- then the non-sectarian format that is approved and any other is disrespectful to those of differing faith groups or disparate beliefs. Anyone that cannot stop from one-religion or one-religion's-denomination proselytizing when various faith groups are a part of the service should consider being singularly a pastor/rabbi/priest/misc. and not a Chaplain. Just my 2 cents.

Response by TSgt Eric Lewis made May 31 at 2016 7:49 AM

TSgt Eric Lewis — Tue, 31 May 2016 07:49:24 -0400

Even as a Christian, I have thought it strange that an organization that had chaplains representing almost every religion prays only to the Christian God. Most would say if you're not a Christian, but believe in another God, Goddess, or higher power, just pay silently to them, and if your atheist just stay silent. In my opinion, I like the prayer. It makes me feel like at least one person cares enough to pray, even if it's not to everyone's specific higher power.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 8:18 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2016 08:18:24 -0400

I had the same issue as a young airman, to be honest, no there should not be any sort of prayer in the compulsory formations. But here is what u do...stand up and walk out, if anyone gives you shit explain you are standing up for your religious freedom and if they think it is still an issue then maybe the IG should wiegh in. I have been walking out for 15 of my 16 years in the AF and have never had anyone back down and I haven't had to even threaten to bring the IG into it. Oh and btw I'm SF so you can imagine how assholeish and stubborn my leadership has been in general.

Response by SrA Casey Ross made May 31 at 2016 8:34 AM

SrA Casey Ross — Tue, 31 May 2016 08:34:12 -0400

The Establishment Clause bans no such thing, and to suggest the First Amendment prohibits you, I or anyone else from exercising a fundamental and pre-existing right (or not) illustrates a continued ignorance of what it really means. The First Amendment only prohibits the Government from mandating a religious denomination (i.e. Church of England), and banning other faiths. What you are suggesting (banning in any form) only violates that basic right by picking winners and losers. It would be hard to believe that being in the presence of an invocation will cause you injury. If you are an atheist, you don't believe in a higher being anyway so don't bow your head. You should not tolerate your government forcing you to do so, or by abstaining from it.

Response by SrA Richard Cain made May 31 at 2016 8:35 AM

SrA Richard Cain — Tue, 31 May 2016 08:35:20 -0400

You are forced to attend these things? Enjoy the time off your regular nonner job, we were forced to go to commander calls but that's about it. Everything else was always an option because there are more important things to worry about, like getting planes FMC. There are more important things to worry about, but if you are so 8up that you can't stand it, go talk to your supervision, coc, and your shirt...

Response by A1C Tom Rowe made May 31 at 2016 8:39 AM

A1C Tom Rowe — Tue, 31 May 2016 08:39:33 -0400

Young man, you have a lot to learn about the founding of our country. You should have paid attention in class, that is if they actually taught the history. Bout founders believed in "Divine Providence" and our nation has relied on it in times of trouble. Now you have a right to believe as you wish but to say to the Majority you can't do that!, is unacceptable and UN-American.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 8:46 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2016 08:46:56 -0400

The establishment clause states that congress will make no law respecting the establishment of religion. Having a prayer at a government function is not a law respecting an establishment of religion. However, we do seem to be ok with respecting the establishment of atheism as a state religion. It is fine to require you to be at a function where a prayer is offered and it is fine for you to listen and observe the prayer offered, you have not been required to recognize the prayer as valid or change your beliefs to match. Requiring an individual to adopt a religion is violating the establishment clause.

Response by 1stSgt Raymont Johnson made May 31 at 2016 9:00 AM

1stSgt Raymont Johnson — Tue, 31 May 2016 09:00:20 -0400

I respectively disagree. This country is one built on faith. We can't start managing to the exceptions to that faith, the country will go down hill rapidly.

Response by SSgt Thomas Crosser Jr. made May 31 at 2016 9:02 AM

SSgt Thomas Crosser Jr. — Tue, 31 May 2016 09:02:11 -0400

God will be there no matter what. "Thank God this shit is almost over", "Thank God the Shirt did not catch me late for formation", you know that shit happens all day. Much love my brothers and sisters, Pastor T.

Response by Sgt Randy Engesetter made May 31 at 2016 9:07 AM

Sgt Randy Engesetter — Tue, 31 May 2016 09:07:53 -0400

In this country you have the right to practice or not to practice religion. It is Godly principles that have made this country great and only these principles as found in the freedom of the truth will continue to make this country free. If you do not want to pray, don't. But do not infringe my liberty to pray either in public or privater. If the commander decides he wants a prayer at commanders call, then go woth it. If the Chaplain wants to pray over the boys before deployment, then stand aside son. But do not infringe on our religious liberties because you are offended by a prayer.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 10:05 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2016 10:05:03 -0400

As a fellow atheist, I think what you have written is very thoughtful, and to a certain extent I agree with you. As a Air National Guard First Sergeant. I fully understand the importance of religion on many peoples lives and thus should not be banned. However, my personal thoughts as an atheist is that many of the same servicemen and women who rely on the almost always Christian prayer at ceremonies would object to a prayer led by someone from another religion and that I would have a problem with.
In my civilian life, if someone wishes to pray before a school event, a local government event such as a City Council meeting etc., I do not have a problem with that: it is 5 minutes out of my life and I just keep quite and wonder if I left the toaster on. Again, though, these same people would object to a Muslim Imam conducting the opening prayer.
I guess I am a walking contradiction. I am not a card carrying atheist and have very little time for those who are and want to tear down religious monuments, take the 10 Commandments out of a City Hall etc. As long as the government does not MAKE or FORCE you to actually bow or pray to an entity or object, I really don't mind as the goal is to provide guidance to people which can benefit all. I LOVE Christmas, but not as a birth of the Messiah, I just like to the season, and when someone wishes me Happy Christmas I take it in the spirit it was intended, to wish me the best and not to make me believe in a birth.

Response by Lt Col Robert Canfield made May 31 at 2016 10:08 AM

Lt Col Robert Canfield — Tue, 31 May 2016 10:08:00 -0400

There are two clauses to the first line of the 1st Amendment. Unfortunately, many try to enforce the first clause and ignore the second one:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."

The first clause was placed in the Bill of Rights so that the State (i.e. Federal Govt) could NOT establish a "State Religion" as was done in 18th century England (and many other countries to this day). The second clause permits us to worship our conscious as we see fit without interference from the Government.

I am not a "Church-goer" and I am not an atheist. I think it is great that folks worship as they please. Faith gives us a moral code; something that is sorely lacking in today's "popped up culture". If I am sitting at a table and someone wants to say a prayer before a meal; I say have at it. I am honored to be included and it is a right so many have fought and died for----- over and over again. We all took an oath to "support and defend the Constitution". Well guess what? The second clause of the 1st Amendment is part of the Constitution.

The author of the Declaration said it best:
"...it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Response by CW3 Stephen Mills made May 31 at 2016 10:45 AM

CW3 Stephen Mills — Tue, 31 May 2016 10:45:46 -0400

Nobody is forcing you to pray publicly. What it sounds like though is you are trying to force people not to pray publicly.

Response by PO1 David M Burns made May 31 at 2016 11:01 AM

PO1 David M Burns — Tue, 31 May 2016 11:01:19 -0400

Get your sorry ass on the receiving end of an ak 47 and tell me what you think,

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made May 31 at 2016 11:11 AM

Capt Seid Waddell — Tue, 31 May 2016 11:11:05 -0400

A1C Private RallyPoint Member, the First Amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof …"

Neither the command nor the Chaplain constitute Congress, and they are not making a law establishing a religion when they have an invocation or a prayer in a ceremony and this does not violate the Constitution as written. Prohibiting the free exercise of religion does violate the clear letter of the law however.

I would say suck it up buttercup, a few words in a ceremony won't hurt you. Practicing tolerance of others' views or beliefs might even do you some good and broaden your mind.

And at the very least tolerance of others’ views might be handy when the world looks at your beliefs; how would you like it if your ability to express your atheism were to be suppressed in the public square?

What goes around comes around.

http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment1.html

First Amendment - U.S. Constitution - FindLaw

First Amendment - Religion and ExpressionAmendment Text | Annotations Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 11:28 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2016 11:28:46 -0400

This debate will continue, but having them stopped will infringe on my right, or someone else who practices. I worked with Hindu, atheist, Christian, Muslim, etc., and we all had a standing rule: No matter your belief, do not downgrade or infringe on their faith. Many times, I had meals with these men, who all prayed differently, yet, we all remained respectful to each other. Some choose not to pray, they would sit quietly while I prayed, then we carried on. I an not Hindu, but when my old SMSgt retired, he had a Hindu priest doing a blessing. I did not get mad, I watched, listened, learned, and respected the occurrence, to which I may never be a part of again. He was grateful we all attended, even out Atheist coworker found in educational.

Now, when it comes to the whole "happy holidays" thing, I always ask which holiday they are wishing for me to be happy. When they say all of them, I respond with "I only celebrate one at a time, so is it Halloween, Thanksgiving, Rosh Hashana, Hanukkah, Christmas, New Years, St. Patty's, July 4th, Memorial, Veterans, or Labor Day?" I usually get an "Uhh..." or "all of them." If I get the latter, I ask why no party occurred for those holidays.. Which really gets me the "uhh" response.

Bottom line, though you may not believe or practice, I ask that you allow those of us who do, to continue to have our prayer. To many its comfort, blessing, and respect to a higher power, greater than ourselves, giving us guidance and peace as we journey on our road ahead. Our faith is not because we believe we are better, it is because we know we are fallible, and desire a greater purpose with/for our lives.

Response by Maj Roger Catron made May 31 at 2016 11:56 AM

Maj Roger Catron — Tue, 31 May 2016 11:56:29 -0400

We as a nation as well as our military have made many accommodations to give everyone the maximum religious freedom while preserving other's religious freedom. Even as you have stated, atheism is recognized. At some point when all has been done possible to protect each and everyone's rights, it must be decided in favor of the vast majority. In your example that would be to allow the prayer. This country was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs and members to this day are overwhelmingly Jews or Christians. Let's not forget, keeping prayer out of ceremonies where it has long been customary would be, in fact, allowing Athiest to exercise their religion by blocking religious participation. Good question to which there is no textbook solution. Thanks for asking.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 12:10 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2016 12:10:31 -0400

What Clause are you referring to? Explain it.

Response by PO2 Kevin LaCroix made May 31 at 2016 12:12 PM

PO2 Kevin LaCroix — Tue, 31 May 2016 12:12:15 -0400

Depends on the prayer/blessing. There are ways to make it very generic.

Response by SSgt Jeremy Phillips made May 31 at 2016 12:13 PM

SSgt Jeremy Phillips — Tue, 31 May 2016 12:13:33 -0400

This is a complicated issue looking for an easy answer where there is none...

If you were my Airman, I would say this: while you should never be required to participate in a religious ceremony against your will, you are not (and can never be) protected from exposure to religious activity in the US Military. There is a huge difference between being forced to participate and respectfully standing by and allowing others to participate. As a Christian, if the Command ceremony were lead by an Imam I would have no issues with it - I would not participate, but would not feel uncomfortable about others doing so.

As an A1C you are very young in your career, and will find that many deployment destinations will expose you to not only different forms of religion, but many local laws that make practicing such religion compulsory.

When participation becomes compulsory, at that point you should be concerned. Until then, just sit/stand quietly and let others around you practice their religion in the blanket of the security that we provide for them. We do what we do, and sacrifice what we sacrifice, to provide our country the right to EXERCISE freedoms, not suppress them.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 12:24 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2016 12:24:08 -0400

Normally, when prayer is said (by a Chaplain or other clergy) you have an option to listen or not. When I would listen to Islamic Prayers I did not get upset. In the end I would make the sign of the cross, like I always close my own prayers. You have a choice of listening or not listening. Talk with a Chaplain about this and get their take. I would suggest talking to a Catholic Priest or Orthodox Priest (but that is what I am comfortable with).

There is no exclusionary clause in the 1st Amendment. Read the words of the Amendment and you should draw the same conclusion. Stop listening to the ignorant around you (from both sides). No one is allowed to force you to partake in prayer (bow you head, clasp your hands, and so on). However, don't listen to anyone that says the Amendment states there is a definite separation between Church and State. Our Government cannot form its own religion (like England has) and turn it into the National Religion.

What does Religious Freedom mean to you? Freedom from Religion? The SCOTUS have made rulings on the grounds that Atheism is a theological view, or it is a religious view. So, Freedom From Religion should also be Freedom from Atheists forcing their view points onto others and into organizations. However, that is not the case. You have the right to believe what you want and so do I. You have the right to not have to participate in religious events, but I also have the right to participate. There is the conundrum. Who is right and who is wrong? Who's right trumps the other?

I hope you can find the answers to these issues and figure out where the true happy medium are. However, I hope you focus more on being a great leader and learning as much as you can about creating the best environment for your subordinates to mature and grow. Don't fool yourself. You are a supervisor. There are those that are following you now. Cultivate that and grow it.

Response by SPC Joshua Heath made May 31 at 2016 12:39 PM

SPC Joshua Heath — Tue, 31 May 2016 12:39:26 -0400

I agree, there should not be prayer at mandatory events. I have no problem with prayer in any other circumstance and I support those who choose to pray in public, as long as they do not force others to pray with them.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made May 31 at 2016 12:52 PM

SrA Edward Vong — Tue, 31 May 2016 12:52:47 -0400

Prayer may be part of the ceremony or event, I feel that participating in the prayer should be optional, but be respectful at the minimum.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 2:45 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2016 14:45:38 -0400

My personal opinion on this is as follows:
If you choose to pray during a mandated event, be it individually, or in a group; more power to you. However, do not make (or try to make) everyone else participate. As a Hellenic, I do not follow the prayer standards of the more conventional religions, and so I cannot participate in their prayers. All I can do (out of respect) is bow my head and remain silent. But no words nor prayers go up to the gods at this time. But I do not mind others praying during these events.

Response by Sgt Richard Birchell made May 31 at 2016 3:25 PM

Sgt Richard Birchell — Tue, 31 May 2016 15:25:45 -0400

Ban it. Feel free to pray on your own. I never liked God being brought into official functions in the military. Most of my friends felt the same. Not all "traditions" are right just because they're traditions.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 3:28 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2016 15:28:47 -0400

To put this in perspective, let me ask the following...If someone doesn't believe any form of "god" exists, and therefore, rather than feeling "their god" is being left out, merely doesn't want to be asked to "play along"...why isn't just allowing someone to quietly abstain from prayer acceptable? If a Taoist or follower of kali doesn't want to pray to the Judeo-Christan God...then maybe there's an argument...but I just don't see how anyone who claims no particular faith would be "bothered" by the open practice of those who do. The atheists or agnostics in the "room" are welcome to offer their counter-arguments...but hopefully "you" can see why "we" sometimes think the objections are simply part of an effort to remove or limit our practices as much as possible? If that's true...why is this so important to "you"?

Response by PO1 Sean Reynolds made May 31 at 2016 3:30 PM

PO1 Sean Reynolds — Tue, 31 May 2016 15:30:31 -0400

This is another one of those things that chafes my ass. First allow me to say that you are a bigger man then most as your being atheist and not minding prayer for ceremonies.
I've had this debate before and simply, just as you believe, the minute or two takes for a prayer or silent meditation won't hurt anyone.
So ban it, no that's just dumb even if you want to pray to the little green people riding a comet that is gonna hit the Earth...

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 3:52 PM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2016 15:52:52 -0400

U should just shut the f*** up brother believe in what u want to but the majority wants to do it there way so be it i will not cater to just ones need or be policical correct for just on of the majority brother be a biger airmen and shut up

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made May 31 at 2016 3:54 PM

MSgt Wayne Morris — Tue, 31 May 2016 15:54:10 -0400

Myself, I either sit or stand respectfully until the magic show is over for those who believe. Did then and still do but I do disagree with SGM Quick's comment below that if you don't like it don't serve. I know I have been retired for awhile but last I heard it is still the military and not the Crusades.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 4:26 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2016 16:26:09 -0400

What type on Non Religious Ceremonies are we talking about that are mandatory? Picnic's? things of that nature? You dont have to pray if you are not a religious person. If you are uncomfortable with a prayer being said, You can always walk to the door and wiat outside until it is done, or you can stand and give thanks to whichever spirit of diety that you chose... I am not necessarily a religious person, I have my beliefs, but I will stand by silently, and listen or think of what I need.

Response by SPC Kevin Schober made May 31 at 2016 4:32 PM

SPC Kevin Schober — Tue, 31 May 2016 16:32:44 -0400

A1C Tyler Santy I am not religious at all and for my own personal reasons. I am always bored at ceremonies when they did the whole prayer thing BUT I would never think to whine or complain about it because I have too much respect for my fellow soldiers and for my fellow human beings that do want to pray or have a religious ceremony at any function. Sitting their listening to them in no way infringes on my beliefs or harms me in any way. It is not infringing on my right to freedom of religion because they are not brainwashing you or ordering you to partake in their beliefs. I guess if I was in your Chain of Command I would tell you to sit there quietly and respect the rights of the people that do believe because it is not hurting you at all and no one is forcing you to believe in anything but You are suppose to act like a soldier and sit there and show respect to your fellow soldiers. So quit your damn whining or go join the cub scouts. I know when I was in the service if I had ever brought up this point to any of my COC I do believe I would have been in for a long list of duties and had been volunteered for every additional duty that came up until I learned how to be a more considerate and better soldier.

Response by SGT Chris Hill made May 31 at 2016 4:37 PM

SGT Chris Hill — Tue, 31 May 2016 16:37:18 -0400

Should their religious practice be restricted to accommodate your choice of no religion?

Response by SrA James Cannon made May 31 at 2016 5:05 PM

SrA James Cannon — Tue, 31 May 2016 17:05:52 -0400

I think that banning prayer during events (even non-religious ones) violates the rights of those who want to pray. I think it vioaltes their freedom of expression/speech as well as their freedom of religion. I don't think that someone's freedom OF religion infringes upon your freedom FROM religion unless they make you participate in the religion specifically. You standing there and remaining silent does not force you to participate in the religion, but having you recite the prayer or requiring you to perform some other action might.

Response by SFC Don Ward made May 31 at 2016 5:13 PM

SFC Don Ward — Tue, 31 May 2016 17:13:12 -0400

Establishment clause?? Another malinformed liberal in the ranks. Maybe you mean against the "separation of church and state" that somehow or another never made it into the constitution?? That liberal Supreme Court construct that was based on a letter that was written to a group who was afraid that Big Government would try to rule the Church in the same way the King Henry had and wanted to protect the church from that rule?? How many times is God the Creator mentioned in the United States various founding document?/ How many State Constitutions mention the Creator as giving people their rights, not the government?? If you are truly and atheist, with no belief in a higher power, then why get so offended that another does?? Do you get this mad that someone believes in fairies and unicorns??

Response by Sgt Jim Weeder made May 31 at 2016 5:37 PM

Sgt Jim Weeder — Tue, 31 May 2016 17:37:27 -0400

Religion is always a touchy subject. Their are so many that it is crazy, and each say it is THE religion. Being a minister I have found that you have to ask what religion they want to have spoken at their ceremony and go from there. The issue is that that the Chaplin leads a prayer before mandatory events is a hard one, they should try to leave it non -denominational. As the old saying goes "You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but never all the people all the time." Being Pagan I just fill in the blanks when someone is doing a "Christian" Prayer. There are so many other things to get upset about in this life that I just let this one roll off my back.

Response by SrA Viengvilay Xayavongsa made May 31 at 2016 6:28 PM

SrA Viengvilay Xayavongsa — Tue, 31 May 2016 18:28:47 -0400

Only if they allow gay marriage too.

Response by SrA Viengvilay Xayavongsa made May 31 at 2016 6:31 PM

SrA Viengvilay Xayavongsa — Tue, 31 May 2016 18:31:02 -0400

Prayer is a religious ritual, keyword: ritual. That's why bible study happens outside of work, because it's a non-profit organization that has no correlation with the military's objectives (to kill enemies of freedom).

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 6:52 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2016 18:52:56 -0400

I do not agree with mandatory Christian prayers at mandatory events. Having all service members stand, how there hands together and bow their heads while the chaplain does his thing at ceremonies is forcing SMs who dont live that life to pretend.

I sat down with a civilian EO rep to ask if there was a problem with it... Just to get someone else's opinion. She said it's a dumb thing to question. But she's a hardcore goto Church every week and sing in the choir kinda lady so her opinion is probably bias and only semi reliable.

Response by SSgt Jamie Ritter LeBlanc made May 31 at 2016 7:40 PM

SSgt Jamie Ritter LeBlanc — Tue, 31 May 2016 19:40:56 -0400

Respect and tolerance should go both ways or not all.

Response by CW2 Louis Melendez made May 31 at 2016 7:45 PM

CW2 Louis Melendez — Tue, 31 May 2016 19:45:56 -0400

You don't have to pray to Jesus specifically. I've participated in many ceremonies and they usually don't mention a specific God. If you are an atheist then pray for yourself. Not a big deal to me...

Response by SSG Jason Penn made May 31 at 2016 8:00 PM

SSG Jason Penn — Tue, 31 May 2016 20:00:36 -0400

People, military and civilian alike, always get this wrong. The First Amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" meaning it is a freedom of religion, not a freedom from religion. While you cannot be forced to participate in the Benediction (prayer), you also cannot ban it from official ceremonies. To ban prayer at official functions is to trample on the First Amendment rights of those who prefer to have it. As a service member who swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, that means that you swore an oath to defend the First Amendment rights of others. To suggest doing away with prayer at official functions, you are violating the oath that you took!

Response by 1SG Jack Crutcher made May 31 at 2016 8:02 PM

1SG Jack Crutcher — Tue, 31 May 2016 20:02:47 -0400

There is no solution that will ever satisfy 100% of people. This has been a tradition for more years than it has been an issue. What about the rights of the people that believe? I say let the ones that believe keep praying and the ones who don't keep on not believing. But in all honesty I heard a lot of people call on GOD but I have yet heard one call for Satan. Not saying they didn't, just saying I never heard them.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2016 8:32 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 31 May 2016 20:32:33 -0400

Seems like everything would be banned if it were up to individuals and their sensitivities. I never understood why atheists are so worked up about something they don't believe in. It is funny to think how so many folks twist issues. Everyone wants to change history...Christianity was an engrained part of military life years before it was just cool to be an atheist and flip out because someone was offended or butt hurt over something that should not even matter due to a non-belief.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made May 31 at 2016 10:30 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Tue, 31 May 2016 22:30:34 -0400

You can't stand by and think about your day while others participate? What does it hurt to allow others to participate in prayer? Where should I put the band-aid?

Response by SGT Jason Herbert made Jun 1 at 2016 12:42 AM

SGT Jason Herbert — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 00:42:14 -0400

An open prair is open air. You don't have to pray with them but you can be respectful of the time because the prayers usually are asking for blessing, thankfulness and protection of your comrades and friends.

Though I think a regulation should minimize the chaplains prayers to under 2min 30 sec

Response by 1stSgt Ani Stubbs made Jun 1 at 2016 12:58 AM

1stSgt Ani Stubbs — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 00:58:48 -0400

You are not forced to pray. Hearing someone pray does not violate your rights

Response by SSG John Jensen made Jun 1 at 2016 3:34 AM

SSG John Jensen — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 03:34:50 -0400

way back when, when it was announced for duty uniform instead of PT uniform, we knew it was going to be a prayer breakfast, so half of the medical plt showed up in PT uniform to do PT instead of prayer breakfast, this was about '83

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2016 6:58 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 06:58:21 -0400

Most of my military experience around Chaplains and invocations at events have been neutral and not inclusive to any one particular religion. I am a strong atheist, and feel organized religion has no place in the 21st century, and I have been satisfied with what I have seen... At least up until my most recent assignment. Currently, our Chaplains verbiage in his invocations are very indicative that he believes we should all share his viewpoints, and it is very unwelcoming. I have never been worried to go to a Chaplain because they always claim their neutrality, and should not bring religion up. However, with my current Chaplain, I have zero intentions of wanting to talk to him. So, regardless, he is still causing people to be pushed away, and it IS causing a problem within the military. I also understand that the reverse about the opposite situation could be said, but even a neutral prayer, I believe, would satisfy even the most extreme religious people.

Response by PO2 Mike Vignapiano made Jun 1 at 2016 7:44 AM

PO2 Mike Vignapiano — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 07:44:21 -0400

Well, if you ban it aren't you banning free speech? The 1st Amendment doesn't say free speech is allowed only if the speech is unanimously approved. Those there do not have to participate in the prayer but good manners dictate to not to disrupt or interrupt the ceremony just because you disagree with one portion of it. It's like saying the valedictorian shouldn't speak because their speech might contain some thoughts/beliefs that some disagree with.

Response by LCpl Rosalie Young made Jun 1 at 2016 9:06 AM

LCpl Rosalie Young — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 09:06:01 -0400

I understand where you are coming from but the fact remains that the Atheists are few and the Christians out number the Atheists...seems making a rule that favors the few isn't a good way to bring about unit cohesion. I'm a member of a 12 step group and we routinely pray in our meetings, but the atheists just remain silent or say their own affirmation...no one complains because we are there for a primary purpose. Could it be the military needs to look for the primary purpose (unit cohesion) and NOT individual rights?

Response by SMSgt John Clifford made Jun 1 at 2016 9:18 AM

SMSgt John Clifford — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 09:18:37 -0400

Get over it. The Constitution says the government won't establish a religion. However that Constitution is being wrongly used to supress religion. Remember this country was founded by people escaping religious persecution.

Response by SFC Robert Bower made Jun 1 at 2016 11:03 AM

SFC Robert Bower — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 11:03:36 -0400

I think it should be left out altogether to keep peace. Every Soldier can attend mass of their belief if they want to. During memorial service the chaplain should go with the religious belief of the departed. I am catholic but I don't like religion forced on me. It just pisses me off. I pray on my own time aND in my own way. Just because your a chaplain doesn't make you better than anybody else.

Response by Sgt Denise Goins made Jun 1 at 2016 12:23 PM

Sgt Denise Goins — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 12:23:26 -0400

As a veteran & spouse of a retiree, as an American, & as a Christian (follower of Jesus, the Christ) my thoughts on this issue have been ambivalent. The 1st Ammendment & God you the right to choose. That the military tradition lies in favor of Judeo-Christian values may seem contradictory to religious freedom; however, given the authority of both, you have the right to ignore the prayer. But please, do not take God out of the military! We took Him out of schools & now wonder why we have so many killings of our children. Every where we have uninvited God, we have lived to regret it even as we wonder what's wrong w/our society. Finally, my heart aches for you because of your spiritual choice. I will pray you come to understand the joy & peace of God's love before it is too late.

Response by Maj Dale Smith made Jun 1 at 2016 1:28 PM

Maj Dale Smith — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 13:28:10 -0400

I believe God has a place here, as he does everywhere. If you so choose not to participate is a short prayer, than this should be your option. I know it was mine when I was in basic training and going to church was manditory. I approached the squadron commander and made a case against compulsive organized worship. I was granted the option to attend worship or not. I chose not to but this did not make me any less a Christian. The prayer of which you speak, should be non-denominational and would address the spiritual needs of monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism & Islam). Spiritual religions and polytheistic religions would probably agree with the "words of wisdom" as long as it is not prosalitizing. I could write beyond a diatribe of why God has his place in the miliktary. Suffice it to say that God does not need a whole basillica or cathedral to provide comfort. An open field before you engage the enemy will suffice, and certainly brought sollice to me.

Response by Maj Bill Smith, Ph.D. made Jun 1 at 2016 2:15 PM

Maj Bill Smith, Ph.D. — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 14:15:31 -0400

A1C Tyler Santy, As an atheist, why the concern As you do not believe in a god, why or how could it matter. I encourage you to read the Supreme Court Case referenced at the end of my comments. There are lots of points and references included some referencing your concern.

I also encourage you to read what the first commander of military forces in America (Gen. George Washington) had to say on the subject of Chaplains. Also, consider reading what Blood & Guts Gen. George Patton had to say about Chaplains and military prayers. Even Supreme Allied Commander Europe Gen. Dwight Eisenhower and Supreme Allied Commander in the South West Pacific Area General Douglas MacArthur evidence their belief in and importance of Chaplains.

Having served 22 yrs in the military, I was grateful for the availability of Chaplains and prayer in the military. When one's soul is faced with the rapid expectation of eternity, one often garners a new concern for other viewpoints regarding eternity.

I was grateful for a Chaplain who accomplished what none of the Commanders could accomplish at Clark AB, the Philippines, during the Vietnam War when one of the flightline TSgts' baby daughter died of Whooping Cough (very rare). It was a Chaplain who was able to do what the Commanders were not able to do. His contacts through the Chaplaincy at the Pentagon secured a grave plot in Arlington Cemetery and priority transport on a C141 for the parents and their deceased baby to fly to D.C. and for priority temporary housing, and transport to Arlington Cemetery for burial of their daughter with the agreement the father would be buried in the same grave. He also arranged for their other children to be cared for at Clark Air Base while they were in the states, and secured transport for their return flight back to the Philippines. I was surprised to learn what Chaplain 's (at least at that time anyway) could accomplish besides pray, sermons, etc.

Toward the end of my career, terrorists bombed the Army support center (the civilian leased bldg where our kids played and we had a small exchange) in Brussels Belgium. I found the calm actions of an Army Chaplain speaking to and praying for the military families most reassuring. If a person is an atheist, why should that matter.

Additional info: Your belief that prayer could be seen as a violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment has been previously addressed. Review KATCOFF v. MARSH AT TWENTY-ONE: THE MILITARY CHAPLAINCY AND THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE :
In the 1986 case of Katcoff v. Marsh, the Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit became the only federal appellate court to address directly the constitutionality the Army chaplaincy under the Constitution’s Establishment Clause. In holding the chaplaincy did not offend the Constitution, the court relied upon countervailing considerations of judicial deference to Congress in matters concerning the military and soldiers’ reliance on the chaplaincy to exercise freely their religions. This article argues that, given subsequent developments in Establishment Clause jurisprudence and changes in the structure and missions of the military itself, the decision remains on firm constitutional footing. Katcoff did not, however, immunize the chaplaincy from judicial oversight under the Establishment Clause. The article also discusses Establishment Clause issues either left open or not addressed by Katcoff, including the constitutionality of the chaplaincy in major metropolitan areas and issues confronting the chaplaincy with regard to compulsory religious observances and denominational preferences.

And as my mother said from time to time: God Bless you for asking questions.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Jun 1 at 2016 3:58 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 15:58:09 -0400

What soldiers do with their private time, is there business, given that I have seen prayer groups and smoking groups. Your choice which group you want to join in, but in a humoress way you can be a group of one, if I am around I will join you provided I can drink my beer.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2016 7:14 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 19:14:27 -0400

Is this "prayer" mentioning a specific diety (ex: Jesus Christ, Allah, Oprah Winfrey), or is it nearly referencing a general god? I've never seen a chaplain lead an organized Christian prayer, but have seen them ask a generic god (lower case "g") for blessings and protection. I think the easiest thing to do is to put your big boy pants on, quietly reflect on whatever you choose to believe or not believe, and stop being butt hurt over the possibility that someone prayed to God... seeing as how you don't believe anyway.

Response by SPC Daniel Joslin made Jun 1 at 2016 7:24 PM

SPC Daniel Joslin — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 19:24:58 -0400

I just don't understand why everyone is so easily offended or prone to get the feeling hurt. Just put on your big boy pants and suck it up. Most prayers offered at these types of functions take less time than it did for you to type this question. So you get inconvenienced, big deal. Typing this response is two minutes that I'll never get back. Now I'm inconvenienced

Response by SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres made Jun 1 at 2016 8:31 PM

SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 20:31:23 -0400

Oh please..................I don't even want to debate with you intelligibly because it's all about personal bias... Just because you don't believe in GOD or a GOD, doesn't mean the majority of people serving alongside you don't... enough of this anti-GOD crap. You can be an atheist and still have respect for others beliefs, and not have to challenge them...

Response by SMSgt Cary Baker made Jun 2 at 2016 12:27 AM

SMSgt Cary Baker — Thu, 02 Jun 2016 00:27:03 -0400

I don't believe it should be banned. I also don't believe it's a violation of anything. We all serve to defend and protect the Constitution of the US of America. Did we not? We raised out right hands and swore an oath. We all have the right to practice any religion that we chose. Therefore, any one of us has the right NOT to participate in prayer if that's not in our belief. This is always a touchy subject, without any doubt. If prayer is banned during mandatory function, is this not a violation of religious freedom? Just because someone is praying, individually or in a group, doesn't mean we have to participate in that. Good question, very sensitive question.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Jun 2 at 2016 1:32 AM

Cpl Rc Layne — Thu, 02 Jun 2016 01:32:01 -0400

If you don't want to bow your head and pray, don't. The only ones that will know are others that feel as you do. The respect for the beliefs or non beliefs of others is apparently becoming a lost art.

Response by CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 2 at 2016 1:19 PM

CH (CPT) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jun 2016 13:19:52 -0400

As a chaplain who performs these I always start by saying, "If you are willing please join me in prayer." This statement is intended to clarify a voluntary invitation so that those who wish not to pray do not have to. I've had many atheists approach me with gratitude for the way I "invite" rather than say "let us pray." The way things are presented matter and respect matters on both sides of the coin.

Response by MSgt Darren VanDerwilt made Jun 3 at 2016 12:11 PM

MSgt Darren VanDerwilt — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 12:11:08 -0400

I agree that mandatory formations are best to be prayer free. Military Chaplains normally stay "Deity" neutral at these events, it's awkward. Now for the hard part. Atheists are quick to mistake the establishment clause as a zero anything that may be construed religious, especially Christianity, law. It clearly states that Congress is prohibited from making any law that recognizes an establishment of religion, much like we see in Saudi Arabia and Iran. They fail to read the next clause in the first amendment that prohibits Congress from banning the exercise of religion. Key here, the Bill of Rights restricts what Congress can do, not what individuals, commanders, public school teachers, etc., can do. We, as citizens, have to put up with hearing and seeing many things we don't agree with. We, as citizens, have a choice, ignore it, look away, change the channel, develop a counter argument, or tune it out. That's what people of faith do when confronted with the ever growing number of things anti-religious zealots foist upon them.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2016 10:10 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jun 2016 22:10:13 -0400

I'm an atheist myself, but I don't have a problem with religious expression. It's an inescapable part of our culture, whether you buy into it or not. Someone who is sceptical is a "Doubting Thomas." Someone who throws you under the bus is a "Judas." When Chaps does the invocation at a change-of-command, no-one really gives a shit what he's saying. You just bow your head like it's a drill movement. No-one is really joining Chaps in imploring the sky-daddy to grant wisdom to the new C.O. or protect their crops from blight or whatever. They're just wondering if the Sergeant Major is going to finish running his mouth before someone passes out.

Response by Capt Jason S. made Jun 4 at 2016 10:40 AM

Capt Jason S. — Sat, 04 Jun 2016 10:40:55 -0400

As long as each faith is allowed to pray then it should not be banned, we have a right of freedom of speech and freedom of religion in the USA, people have died for that right! We live in a free country and people are going to say things that are not believed by others and that is ok. It is even ok not to agree with them. If we can't be adults about it. Then accept that people have a right to their opinion and vice versa, then maybe you should rethink why you have such a problem with what the other person is saying and why you can't give them the respect, love and time to honor their God/Gods or whatever they draw strength from that helps them be a better person? The problem is not them but yours. You are infringing on their freedoms of public speech.
We made choices to join the military or take jobs. These jobs require us to do certain things but The Government can’t take our rights away to pray in public (even in school) or private away, no matter how much we dislike it. Our Constitution is manly there to protect from the oppression of the Government! The British and other European Countries denied certain rights which our Constitution now guarantees because people died for them.
Now I agree no Atheist should be forced to pray, just like no Muslim, Jew, Christian, Buddhist or any other religious person should be denied their right to pray. If you don’t want to say the pledge of allegiance to the US Flag no one is forced to do so but if you want to do it you can. Now I will tell you I am a Christian and I pray. I also say the pledge in honor to all the service members who served the flag and died defending The Flag! Now I hope everyone would say the pledge of allegiance but I would not want to force anyone because it might be against their beliefs for some reason. It doesn’t make me mad or upset.
I respect the other religions too, I would like to see all my friend become Christians but understand that some are Jews, Muslims, Atheist and so forth. All I can do is pray for them and show the love of Christ. I know I fall short and have my moments that I sin and I pull myself back up again. I hope this helps shed light on the situation from a Christian’s point of view. I hope I do not offend too many people but educate many. May God bless all who read this in some way.

Response by COL Sam Russell made Jun 4 at 2016 5:54 PM

COL Sam Russell — Sat, 04 Jun 2016 17:54:59 -0400

NO.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2016 9:38 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 05 Jun 2016 09:38:36 -0400

I ‘me sure that anybody that didn’t want to be part of this group picture was free to walk away and not be part of it. People don’t have to participate if they don’t want to.

Some will say it offends them, so their rights are being violated. Not so they are free to leave whenever they want to.

Response by SPC Gerardo Aguilar made Jun 9 at 2016 4:23 PM

SPC Gerardo Aguilar — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 16:23:58 -0400

Let them pray. It never hurt me to do so. I don't happen to care what they believe. As long as we all fight side by side, nothing else matters.

Response by Sgt Christopher Wenzel made Jun 9 at 2016 6:31 PM

Sgt Christopher Wenzel — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 18:31:24 -0400

As an atheist, I really couldn't give two sh-ts about what you believe. In this country, you have that right.

With that said, they prayer in ceremony is tradition. It's mostly a show. We once had a Buddhist 'Chaps' do the prayer and opened with the same line, "Our heavenly Father".

Do I think it should be retired?

Personally, yes, but I'm not in the service anymore, so it doesn't affect me. Besides, I was more worried about falling out of the 2 hour retirement formation than what Chaplin Johnson was praying about.

Response by PO3 Sherry Thornburg made Jun 10 at 2016 10:22 AM

PO3 Sherry Thornburg — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 10:22:20 -0400

I think pray at any time is perfectly acceptable when it is the person's choice or even a group of people's choice. The establishment cause only goes into effect when it is some mandatory government entity requiring a particular view. And, I believe forcing a non-religious or theist free atmosphere is also promoting and forcing a particular view.

Response by CPT Robert Boshears made Jun 10 at 2016 1:55 PM

CPT Robert Boshears — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 13:55:40 -0400

As a famous saying goes: There are no atheists in fox holes.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2016 8:27 PM

LTJG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 20:27:26 -0400

if it is a mandatory event, then yes. No one should be forced to pray. however i've been a at plenty of retirements and ceremonies that involves chaps invocation, and despite being atheist i participate out of respect. when i retire i will not have an invocation.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Jun 25 at 2016 10:48 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 10:48:28 -0400

When things slow down, rely on this to come up again to stimulate the masses. Why the **** can't we just live and let live?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2016 11:08 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Jun 2016 11:08:41 -0400

I dont mind the prayer....i have seen others just remain silent and not participate in the prayer. Some dont bow their heads and such. I think prayer is an important part of a lot of lives and should not be removed from anything.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2016 12:42 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:42:42 -0400

I think it's an important part of our Country's and Military's heritage. Talking about Christianity here. I am not religious either but a lot of our founding fathers were and the principles of this great Country is very much so founded on Christian principles. It's not there to offend you or coerce or recruit you to Christianity. It's there to show you and others that we are all brothers and sisters working together. I've never heard a Chaplain say "Let us pray to Jesus". It's always just "Let us pray". You can pray to anything or anyone or just sit quietly with your head down and reflect. If your offended by that then you probably shouldn't be in the Military.

Response by MSG Dan Castaneda made Jun 28 at 2016 9:55 AM

MSG Dan Castaneda — Tue, 28 Jun 2016 09:55:03 -0400

After surviving some of the things I've seen, I have become very religious. It has been a great change in my life and enjoy praying at military functions. Especially before Airborne operations.

Response by SSgt Christopher Mortell made Jul 1 at 2016 12:37 AM

SSgt Christopher Mortell — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 00:37:56 -0400

This poses some interesting questions? Does hearing a prayer in public mean a religion has been "forced" on you? Does it somehow negate your atheism? In what way are you harmed by it? Sometimes, when I am in the car with my daughters I am "forced" to listen to music I believe lacking. Music which is neither thought provoking nor fulfilling. In most cases, we do not share similar beliefs about what makes a song good. That said, while I am inconvenienced by having to listen to it, I am not harmed by it. Annoyed? Absolutely. But, my annoyance is driven by my inability to appreciate it from their perspective. However, thise moments give me the opportunity to open dialogue with them to try to discover what it is about a particular song that they find appealing. In most cases, all they can say is that it makes them happy and gives them comfort. Since I am neither physically or emotionally harmed, I see no reason to change the station. When they get out of the car, I change it and give it no more thought. I have yet to unwillingly change my musical tastes from listening to their music and, in fact, my beliefs about good music are only reinforced. At the same time, it allows me insight into how my girls think, what influences them, and the kind of people they are.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 7 at 2016 6:36 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 Jul 2016 18:36:52 -0400

A moment of silence so that people can pray or meditate or mentally run through the list of things they need to pick up from the commissary on the way home from work is appropriate. It respects peoples right to pray or not pray, and affords everyone who wants to take a moment in prayer the opportunity. Should someone presume to be able to speak in prayer for everyone in attendance at a mandatory event? Never.

Response by Sgt Jim Weeder made Jul 8 at 2016 12:12 PM

Sgt Jim Weeder — Fri, 08 Jul 2016 12:12:57 -0400

Has everyone forgot this?????????
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)

Response by SGT Michael Boothby made Jul 26 at 2016 9:55 AM

SGT Michael Boothby — Tue, 26 Jul 2016 09:55:40 -0400

I say not to ban we was built on JESUS. the world is filling apart be we the people feel we don't need God, if we seek him first the kingdom of heaven will be ours

Response by TSgt Kenneth Ellis made Jul 27 at 2016 12:42 PM

TSgt Kenneth Ellis — Wed, 27 Jul 2016 12:42:44 -0400

I get the feeling that prayer is ok. As long as you are in the church. Or your home. I'm sure that is how Obama and Hillary feel.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 13 at 2018 1:44 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Tue, 13 Mar 2018 13:44:50 -0400

Why- are you proposing that if you have a prayer- instead of just 1 prayer, you have to have 50 different prayers to accommodate all religions. You have no belief, so we know the prayer isn't for you. All service prayers are non-denominational chaplains of each faith rotate- you may even see a Muslim Iman soon. Your religious freedom, means that you do not have to take an active part in religious ceremonies of a different faith (you stand still in respect for the other people.) They can not try to sway up for own on beliefs. The 1st Amendment does not SAY there is NO Religion, it says all religions are welcome and the STATE will not ESTABLISH a religion. Study the history of the Church in England to get a handle on that

Response by SPC David Willis made Mar 13 at 2018 1:53 PM

SPC David Willis — Tue, 13 Mar 2018 13:53:11 -0400

I never had a problem with it, I just kept drinking my beer and didn't bow my head. I don't have issues with people who say god bless or things like that. I don't believe there's an all powerful god in the sky because it goes against logic, but I said the lords prayer before missions because what could it hurt? I did get into a pissing match with an NCO one time when he told me I HAD to go to the chaplain for religious services when he stopped by our COP long story short I didn't go and nothing really happened.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 13 at 2018 4:01 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Mar 2018 16:01:20 -0400

I think it's all or none. I have only ever seen Christian chaplains give invocations, etc.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 9 at 2018 9:15 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 09 May 2018 21:15:08 -0400

Re-read the 1st amendment closely- Congress shall make no Law respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. They had come from Europe where people had been persecuted for 100's of years over their religion and Nations had fought Wars also over religion- they saw what happened when a Nation had a "State Religion" and wanted no part of that. You as an atheist do not have to participate in prayers, but you do have to respect those who are praying- There is nothing in the 1st that says you can't pray if you don't include all religions- it says that the US shall have no "State Religion" and you can pray if you want or not pray.