Should prior enlisted officers be marked higher than officers that have no prior enlisted experience?

2015-05-27T16:50:05-04:00

Should prior enlisted officers be placed higher on the promotion board's list, due to prior experience/years as an enlisted soldier? Why or why not?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 4:51 PM

2015-05-27T16:51:36-04:00

Personally for the most part I find that prior enlisted officers understand the enlisted force better and are more understanding of the enlisted ways. I do not feel that this should have any bearing though for officer promotion boards. Being promoted should be based on your job performance, not on experience. There are experienced people out there who are horrible at their job, and people new to the job who are outstanding performers.

Response by SGT James Elphick made May 27 at 2015 4:52 PM

2015-05-27T16:52:26-04:00

I could see that being the case if they were an officer in the same field in which they had been enlisted, then yes, that experience should count. Other than that you would think they would naturally place higher due to their experiences and understanding of the military and it's inner-workings.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 4:58 PM

2015-05-27T16:58:19-04:00

I think that would depend how long they were enlisted for. If it was two years then I would say no. If it was 6 plus years then yes because the knowledge and understanding is there regardless of what job the enlisted officer does.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made May 27 at 2015 5:02 PM

2015-05-27T17:02:56-04:00

Absolutely not. That you were prior service is just as irrelevent to a board as it is to your OER. Current performance and promotion for success at the next level is what determines your place on the OML for promtion not what you did when you were enlisted. Yes, enlisted time may have helped you perform better as an officer..... but then again, maybe it didn't. Do you really want to reward a POS officer who happened to be prior service JUST BECAUSE they are prior service???

Response by LTC Gavin Heater made May 27 at 2015 5:03 PM

2015-05-27T17:03:51-04:00

Most of the "Mavericks" (using the Navy term) that I met or even commissioned as officers in the Army we're able to stand out amongst their peers, get recognized, advance and even command earlier. However, a small few were problematic, and called the decision to commission them into question (Direct Commission, OCS, and ROTC). All in all, they got settled down quickly and made themselves stand out. I would change the current system.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 5:09 PM

2015-05-27T17:09:58-04:00

NO.

That said, prior enlist may have a leg up on knowing what to do and how to act as an officer, Though for some it could also be a negative.

End point should and must be how does the officer perform his/her duties.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made May 27 at 2015 5:10 PM

2015-05-27T17:10:29-04:00

Only if they are performing at a higher level than their peer that went straight commission. Just because they are prior enlisted doesn't mean they will be a great officer.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made May 27 at 2015 5:17 PM

2015-05-27T17:17:21-04:00

The Prior Enlisted Officer (Maverick) has the additional tools in his/her toolbox to better perform duties and therefore stand out among peers....or be an even bigger a-hole then before (I have seen it, so know it happens). They already have a couple advantages, depending on how many years they were enlisted: 1. They only require 10 years commissioned to retire with commission...this only works if they were over 10 years enlisted. 2. Longevity pay... they already have more years in, so do not start at the O-1 under 2 years.... and if they meet criteria, they actually receive the OE pay up through O-3E which is much higher then traditional officers already. No, they do not need preferential treatment when it comes to promotion boards...they SHOULD NOT NEED IT as they already know what is expected and need to turn that into action, instead of trying to learn everything from scratch.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made May 27 at 2015 5:30 PM

2015-05-27T17:30:33-04:00

They get paid more, retire earlier, and already have quite a bit of experience which separates them from their peers. Do they really need an "administrative" advantage in what should be considered a merit based system?

Response by Sgt Cody Dumont made May 27 at 2015 5:35 PM

2015-05-27T17:35:08-04:00

Yes they should.

Response by BG David Fleming III made May 27 at 2015 5:43 PM

2015-05-27T17:43:03-04:00

They should not be marked higher, but experience should be taken into consideration for specialty skills (Ranger, Airborne) and any advanced training.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2015 5:58 PM

2015-05-27T17:58:23-04:00

No. I've seen just as many competent mustang officers as I've seen ones who are stuck in enlisted/NCO-mode and can't see the big picture/provide the officer professionalism that is required.

There are some who make the transition beautifully; others, not so much.

Response by CDR Terry Boles made May 27 at 2015 6:20 PM

2015-05-27T18:20:29-04:00

No, I do not believe “Mustang” officers should receive preferential treatment when it comes time to meet promotion boards. I agree with others that Mustang officers may have a leg up on expectations and should be able to get squared away a bit more easily, but nonetheless there is a world of difference between enlisted service and commissioned service when it comes to responsibilities, duties, education, expectations, performance, etc. Commissioned service is an eye opener the first couple of years. After serving 17-years enlisted, it took me 3-4 years to feel comfortable or natural as an officer.

As a Mustang officer, I approached each promotion board with the belief there are many officers more deserving than I so I always had that fear and it drove me to be more professional in all respects. So far it has not failed me come promotion time. My enlisted service in many ways helped prepare me for my junior officer years; but my performance, contributions, achievements, and potential helped promote me as an officer.

Response by SSG Steven Rollison made May 27 at 2015 8:41 PM

2015-05-27T20:41:38-04:00

The experience that the prior enlisted has is definetley worth more than a brand new officer just joining. But its still the boards job to determine who is the most qualified to be promoted to the next rank.

Response by SGT Richard H. made May 27 at 2015 11:10 PM

2015-05-27T23:10:41-04:00

Does TIS count on Officer boards? Does prior enlisted time count toward TIS? I would think that it should, and if so, it's already giving you at least some additional points/consideration.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 27 at 2015 11:20 PM

2015-05-27T23:20:35-04:00

NO!!!! Where and how you were commissioned has no bearing on how you do as an officer. It is all about what the Officers bring to the table. 20 years after commissioning, Officers from all three major sources, succeed and fail and rates directly proportional to the percentages commissioned 20 years prior. How you do as an officer is all about you, and your heart; it has nothing to do with where you commissioned.

As far as boards, this is how it works (And still NO), Officers are placed on the promotion list like so.

1. Officers (like me) who are commissioned earlier than 1 June (USMA) go first, and officers above the zone. I am OCS 1-85 (22 Feb)

2. Next is USMA, as they graduate before ROTC classes.

3. Next is all ROTC and OCS after USMA.

4. Last is below the zone.

Response by SSG Melvin Nulph made May 28 at 2015 1:29 AM

2015-05-28T01:29:29-04:00

In my openion, "Only if they earn it". If they can preform as an officer better than the others officers on the list yes but I believe their OERs should take care of that along with what ever else is needed to move up on it.
A few of the best officers I served under were prior enlisted and made the NCOs know their job, one must have been good in school and well let it go at that :) he should have been last in line at the air port too.
To me its a change of jobs is all, I know little about how that side functions just that as enlisted you do all you can to make them shine to prevent the things that come down hill from landing in your lap.

Response by PO3 David Fries made May 28 at 2015 6:50 AM

2015-05-28T06:50:20-04:00

I want to say yes, only because of the 3 Mustangs that I knew, 2of them were outstanding officers. The third, in my opinion, was not.
I guess that it really comes down to whether a specific officer has shown themselves to be outstanding above and beyond, regardless of prior service.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2015 7:57 AM

2015-05-28T07:57:52-04:00

I agree with the vast majority of the people here - being prior enlisted should not be taken into consideration for promotion boards. It just doesn't make sense. Why should I, a prior enlisted officer, be placed higher on the promotion list than a fellow officer - who, by they way MIGHT consistently out perform me. Promotions are based off of performance and potential - not what you did before you were an officer.

Another question I have not seen asked is, what do you consider a prior enlisted officer? Any officer that was enlisted, went through BCT/AIT? What about the ones who just went through BCT then joined ROTC? What about the people who were enlisted in the Reserves/National Guard for 5+ years, but still do not qualify for O1E? Or do you just consider those who were enlisted 4 years (+) on active duty and qualify for O1E pay, prior enlisted?

There is so much subjectivity in this issue, that it cannot be a viable alternative to the current promotion system.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made May 28 at 2015 8:05 AM

2015-05-28T08:05:10-04:00

As a SSG who went to OCS, I always had a leg up on my peers technical knowledge of tanks etc. My experience as an enlisted man colored my outlook on leading troops based on my knowledge of what they want and need from a leader.

That being said, I think that an officer who has had an enlisted career should be looked at differently because of the ire experience and maybe held to a higher standard.

Do I think that an officer with prior enlisted experience should be placed higher on the the promotion list...no...I have seen many prior enlisted officers who turned out to be sub par while many officers from other sources of commission were great officers.

Stay on the tank!

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made May 28 at 2015 8:20 AM

2015-05-28T08:20:04-04:00

No matter how much enlisted experience you have had, the first time your tank throws a track...your still just another 2LT.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2015 3:08 PM

2015-05-28T15:08:21-04:00

No. And I'm a prior enlisted guy myself.

Nobody should receive special consideration. The work I did as an enlisted guy has nothing to do with my worth as an officer.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2015 11:18 PM

2015-05-28T23:18:46-04:00

In short no they shouldn't. Over almost 17 years I have seen both sides of the fence from prior-service officers. I have seen those that were great leaders, clearly demonstrated the potential for future service and promotion. I have also seen those that I would not have put in charge of burning crap downrange. They must clearly demonstrate that they have the potential to continue to lead.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 24 at 2015 4:18 PM

2015-06-24T16:18:31-04:00

No. There is an obvious advantge of having experience as a Enlisted Solder over an Officer with no enlisted experience. A good NCO doesn't always make a good Officer and a good Officer might have been a poor NCO. What if the Officer's experience as a Soldier was only as a Specialist. The KSA's of a Specialist really dont' equate to those of an Officer.

Response by MAJ Haris Balcinovic made Jun 30 at 2015 3:21 PM

2015-06-30T15:21:04-04:00

As I prior enlisted myself - I have to say no. It should be based on capabilities, performance, and potential for serving in positions of higher responsibility should be considered.
I have to say that I would never trade my experience as enlisted and NCO, and would do it all over again. It has brought me a range of experiences and knowledge that has made me who I am as an Officer, however to say that all prior enlisted officers are somehow better than USMA or ROTC graduates is preposterous

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2015 3:46 PM

2015-06-30T15:46:54-04:00

No. If the experience is relevant, than it is reflected through the performance of the Officer in his duties.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 30 at 2015 3:52 PM

2015-06-30T15:52:24-04:00

No it should be on the merits of being an officer.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Jul 28 at 2015 6:06 PM

2015-07-28T18:06:39-04:00

1LT Kyle Kennedy, I thought that it was an unwritten rule, so why are you letting the Cat out the Bag?

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 2 at 2015 3:07 PM

2015-10-02T15:07:21-04:00

No it's the accomplishments that matter.

Response by Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin made Oct 2 at 2015 3:09 PM

2015-10-02T15:09:20-04:00

They already do... They get O-1 Through O-3 "E" Pay.

Response by MAJ Will Sullivan made Feb 26 at 2016 11:32 AM

2016-02-26T11:32:42-05:00

No. Promotion should be based on performance, merit and potential. These things will outshine positively or negatively.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2016 1:27 PM

2016-05-05T13:27:11-04:00

Brother, since I spent 11 years as an enlisted Marine, I'm all for making this change. Let's get it done.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2016 11:20 AM

2016-05-08T11:20:10-04:00

They already get paid more due to O-1E,O-2E, O-3E designators as well as the TIG payscale, and rightly so. However, having seen some garbage prior-enlisted officers, rare as they are, I do not believe placing them higher on the board's list would benefit the institution as a whole. You need to display competence and excel in your present grade, and if you do, that will come out in your FITREPs. Since good FITREPs will yield faster promotion, I'd say that's a better indicator for performance than enlisted experience in a role that was vastly different.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2018 7:04 AM

2018-05-13T07:04:26-04:00

I agree with the comments in this thread, no, prior enlisted officers should not be scored higher on promotion boards. Here’s why, while Enlisted experience is great it doesn’t guarantee success or make an officer better than his/her peers. Should older officers be rated higher on boards? What about a civilian who is 30-35 and chooses to got to OCS, they have significantly greater experience but the HAVE to be able to apply it. I was enlisted for 17 years, but I had to learn how to be an officer. Let me say that again, I had to LEARN how to be an officer. The two roles are vastly different. I think the best prior enlisted officers are the ones who remain humble and know that they don’t have all the answers and must still learn from every position they hold and grade they serve in. I actually had to take a personality test when I was going to command a recruiting company, I had taken a personality test as a SFC. When the counselor discussed the results with me she asked why the two results were so different. I told her “One was how my mind worked as an NCO and the other was after 6 years as an Officer. I had to learn to think different to be affective.” This is just my experience.

Response by COL Brad Welch made Jun 3 at 2018 11:11 AM

2018-06-03T11:11:40-04:00

Absolutely not. Neither should USMA over others. The board consist of three items: ORB, photo, OERs. The board members can see the method of commission on the ORB. No more need to accentuate it otherwise.

Response by LTC Stephan Skridla made Jan 15 at 2019 10:55 AM

2019-01-15T10:55:50-05:00

No everything should be fair. But it's never been and it never will be in the good old boy club where boot licking and as s kissing is still the norm for fast moving career officers. Even shiting on your troops. To get a head of others

Response by CPT Robert Boshears made Nov 7 at 2019 2:55 PM

2019-11-07T14:55:56-05:00

Up to O3, an officer with 4 or more prior Enlisted Service, get paid more... which is about where most O3E’s end their careers.

Response by CPT Andrew Wright made Nov 7 at 2019 6:09 PM

2019-11-07T18:09:47-05:00

Performance has to be a top consideration but perhaps Time in Service should be a factor for promotion if everybody has the same date of rank. Thanks for such a thought provoking question!

Response by Capt Bill Spickerman made Apr 9 at 2020 11:08 AM

2020-04-09T11:08:31-04:00

No. They should be considered based on accomplishments, leadership and the same criterion as other officers.