Should promotion boards be based on more than answering and remembering a predetermined list of board topics.

2014-01-28T16:50:56-05:00

Let's face it, promotion to E-5 is a very important issue. It is the beginning of the Army's first and most influential front of leadership. I personally have been in the Army long enough, and have been to enough places, to realize that sometimes those who have passed the board may not be the most ideal candidates for promotion. Please give your thoughts on the promotion system for E-5 and the pros and cons involved in it. Please be open-minded when answering or reading others answers that you may not agree with. It takes the ideas and efforts of all ranks to keep the Army running, let us try and keep this discussion that way.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Dec 13 at 2013 11:13 PM

2013-12-13T23:13:50-05:00

Remove the "Combat Experience" points.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 13 at 2013 11:16 PM

2013-12-13T23:16:42-05:00

Skills Qualification Tests.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Dec 13 at 2013 11:25 PM

2013-12-13T23:25:40-05:00

I like the idea of the proficiency test, but would be curious to see how to quantify the results for promotion points (if that's the intent).

Also, your statement "The army is scattered with Soldiers that don't know how to accomplish the simple tasks of their job" concerns me.

Will a job proficiency test motivate Soldiers to learn their jobs or do we, as NCOs, provide the motivation to learn ones job?

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Dec 14 at 2013 1:54 AM

2013-12-14T01:54:43-05:00

I would change the AAR process. This is a discussion that peers of mine and myself have had for a very long time. I believe that every NCO who was considered for promotion should "ranked." That ranking should be sent to you via email or another means once the board results are published. If Big Army selected 50 MSGs in my CMF for SGM out of 500 considered, I would like to know if I was 51 or 499. That would help to "put things into perspective" as it relates to either continued service or possibly exploring other avenues.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2013 4:23 PM

2013-12-16T16:23:47-05:00

This is a hard nut to crack. The system is definately flawed no matter how fair in theory its set up to be. I think we give to much weight to things that dont represent the Soldier going the extra mile.

For example we're always told to do things your peers are not doing...Been therr done that...MiTT team deployed from TRADOC 12 months to date from returning from a deploynent with 101st...Selected by name to go teach Ammunition Logistics to Iraq counterparts. ...Service school Instructor...certified Sr. INSTRUCTOR...platoon sergeant time...to make a long story short every job that career tracker recommended. ..oh to top it off MRT...SHARP...ASIST...EOL....so whats left to show potential to operate on the next level when NCOERS are more personal than professional....So its hard to say what should be done. Because even test wont get you the right people

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2014 5:03 PM

2014-01-28T17:03:18-05:00

The problem with the promotion system is that it's not always used properly. Soldiers are often recommended to attend the board before they are ready. As a sponsor to a candidate a leader is saying that he believes that his soldier possesses the knowledge, skills, experience, and potential to serve as a sergeant. Often times leaders are thinking about themselves when they take a soldier to the board thinking "This will make me look good" or "This will look great on my NCOER"

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2014 6:05 PM

2014-01-28T18:05:46-05:00

PFC Morrow, in my opinion its more than just kowing how to answer question from a book. First of all I will not send a soldier to the board unless I feel they have proving to me and other leaders that they are ready to become a NCO. I could care less if a soldier can answer every question from the study guide. They will only go if we feel they can LEAD.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Jan 28 at 2014 6:14 PM

2014-01-28T18:14:49-05:00

Very mature discussion explanation PFC Morrow, kudos to you.

I can assure you I got promoted very quickly however it was far more difficult than just answering board questions. I had to score sharpshooter (while in a unit that went to the range twice a year), I had to have a great PT score, I had to take military education to include online and residential, and study, what felt like, every subject in the entire Army. Then I had to go to the Soldier of the Month Board, win that, THEN I got the chance to go to my SGT board. After that I had to earn enough points to actually pin SGT.

Response by SSG Greg Matthews made Jan 28 at 2014 6:41 PM

2014-01-28T18:41:34-05:00

Promotions to SGT shouldn't be JUST about board questions. PT scores, awards, marksmanship, etc should all be factored in. Most importantly, they shouldn't even be going to the board if their leadership doesn't have faith in them. The board itself is little more than verification for the senior leadership. At the same time though, in most units SGT is the entry level leadership position, and you have to give soldiers that may be ready a chance to excel and learn that leadership. I've never really agreed with putting specialists in E-5 slots, giving them all the responsibilities of an NCO, but at the end of the day they're still an E-4. I generally would send responsible E-4s who had their stuff together and behaved as adults to the board, even if they had no leadership experience. We have to create leaders in the ranks, and it's tough to do that without giving them a chance.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2014 8:04 PM

2014-01-28T20:04:17-05:00

It is, when done correctly, more than just answering questions from a list of study material. The key point is "when done correctly."

Too often I've seen Specialists sent to the promotion board based on TIS/TIG alone. Many times the same for Sergeants appearing before the promotion board.

Semi-centralized promotions do need to mirror centralized promotions, but 1/3 of the process occurs before the board appearance (or should occur). In comparison to DA Evaluations, the promotion process to Sergeant and Staff Sergeant can only guarantee two of three essential elements of advancement selection: the Army's requirement for leaders (# of eligible to promote) and leader qualifications (total promotion points). The other third (yet needs to be done first): soldiers should be recommended for promotion based on the individual's overall performance, attitude, leadership ability, and development potential. There aren't NCOERs for Specialists, so it is left to trust in the recommendation.

By the time the soldier appears before the board, it is assumed by virtue of recommendation that the above stated has already been assessed. It is a leader responsibility to develop leaders. The board is really for the senior panel to witness a future leader's ability to prepare and perform under pressure.

Response by SPC Christopher Smith made Jan 28 at 2014 8:06 PM

2014-01-28T20:06:27-05:00

I'd like to see a Junior Enlisted Evaluation Report (JEER) done at latest starting at the SPC/CPL ranks, earliest at PV2. I believe too many times personal issues have prevented strong E-4's in the Army at least from getting a fair shot at being looked at for promotion. Having an objective view of what an E-4 is doing for those years would help thin the heard of malingers. Also, I think it would help show the weaknesses in their leadership skills as of yet. After being an E-4 in an E-5 position straight out of A.I.T I had to figure out my leadership style quickly, and address my weakness on my own many times. Seeing them on paper from an objective view could have helped me see my progression, and if I was being effective as a leader.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2014 12:00 AM

2014-01-29T00:00:42-05:00

Great question bud. Honestly I think the exact same way as you. I passed my SGT board no problem. When it came to my SSG board i didn't do well when it came to the questions. Seems that i studied everything they didn't ask me. After the board they called me back in. CSM said "You know Sgt Ecklud i can tell you are a great leader and you can take care of your Soldiers. Me and the 1sgs feel you could have answered more questions correctly." Kind of a low blow knowing the only reason i didnt pass was because i didnt answer enough questions correctly. 3 of the 5 1SGs i have worked with directly and they know the kind of leader I am. I honestly dont think promotions should be based upon remembering a book.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2014 7:44 AM

2014-01-29T07:44:59-05:00

Would it be safe to say the promotion system needs to be changed as a whole? Lets say the promotion from SPC / CPL to SGT or SGT to SSG are changed to a three day board. Skill level one and MOS specific skill level two or three plus an APFT and weapons qual, then finally the board on the last day. We have seen all to often, Soldiers are promoted before they are ready. Over the last decade many have been put in places of responsibility they were not prepared for or did not deserve. I agree with the idea of a Soldier of the Month or NCO of teh Month first. It breaks the ice and checks the preparedness of the Soldier. More importantly, it can show how involved the leadership has been in the readying for the board.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2014 8:31 AM

2014-01-29T08:31:31-05:00

<p>This is how the E-5 promotion should be:<br><br>Day One - PT Test/CTT Performance - skill level 1-2<br>Day Two - Range<br>Day three - Essay (Why should you be an NCO/What you have done for the Unit/Platoon/Section)<br>Day Four - Board<br><br>Day 1 - Will asses  Physical Fitness/ / Skill 1 - 2 proficiency</p><p>Day 2 - Will assess if you can shoot<br>Day 3 - Will asses writing and communication skills<br>Day 4 - Will asses verbal communication, posture, confidence and basic army knowledge</p><p><br>That is the perfect promotion for E-5/6, is it practical, slightly the range portion can be difficult if you are in a TRADOC unit. </p>

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2014 11:47 AM

2014-01-29T11:47:02-05:00

PFC Morrow,

This is a great question. I believe if a soldiers going to the promotion board he/she should know what their responsibilities will be. So for my 12B Combat Engineers out there as a SGT/Team Leader there is a multitude of tasks they should be able to complete. So answering the regular questions anyone can remember given enough time to study. I want to see if the are Technically and Tactically Proficient.

V/R

1SG Haro

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Jan 29 at 2014 1:45 PM

2014-01-29T13:45:26-05:00

It was awhile since I went to the board but from what I remember, I had to prepare a complete board packet. In the packet included my PT card, weapons card, and counselings. I had to walk into my board with a leader's book prepared which was looked at during the board. I was evaluated on everything in the packet, my leader's book, my ability to spit out prepared answers and my overall appearance in uniform. Heck, I spent all night shinning the heck out of my jump boots. And my E6 board appearance once done downrange so that was a lot different.

I agree that the ability to answer questions or quote ARs doesn't make you ready to be a leader and I by no means am saying I was the best NCO ever but I feel that having to do all that leg work before I even got into the board made the process mean a lot more. It exposed me to the things that NCOs are asked to do everyday and set me up for overall success.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2014 1:50 PM

2014-01-29T13:50:10-05:00

One of my better leaders once told me that NCO's don't step into that role knowing their leadership style, or being a great leader - they have to learn that through trial and error. Your chain of command sees all the knowledge and work ethic you possess, they recommend you for promotion based on that (or they should) - that to me is the first phase of your "board". To prepare you for the board atmosphere I feel like all SM should be given an opportunity to go to a Soldier of the Month board, then get their chance at a Promotion Board. The thing is, your chain of command knows if you possess the skills to develop into a leader, when you go to a board - the 1SGs and CSM, do not know you on a daily basis like your chain, so they want to ask you some general knowledge questions and see how you perform/carry yourself. I was told before my board that I was already promotable based off my chain of command wanting to send me, now I just had to not lose that status when in from of the 1SGs and CSM. Now, whether or not you are able to adapt to the leadership role is a whole different story. Good question.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2014 2:21 PM

2014-01-29T14:21:30-05:00

I think that the current promotion board the way is set up is the biggest waste of time there is. Anyone can go memorize questions and answers from armystudyguide.com and then regurgitate them on the day of the board; to me that proves that he or she has good memory. A test of your MOS knowledge can be useful, or a hands on demostration of WTBD, something every Soldier should know. To be able to quote what regulation covers this or how many articles in that really proves nothing to me as future leader.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2014 5:01 PM

2014-01-29T17:01:00-05:00

The Soldier appearing before the SGT promotion board need to display that he has the potential for being a leader. The problem I see with most NCO's is they are afraid to be NCO's. They want to be their soldiers friend and not their leader.

A promotion should not be based off of what score a soldier got on an APFT or him/her qualifying expert on their assigned weapon... hell a POS soldier can do these things.

I stress to the NCO's that they need to prepare their soldiers from day one of them arriving to the unit to become NCO's if they are not then we as NCO's are failing the young soldiers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 29 at 2014 7:42 PM

2014-01-29T19:42:41-05:00

I completely understand what you're getting at here but honestly, there's no perfect recipe for this (like all aspects of the Army). It all depends on how hard the senior leaders make the boards, the level of confidence the sponsor has in the candidate as well as the type of leader the sponsor is. No halfway decent leader is going to recommend a soldier for promotion and entry into the NCO realm if he/she does not have faith in the soldier's ability to fulfill the obligations and duties accompanying that rank. Also, it's up to the board members on how hard these boards are. I see many comments, in which some include the consideration of PT scores and weapons qualifications. They already do this. Board members review the entire packet that goes along with the soldier. PT scores, previous weapons qualification, counseling statements, training, etc.

Also, the purpose of them asking questions is to gauge your ability to make sound decisions on the spot in an uncomfortable setting while maintaining military bearing, military knowledge and vocalizing your answers with a commanding presence. The boards I have seen and attended have done a pretty good job at assessing the individuals leadership potential. However, not all boards are like this.

Response by 1SG Shane Hansen made Jan 29 at 2014 7:56 PM

2014-01-29T19:56:06-05:00

Although those that "pass" the board may not be ideal candidates for promotion to SGT, pretty much every NCO in that soldiers support channel and the commander had to say "yes" prior to them attending. Maybe it's not a failure on the board's themselves, but a failure on the leaders recommending them attend.

Since they took board points away and made it a go/no-go event, I have viewed the board as this: you are given a task to complete to standard as per the MOI, a test to see if a soldier will care enough to meet the standard. Also, it gives the majority of the senior NCOs in the organization a chance to make sure the soldier has the potential to be an NCO through conversation, appearance, customs and courtesies, military bearing, and stress management.

The board process is a good check and balance to make sure that someone is not circling "yes" on the monthly reports simply because they don't want to do the counseling.

I would like to think that most 1SGs look for potential at the boards and not just see what random facts they found in manuals that the soldier knows. Sort of like an interview process only more formal. I am big on traditions and military history so I am dreading the day we stop conducting promotion boards.

Response by SFC John Brooks made Feb 3 at 2014 4:08 PM

2014-02-03T16:08:02-05:00

Excellent discussion, PFC Morrow.

I'm the organizer of the mock board program for the Army Element of the Defense Intelligence Agency, so for the past few months the promotion process has been my focus. My Sergeant Major allowed me to sit in on a board recently to get a "fly on the wall" perspective. I can tell you, at least here, that the actual questions are the LEAST important part of the board. Our board members' priority is to evaluate military bearing and confidence. That being said, answering the questions correctly will most certainly help you, but getting them wrong generally isn't a deal breaker.

The number one thing I tell Soldiers preparing for a board is to remember it's about THEM, not the board members. They need to go in with confidence, military bearing, and show that they are ready for the next level of leadership. Definitely study the subject areas, but understand that there is so much more to the promotion board than the quiz.

Response by SGT Andrey Loriacalvo made Feb 7 at 2014 2:47 AM

2014-02-07T02:47:58-05:00

Quite frankly, I believe that a promotion board should be based on proficiency of both soldier skills, and MOS.<br><div>The MOS proficiency portion should be divided as follow: Written test, Oral test, Hands on individually, Leading a task, and ability to train junior soldiers. </div><div>I have dealt with NCOs that have no knowledge of their jobs, which, knowing their career path up to date, has been through no fault of their own. They were placed in positions where they could not perform their MOS, and they were great in such positions, sadly, they promoted themselves out of such position, and are now back in their field, with no knowledge to share with their soldiers as far as MOS goes.  Its rather sad to see.</div><div>I have also sat through "tactical" classes given by NCOs that were just plain sad. The complete absence of knowledge, and experience make those classes utterly painful. In such cases, you'd see the instructor either reading everything from the WTBD, with no insight, or trying the "lemme just wing this" approach, where an "NCO" would put out knowledge that is nowhere remotely close to being accurate. Realistically, what I'm getting at is, if you are horrible at [insert action here] then don't teach [insert the aforementioned action here.] In simpler terms, you wouldn't listen to hair dressing tips from Dr. Phil.<br><br></div><div>Now in changing the promotion board this way, you'd see a decrease in the number of board baby "zebras" (stripe wearers who are not really NCOs) in addition to<span style="font-size: 13px;"> forcing personnel to be proficient in their fields at all levels, adding the lovely benefit of increasing productivity. In turn reducing costs for certain operations, both monetarily, and man power.</span></div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 7:46 AM

2014-02-07T07:46:35-05:00

Any idiot can memorize a book if given adequate time. If a person is READY to move up the ranks they should know the answers to any questions you could ask at anytime.

Boards need to be situational or scenario based not study guide based.

Get rid of Points and let the decision be made by Leadership.

Response by SGT Nathan Huff made Feb 7 at 2014 8:22 PM

2014-02-07T20:22:46-05:00

I think it should work as follows.

1: Board (Go / No Go)

2: PT Test (Go / No Go)

3: MoS Competency test.

4: Set point for Board and PT test

5: Points for Competency test

6: Promotion list chosen from that.

I say this because of the following.

1) Board shows if you are ready to lead

2)PT should be Go or No go. a Injured Soldier who can only take one of the three events is SOL when it comes to promotion points and that is unfair to competent Leaders.

3) So many PT studs with loud voices and make E5 but do not know there job. If they do not know there MOS at the SL they are trying to get promoted to, then they DO NOT deserve the promotion

4) Deployments, and awards should not give you points.

5) Civilian Education and Military Education should still give points.

The final deciding factor should be the MOS Competency test. If you dont know your job you should not have the rank. What good is a leader who cant do the job they are suppose to train there soldiers to do.

I am speaking from past Experience (Especially S1 Experience) people were making rank but did not know there Job. It is sad when the E4 is the SME and the E7 cant even operate a Microsoft Excel in a BN S1 office.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 1:20 PM

2014-02-10T13:20:54-05:00

PFC Morrow,

Being promoted to E5 isnt based off of just answering questions from a book. The board is just a formality so the leadership can see how you prepare for and conduct yourself around higher ranking individuals. Think if you were selected to sit in on a promotion board. You would be able to easily identify who took the time to prepare for it. In fact, ask your leadership if you can observe the next board. I have been on boards and participated in some where no book questions were even asked. In military and civilain life you will often see people get promoted who doesnt deserve it. The only thing you can do is worry about you and do the best you can to prepare.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 1:42 PM

2014-02-10T13:42:14-05:00

Just out of curiosity, how long have you been in and where all have you been? I'm not trying to talk down on you, I'm just wondering what point of view this is coming from and what you can actually see at your level.

Being promoted is already more than just answering questions before a board, you have to show you have leadership"potential". You must be recommended by your squad leader through your 1SG.

Is everyone that goes to the promotion board the next SMA? Of course not, and those you might think are further CSM probably should not have been promoted.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 10 at 2014 2:29 PM

2014-02-10T14:29:55-05:00

The board itself is designed for those attending to pass. Answering a majority of the questions correctly, reciting the NCO Creed, and displaying confidence is all that you really have to do to be successful. The problem is, leaders are sending Specialist s to the board that have no business going. I've seen guys that had no business in the Army go to the board just because a leader failed to keep up with Non Rec counselings. It's a failure on us as leaders to keep letting subpar SPCs slip through the cracks. All that we're doing is providing soldiers with subpar NCOs by doing so.

Response by SPC David Dunn made Feb 18 at 2014 3:40 AM

2014-02-18T03:40:03-05:00

Everything. The entire enlisted promotion system is flawed. How can you be promoted without having to show specialized knowledge or skills in your MOS. I see soldiers being promoted that don't possess the skill or knowledge required of the next rank in their MOS but memorized a few lines from the Army Study Guide and gone before a promotion board then were promoted.

Prime example. I was deployed to Afghanistan in 2012 as a X-Ray Tech. My replacement was a SGT who I had to end up teaching our job because he had literally no idea how to do it. He was kicked out of a trauma by our Forward Surgical Team Commander for basically being incompetent. That should never happen.

Many make fun of other branches, but I know the Air Force promotion system is knowledge based (in your actual MOS). I think the Army needs to adopt this system. When I see an NCO, there should be no doubt he/she has an advanced understanding of both his/her own MOS as well as general soldier skills and competences.

Let's say "NCO's lead the way" because it's tried, true, and proven, not just because it sounds good.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 2 at 2014 11:45 AM

2014-04-02T11:45:11-04:00

As far as SQT's if your a combat MOS I.E Sapper school 12B or Ranger School 11B would be a great place to start. What I learned in Sapper School is Drive and Leadership among other important tasks. Quick fast pace and looking after your team.

NCOERS are biased at times. The "Good ol' Boy" plays a huge role with some areas. When I write NCOERs I am fair and impartial. I know some Senior NCOs that really hook their buddies up. I do what I have to do to set myself from my peers and makes sure the bullets are me.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made May 11 at 2014 11:05 AM

2014-05-11T11:05:01-04:00

Which system? Semi-centralized or centralized? Or the overall?

What would you like to see changed?

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made May 11 at 2014 11:20 AM

2014-05-11T11:20:05-04:00

Decentralized (PVT through SPC)- This system seems to work (they're all skill level one duties)

Semicentralized (SGT and SSG) - Would remove the 'Months Deployed' and transfer the points to the APFT section (easy for Soldiers to control their APFT scores)

Centralized (SFC, MSG and SGM) - This system seems to work (more focus/education should be placed on potential selectees and their leaders.)

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2014 12:00 PM

2014-05-11T12:00:35-04:00

For the most part, I would say leave everything as is. Seems to be working out so far

Response by TSgt William Lounsbery made Dec 14 at 2014 10:18 AM

2014-12-14T10:18:49-05:00

In my opinion, the board should be worth about half of what it is worth. Your evaluation should be based more on your leadership abilities, by having your platoon sergeant and platoon leader provide opportunities for you to train your peers and your overall interaction with the team. General military knowledge has to be worth something but leaders are not made by being book smart.

Response by SGT Chris Hill made Dec 14 at 2014 10:26 AM

2014-12-14T10:26:51-05:00

Here's my opinion; the promotion board needs to be changed. Answering questions such as AR's, FM's, TM's, DA PAMS, etc isn't an effective way to judge someone's ability to be a SGT/SSG. Here's my resolution:

1. Require that the recommended Soldier has had no less than 6 months experience in a section sergeant position, back up with counselings per month evaluating their performance, as well as writing counselins for their Soldiers.

2. During that time, the spc be required to handle issues that us NCO's face daily, and even on weekends. I've seen many instances when a Soldier has something happen yet the spc has no idea how to handle it due to no experience. issues are not limited to during duty hours, but also weekends and holidays.

3. During that time, that spc should be required to pass the apft and the abcp 3 times consecutively, to avoid this mentality of sending a spc who is always boarder line passing either or yet as soon as s/he passes, sent to the board.

Obviously this is just my opinion and do not expect everyone to agree and these are not the only ideas so it's not limited to just what's mentioned. I believe these would be good foundations