Should Ranger School have different standards for female candidates?

2014-11-23T09:10:25-05:00

Response by SGT Richard H. made Nov 23 at 2014 9:15 AM

2014-11-23T09:15:42-05:00

Only in that they should have a separate restroom. (in the garrison areas)

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 11:10 AM

2014-11-23T11:10:54-05:00

Creating a separate inferior set of standards for women would only serve to diminish that individuals quality of training and the respect any female tab recipient would get after earning it.

"Oh sure, you've got the tab, but you didn't REALLY earn it like everyone else."

Coming from a guy who's never been to Ranger School, I thought the entire idea of it was to push you somewhere between beyond your limits and death. That it was meant to prepare you for combat leadership by teaching you where your TRUE limits are. To me, that doesn't sound like it's something that can be half assed, and I'm pretty sure combat doesn't set different standards for women.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 11:16 AM

2014-11-23T11:16:10-05:00

The challenges of doing the job of a Ranger haven't changed so why should training. Quit label us as "male soldiers" and "female soldiers". The term is "Soldier" and I think it should be one standard for all Soldiers in any school/training. Don't lower the standards to meet the desired numbers. I don't have a problem with women in combat but I want to fight next to someone that is as highly trained and as physically capable of doing what I do. I say no, don't change the standards. So when she makes it through Ranger school, she will be called a Ranger...not a Female Ranger.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 12:09 PM

2014-11-23T12:09:49-05:00

Absolutely not. Would the standards be lowered for sub standard men? I have no problem with women in combat roles, however they need to perform to the same level of the male soldiers in the unit. If you allow someone who cannot carry the same amount of equipment as everyone else you force the other members to cross load and carry more then they should have to. Causing more strain than is necessary on other members.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Nov 23 at 2014 12:34 PM

2014-11-23T12:34:44-05:00

No.

Response by 1SG Mike Case made Nov 23 at 2014 12:52 PM

2014-11-23T12:52:45-05:00

Besides the PT Test, what standards are there? Is there a specific time on an obstacle course? Is there a ruck march that has a specific time and weight to be carried? Is there another PT test after mountain phase? What are the specific standards we are talking about?

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 12:53 PM

2014-11-23T12:53:37-05:00

What you do for one should be done for all in most cases. Though I think the standards shouldn't be lowered, the standards eventually will be for women. And if you lower the standards for women, the standards for the men ought to be lowered. And as you lower the standard, there is the increased chance of a group of soldiers less able to complete their mission.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 1:23 PM

2014-11-23T13:23:21-05:00

NO! As a Combat Engineer I have served with Female officers who have led Route Clearance Platoons they have completed all their soldiers tasks and have excelled in those situations. Their have been females completing Sapper School since 2000 and their standards haven't been changed. I feel females can pass it without changing any standards.

V/r

1SG Haro

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Nov 23 at 2014 7:40 PM

2014-11-23T19:40:13-05:00

No.

That being said this is not my service or school, similar conversation about mine here: https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/marine-corps-infantry-officer-course-and-female-marines-gauging-females-in-combat-roles

Marine Corps Infantry Officer Course and Female Marines, gauging females in combat roles |...

Through out the military there has been a push for female service members to join their brothers in some of the most challenging assignments in combat units. The Marines are by far the most adamant about proving this. They are steps beyond where the other services are in their own integration of females in combat roles. They are finding the cold hard truth. It really doesn't matter what one thinks is fair, as in requiring females to performing...

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 8:57 PM

2014-11-23T20:57:08-05:00

No. Just like Sapper school. If you want the Tab you have to earn it with same standards regardless of gender, age, or rank.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 8:58 PM

2014-11-23T20:58:49-05:00

Hell to the no. I'm sure we as a nation and as an Army have females that can pass selection

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 9:07 PM

2014-11-23T21:07:40-05:00

There's no need for that, the women participating are top notch, many of them in better shape and bigger heart than many men,

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 9:08 PM

2014-11-23T21:08:31-05:00

No way, the mission will not change based upon gender

Response by SFC Philip Lowe made Nov 23 at 2014 9:12 PM

2014-11-23T21:12:56-05:00

No standard should ever be jeopardized to accommodate either gender. You either make it or do the duffle bag drag!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 11:03 PM

2014-11-23T23:03:30-05:00

Absolutely Training standards should not change! However they will. As the 1st class with female Ranger Trainees comes together, Ranger Cadre Instructors will have recieved specific guidance on what they can and can not do. The Female Ranger students will not receive the "same" treatment as the male candidates. It will be G.I. Jane, only this time in real life, and, NO, the standards will not be the same between male and female candidates.

I will not be surprised if it has not already been determined that the female graduation rate "must" meet that as the male candidates, whether the standards have been met or not. This is a politically driven decision not a military driven decision, so we know this has been a topic of discussion.

WE know that a known and established goal in Ranger School is to push students to exhaustion and then see how far they can keep going and weaknesses are pounced on quickly. This will not be the case for female candidates; Will hand to hand combat training in the pits require women against women or will it be "realistic" training of women against men? Remember, in 2012 the USMC open its Officer Infantry Course to women, none passed that year. Why was that.... no change in standards. I do not know if any have yet to pass! I am interested to find out now!

The Army will be assigning Females to serve as observers/advisors to give input to Ranger Instructors and Commanders...Really! What kind of input, could they possibly have to provide. These will not be Female Rangers, they are not required to complete Ranger School! What will their advise be when it's day 10 in the swamp, constantly wet, cold miserable, students droning out all over the place. Really, what....they will not have experienced it, so what advise could they offer ....from a female Ranger viewpoint? Where have the observer/advisors been for the male candidates...no wait, they are already here....they are the Ranger Instructors. WTH!

Fortunately at this time, the Army has not totally lost its mind. Females who do successfully graduate from Ranger School will be allowed to wear the Tab, none will be assigned to the Ranger Regiment or to a Ranger Battalion. Why is that...if they graduate and earn their Tab, why can't they be Rangers, not just Ranger School graduates...there is only hell of difference.....ask any Ranger in the Regiment from PVT to the Regt'l Cdr.

Folks I know many will think I'm coming across as an ass and expect to see may down votes for this post. Please think about this...all the talk we see and hear through the media comes from the Chief of Staff, SMA, DA senior officials....not a word from the Ranger Training Bde. Why, they've been told to shut up and color between the lines.

To say again what I said earlier. I wish every female who decides to attend, the very best of luck and nothing but success and hope they get Tabbed! However, I hope this is done with the same standards that have been in place for every Ranger Class prior to their attendence. Even if it's not (which it won't), their passing will still be a great achievement!

But it will be a tainted achievement; a politically motivated publicity stunt; everyone will know it; if it wasn't, females would not still be restricted from being assigned to the Regiment or one of the Battalions.

It's G.I. Jane in present day, without the popcorn and sodas. Its another case of the inmates running the politilco-military asylum, with the inmates being the politicans and the senior military leadership not rolling up it's sleeves taking a position, but rather choosing to follow suit to mantain their prestigious position.

Our military leaders used to provide advise to Congress and White House; Not anymore; They've never served a day in uniform; no nothing about being a Soldier, a leader, especially what it takes to be a Combat Arms Soldier, SF, Ranger, etc! But they seem to have all the answers and solutions!

My thoughts and concerns are, what will they come up with next....and then when the bullets begin flying in the next battle, how many Soldiers will die because of stupid political-military decisions. Haven't we seen enough of that over the last 10 years with many decisions made from within the D.C. Beltway, instead of by Commanders and leaders on the ground leading those Soldiers, NCOs, and Jr. Officers out their fighting for their lives and this country. http://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/10/09/three-women-have-applied-to-be-army-ranger-school-advisers.html

Three Dozen Women Have Applied to be Army Ranger School Advisers

More than three dozen women have applied to be advisers at the U.S. Army's elite Ranger School so far, an official said.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 23 at 2014 11:09 PM

2014-11-23T23:09:28-05:00

No, period.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Nov 23 at 2014 11:10 PM

2014-11-23T23:10:03-05:00

Sure, as long as you are okay with taking all of that history and 'eliteness' (Sure I know it's not really a word) and dump in down the latrine. But in the chase for equality, all things are possible.

Let's be honest here, standards are lowered all the time, whether it is for female or male Soldiers. I know Soldiers out of AIT have been 'passed' just so they are no longer the cadre's problems. I also know Soldiers out of basic who are 'passed' without actually passing. These are not my stories that I have made up, these are cadre and Soldiers that have told me this. I can't speak about the combat arms training, as I haven't been combat arms in a billion years...

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Nov 23 at 2014 11:50 PM

2014-11-23T23:50:45-05:00

I know the Soldier in the picture. She was my platoon sergeant at Fort Bliss, TX for a short time.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2014 6:05 AM

2014-11-24T06:05:56-05:00

In a word, no.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 24 at 2014 11:01 AM

2014-11-24T11:01:33-05:00

In hope that it would not turn into a pile on become an out of control discussion. I do wish that we had some of the females who have/are applying to attend Ranger School and also some of the 31 "female advisors" to instructors and cdrs join in on this conversation.

It would be great to hear their viewpoint and there assessment to many of the comments made by the old guard (myself included), who are trying to keep an open mind, but just do not believe this is going to happen without changing the standards and Ranger instructor tactics.

The only public communication we hear are coming out of the Puzzle Palace in the Belt Way. The lid has been put on the Training Bde, leaders and Instructors. Now why is that??

Response by COL Ted Mc made Nov 24 at 2014 1:29 PM

2014-11-24T13:29:17-05:00

Assuming that "the standards" actually have some logical connection with the real goal of training, not only "no." but "Hell NO!!!".

If "the standards" DO NOT actually have some logical connection with the real goal of training (T.G.A.S.E. - requiring all cooks to be fluent in Romulan) then "the standards" should be changed - for everyone - to standards which DO actually have some logical connection with the real goal of training (T.G.A.S.E. - requiring all cooks to be able to tell the difference between sugar and powdered dish soap)

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2015 2:13 PM

2015-01-18T14:13:46-05:00

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2015 2:15 AM

2015-01-19T02:15:51-05:00

My point is if you want to join the US Army Ranger School then you must be ready to prove what you are made of by completing the entire military training be male or female. The standard is the same across the board. The enemy does not differentiate between which gender to capture, kill or let go in the battlefield, therefore I don't think there should be a special training reserved for females. Anything a man can do a woman can also do better no doubt. No compromise on gender issue.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jan 22 at 2015 10:01 AM

2015-01-22T10:01:46-05:00

Yes absolutely, but only if the TAB awarded is Pink.
.
.
.
.
.
NO, of course not... but since nobody asked me, and those pushing social engineering are more interested in looking like they are doing something positive, vice DOING something positive, things will likely be slanted for success.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Jan 22 at 2015 10:05 AM

2015-01-22T10:05:50-05:00

NO because the challenges a Ranger faces will not discriminate male from female.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2015 12:13 PM

2015-01-23T12:13:28-05:00

No.

That is all.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 23 at 2015 12:23 PM

2015-01-23T12:23:32-05:00

The standard should not change. Ranger school is a leadership school and as long as female soldiers can meet the standard then they should benefit from the school. My personal opinion is that this is actually a much easier problem to solve than incorporating women into the lowest level of combat formations. The amount of institutional and structural change that will need to occur in order to place women into infantry platoons or on special operations teams is massive.

A school is about standards. For example, throughout the SFQC all male soldiers are judged using the PT standards of a 21 year old soldier. One standard - pass or fail.

Response by LTC David S. Chang, ChFC®, CLU® made Feb 5 at 2015 5:40 PM

2015-02-05T17:40:02-05:00

I am all for equality but believe the standards should stay the same. The Army Rangers have a different mission set that require a high level of physical and mental acumen. I know for a fact that there are many women who do better than me or many guys!

But at the same time the standards to become one should be the same. For the regular army, since there are many different MOS and positions we can afford to change some of the standards.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Feb 5 at 2015 5:52 PM

2015-02-05T17:52:08-05:00

In a word, No...

There should be set standards for every position/school in the Army and that standard should be met by everyone, male or female. Reducing the standard so one sex can meet it or setting a different standard is wrong.

Social engineering in the military must stop.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 6:18 PM

2015-02-05T18:18:06-05:00

no. Rangers are Rangers because of the standards they are required to demonstrate and live.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 6:20 PM

2015-02-05T18:20:40-05:00

Very easy to answer NO

Response by CSM Thomas Ray made May 1 at 2020 7:43 AM

2020-05-01T07:43:17-04:00

Why should they, one standard, one Army

Response by SFC James Welch made Jun 15 at 2020 10:03 AM

2020-06-15T10:03:45-04:00

NO!