Should rank be automatic?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Aug 2014 00:52:23 -0400

I have often felt that the automatic promotion system is severely flawed. Most especially to E-4 SPC. I have always been taught that the SPC is the go to guy, both for NCOs and PVTs. The NCOs because they know the SPC knows his job and how to get it done, the PVTs for the same reason but without going to an NCO. Particularly with my MOS in my unit, NCOs have always been few in number, so it's usually the senior specs that are relied on. The point I'm trying to make is if E-4 is automatic, how do you know that the individual is deserving of that position?

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Aug 1 at 2014 1:23 AM

CMDCM Gene Treants — Fri, 01 Aug 2014 01:23:19 -0400

Although I was an "Automatic" promotion to E-4 (Petty Officer Third Class) it was not until 9 months AFTER graduation from ET"A" School at the time I went to school. (It is now automatic at graduation.) Since I was in school for almost a year and went into Boot Camp as an E-2, I actually took the Fleet Exam and made ETN-3 off the test faster than getting the Auto promotion.

However, because I was so new to my ship, I still had to prove myself and no one really knew of I was a push button (automatic) or took the test. Each individual proves him/herself to their peers. This happens at each promotion and not just at the E-4 level, EVERY TIME!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2014 1:34 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Aug 2014 01:34:47 -0400

I was meritoriously promoted to E-4 Corporal in the Corps nothing automatic about it. An E-4 is a NCO in the Marines. The Army should decide to have one or the other corporal or specialist.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2014 3:02 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Aug 2014 03:02:53 -0400

If "automatic" promotions bother you, don't ever join the Guard..

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made Aug 1 at 2014 7:05 AM

SCPO David Lockwood — Fri, 01 Aug 2014 07:05:26 -0400

I don't believe rank should be automatic for the simple fact that you will have a bunch of E5s and above who will have done nothing to ear that rank and yet you have some who will bust their ass to make achieve that same rank. This will have a domino affect and you will have a bunch of people who have no initiative to learn, take on responsibilities and so forth. I personally think, as far as the Navy goes, that PARS should be part of the advancement process. PARS forced us to go out and prove to a senior Petty Office that you knew something about the equipment even it was just the basics.

Response by Cpl Robert Hare made Aug 1 at 2014 10:09 AM

Cpl Robert Hare — Fri, 01 Aug 2014 10:09:03 -0400

Promotion should never be automatic. The Marine Corps learned that lesson in the 80s when they brought out the 16 month contract Corporal. Many Marines were automatically promoted and didn't deserve it. The Marines that did couldn't get promoted because the fields were either frozen or the composite scores were too far out of reach. I fell into that category and was only able to serve 10 years because I wasn't able to pick up Sgt. due to a frozen promotion field.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2014 10:36 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Aug 2014 10:36:45 -0400

I think at least E-4, should be earned (not necessarily be on the point system, just need a recommendation from your first line supervisor to the CO explaining why should you be promoted to E-4). I can honestly say I was working my butt off as a PFC being the unit armorer with no alternate armorer and I got my waiver to SPC before the 2 year mark for "automatic" promotion. But it still bothered me to see soldiers that were complete shitbags, no discipline, lazy, always shamming still get promoted to E-4 just because they hit they're 2 year mark and weren't flagged. That, along with the crappy promotion system, is one of the problems in the Army.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Aug 1 at 2014 12:06 PM

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Fri, 01 Aug 2014 12:06:50 -0400

I had an E5 when I was an E4 tell me that Blue on a map designated sky, and he was dead serious. Promotion should be based on merit. I also contend that if someone wants to be a career private, they should be allowed to do so. Do not promote someone who does NOT want responsibility. I was in the Infantry, I had a SP4 who was a 90 MM Recoilless Rifleman, he was phenomenal, he was also a drunk. In 1974, I told him that he needed to be promoted or kicked out (I never considered promotion). He told me to kick him out, as he did not want the responsibility. The kicker is he was the best 90 gunner I ever met. Requiring promotion was the worst thing the Army ever did, he would have been content being a career SP$, and he would have benefitted the Army in that position.

Response by CPO Jerry Smith made Aug 1 at 2014 7:32 PM

CPO Jerry Smith — Fri, 01 Aug 2014 19:32:44 -0400

Are you kidding me? Rank needs to be something earned not pc correct. PC correct has just about ruined the services now.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2014 12:30 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Aug 2014 12:30:11 -0400

It took me 3 years to make E-4 because I failed to live up to the PT standards the year and a half I spent in Reserves before I was able to go on Active Duty. Even in my Reserve unit, I watched PFCs get promoted to Specialist the last day of their first drill with the unit. While this was happening, my leadership would appoint them as my LEADERS and yet they were always running to me because they had no clue what they were doing when given orders to delegate. An E-4 asking an E-2 what's needs to be done? Something just isn't right there. Somewhere along the line, I've actually become proficient in my job. Now by no means am I close to where I feel I need to be as far as knowing everything I need to in my job skill level. Currently down range I have two Soldiers who I am responsible for. Leadership feels I should go to the promotion board already. I've actually asked to be instead laterally promoted to Corporal. My soldiers have the utmost confidence that I'll take care of them and I try my best to do that on a daily basis. I'd actually prefer the chance to prove my self-worth before I go from a shield to three chevrons. If it was up to me, the current promotion system, in the Army at least, would get tanked. As an 88M when a newly promoted Sergeant can't even tell me what the fuel capacity is on a M1120A4 aka LHS they have absolutely no business leading Soldiers. How am I supposed to follow you when I look to you for guidance but you can't tell me something so simple that's supposed to be your job?

Response by MSgt James Trent made Aug 2 at 2014 2:39 PM

MSgt James Trent — Sat, 02 Aug 2014 14:39:10 -0400

I think automatic promotion for the lower ranks is good as long as they don't have a paper trail a mile long. The military teaches you the basics and in most cases are going thru training/school while the promotions happen. So you don't have a lot of real authority anyway.

I don't think that the way the Air Force does promotions from E-4 and above are completely correct. Tests are good for a basis on if you know your job but real evals should play a big part in if you get promoted. The system they use now where if you don't get all 5s then there is something wrong with you. Getting 4s should be perfectly acceptable otherwise how do you improve?

Firewall 5s IMO are not real evaluations. Those should be rare and hard to get

Response by CAPT Gary Foster made Aug 2 at 2014 9:04 PM

CAPT Gary Foster — Sat, 02 Aug 2014 21:04:16 -0400

Rank was only automatic from E-1 to E-2 and E-3 when I served as an enlisted man. I was in the Navy, and had to test for Petty Officer (E-4). If I didn't meet the passing requirements and complete various milestones for training I didn't get promoted. When I became an Officer, it seemed like promotions were automatic, but they were not. You still have to achieve certain milestones, like qualifications and have endorsements on your Fitness Reports (FITREPS). It becomes increasingly difficult when you are up for promotion to 0-5 (Commander in the Navy, Lieutenant Colonel in other services). I wish I could tell you that it's all fair at this point, but I have seen politics and political correctness hijack promotions and derail careers of some very good officers and promote people who lack basic leadership principles. It was really bad at the 0-6 (Captain or Colonel) level. In fact, in my own opinion, the services are all struggling with Commanding Officers up to flag officers being relieved for improper behavior or other issues that never used to plague the system as bad as it does in today's environment. I believe the military has done this to itself. In order to make higher rank, you have to know somebody. The old cliche, "It's not what you know, it's who you know" seems to play huge among the higher ranks. I offer this assessment up: a person who knows people up the chain will usually get promoted because of those relationships. This doesn't allow the system to properly work, where checks and balances ought to come into play, such as how stable is the individual. Does he or she have a drinking/gambling/infidelity/porn/etc, etc, problem? Or, some folks are just liked better because they went to the same school (i.e. the Academies). Those markers always go unchecked as leadership tends to look the other way, and we end up getting another fearless leader who cannot operate like a man or woman in social circles but ends up looking stellar on paper in FITREPS. I am glad rank is not automatic, but the system needs to be rebuilt. It is currently a self-licking ice cream cone.

Response by SCPO Stephen Ibanez made Aug 6 at 2014 1:14 PM

SCPO Stephen Ibanez — Wed, 06 Aug 2014 13:14:05 -0400

Promotions should not be automatic (just for "putting in your time") in any instance. Every promotion brings a higher level of responsibility and accountability, and each service member needs to prove they're ready for that step.

Regarding the leadership abilities (or lack thereof) that various people have, there's a simple solution. Maintain two tracks - one leadership and one technical.

We all know service members who were outstanding technicians and either didn't want to lead others or who had no ability to lead others. Why should we penalize top performers just because they can't or won't become leaders? Those people should be promoted along the technical track. That will also free up the leaders and potential leaders to improve their leadership skills.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Aug 17 at 2014 3:34 AM

SFC Mark Merino — Sun, 17 Aug 2014 03:34:22 -0400

There is so much paperwork already clogging up the offices that they set up a system where things run as smoothly as possible. Instead of putting paperwork in for EVERY promotion for every service member, they opted to use a system where someone would have to take the time to STOP a promotion or request to speed one along. Just my 2 cents.......

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Aug 17 at 2014 5:52 AM

Sgt Packy Flickinger — Sun, 17 Aug 2014 05:52:44 -0400

No, it should not. Some are just shitbirds who don't deserve it. Some bust their butts and should be recognized. Some are promoted way to fast. When I was in, the WM's got promoted very fast because they filed discrimination suits if they wern't. It was a joke, "don't bother going to the meritorious board because there is a woman on it, she'll win".

This is one of the reasons I did not reenlist. I saw a woman make it from cpl to sgt in 6 months. How, nobody knows, she wouldn't say. I was a cpl for over 3 years with tremendously good reviews and awards in the same Mos, same unit.

I saw the same with black jr enlisted with black NCOIC and OIC's.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 17 at 2014 1:12 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Aug 2014 13:12:50 -0400

I had a Commander as an LT who required all junior enlisted Soldiers to be rated on a local-only 2166-8-1 (NCOER Support Form) even though they obviously weren't getting rated on an NCOER, and required E-2 to E-4 promotions to go through a CO-level board consisting of E-6 and up (but none from their own platoon) similar to the NCO Promotions Boards before he would sign them. Every promotion had to be earned, and people competed with each other and (more importantly) with themselves to improve. The Soldiers learned their stuff way better, and the practice at boarding helped them later on for the real thing.

The next Commander did away with the entire system, and signed any junior enlisted promotion for TIG unless there was disciplinary on them recently. All the competition stopped, and with it much the quality of the E-3/4 ranks within a year, even though most of them were among those who had competed to get their rank just prior.

I have no problem with the idea of a separate system for specialists (and even expanding it back to the WW2 multi-level tech track). I hate the idea that Specialists aren't rated formally the way Corporals are, and I have grown to appreciate the idea of developmental support forms for those who don't receive official ratings as a way of determining when advancement is appropriate.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2014 3:27 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 Aug 2014 15:27:07 -0400

Unless it's changed in the last 11 years, I always thought it was really silly that some fresh out of boot camp service-member who managed to "play the game" before going into boot camp and got his buddy to join the navy with him, or they completed the delayed entry program in such a way that they were awarded with E-2 or E-3 going into basic rather than only E-1. If you were an E-3 in basic, and went straight to A-school after basic, you pretty much got to take the E-4 exam as soon as testing time came around. I really had a hard time understanding why someone who had been in the service for less than a full year was already promoted to E-4 because they managed to play the game and/or took a test very well. As an E-4, you should be leadership material. With less than a year in, you don't always have it, no matter your age. Some qualify but MANY do not.

I should clarify that I'm not against the incentives for being awarded E-2 or E-3 upon entry into the service, but I DO think there should be a longer window of time (or better criteria to measure if a person is capable, ready and has the leadership skills necessary) before that person should be eligible to move on to E-4.

I still think the navy test promotion way of doing things is not the best method to award the deserving sailors who earn the rank. I just found out last week that my former LPO.... who was a PO2 13 years ago when I was serving under her, and at some point made PO1, now has 19 years in the service and is dropping her retirement package for next year.... to retire as a PO1 because she wasn't able to make it to Chief. Now, I know, I know, there are lots of reasons and factors that could affect that. Quotas and all that get in the way the higher up the ladder you go. But in my opinion, tests and evals (that are totally beefed up) are not the way to promote. Character, potential, and ability are. If you're a dirtbag, you need to prove yourself. If you're an otherwise good sailor with one (minimal) blemish on your record, that blemish should not follow you for the rest of your career. You should be able to work your butt off and prove your worth. Instead these jokers skate through life, take a test, pass it and are promoted to E-4 since the quota is somewhere in the 90s, and you've got E-3s and below who are looking at that person thinking "I can't believe that dirtbag is wearing crows now...."

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 18 at 2014 5:36 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 Aug 2014 17:36:52 -0400

I have always disagreed that rank should be automatic. I think it should be based on the same standards as promotion from E-4 to E-5.
You want to be a consistent PT failure? Bitch about wearing your uniform? Too hot outside? Too cold? "OMG, Army stuff...again?!" Let 'em stay right where they are comfortable.
Since the SPC rank is automatic, what possible incentive do we have to attain it? I don't know about you, SGT Private RallyPoint Member, but I've logged many a mile and put in quite a lot of sweat and tears for my career. I've seen so many soldiers who put forth zero effort and still get their automatic promotion. It really is a demotivating.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 19 at 2014 7:57 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Aug 2014 07:57:03 -0400

I'm usually the loudest mouth in the world when it comes to things I think the military is doing wrong, but I actually think the system works quite well.

E-1 through E-3 are about learning the basics of your service. Assuming the NCOs and PO/CPOs are doing their job, we can expect that these ranks can advance well enough - so it's fine that they represent seniority. The CO can always step in and say "nope, this person isn't ready." At E-3, you've got a pool of "learned enough" people who are now trying to earn step up to the Petty Officer or NCO level. That's where things absolutely shouldn't be automatic. The rank now means more than just seniority.

Of course, the Army extends this out, a little, to the SPC side of E-4, but that doesn't really change anything. I've never been a fan of uniformity for uniformity's sake.

At most, I could see adding in a few milestones in order to retain eligibility, such as requiring completion of DC-301/302 for E-2 and 303-306 for E-3 (at least for shipboard sailors).

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2014 1:37 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Aug 2014 13:37:32 -0400

I may be NG but I understand where your coming from and watched people move up to SGT before me just from kissing ass enough and its a lil different for us the commander doesnt get to sign off for a SPC to move to SGT as far as im aware its all about the packets and how many points you have just suck it up I spent just ove 5 years as SPC and still could do my job better than the guys I watched pass me up hell I could do their job better than them I just kiss enough ass to get the promotion and it took finally getting a PSG that dont like brown nosers and was pushing for my promotion along with my SSG also pushing for it having worked full time with him and knowing I was able to do more then the average SPC in the battalion could do and a new SGT from AD relying on me to help with the training due that he was light and came to a unit that was heavy weapons just to get the reviews in my packet to the top on the list in my unit and 23rd in the state. Leadership will promote when they feel that the person is ready and dispays the qualities that they are looking for in the rank they are promoting a person to spend some more time in the military and you will understand. As a SPC I was teaching my peers in many things that very basic task for me but they knew nothing about and it made me wonder how did they even get their rank just given to them when I truly had to prove my self before I got it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2015 5:52 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 05:52:34 -0500

E-4/SPC is not an automatic rank, let an E-3/PFC fail an APFT an see how "automatic" it is...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2015 9:25 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 19 Jan 2015 09:25:28 -0500

I have not read all of the responses but I will put my two cents in. Absolutely not. There isn't enough typing time to explain all the reasons. However, I will say a few. If you don't earn it then you won't appreciate it. Like when you buy stuff for your children and they tearit up and disrespect it. They will appreciate the gift that has been "given" to them instead of "earned"

It's really a no-brainer in my humble opinion. But in the two services I have been in up to E-3 is automatic. Thats not that important in my mind. Navy I had to test out starting at E4. I made E5 during my terminal leave, so therefore my DD214 never reflected my rank getting out of the Navy. I came in as an E4 into the Army and in 3 years made E5. I had to complete SSD1 and WLC, as well as fill out a promotion package like everyone else. I then became a Drill Sgt all near the same time. I've earned it twice. That makes it more sweeter.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 28 at 2015 2:55 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Feb 2015 14:55:20 -0500

I agree that the system is flawed. Promotions should always be earned and never given out. When I was prior service I had to do Practical Factors (pracs) and tests to get promoted along with oral qualification boards and check rides. Here’s the break down.
E-1 - E-2: Graduate Basic Training with two tests and a set of pracs
E-2 - E-3: Two tests and two sets of pracs
E-3 - E-4: One test and two sets of pracs
E-4 - E-5: One test, two sets of pracs (one signoff consisted of two tests, and additional set of pracs, and a certification)
E-5 - E-6: One test and two sets of pracs

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 2 at 2015 1:05 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Aug 2015 13:05:59 -0400

No. We are dealing with that now. Got about 7 E4's that were automatically promoted. 6 of them didn't do a packet and probably aren't ready for it

Response by Cpl Charles Trump made Mar 20 at 2020 11:06 PM

Cpl Charles Trump — Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:06:00 -0400

It's bad practice, but its always been that way. Two and 3 shouldn't be auto but it is.

Response by Cpl Charles Trump made Mar 25 at 2020 11:19 AM

Cpl Charles Trump — Wed, 25 Mar 2020 11:19:04 -0400

Bad policy. It leaves the person in a position of unpreparedness. Along time ago in the Marine Corps when you were promoted to Corporal u got no other training. Now they have a Corporals and Sgts course plus Squad Leader School. That's a better program. But that automatic stuff for all ranks should be stopped altogether. College might be good for maybe PFC out of boot camp but not beyond that. Corporal is by meritorious promotion board or by cutting score. Never automatic!