Should Senior Enlisted Ranks pay the same as Officer Ranks?

SSgt Paul Esquibel — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 12:11:59 -0400

So just looking for opinions, should E-7-E-9 be paid the same as O-4-O-6? In today's military Senior Enlisted leaders perform similar functions as the following Officer ranks, as the military has changed education is no longer a defining difference as many SNCO's have BA, MA and PHD's. Some SNCO's do 30 years but most do 20+ should they be paid/not be paid the same or at least in retirement?

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Aug 22 at 2016 12:14 PM

SrA Edward Vong — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 12:14:39 -0400

I would say no. Even though they perform similar functions, at the end of the day, the officer still has more in responsibility. I wouldn't be opposed to a slight pay boost as an incentive for degree completion though.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2016 12:25 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 12:25:53 -0400

Absolutely not. While the education gap between an O-10 and an E-9 can be very narrow or non-existent, there is still a large gap in responsibility level and authority and that is why officers are paid more than enlisted.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2016 12:26 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 12:26:31 -0400

Maybe it's because I'm an enlisted guy that the pay scales seem way off to me... a CSM with 18 years in makes nearly the same as a Company Commander (O-3) with 8 years in... the level of responsibility is somewhat higher on the Officer side, but the enlisted Soldiers are where the rubber meets the road. Additionally, that CSM probably has a Master's Degree or is close to, whereas that Captain likely has a Bachelor's degree. When the GWOT first began, and for several years after, we enjoyed unprecedented increases in pay and allowances, but it seems the Officer Corps fared better than the enlisted. It is pretty apparent that the pay scales, particularly for Senior NCOs, should be reexamined. I'm not saying that the pay should be the same, but there shouldn't be a discrepancy of thousands of dollars in monthly pay between a Commander and his/her CSM. Looking at pay scales, on the Officer side, a Soldier makes on average $1,000 extra per pay grade, whereas the enlisted side only makes an average of $400-$500 extra per pay grade in basic pay.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2016 12:27 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 12:27:46 -0400

An NCO with a BA, MA or PHD has the options available to get a commission or, depending on branch of service, a warrant. If that's the route they choose, then they should get the pay of an officer/warrant. Yes, as a senior NCO I did a lot of administrative work but I still dealt with the troops and I wouldn't have traded that for the political BS of the officer corps. I loved being an NCO.

Response by CSM William DeWolf made Aug 22 at 2016 1:20 PM

CSM William DeWolf — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 13:20:41 -0400

Hell yes, I'll vote for that!

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2016 1:22 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 13:22:31 -0400

I don't believe so and here is why: I am a currently and AD CPT with 17yrs of prior enlisted time. By the time I commissioned, through OCS, I already had my MBA. Having said that, I did not have the same duties and responsibilities as an Officer no matter if they were a LT or CPT. NCOs get to provide information and make recommendations to the Commander and they make the decisions. And contrary to what many a 1SG or CSM believe, they are not Commanders (No disrespect intended, but have seen way too many who truly think they are Commanders and treat every one like a peon). If they wanted to receive the "extra" pay, then they should go the route of commissioning. I don't regret commissioning so late in my career as I am able to use my previous experiences of an Enlisted Soldier, but never during my time as Enlisted did I think I should be making the same or equal pay as an Officer. But most won't cause they don't want to go from being "Top Dog" to bottom of the totem pole. But the thing most people don't remember it that is doesn't matter how much you get paid or what your rank is if you know what you are talking about and can back it up. JMHO.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Aug 22 at 2016 1:34 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 13:34:31 -0400

Academic question because it doesn't matter. They'll pay the minimum to maintain body count and structure. BTW just because someone has a college rug doesn't mean they're better at the job their billet requires. Generally job descriptions talk about skills, duties, span of control, etc. In professional categories, BS/MS/PhD are frequently required for licensure. Staff Corps types frequently need specific degrees. So if an ENL has a MBA but is an E-5 striking for E-6, it's all about the ability to perform at the next level with the degree being a Bennie Point if it doesn't account for much of the job. That just means you're overqualified perhaps and should be thinking about going commissioned.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Aug 22 at 2016 2:48 PM

MCPO Roger Collins — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 14:48:55 -0400

Sure, now you suggest that. :))

Response by SGT David T. made Aug 22 at 2016 3:33 PM

SGT David T. — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 15:33:04 -0400

I don't think so. Officers are paid for their education and responsibility. The are accountable more so than the NCO corps is for things that happen or fail to happen. The easy answer is if one wishes to be paid as an officer then become one. Think of it in terms of civilian employment. Enlisted troops are the workers, officers are the managers. Managers always make more than the workers.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2016 5:56 PM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 17:56:00 -0400

Simple, if you want better pay, earn it. Officers had to take extra steps to get their commission (Bachelors or WOCS).

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Aug 22 at 2016 7:20 PM

SFC Joseph Weber — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 19:20:39 -0400

No.

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Aug 22 at 2016 8:30 PM

CPT Tom Monahan — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 20:30:09 -0400

No. I remember as a young FDO that my SSG Section Cheif would remind me that it was my bars is the rounds didn't go where they were susposed to go. As a Company Co. I had to pick who went to war and who stayed in CONUS. My 1SG did his job and advised me. He was my consultant and I valued it highly. However, I choose who went to battle.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Aug 22 at 2016 8:58 PM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 20:58:18 -0400

Responsibilities are different. There's also a small word - COMMAND! Big difference in responsibilities, duties and jobs. Don't matter if a SNCO has college, good for him/her. If they want O pay, then go officer. I had a LTC, early in my career tell me I was officer material, I needed to go OCS. I replied to him - no. I was a NCO and I would not make a very good officer. I'm glad for what I did, and I got paid for what I did.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2016 2:28 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 02:28:53 -0400

No to this specific question, but I don't think you'll find very many people that think Senior NCO's are paid what they deserve. I think the DoD will be in trouble in about 10 years when the new retirement system begins to affect retirement choices. Sr. Enlisted pay will need to be increased in order to retain an NCO Corps.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2016 7:15 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 07:15:48 -0400

Officers go through too much dog and pony for my liking. As much as I would like the pay, the title brings an air that I don't need in my face. Much respect to Officers, but I would ABSOLUTELY HATE to have to inventory the motor pool; "ONE EIGHT INCH CROSS TIP, ARMY MODULATED, SUPER SHAFT REINFORCED, SCREW DRIVER; with handle! Ok everyone hold em up...... SSG, that doesn't look like eight inches..... And does that say Harbor Freight!?!?!? WTF SSG?!???". Me huh, I'll pass. That alone makes me think officers don't get paid enough. If these enlisted cats were smart, they would use there school money to boost their pay the through the year....... But that's none of my business. There are ways to legally get paid more as an enlisted, but the extra grind is a turn off for some. Realistically though, if you don't live above your means, the money won't matter. Our lifestyles as members are crazy sometimes. It's like a lot of enlisted feel entitled to more pay, when they are the ones who decided not to go College before joining, or while serving. I have no gripes, because over all my years in, I've learned that job satisfaction is better than pay; and getting phone calls because Peter piper wanted to disregard the info I put out in my two hour safety brief, is not not the life I want to live. More power to you Sirs and Ma'ams, but my well of patience doesn't run that deep.

R/ Steve

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2016 8:48 AM

A1C Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 08:48:25 -0400

Being a lowly A1C my opinion on this may seem irrelevant. I believe that officers earn their rank based on responsibility and numerous tasks that are given to them daily, which some are far above the ranks of enlisted. However, I do see a lot of people on here saying, they deserve it because of their degree and education. Just a thought... I know pilots who have a bachelors degree in subjects such as history, finance or liberal arts...

Response by SPC John Decker made Aug 23 at 2016 1:55 PM

SPC John Decker — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 13:55:02 -0400

I don't know if the rule still applies. In my time all officers had to pay for their uniforms. Enlisted did not. Officers had to pay for all of their meals. enlisted did not. The idea of SNCO's and some officers performing the same functions is perhaps part of the problem. The educational requirements should be different.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2016 3:24 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 15:24:20 -0400

You know it's a tough call. You can't equate rank in the military to anything on the outside. The full performance rate of a criminal investigator can be GS 12 or 13 on the civ side which is far more than an E-7 would make. In the private sector cyber would yield well over what any E5-W5 brings home. But there is a chain and a structure and though it blends you can always cross over to be sure which side of it you are on. I have far more liability as a 1LT than I knew what I was walking into and I am OK with that, some may not want that burden.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2016 3:49 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 15:49:01 -0400

No. But to be honest NCOS need a raise. I'm not talking about the same scale but they do need a slight increase. To be honest all command positions deserve extra pay. With responsibility and stress, time it involves they should get extra pay. I'm talking, company commands, and 1sg positions

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Aug 23 at 2016 5:42 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 17:42:19 -0400

The answer is no, I myself earned a lot of education throughout my years in the military and was asked throughout to become an Officer, it was my personal choice not to do so. If you wish to make what a senior Officer makes then you should attend Officer programs.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2016 7:44 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 19:44:05 -0400

NCOs do not make policy or command decisions. At the higher levels, they are "advisors" to the commander. I've seen plenty of commanders "go down" alone, but when a NCO goes down, usually the commander is going down with them.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2016 8:43 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 20:43:39 -0400

Absolutely!... If they go OCS/Green to Gold/ Warrant and take on the responsibilities and duties as well.

While there is some overlap in duties and some responibilities, the two jobs (and expectations) are very different. On the enlisted side task/mission execution and face to face Soldier training and development are the day to day requirements. There is admin on the enlisted side but again it is primarily to fulfill the above requirements. The perks of staying enlisted are that you always have top cover, can do your MOS job longer and can generally count on having Soldiers to lead and develop as part of your duty description, which is a good thing BTW.

Officers on the other hand can literally be assigned any job, branch specific, prior experience or not. When in charge of a unit, staff section or task, they are the ones held ultimately responsible for success or failure, no matter the reason. Failed to accomplish part of a task or mission due to unforseen or unplanned causes that were entirely out of your control? Doesnt matter, you should have found a way to make it happen. COB is typically when the job is done, not at a set time of day. Generally speaking, the officers are still at their jobs when the bulk of the unit goes home. Not because they want to, but either because there's a big meeting coming up that needs slides reviewed/edited, big exercise that needs to be planned out and revised for the umpteenth time, or simply because their boss expects them to be there if he/she is there. Believe in sticking to your guns, morals, backing your Soldiers no matter what (which I believe is the right thing to do BTW) just like you did when you were enlisted? That wont fly in most places/units. Lastly, most officers that want/seek leadership time get it in limited amounts. 1-2 years as a platoon leader, 1-2 years as a company commander, 1-2 years as a BN CDR etc, etc. The rest of your career will be spent in staff, school or other assignments taking you far away from Soldiers.

Lastly don't underestimate the sphere of influence a SFC-CSM has vs that of a LT-MAJ. This was one of the toughest things for me when I commisioned and realized no one cares what a LT thinks, regardless of background. You literally start at the bottom again and have zero credibilty until you demonstrate capability. Its a tough pill to swallow if you are only after the money...

Response by SSG Brian Kresge made Aug 23 at 2016 9:58 PM

SSG Brian Kresge — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 21:58:26 -0400

The answer I come back with is ultimately "no."
You could conceivably, in the right MOS, make it to E-9 with no civilian education, merely NCOES and a good track record as a solid performer. And even if you do finish college or grad school, it is not a functional job requirement. There is no outside education requirement. It's also a question of levels of accountability. Even if there are similar functions, I'm very sure that behind a senior NCO the accountability for property or operations will still fall on an officer somewhere in the chain.
Officers take far more "big picture" discipline to attain what they do.
It's not Eloi vs. the Morlocks by any stretch of the imagination, and I know the officer corps appreciates having a highly educated and intelligent NCO corps, especially at senior levels. But we're not a replacement for them.

Don't get me wrong, there are times when I resent making less money, but it's not "less than officers" that I resent. I am not tooting my own horn, but in my civilian career, my take home is higher than an O-6 with 20 years. I serve in the Guard because I love serving in the Guard, but when we mobilize, my civilian employer makes up the difference between my salary and my pay as an E-6 for the first 6 months, a benefit for which I am grateful. But after those 6 months, my income shrinks to 1/4 of what it is normally. It's an acceptable temporary sacrifice, one that's going to get harder once all the kids are in college. If a senior NCO wants more money - it's time to consider a civilian career, WOC, or if it's not too late, commissioning.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Aug 24 at 2016 12:07 AM

CPT Jack Durish — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 00:07:29 -0400

A good question. No. No NCO bears the same responsibility as any commissioned officer. Yes they know more a d do more, but without the responsibility. (Well, at least in theory)

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2016 7:26 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 07:26:48 -0400

Having served as an NCO in my youth and later taking my commission I can speak to both sides of the issue. As an enlisted person I was responsible for my squad and my platoon, but there was always someone there to take the responsibility if my unit failed and it was not me. As a company commander I unfortunately had a piss poor 1SG I inherited from my predecessor. This individual assumed no responsibility when the unit failed to meet the metrix required by the CG, but ultimately it was my predecessor that paid the price not the 1SG. I quickly replaced him with a young SFC who understood what was necessary to turn this unit around. So with great power comes great responsibility, that's where the difference in pay plays out. I do however feel that Senior NCO's need their pay rates increased to be more inline with the responsibility they assume as well.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2016 7:52 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 07:52:56 -0400

If you want the same pay as an officer, go and be an officer. Senior NCOs do a lot for the mission and for troops, but they usually don't have to deal with the politics. That's one reason the pay is different. The duties of a field grade commander and a senior NCO are different as well. Field Grade Commanders have to worry about appeasing the top brass above them, while ensuring mission happens. Senior NCOs have the responsibility to ensure that the mission doesn't interfere with the health and welfare of the troops. Both jobs are important, but they're not interchangeable.

Response by CMSgt Michael Belanger made Aug 24 at 2016 8:18 AM

CMSgt Michael Belanger — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 08:18:22 -0400

If your for equality of pay, get out and join a union, see how that works out for you.

Response by 1LT Kathleen Heisler made Aug 25 at 2016 12:52 AM

1LT Kathleen Heisler — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 00:52:39 -0400

I believe that if you want the pay get the rank that goes with it. I got the pay because I earned the rank.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2017 7:58 PM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 May 2017 19:58:54 -0400

I don't not think they should be paid the same but there should be some effort to narrow the gap a bit for the following reasons:

1. Both enlisted and officers can benefit greatly from a better quality of life. This will, of course, cost more on the enlisted side of things. The more disposable income a soldier has can improve both quality of life and motivation. Some may argue that soldiers will squander and waste it but I do not agree with the school of thought that your rank is indicative of your sense of lifestyle management. It's quite the stereotype that needs to stop, frankly.

2. There are many enlisted with degrees that do not want to commission. Yes, it is true that soldiers are given much access to education but to what end? Unless they want to go to OCS it absolutely serves zero purpose to their current position other than to make Sergeant (which can be accomplished without a degree). I say close the pay gap a bit as an incentive for degree completion should be financial. Also, having a degree does not automitically mean your fit for the job of an officer or warrant. By 'fit' I mean it complements both your professional and personally desires and meets the needs of your organization.

3. I have heard it from other officers that they wish enlisted got paid more because they work the hardest. That should speak for itself.

4. At times I feel that the needs of the enlisted are so varied that the one size fits all approach fails. The needs of an 20 year old specialist are different from the needs of a married 30+ specialist with two kids. I've witnessed this and it concerns me. I wish the pay was a bit higher becaue I see a lot of SPC-SGT's with a lot of personal responsibility.

Many on here seem to think OCS is the answer. However I believe this is just reinforces the anti-intellectual attitude about enlisted lacking advanced knowledge and critical thinking that they can contribute to the ranks.

Response by PO2 Karl Lehn made Jun 13 at 2018 11:28 PM

PO2 Karl Lehn — Wed, 13 Jun 2018 23:28:48 -0400

I will add that if an enlisted man is degreed he should make more that a counterpart with no degree. I'm talking about some sort of alowance for having the degree. Like sea pay, baq, flight pay, etc.

Response by LTC Ray B. (Ret) made Nov 21 at 2019 7:23 PM

LTC Ray B. (Ret) — Thu, 21 Nov 2019 19:23:00 -0500

Response by LTC Ray B. (Ret) made Nov 21 at 2019 7:23 PM

LTC Ray B. (Ret) — Thu, 21 Nov 2019 19:23:23 -0500

No they do not

Response by 1SG William Galeener made Jun 28 at 2022 4:57 AM

1SG William Galeener — Tue, 28 Jun 2022 04:57:32 -0400

Increase Senior NCO’s pay as suggested, especially for those in Command positions.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Jun 28 at 2022 8:33 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Tue, 28 Jun 2022 08:33:39 -0400

An O2 with 2 years (i.e. a PL) makes only very slightly more than an E7 with 12 years (i.e. a PSG). Their duties are close to the same, with a PL having slightly more responsibility.

But a CO has a SHIT-TON more responsibility than a 1SG. And the pay gap jumps to around $600/month (depending on relative TIS). And it widens at BC/CSM, because responsibility gap widens even more.

Which is as it should be.