Should Service Members (all branches) receive national accreditation for their skill sets?

2015-12-24T13:21:42-05:00

Current military accreditation standards are seen as sub-standard. I can only speak for the medical field, but many enlisted positions must receive civilian accreditation to perform specific duties. Why can't our accreditation be as equal, if not greater, than our civilian counter-parts. Not only in the medical fields, but what about our emergency response areas (National Defense) and information operations, networking, etc. I get the civilian sector puts more emphasis on didactic learning, but our real-world experience should get more credit.

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Dec 24 at 2015 1:28 PM

2015-12-24T13:28:20-05:00

I believe it would benefit the military greatly if it borrowed private sector credential standards and ensured that military training included those so that military members could receive civilian accreditation. Perhaps there is some room for civilian credentials to flex to give more field credit for the military, but ultimately if military members want civilian credentials, we should adapt to them, not vice versa in my opinion. We wouldn't give a civilian medic a military MOS just because of their civilian job, so why should the reverse be the case?

One of the our partners, SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member has been doing an outstanding job advocating and education people on this on the Air Force side for Commercial Drivers Licenses. His team is doing some great work!

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Dec 24 at 2015 1:48 PM

2015-12-24T13:48:21-05:00

I look at this much like our formal education accreditation process.

Each MOS producing school, or Correspondence School has the ability to "petition" (not sure if right word) for ACE Accreditation. When a Service Member looks at their Joint Service Transcript (JST), it lists Recommended College Credits based on "Formal" Education.

As an example, Marine Boot Camp was 2 SH (L) in Marksmanship, 1 SH (L) in Orienteering/Outdoor Skills, and 1 SH (L) in Physical Fitness And Conditioning. Each School, and and even Specialty has listings like this, though they may not have been evaluated during a specific time-frame (while in service).

"If" there is a Federal Standard, the MOS producing school should attempt to mirror (and surpass) that standard, so that Accreditation occurs. At the State level, this becomes significantly more difficult however, but... those at the schoolhouse could in theory focus on the most stringent state and attempt to meet that requirement (for an 85% solution).

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Dec 24 at 2015 2:06 PM

2015-12-24T14:06:47-05:00

I like where you are going with this. I was Combat Life Saver qualified and Security Forces (military police) certified prior to retirement. Both meant exactly Jack and Squat upon returning to the civilian world. I've long thought we are doing our service members a great disservice by not having equivalent civilian certifications/licenses concurrently.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 24 at 2015 2:53 PM

2015-12-24T14:53:12-05:00

While it would be fantastic of military training were accepted fully for credentialing, I think it would be even better if the military took civilian credentialing and made that the standard. The medical fields make that particularly ripe for this action. I think everyone would benefit.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Dec 24 at 2015 3:35 PM

2015-12-24T15:35:51-05:00

I support accreditation for MOS training.

Response by PO3 Nathaniel Weber made Dec 24 at 2015 11:40 PM

2015-12-24T23:40:39-05:00

Although part of me says hell yes I think we should receive credit in the civilian world for the training and experience we got in the service, most of us know that the training we got was half assed and not up to industry standards in most cases, this is just my personal experience. We had guys and gals in my unit with 5+ years in that had never worked on a single piece of equipment, never conducted a 3M check, and wouldn't have the first clue about actually doing the job they were "trained" to do.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Dec 25 at 2015 9:54 AM

2015-12-25T09:54:29-05:00

Its a long standing gripe of mine, that I have shared with the most senior leaders in the Military (hey not my fault they always seem to ask that question"SGM, How you doing, what can I do for you")
Not only is it an accreditation issue in parallel civilian skills (Medical, Como, Aviation ect) but education as well.
A Officer goes to Military war college, is taught by accredited professors and walks out with a degree.
An NCO goes to school, is taught by peers or contractors and walks out with a piece of paper saying he has completed a required task.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Dec 25 at 2015 1:10 PM

2015-12-25T13:10:16-05:00

MSG Private RallyPoint Member This is a great idea. As I am sure you are aware, the Army Credentialing On Line or COOL web site depicts all Army MOSs with corresponding civilian certifications, cost for certification, and if the Army or VA will pay for it.

One strong example of this is in Texas by the Texas Commission on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Education (TCLEOSE). TCLEOSE recognizes the US Army CID Apprentice Special Agent Course as a direct replacement for the police academy. You must take the Licensing exam, but you do not have to attend the police academy. There are many others, but none that I know of (other than your military semi-truck driver's license to a Commercial Driver's License in most states without additional requirements) which does not require either a combination of education and an exam or an exam.

This should be something we work towards. I believe the United States Army Military Police School at Fort Leonard Wood, MO did when they became Federal Law Enforcement Training Accreditation (FLETA) recognized. This is the same certification possessed by the Federal Law Enforcement Training Centers, US Marshal's Academy, the Federal Investigative Services Academy, FBI Academy, and DEA academy to name a few.

The topic you bring forth is not only an excellent point for departure from the military but recruiting and retention. Thank you,

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 25 at 2015 6:06 PM

2015-12-25T18:06:34-05:00

I concur with this thread.

Response by SCPO Joshua I made Dec 26 at 2015 11:48 AM

2015-12-26T11:48:09-05:00

In general it's because military schools are years if not decades behind the times. The Navy finally gave up and requires civilian credentialing to work in IT.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2015 11:50 PM

2015-12-26T23:50:08-05:00

Totally agree.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 6:15 AM

2015-12-29T06:15:07-05:00

The topic of CECL (Credentialing, Education, Certification, and Licensing) is a high priority in the 12 CMF (career management field) or Engineers. There are many initiatives underway to take the militarily acquired skills and transition them to the civilian sector. For example plumbers and interior electricians can get their hours from formal training applied toward their Journeyman in some states. Surveyors can likewise take their hours and either apply for credit on their way to a two year degree or study like crazy and write the licensure exam. Horizontal engineers need only write the CDL test as their time as a 12N will qualify for the driving portion. The Engineer Regiment has made great strides in the area of CECL so contacting Fort Leonard Wood would be a great start to see what is available as the list is growing almost monthly.

Response by SPC Donald Tribble made Dec 29 at 2015 8:02 AM

2015-12-29T08:02:15-05:00

I was a Combat Medical Specialist and had to take the EMT-A course while stationed at Fort Meade, MD in order to work on the ambulance. There should be some form of reciprocity or credit towards certification. I spent two semesters rehashing what I got in 10 weeks at Fort Sam Houston.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 8:02 AM

2015-12-29T08:02:17-05:00

I can't believe my post just got deleted, but the main point is that I'd love to look into this more and if there isn't already support for it, let's get something rolling. Anyone taking lead already?
Nicholas J. Garcia, D.O.
Capt, USAF, MC
Flight Surgeon/Family Med
Kadena AB
353rd SOSS/OSM
DSN [login to see]
Com 080-3414-4720

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 8:13 AM

2015-12-29T08:13:46-05:00

This question has been hashed and rehashed, but the simple truth is the rank structure in the military is a relic of the Army of 100 years ago. Enlisted men remain the blue collar workers of the military, warrant officers are the technicians, and officers are white collar.

As 1SG Private RallyPoint Member notes below, a partial solution would be the military adopting civilian credentialing. That's already taking place in the computer fields, although those who really want credit for their knowledge should go ahead and apply to warrant school.

I'm not knowledgeable about the medical field, but the think a PA is normally a warrant officer. So there is the path for you, MSG Private RallyPoint Member.

The one thing a degree offers that a military career doesn't show is the willingness to persevere through a pile of outdated information that you will never use again for four solid years to get a sheepskin. People who aren't willing to recognize that and act accordingly will be relegated to blue collar work. It sucks, but that's the way life is.

It would be wonderful if the world valued our skills as much as we do, but they don't. We do have advantages of discipline and commitment that our civilian counterparts don't have. But these have to be demonstrated. They will not be assumed.

Response by SFC Jeff L. made Dec 29 at 2015 8:48 AM

2015-12-29T08:48:58-05:00

This is a great thread. I recruit for an Engineering, Procurement, and Construction company, and this is one of the obstacles we've chosen to address. Unfortunately there is a gap between civilian and military skills that must be bridged before veterans can hire on at Journey-level pay. There are good reasons for it in some cases, but not in others. For plumbers, electricians, equipment operators, and carpenters I think it would be totally appropriate for the military to adopt NCCER curriculum and evaluation standards. For welders on the other hand, the training required to be employable in our industry is extensive, and well beyond the needs of the military, so it doesn't make financial sense to adopt those credentialing standards. What we and others are doing instead is developing and implementing a training curriculum for separating soldiers at Ft Polk (gotta start somewhere) to enter a 16 week craft training program with employment on the other end at one of our construction projects in LA or TX.

Anyone in, or with connections in, TRADOC are the folks who need to tackle this topic. The civilian sector isn't going to lower credentialing standards to accommodate military training for a few reasons (like safety and quality), so the military is going to have to be the one to step up their game.

Response by SGT Edward Clark made Dec 29 at 2015 9:19 AM

2015-12-29T09:19:22-05:00

In some MOS yes

Response by SSgt Frank Lanford made Dec 29 at 2015 9:26 AM

2015-12-29T09:26:45-05:00

I agree, I spent 12 years in Law Enforcement, I was a Patrol Watch Sgt. (the Air Force calls them Flight Chiefs), and a Military Police Investigator, I have degrees in Criminal Justice, Criminal Law and Administration of Justice, in addition to the Federal Certification as an Air Force Police Investigator, but the Civilian world ONLY cares IF you have a "State" Peace Officer's Standards Training Certificate (POST), which is like requiring a Doctor to get certified as a Nurse's Aide before they can be hired.

I know SOME States now accept Military Police (and other job categories) credentials as acceptable to hire off the streets, but very few, and my state is NOT one of them. The ONLY crumb of bread that my Military Police time has gotten me, is the ability to carry a concealed weapon in all 50 states under the Law Enforcement Officer's Safety Act (LEOSA) and that federal law only came about for Retired and ex Military cops in 2013. (I got out in 1994). ** But at least the Dept. of The Air Force still gave me my credentials after an FBI background investigation etc.

It is time that ALL Military members get some REAL credit for all of our training and experience.

Response by LCpl Christopher Pickett made Dec 29 at 2015 10:10 AM

2015-12-29T10:10:01-05:00

I absolutely agree. A perfect example is 2 separate cases; first my friend was a fire rescue Marine at Camp Pendleton and 29 Palms. He spend nearly 10 years doing that, yet when he left the Corps he was unable to get a job in the same field in the civilian sector at airports without going to a firefighting academy or equivalent and getting civilian certification for everything he already spent a large time in the Marines doing. To top it off, for the certification he would still have to pay for the testing, schooling, and final certification evend though military air fire rescue tends to be more intensive with its requirements than its civilian counterparts due to risk of live ordinance being on burning aircraft. Why dosent the civilian sector accept military experience and training as equivalent to civilian requirements?

Secondly my mother rejoined the Air Force after I finished boot camp for the Marines. She finished final training as a KC-135 crew chief and maintenance. She spent about 8 years or so doing that before a minor injury put her at a desk where she now approves aircraft flight status prior to the aircraft being launched. The same issue as my friend happened. She was reviewing a possible transition to the civilian sector in the same field before she found that she would have to do all the exact same training she has already done just to complete the requirements for certification as a civilian equivalent. Because of this she decided to remain in the Air Force active reserve to finish her 30 year retirement instead of being able to transition directly into a civilian job that would pay about 2 times more than she makes now.

I think the civilian sector should allow military service members a smooth transition into civilian job equivalents by just directly certifying them if their job has an exact equivalent, since many service members jobs do not have any civilian counterparts such as infantry or any weapon class combat paths like LAV gunners, etc. Or at the least the military should provide civilian certifications for those that have perfect civilian equivalents so that when they leave the service they don't end up jobless and struggling. How many service members are stuck flipping burgers because the police or fight fighters won't accept former MPs or military firefighters unless they go through a police or firefighter academies? For a large majority of civilian equivalents to military MOS' to not accept veterans directly into the job market is ridiculous. Most non combat MOS' match civilian jobs perfectly and should not need additional training or certifications, and to force veterans to go through that is not only disheartening, but plain disrespectful. Everyone wonders why so many veterans are committing suicide after they end their service. Many veteran suicides are from non combat jobs. When our country puts so much stress and demands on service members and then just drops them jobless when they leave the service, it makes their lives very difficult.

When our country constantly asks why there are so many unemployed veterans, yet fails to hold us up when we leave the service is plain hypocritical and cruel. Stop asking why, and start asking how can we make sure we get our veterans jobs when they leave, and not jobs at a fast food joint or scrubbing toilets. Real careers are needed. It shouldn't be that difficult to either pressure the civilian market to provide simple certification via a free test (to validate they have the necessary skills), or the military ought to provide civilian certification while we are in active duty. It wouldn't be very difficult to do this either. Most Marines take MCI courses, why not just add a few tests to their jobs so that when they leave the service, they can immediately transition into the job market. It is much easier to get a job when you have civilian accepted certifications.

Just my two cents.

Response by PO2 Gerry Tandberg made Dec 29 at 2015 10:27 AM

2015-12-29T10:27:33-05:00

The training I received as an Aviation Electrician's Mate in the Navy was eight hours a day for twenty-two weeks. It started out with an overview of basic math, ending in transposition of algebraic equations before moving into basic DC and AC theory. This school was the equivalent of two years in a college classroom environment. Then I gained three years of practical experience repairing aircraft in the fleet. When I finally returned to civilian life none of my military schools or practical experience mattered when trying to get a job as an electrician. The IBEW (International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers) basically told me my military training was irrelevant, and if I wanted to become a represented electrician I'd have to join the union, and go through their entire two year school. All this was very disappointing, so I changed my plans, leaned on my three years of HS drafting, and became a draftsman and eventually a mechanical designer. However, I never lost my electrical skills and continue to apply them in community service projects and building projects for Wounded Warriors. Had I remained in the Navy I have no doubt I would have advanced quickly because I was motived, loved my job, and was very good at it. However, there seems to be very few civilian jobs where an organization or employer will accept military accreditation for an equivalent, or similar OES. It seem that nothing has changed in the past 50 years.

Response by SFC Joseph Dunphy made Dec 29 at 2015 11:11 AM

2015-12-29T11:11:51-05:00

Agreed, especially in the medical field. As an EMT, I have seen trained and experienced combat medics have to retake courses that they should actually be teaching, just to transition from the military to civilian carreers. One was even a parajumper, who had to jump through hoops to even enter a paramedic certification course! With the critical shortage of paramedics, and nurses, having medics re-take courses they already know is a HUGE waste if time and resources. These vets would be ideal candidates to help the Veterans Administration take care of veterans, too, so the whole process of states dragging their heels on reciprocity recognition of medic credentials constitutes workplace discrimination. It hurts the trained veterans, the public that needs health services, and the VA patients who are backlogged in receiving care. In health care, people who are not treated correctly die or get sicker. The status quo hurts the whole country.

Response by SGT Robert Andrews made Dec 29 at 2015 11:23 AM

2015-12-29T11:23:42-05:00

The Civilian world does not understand what we do in the military. They do not understand how complex our jobs are and It puts V veterans at a disadvantage
when the standards in the military to do a job basically the same job as a civilian but
the veteran can't do that job because
they don't meet civilian accredation. It would make sense for the standards to change but those changes need to start at the Pentagon level and work with department of education. Under the Administration of Obama don't count on it.

Response by Cpl Dr Ronnie Manns made Dec 29 at 2015 11:29 AM

2015-12-29T11:29:31-05:00

I established the Military Occupational Skills Conversion Institute or MOSCI to give military members that option. I cannot find a good enough reason why spending time in a classroom learning from a book about skills required is worth more than practical application of those same principles. I am working on getting the accreditation equal and I will not rest until I have succeeded.

Response by COL John Power made Dec 29 at 2015 11:40 AM

2015-12-29T11:40:20-05:00

There surely is a disconnect. I know that service members who attend various schools do get some credit, but then must complete a civilian course to get full accreditation. It seems to me that the various schools commands should assure all civilian criteria are met, at least for their location. I recall visiting the prison at Leavenworth, KS and they has actually arranged with the State of Kansas to give certificates of training for certain skills programs provide prisoners so they could use those skills in jobs once released! Why couldn't a TRADOC school (I'm an Army guy) assure that the required material for certification in their state, be met by the Army School? Seems to me to be pretty easy to do and incredibly worthwhile. We know 90% of the servicemembers don't serve until retirement. We need to be equipping them to make an easy transition to civilian life for their benefit and for the economy.

Response by CDR William Kempner made Dec 29 at 2015 11:57 AM

2015-12-29T11:57:52-05:00

I think in many cases that if training is similar, or as part of the military training, in some areas, they can include teaching to a civilian standard, i.e. EMT, some of the medical skills, etc. In other areas, not so sure. I remember a number of my sr. enlisted guys when I was in USAF, getting degrees from "diploma mills', majoring in Air Traffic Control(!!??) from The University of What's Happening Now! They still couldn't write a report properly, using proper grammar, or present it. It allowed them to become officers (this was in USAF) and they'd make O-3 and retire. You have to admire their thought process, but having a bachelor's degree is SUPPOSED to make you half-way educated (or at least it used to be!) . I would have to re-do all of their reports. Very accomplished on the job in the field, but they wouldn't last two weeks in a corporate environment. They'd have done fine as Air traffic controllers, but you have to be careful to ensure that the qualifications really mean something, and that it isn't a rubber stamp.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 1:13 PM

2015-12-29T13:13:41-05:00

couple things:
1 money----every state/county/school system wants to get money for providing accreditation to its folks they don't want to take someone else's word that folks are trained to their standards.
2. man-power----if you give junior enlisted the skill set to make more money on the outside they will leave the service.
3. pay levels- the services in general do not want to pay the equivalent of civilian pay to retain good people (see #2) (this was demonstrated with the Nurse Tech program back in the 80-90s time frame folks got their degree did their time and left leaving holes in manning across the board.

Now don't get me wrong....I'd love it if there was a national board that recognized that a 7/9 level should be treated as a college graduate....but i just dont see it happening....would been nice...to late for me...but my son is still in so be nice for him to be able to walk out with usable credentials.

Response by Col Jincy Hayes made Dec 29 at 2015 2:06 PM

2015-12-29T14:06:29-05:00

There is currently movement in Congress to have the skill sets apply to both civ and mil. To be honest, the military has more experience in certain fields with much more hands on time than a new graduate. I hope this gets changed soon. Our veterans deserve better.

Response by SPC Ryan Leach made Dec 29 at 2015 3:39 PM

2015-12-29T15:39:50-05:00

Yes! It is complete waste of time for SM's to receive training if the results do not provide relevant accreditation in the civilian sector. The military needs to invest in its SMs, and an easy way to do this is to make sure that SMs receive relevant educational accreditation for every second of military training and OTJ experience. If the military did its duty to SMs, a person leaving military service should be the most qualified applicants in their respective civilian career fields.

Response by Sgt Carol Grisham made Dec 29 at 2015 5:27 PM

2015-12-29T17:27:51-05:00

Absolutely! When I got out, I had 432 classroom hours of training, seven years working in my field and had completed four continuing education courses required for promtion, as well as a number of correspondence courses via the Marine Corps Institute (also necessary for promotion). Yet, the only way to get a job in the field, I had to have a Degree from some (expensive_ University. When I started attending college, the only credits I got for all of that experience was one credit of basic math (I had been regularly doing Calculus in the MOS), one credit of Health and Hygene and one credit of PE. However, I learned a valuable lesson: civilian employers want the piece of paper rather than an employee who can actually perform the job.

Response by SSgt Hal Longworth made Dec 29 at 2015 11:30 PM

2015-12-29T23:30:09-05:00

My response concerns the crossover of military medics. I'm a Vietnam veteran. Several years after leaving the military, I became a certified Paramedic/Firefighter and eventually became a Paramedic instructor. At the time, all Emergency Medical Technicians had to meet or exceed Federal minimal guidelines. I know military medics that certainly exceeded those minimum guidelines and their field skills certainly exceeded mine. The facts are that EMT's are licensed and certified to practice by each individual State, and in some States, individual counties. We have the National Registry of EMT's that is recognized and accepted by many States.
I will contact the National Registry to see if I can obtain more information on Military reciprocity for EMT's.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made Dec 29 at 2015 11:35 PM

2015-12-29T23:35:17-05:00

Sp4 Byron Skinner. The medical MOS's that require the exact same requirements and a certificated from an accredited institution is awarded of course but with in most trades there is little training that may be reliant to the civilian situation. Institutional food service is perhaps another if the military still even does food service anymore. The days of KP are looooong gone.

Response by Maj Kim Patterson made Dec 30 at 2015 1:10 AM

2015-12-30T01:10:43-05:00

Emergency Response was mentioned. If you are referring to disaster preparedness, response and disaster mitigation, there was grandfathering into FEMA from the Air Force Career field (enlisted and officer.) I was certified in Incident Command and Control by the National Fire Academy, amongst my other certifications. It only required a form filled out and filed. (Back in the dark ages.)

Response by SGT Ronald Audas made Dec 31 at 2015 9:55 AM

2015-12-31T09:55:32-05:00

A little different observation;Education is big business.The curriculum is ever changing.Many times this event does not make you more knowledgable,but adds monies to the educational coffers.Therefore creating a certification.Forward thinking companies will take your skillset,train you to their standards,and move you accordingly.

Response by SPC Jerry Crain made Jan 2 at 2016 2:28 PM

2016-01-02T14:28:13-05:00

I totally agree. Hands on training and field repairs take much more skill. What the book says is wrong is not always the case. Going beyond the book knowledge increases your skill level
.

Response by Sgt Alan Voracek made Jan 5 at 2016 4:41 PM

2016-01-05T16:41:48-05:00

I agree with you Peter. I re-built jet engines in the Marine Corps. Not one of the engines I worked on failed due to subpar performance. I feel we should at least be given the opportunity to test out instead of attending more schooling on a subject we already have several years experience in.

Response by MAJ Scott Meehan made Jan 7 at 2016 2:34 PM

2016-01-07T14:34:48-05:00

Yes, in every respect. There is no better substitute than On-the-job training (OJT) in a fast-past, diverse environment.