Should service members be able to bring personal weapons on deployment?

2021-01-11T14:34:45-05:00

During my 2nd Iraq tour, our E7 platoon Sergeant got into a lot of trouble for bringing his own shotgun and AR15. He was removed from our company and we don't know the details of his punishment beyond that. But it got me thinking... Wouldn't it be a good idea to let senior NCO's and officers bring their own personal firearms on deployments? I certainly think so. What are your thoughts?

Response by PO1 Mary Vermont made Jan 11 at 2021 2:37 PM

2021-01-11T14:37:40-05:00

Isn’t kind of ridiculous that you can carry a gun to defend your so called country but not to protect yourself

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Jan 11 at 2021 2:40 PM

2021-01-11T14:40:34-05:00

Personally I am for it, but higher up generally have a cow about it, but on the other side of the coin, who doesn't think that they might be carrying their own, and think that it's ok SPC July Macias

Response by LTC Eugene Chu made Jan 11 at 2021 2:42 PM

2021-01-11T14:42:40-05:00

Remember that as American military, we abide by our own regulations and previous international conventions that the US agreed to. We use officially issued government weapons and ammunition when deployed based on legality and accountability

https://taskandpurpose.com/gear-tech/5-crazy-weapons-banned-war/

5 Crazy Weapons That Are Banned From War - Task & Purpose

Long gone are the days when war was governed by an “anything goes” system. As weaponry has become more advanced, so have the rules of warfare. Practices

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Jan 11 at 2021 2:42 PM

2021-01-11T14:42:45-05:00

Perhaps some of our friends more familiar with current regs could speak on problems therein, however, I know some of our squadron brought their personal firearms to VN. It seems it would be even more simple if you were deployed with your unit and could get the CO's permission.

Response by SSG Paul Headlee made Jan 11 at 2021 2:45 PM

2021-01-11T14:45:55-05:00

Case by case, maybe. I've known some good ones and some not so good.

Response by CW3 Harvey K. made Jan 11 at 2021 2:50 PM

2021-01-11T14:50:19-05:00

I recall my career Marine brother served in Korea with a S&W Combat Masterpiece revolver. I was rather young at the time, but I think it was a popular personal weapon among the troops. It might have been the advantage of a double-action sidearm in speed of firing, in contrast to a .45 with regulations stating the chamber had to be empty.

Response by SGT Christopher Hayden made Jan 11 at 2021 3:06 PM

2021-01-11T15:06:12-05:00

Just wait until you're there and use some of the commandeered weapons you find instead. Plenty of ammo laying around for those things too. Then just dump them in a river before you redeploy.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Jan 11 at 2021 3:10 PM

2021-01-11T15:10:31-05:00

Without delving into the regs this on surface is a bad idea. First off is accountability for those weapons and the ammunition. Second is the fact of loadouts, as while those are personal weapons the NCO and Officers are required to use military provided weapons. Them using their own adds minimum 10+ pounds to a loadout and means an extra weapon they have to lug about. Then there is the matter of ammunition usability. Is the NCO or Officer going to pack in hundreds of rounds for each weapon? The Unit certainly cannot be expected to take up that load. What kind of service condition is the weapon on prior to and during deployment? Maintaining that weapon puts an added strain on the unit armorers.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Jan 11 at 2021 3:17 PM

2021-01-11T15:17:11-05:00

A few years ago this wouldn't even be a thought in anyones head (that had common sense) as it was just a big common sense "NO" but I guess testing the bounders includes throwing away your career now.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jan 11 at 2021 3:53 PM

2021-01-11T15:53:29-05:00

Prior to fielding or deploying any weapon and weapon system, including non-lethal weapons, cyber weapons and cyber weapon systems, DOD requires the legal review of the acquisition or procurement be reviewed to ensure compliance with all applicable U.S. domestic law and international legal obligations of the United States, whether derived from LOAC, international law, international agreements, customary international law. (See DODD 5000.01, ¶E1.1.15). To implement this policy, all weapons, weapon systems, and munitions must receive a legal review by an attorney authorized by the Military Department. For the Marine Corps, the Judge Advocate General of the Navy (Code 10) has been authorized to conduct the legal review (see SECNAVINST 5000.2E) and OTJAG-NSL has been authorized to conduct legal reviews for the Army (see AR 27-53).

Response by CPL Douglas Chrysler made Jan 11 at 2021 4:42 PM

2021-01-11T16:42:08-05:00

From the first touch of the 1911 I fell in love. It was military issue and broke my heart when I had to leave it behind. The thing is, I was opened up to all sorts of new weapons that I never would have experienced had I used my own.

Response by SFC Kathy Pepper made Jan 11 at 2021 5:11 PM

2021-01-11T17:11:50-05:00

Senior NCOs are not more mature or reliable simply based on their rank. In Iraq in 2010, my 1SG would pull his military issued 45 on Soldiers as a joke (seriously?). One day, he drew his weapon on a Soldier in anger. He pulled it in such a way to show it did not hold a clip, but the bolt was forward so there was no proof that it did have a round chambered. Let’s have a show of hands of those who think that he, a senior NCO, can be trusted bringing his own weapon on a deployment.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2021 5:49 PM

2021-01-11T17:49:21-05:00

As much as I've always wanted to bring my own stuff (man I wanted either my suppressed 5.56 or long barrel 6.8 while over there, 3 new receivers enroute - looking at a .458 SOCOM, 6.5 Creedmoor, and a .227 Wolverine).. I've always been told "if it doesn't say U.S. Govt Colt Hartford, CT" then it's still considered murder rather than just warfare.

Response by Maj John Bell made Jan 11 at 2021 6:04 PM

2021-01-11T18:04:16-05:00

I have a serious problem with leaders who can afford top shelf gear of any kind, while their troops have to make due with whatever is issued. No bones about it I am a real prick on the issue.

If you aren't carrying what your troops are carrying (obvious exception due to the TO/E) than you don't know the difficulties and capabilities of your troops. Plus you may have just created a logistics nightmare. Are the logistical requirements to support your private gear identical to the support the issue gear?

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2021 6:31 PM

2021-01-11T18:31:49-05:00

-Part of it is rooted in the Geneva Convention. Weapons and ammunition must comport to the agreed-upon standard. There’s a reason we don’t use rounds dipped in poison, or triangle-shaped bayonets from the Civil War. If you use only issued weapons, you (and the U.S. Govt) know you’re complying. If you bring your own weapon, we can’t guarantee compliance. You open yourself up to liability (like war crimes), and so does the government.

-The armorers can’t work on your personally-owned weapon. It’s not legal.
-The supply system can’t provide parts for your personally-owned weapon. It’s not legal.
-U.S. law prohibits chambering civilian ammunition into a military weapon (see liability).
-U.S. law prohibits chambering military ammo in your civilian weapon. See liability.

Police are permitted to carry their own weapon, if they choose. But it must be registered in their inventory system to make it legal. They must qualify on it quarterly, like their issue weapons. And if it’s used in a shooting, it may become evidence, and the officer may not get it back for quite some time.

When you carry your personal weapon on deployment, are you prepared to deal with all this?

Response by Wayne Soares made Jan 11 at 2021 6:35 PM

2021-01-11T18:35:05-05:00

Thanks for the question July

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2021 7:01 PM

2021-01-11T19:01:09-05:00

Nah bad idea. Government issued may not always be the best quality wise, but at least the military knows what if anything is wrong with it. POWs can be some 200

Response by SFC Pat Mattson made Jan 11 at 2021 8:58 PM

2021-01-11T20:58:34-05:00

Before the First Gulf, when everyone in Germany was deploying their gear went through customs and the local MPs (me and a company of others) combed through the those Bradley’s, M1s, and CONEXa and found a boat load of personal weapons and booze. However, I know a lot got past us. There must have been 20-30 different weapons and maybe different 6 calibers. So the moral of the story is if you can’t get the ammo from supply don’t bring it and don’t get CAUGHT.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jan 11 at 2021 9:13 PM

2021-01-11T21:13:07-05:00

Because every weapon and munition we are issued down range is approved under operational law review and we will not have a violation of the law of land warfare. If there is an issue it’s on the government and not you as an individual. You freelance and there are problems.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Jan 11 at 2021 10:34 PM

2021-01-11T22:34:28-05:00

As long as in the orders you're good. If not it's bad juju

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2021 11:29 PM

2021-01-11T23:29:47-05:00

You can, just not common. Hell, my current deployment I was authorized personal weapons.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Jan 12 at 2021 2:05 AM

2021-01-12T02:05:25-05:00

For some reason, I was allowed a M1911 when I was skipper out East Timor way. It was government issue. Everyone else has M9s. Back in CONUS we had to do paperwork to be "legit" on personally owned service match weapons for our practice and competitive shoots at varied locations, some foreign. Always felt good about being covered by paper. The armorers at NWS Crane worked on both our personal and service owned inventory.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Jan 12 at 2021 5:46 AM

2021-01-12T05:46:16-05:00

Sounds dangerous to me. The biggest issue I have with it is that those weapons are not covered by Army regulations, Army inspection or Army maintence cycles. Your relying 100% on said NCO to maintain their personal weapon to standards of the weapon manufacturer, ensure they do not make modifications to it that impact safety or performance and once that weapon is on the battlefield and say dropped or the NCO falls and another soldier picks it up for use............do they know it's history and can they have confidence the weapon is one maintained and monitored by the Army vs a private individual? Lets say a Private takes over the weapon, fires it and the chamber blows up in his face and event that would probably be witnessed by others.........what effect will that have on the troops? So NO, stick with what is issued, maintained and supervised by the Army.

Response by MSgt Dale Johnson made Jan 12 at 2021 9:39 AM

2021-01-12T09:39:22-05:00

My only view of this is if there was no guidance who knows what type of weapon some may opt to being with them and there would be no way to ensure they were not using something that had an Illegal implication. I am sure that there are some types of weapons that are banned by the Geneva convention, do we still go by that? Many on here I am sure are much better versed on this than I am.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jan 12 at 2021 10:14 AM

2021-01-12T10:14:33-05:00

No. The weapons issued are standardized to enable logistic support. Ammunition and parts are in the supply system to support the issued weapons. (Or they should be). Personal weapons shouldn’t be supported by government logistics system because it puts an undue burden on the system. Also it may be a violation of host country laws to import firearms without permission, licenses or in some places at all.

Response by SFC Patrick M. made Jan 12 at 2021 10:22 AM

2021-01-12T10:22:44-05:00

I agree.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2021 12:08 PM

2021-01-12T12:08:13-05:00

Government issue should suffice, but I understand why one would want to. It's more common with special operators, and they seem to make it work. Whether it is their personal weapon or one modified within the unit, they battle with the weapons they are most familiar and comfortable with.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2021 1:21 PM

2021-01-12T13:21:34-05:00

As much as I'd like to have My personal Ruger P90.45ACP, and Ruger SR/AR-10, they're both obsolete/out of production, as far as Ruger is concerned. Acquisition of repair parts becomes a problem. Not good in a combat situation. You can bet the Unit Armorer has repair parts for the Issue Weapon though.

Response by PO1 Christopher Gómez made Jan 12 at 2021 1:40 PM

2021-01-12T13:40:58-05:00

All of the military regulations and international treaties aside, there is a simple good reason for not allowing personal weapons on deployments.

We use the same weapons so that in the heat of combat we can grab ammo from our teammates if we run out. If someone is using a personal weapon chambered in .40 instead of NATO 9mm, for instance, this creates a problem. Even if our weapon malfunctions and we grab one from a fallen or wounded comrade, we may not be familiar or proficient in it and it can cost lives on our side.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2021 2:23 PM

2021-01-12T14:23:04-05:00

I would advise against it... I had a friend that took his own weapon to the first Persian Gulf War. I guess he strapped it to his body somehow concealed, and got it on the plane. You might make it flying from an Army or Air Force base, but if you get diverted to a civilian airport you might get in trouble. Leave the POW at home in my opinion!

Response by SSG Darrell Peters made Jan 12 at 2021 2:32 PM

2021-01-12T14:32:06-05:00

There is a process for bringing a personal weapon. As usual, it involves paperwork and the approving authority is usually at the Company or Battalion Level. A case in point General Swartzkopt had his personal shotgun in Iraq where he slept. The issue is Ammunition and if government ammunition can be used in t personal firearm. General Custer's Officers had their own personal weapons and ammunition because the government ammunition with copper casings was extremely defective. There is a process a complicated process to bring your own personal weapon to a War Zone it is extremely discouraged.
The U.S. Marshal's for example is issued a pistol by the DOJ, they can carry their personal firearm if it is different from what was issued if requested and if they Qualify with it.
The issue of Personal Firearms in the Military deal with a lot of issues. Legal Liability being at the top of the list. The next legal issue is the use of Government Ammunition in a Personal Weapon or the procurement of ammunition for a personal weapon.
I have not seen the current regulation concerning this since my Retirement and would be grateful to anyone who could refer it to me.

Response by PO1 Sanford Snyder made Jan 12 at 2021 3:39 PM

2021-01-12T15:39:17-05:00

So you are saying if your personally owned weapons are damaged beyond repair, you will replace them? Yeah, right. Let's see how that works when that happens in the field, far beyond sources Remember, you can't send firearms thru the mail, especially into combat zones.

Response by COL Thomas F. made Jan 14 at 2021 1:40 PM

2021-01-14T13:40:39-05:00

When I was in Afghanistan in 2004-05, I came across an E-7 with a sawed off shotgun strapped to his 3-day pack. My first thought was, "who the ... does he think he is, John Wayne?". Then more practical thoughts hit like, how is he going to get that thing off his bag when engaged (strapped to his bag remember)?; where is he going to get rounds outside his supply system?; and How is he going to get that back through customs when he goes home? Bringing your personally owned weapons, IMHO, is just stupid, and illegal. First, as stated above, weapons used in war are regulated by the Geneva convention as far as type and usage. So if you bring ammunition or weapons that violate the premise of "causing unnecessary suffering", you can be prosecuted - and I have personally seen this happen to friends in Iraq. Second, DoD provides weapons and ammunition that meets the mission needs of its forces, including the SOF community. Even if there is a type of weapon a solider needs, there is a process that can procure it. Third, all weapons and ammunition is approved and tracked before its even put on a transport. Anything found not on that roster will be confiscated. Bottom line, I would advise you to persuade people from thinking in this direction. This isn't WWII where Customs doesn't check your bags, and souvenirs like enemy weapons are ok to bring home. This violation will not only impact the delusional Soldier in question with probable criminal charges (think SOFA agreements), but can relieve people of their command or other leadership positions. In addition, the whole unit can be put in lock down for an undetermined duration (I saw it happen to an MP Company during Desert Storm). Its just not worth the risk.
https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/RC-Weapons.pdf

RC-Weapons.pdf

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Response by SSG Thomas Fuller made Jan 15 at 2021 8:08 AM

2021-01-15T08:08:49-05:00

No, Geneva Convention considerations aside, what could you bring the Army doesn’t issue?

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2021 6:26 AM

2021-02-25T06:26:16-05:00

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made Jan 3 at 2022 6:53 PM

2022-01-03T18:53:57-05:00

It sounds like the Army is teaching too many BS classes & not enough Laws of Land Warfare. Weapons & rounds that are manufactured or deliberately modified to inflict more pain & suffering are prohibited. Yes, our enemies tend to do whatever they want. Bring your deer rifle out & load it up with some soft points. Kill an enemy combatant & the next thing you know the Russians, Iranians, North Koreans, & Chinese will be accusing the entire US military of using something inhumane. My dad taught me when I was a kid on how to make dumb-dumb rounds like the Marines used in the Pacific. Times have changed since then. We have to keep war more humane now.

Response by SPC Roger Dunn made Jan 3 at 2022 7:07 PM

2022-01-03T19:07:59-05:00

We I was in Iraq in 2003 one of my squad members had his compound bow sent with alot of arrows....he did send a few down range not sure if he hit any one.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 3 at 2022 9:24 PM

2022-01-03T21:24:21-05:00

Don't circumvent the system. The TOE is set up for a reason. If it is not correct, work to fix it, don't work around the regulation.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Jan 3 at 2022 10:51 PM

2022-01-03T22:51:59-05:00

No, it’s ridiculous, there’s a reason to the commonality of the ammo. Standardized weapons are so very basic and necessary. Unless its changed .223 for rifles, .308 for semis, both NATO standards.

Response by Sgt William Margeson made Jan 4 at 2022 2:34 PM

2022-01-04T14:34:55-05:00

Using military issue weapos and ammo is legal. The use of personal weapons subjects the user to criminal charge of murder if captured. Was told thin in mid 60' while in Marine Corps.