Should service members that commit adultery be processed for discharge and be given an OTH?

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:02:48 -0500

Adultery is punishable under the UCMJ, but I personally have never seen it executed. I know a lot of service members will phlander while deployed, and likewise, their civilian spouses. With divorce running rampant through the military, divorce rate in excess of 50%, should commands be coming down harder on members that 'cheat'? There are numerous problems with this: there are those that make up stories to ruin a career, is it he said/she said, difficult to prove, do you bring all three witnesses into a court setting to get statements. I would imagine the only time it actually becomes a problem, is when two married service members get involved and it becomes a 'black eye' for the unit. Or in cases where there is fraternization accompanied with adultery...in the chain of command.
I bring up this question because I feel the military could do more, and should institute a pro-active approach to increasing successful marriages. Coming down on cheaters is just one thought. The problem I see with this is the military member gets punished but not the civilian spouse...it is one sided.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 4:15 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:15:25 -0500

You pose an interesting question, SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member. Definitely thought-provoking, but maybe not practical.

I guess the military could institute such a standard: dishonorable or OTH discharge for adultery. If implemented, I think something like that would definitely (no question) cause some folks to think twice about - and possibly stop short of - committing adultery.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Nov 28 at 2014 4:16 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:16:39 -0500

I have seen someone get hit for it a few times over my career. It was never a charge by itself, but part of a whole list of charges.

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Nov 28 at 2014 4:27 PM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:27:23 -0500

No i do not think they should be discharge and given a OTH. We all make mistakes; and to ruin a persons life over a personal indiscretion is absurd. I have seen someone who was brought up on charges of adultery they were a great sailor they just strayed they went on restriction the only reason his rank was reduced was because his indiscretion was with a junior troop. I have strayed back early in my marriage and my wife found out we both were adults and sought counseling and now we are very happily married. Where would i be if 5 years into my career i would of been discharged with a OTH. It would of ruined my marriage and i would of lost benefits. SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member would you want to be discharged because of one stupid mistake that is not even illegal.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 4:42 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:42:41 -0500

SMH. This silliness needs to stop. This is nothing but another tool to marginalize the services. I see no inherent value except by those who hate the military.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 4:44 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:44:46 -0500

I do not support anymore social B.S. Enough already and that is not an endorsement of cheating but a slap to the face to those who advocate more mischief.

Response by LCpl Clif Crosswhite made Nov 28 at 2014 4:57 PM

LCpl Clif Crosswhite — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 16:57:18 -0500

There was a Gunny when I was in mos school who got caught messing around a PFC and was demoted and then discharged I don't know what he was demoted to or what he discharged under but I agree with it I hate cheaters I don't put up with it

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 10:25 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 22:25:01 -0500

Unless one of the people involved admitted the act or you have film that clearly shows the act, it's hard to prove. A command only has so much time and people, an adultery task force was never one of my priorities.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 11:29 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 11:29:08 -0500

SSG LoGuidice,

I am in complete agreement.

The difficultly however, ultimately comes in proving it in legal proceedings. You essentially need photographic evidence or an admission of guilt from one of the parties to successfully prosecute adultery. I suspect that is why it's so often over-looked as opposed to prosecute.

We do have an approach to increasing successful marriages in the Army. MRT training and chaplain sponsered marriage retreats.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 2:30 PM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 14:30:12 -0500

If we go to the origin of what is a marriage, we can see how being unfaithful to your family can lead into question your ethics and credibility for the country you promised to protect. Your word is your word, without it you are nothing. Cheating is wrong and we all know it, all know the pain it brings and how destructive it can be. I believe punishment while enlisted is appropriate and you shouldn't be allowed to cheat without serious consequences. Think of what allowing this behavior raises. A culture that finds a sense of normalcy in committing adultery. Maybe that ties into the high divorce rates. I also believe if the spouse whom is not a service member should have some more serious consequences as well. I can go on for days on how many members got cheated on while they were deployed. That's quite infuriating. I guess setting the precedent will minimize these acts and build a new bridge with members and their conduct at home. To act accordingly in all aspects of their lives, not just at work. Overall being cheated on sucks and we can at the very least agree on that. It's wrong and it hurts.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Nov 29 at 2014 4:25 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 16:25:25 -0500

Make the parties involved incrue portions of the divorce proceedings. Morals are easier to enforce on some when money is involved...lol.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 6:07 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 18:07:59 -0500

For the record, I've had a few courts-martial with adultery as a charge. Even though the civilians do not prosecute we tend to because it's prejudice to good order and discipline and/or beings discredit to the armed forces.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 7:04 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 19:04:39 -0500

When you wrote: "I feel the military could do more, and should institute a pro-active approach to increasing successful marriages," you were on the money, but your proposed solution is way off.

First, it goes after one aspect of marriage, fidelity, that usually isn't a problem until the marriage is in trouble for other reasons (e.g., physical or emotional distance, stress, financial problems, etc.). You don't cure or prevent anything by addressing symptoms.

Second, the ramifications for adultery are already so harsh that the non-offending spouse already knows through the rumor mill NOT to report their military spouse. Better to divorce him/her in civilian court and let the military member keep the job that can pay child support, alimony, and college benefits, than to blow the whistle to military authorities. Your proposal of OTH discharge would make things worse, not better.

Third, crimes of passion - for lack of a different term - rarely are dissuaded by threatened consequences. People in a bar fight know assault is against the law, but in the moment, it doesn't enter into the decision making process. This would be no different. Additionally, people committing adultery specifically plan not to get caught. Adding more consequences for getting caught only means it is all the more important not to get caught. There's a big difference between that and not doing it in the first place.

If you truly care about military marriages, and I completely agree that there needs to be more effort focused on this, look at advocating for things like longer periods between PCSs, more real support during deployment (not dumping everything on the FRG), a closer look at how we handle the work day (could we do better at managing the work week to 40 hours?), and things like that. Looking to affix blame after the barn has burned down and the horse has run off is just pointless. It has more to do with desiring vindication than remedy. If my spouse left me for another service member, throwing the other woman out of the Army (after what probably would amount to over a year of proceedings and having my own personal life aired for the entire unit's entertainment) wouldn't do a gosh darn bit of good.

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Nov 29 at 2014 10:24 PM

SGT Mark Sullivan — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 22:24:26 -0500

It is covered under UCMJ, it is rarely enforced. Out of my 11 years I think I saw it enforced once, and that was by a dependent, her husband was having an affair with another soldier. But, when it comes to another soldier having illicit contact with another soldiers spouse, they need to make it easier for the offended soldier to have recourse, better access to letting the command know what is happening, and try and handle this issue through channels. I know back in my day, it was near impossible, I am unsure about it now. Unfortunately, the military is a direct reflection of society, and all kinds of people cheat, or disrespect the one they marry, spouses do this as well as soldiers. Some spouses will only marry the service-member for the allotment. Hell, the first Gulf War, they made it a rule on Ft Campbell, you could not use a red light as your porch light, because so many spouses were using that as a beacon to their would be boyfriends. But, honestly it should be enforced internally, one soldier should not prey upon another soldiers family.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2014 10:56 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 22:56:45 -0500

Well....I will say from my perspective that since we are an institution built on upholding values, then if a person is proven to have committed adultery, then by all means get rid of them. They themselves have no honor, integrity, personal courage and most definitely no loyalty. Again personally, I can't trust someone if I know they have fooled around.

Response by 1LT David Moeglein made Nov 29 at 2014 11:02 PM

1LT David Moeglein — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 23:02:28 -0500

Should service members that commit adultery be processed for discharge and be given an OTH?

I'd say only if it causing problems with unit cohesion and mission focus.

What I'd rather see are resources for couples that help them build strong relationships and demystify what it is that they need to be happily married. Getting married is like joining the military. Could anyone really tell you what was involved before you took your vows or swore your oath? My hat is off to anyone that makes this commitment. It's really easy for me to be critical of what I see wrong in the lives of others. What takes more courage is providing an example, mentorship and leadership.

I recommend some really great books that take the guess work out of marriage.

1. The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts by Gary D Chapman.
2. Love & Respect: The Love She Most Desires; The Respect He Desperately Needs
by Emerson Eggerichs
3. The DNA of Relationships by Gary Smalley

Truth in advertising, these books are written from a Christian perspective. However, if you truly want a better marriage, this will not matter. My Jewish wife reread these books after I read them the first time. As we say in AA, "Take what you want and leave the rest."

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Nov 29 at 2014 11:51 PM

CMSgt James Nolan — Sat, 29 Nov 2014 23:51:57 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member No. I do not think you should be put out, Unless it is in there affecting the unit mission. Is it bad? Yes, that is why there is a UCMJ charge. Often infidelity takes care of itself through divorce or violence (not condoning violence, but let us face it if you sneak into a soldier's/marine/sailor/airman/coastie bed and he/she finds out, there may be trouble). And that is trouble that you should have foreseen.

If someone is abusing their position of rank/authority to get sex, that is tantamount to rape and is a wholly separate issue.

Yes, the military should try and help the troops work on better marriages. I can speak for the Air Guard, we do voluntary retreats at least once per year. Are they helpful? Yes, Do they get great turnout? No. Would they be better if mandatory? Absolutely not.

For marriage to work, both parties must want it to work. Bottom line though is that people are going to cheat and do stupid things. Not everyone will cheat, nor will everyone be stupid. When it comes to marital issues, remember that we have no real idea what is happening behind closed doors.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 1:27 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Nov 2014 01:27:31 -0500

I've dealt with this situation before and I agree with you that adultery is indeed difficult to prove, unless it's just blatantly advertised for all to see. It's unfortunate that this happens as it disrupts the good order and discipline many of us work so hard to preserve for the military. Should there ever be a case where adultery/cheating affects the SM's job/duty/performance/unit/etc then I feel appropriate measures should be taken to alleviate that tension.

With the SMA's stance on downsizing, many of our leaders being considered for QMP due to past adverse action/misconduct on their OERs/NCOERs, I am sure adultery (being punishable under the UCMJ) will only serve to help expedite that person much more quickly out the doors. As for the type of discharge they receive....I am certain that will depend entirely upon their Chain of Command.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Nov 30 at 2014 4:47 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Sun, 30 Nov 2014 04:47:24 -0500

Pursuing charges for adultery is not worth it unless there are pictures or video and accusing others of it opens oneself for slander and/or being punished for making false statements.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 10:36 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Nov 2014 10:36:56 -0500

Yes. Dishonorable Discharge. Why have UCMJ articles that aren't enforced? Either enforce the article or get rid of it.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Nov 30 at 2014 1:03 PM

SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS — Sun, 30 Nov 2014 13:03:19 -0500

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member , No. With an exception. If the adultery effects good order and discipline (ie having an affair with another Service members spouse or girlfriend) then yes. If it is completely "off post" then no.

I would suggest having the chain of command order counseling with clergy, social worker, mental health professional, marriage counselor, or psychologist and if practical couples counseling. Keep families together.

I would add, if disclosed the Command should lawfully order the Service member to correct the issue and if they do not then they can take action for failing to follow a lawful order and the adultery. As a former CID Special Agent, we were called often about Adultery charges but as an organization when I was an Agent we did not investigate them. It was a Commander's inquiry or a 15-6 investigation.

Response by SGT Karen Scott made Nov 30 at 2014 1:51 PM

SGT Karen Scott — Sun, 30 Nov 2014 13:51:49 -0500

No they should prosecute the rapist that rape the women and men. In the past if the serial rapist raped anyone they prosecuted the person that it attacked, because it the serial rapist was married. For more than 30 years men and women have been attacked violently by our own in our Armed Forces it has not been taken seriously nor most of the time the rapist are held accountable, however the person attacked & reported the crime is retaliated and harmed more. It is sick, evil and demented to charge the person that was attacked by a rapist violently for adultery. Those commanders military legal persons that is involved in doing such atrocities should be charged as well right along with the violent rapist. We have had in the past too many soldiers that has reported rape and attacks that were charge with adultery. Outwardly this shows how much of violently sex offenders that those all involved that were a part in hurting any soldier this way. Covering up the criminal, but using a religious excuse to charge the victim that was hurt. Those commanders and all involved that orchestrated any harm to get back for reporting rape, crimes and gross wrongdoings should be charged and held accountable as well and the victims helped. It should not be any of anyone's business who someone else is having sex with unless it is a violent attack, rape and sexual assault. During the time of 1985 - 1992 men that lied about being married the other person should not be charged, but paid financially for restitution this will stop that real quick. The men lie they have charged the other person, but when the men do they are not charged. You cannot charged someone for something someone else did. The person that was tricked they should be help legally to go after the person that lied for damages. Go after the other signification other due to the man that lied to trick the other person. But this sick evil actions going after the person that was raped, just because the serial rapist was married any and all do not have the right to serve in any position. This is extreme violence towards women and or towards the person that was raped. The retaliation that is going on in the Military and out orchestrated harm to hurt those that report rape, attacks and gross wrongs that destroyed a person life with irreversible conditions. All involved should be charged and held accountable. The gross gang like, cliquish individuals that are abusing their power, and good old boy corruption must be corrected stopped and held accountable. Slavery is against the law and those that wants power trips to force controlling a human being to force them to only stay with them and thinks that they have the only say so on a particular human being is wrong and it must be stopped. If couples go out on each other it is none of our business!!! Rape, violent harms, retaliation, orchestrating harm to get back at someone to harm them sabotaging career, life and health forever by violent means is our business and anyone in our Armed Forces abusing laws to hurt others while for decades they have not held rapist accountable they need to be held accountable and let go. The Armed Forces thinks they have a right to get into another bed that is consensual sex, but will go above and beyond to cover up a rapist. That is sick!!! Some female or male getting mad because their spouse is leaving them, well there must be a reason this is only vindictiveness. Church and State or supposed to be separated. Stop charging those that have been raped by married serial rapist for adultery and allowing the rapist go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get rid of the adultery. Help those that have been harmed by violent attacks instead of ganging up on them and acting corrupt.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 4:30 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Nov 2014 16:30:52 -0500

I was sitting in the back of a Humvee one day when I heard a seasoned NCO that was the TC telling soldiers sitting in the back that it was ok to cheat on their wives. But it was funny to hear the same individual saying that if his wife cheats, he will bring wreck havoc upon her. This man was the most decorated and the most admired NCO of our unit when I was there. Many people knew about him, but nobody dared to address him about the matter. And many married soldiers followed his footsteps and defiled their marital beds.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2014 7:10 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 30 Nov 2014 19:10:42 -0500

YES, period.

Response by PO1 Rick Serviss made Nov 30 at 2014 7:25 PM

PO1 Rick Serviss — Sun, 30 Nov 2014 19:25:17 -0500

I think adulty becomes more of an issue when there is fraternization as well. You don't hardly hear about it otherwise.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 2:13 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 02:13:35 -0500

I think the rule should be abolished. The reason is I have seen soldiers, NCO's and Officers who brag about cheating on their spouse to their subordinates , but the their superiors know about it and nothing happen. Don't get me wrong I think it is wrong especially when I heard other SM do it to other SM, but overall I can count on one had on how many times someone had gotten in trouble for adultery in the military. The one that did were officers and all they got was a fine and retired at a lower rank. I can't stop another man or woman from cheating on their husband or spouse so why try. I guess I may have a civilian mind on this, but as long as that person can lead, motive and influence me to be a leader or a better soldier then I don't care what they do in their personal or sex life.

We can talk about Gen Sinclair and Gen. Petraues all we want but we fail to forget that before they got caught having an affair everyone thought they were great leaders. How did one mistake or poor judgment put all what they did out the window? BTW, all the men who talk about Gen Petraues cheating on your wife ask yourself this question. If you was a 60 year old man who had a very attractive woman coming on to you would you turn her down? I know we all have self discipline and self control but I promise most of the SM in the military would not especially, if no one was looking. So, I think we need to be more honest with ourselves before we point the finger.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 1 at 2014 9:21 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 09:21:35 -0500

Anyone that commits Adultry should have their genitials cauterized. At the very least a less than honorable.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Dec 1 at 2014 10:14 AM

SSG Tim Everett — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 10:14:37 -0500

I've seen it selectively applied. Usually to junior enlisted or junior NCOs. I'd rather see it applied fairly across all ranks, or done away with altogether. Standards exist for a reason. A colonel or a general getting a slap on the wrist just because of their seniority and leadership value, or the government investment in their career, is ridiculous.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Dec 2 at 2014 8:46 AM

Cpl Christopher Bishop — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 08:46:17 -0500

I would have to offer the "Keep It Simple, Stupid (KISS) response.

If you still need to mess around, don't get married.

A cheating partner SHOULD be divorced from, and left nothing. They got what they got when they ran out and got it. If they got pregnant or caught Herpes by doing so...its now their problem (and Karma?).

If there are children involved, the child support dollars should never go to the custodial parent so they can go run around some more and spend most of it on themselves. Instead, the money should go to directly pay for the materials/services needed.

Adultery should mean "Conduct Unbecoming" of a military member (doesn't have to be an Officer). I'm going to take a stab at qualifying this. When you joined you took an Oath. When you got Married, you also took an Oath. If you cause the breaking of either one, then your word means shit, thus putting into question the value of any other Oaths you've ever taken.

I think it should be punitive, but not a discharge. Id say this newly single service-member is even more "deployable". If we're talking about the service-member being guilty of Adultery...ship them away from the about-to-be-divorced spouse.

Now...when you say that the civilian cheaters don't get punished...well...that's pretty much correct. The wife of the deployable having other men over is just sickening to me and it adds to the argument they were only interested in the wedding for the military's benefits. So I don't see why the husband should have to pay for her crap. For those cases where its a Male civilian cheating while his military wife is deployed, same rules should apply.

I substituted the word Deployable for Serving, just because that's often when it happens...when they think their coasts are clear.

Though I do have to throw in something. If Marriage is "...until death do we part, remain in sickness and in health..." then when one cheats...I suspect some might argue that this falls under the "...in sickness..." bit. Cheating is a huge ball of (lacking self control), (maximum disrespect), (my wedding vow meant Jack Shit to me), etc. But I'm not sure Divorce is always the best thing for all parties involved or affected. That however doesn't mean a cheater should just be able to "play along" with counseling merely to avoid an Adultery charge.

Response by SSG Brian Fernandez made Dec 2 at 2014 12:36 PM

SSG Brian Fernandez — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 12:36:41 -0500

I would believe there needs to be evidence of proof of adultery. I recall the civilian side of the world that entails a bit more than "they were seen kissing".

Response by Capt Mario Mangiameli made Dec 2 at 2014 5:18 PM

Capt Mario Mangiameli — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 17:18:55 -0500

No the military shouldn't. I think it is an old rule and (generally speaking) has no place in the military.