Should Soldiers be punished for failing the EIB PT test on purpose?

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 01:42:42 -0400

Response by MSG Andrew White made Aug 11 at 2017 1:47 AM

MSG Andrew White — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 01:47:07 -0400

NO!! IT'S ONLY FOR THE FEW WHO WANT TO ENDURE THIS PROCESS!!!

Response by PFC Lisa McDonald made Aug 11 at 2017 2:00 AM

PFC Lisa McDonald — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 02:00:30 -0400

What comprises the eib pt test and what are the standards.
I tested for the eib over thirty years ago. I vaguely remember I failed to receive it because of some question you answered out of the book but somehow failed anyway

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Aug 11 at 2017 2:09 AM

SGT Joseph Gunderson — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 02:09:13 -0400

How are you going to punish someone for something that could really be considered extra curricular? Now, if this was something from a NCO school or something of that nature that is required for development, then of course, but WIN is not a requirement of the MOS and if someone is just so lazy that they don't want to try for the badge, then yo hell with them. Let their career suffer.

Response by LTC Kevin B. made Aug 11 at 2017 5:17 AM

LTC Kevin B. — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 05:17:34 -0400

I think so, if it's a blatant and obvious attempt to fail. The big issue is deciding what type of punishment is legal and appropriate.

When I was a young Lieutenant, I had something similar happen with a handful of my soldiers. They purposely failed out of the EFMB on their very first task so that they could come back home from the testing site. I made them stay out in the field until the end of the week anyways, making them support their colleagues who did actually try to pass everything. Apparently, the testing site saw it as a problem on a larger scale. The following year (and every year after), they didn't tell anyone how they did until the very last day, right before the final road march. Their goal was to make people at least try, considering that they had to stay out there regardless of how they did.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 7:24 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 07:24:08 -0400

Not a soldier, but I say if they fail any PT test, they should be punished. We all have a standard to enforce (yep, even the Army, I suppose). For Marines, you're looked down on if you do anything short of a first class PFT, and some schools, like Marine Security Guard school and Sergeants Course require it. To get lower than first class at these schools as a Sgt or higher will usually earn you an adverse FitRep, which is most likely career-ending these days. Fail it altogether, and you'll not only get negative paperwork, but also get put on RCP to get you in shape and will be ineligible for promotion until you get off the program, no matter what rank you are.

Response by MSG Loren Tomblin made Aug 11 at 2017 7:45 AM

MSG Loren Tomblin — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 07:45:57 -0400

Yes. I received mine back in 1962 as an E-4. A promotion came with it. If someone in my Battle Groups purposely failed I would have kicked his butt given the opportunity.

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Aug 11 at 2017 7:54 AM

SGM Matthew Quick — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 07:54:19 -0400

Anyone should be punished for failing any required/career enhancing test on purpose--degree of punishment will depend.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made Aug 11 at 2017 7:59 AM

CPT Mark Gonzalez — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 07:59:29 -0400

Absolutely. It is called quitting and is against our Values and creed. They need training to bring themselves to standard. Whether that be physical standards or understanding that you do not quit. The concept of allowing it breeds mediocrity, and when you need your men to truly endure something shitty, a foundation that allows quitting during training is not helping.

Response by SGT David T. made Aug 11 at 2017 8:17 AM

SGT David T. — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 08:17:56 -0400

No. They don't get the badge, simple as that. On the times I have done EIB, the units always stated that the training was mandatory but the testing was not. Maybe your unit shouldn't force them to test. That way only those who want the badge will compete and you wont have to deal with this again. Just a thought.

Response by SSG Robert Webster made Aug 11 at 2017 8:47 AM

SSG Robert Webster — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 08:47:03 -0400

SFC Griffis - You should have told this information up front when posting your question - "I agree it's only for the few but last time we did EIB over 300 failed the pt test. Most stopped before 2 min were up."

Your statement indicates that the unit whether it is at the battalion level, brigade, or even division, there is a major leadership problem. This is something that needs to be addressed in a completely different manner than just punishing the troops or remedial training.
Another thing that would also help in giving advice on this - Is this unit getting ready to deploy, or did it just come back from a deployment?
These soldiers that failed, are they also holders of the CIB? If they are, this can also be a sign of poor or incompetent leadership, especially if it is an active duty unit (which I am presuming that it is).
Either way it appears that there is a lot of work for both the soldiers and the leaders (both NCO and Officer) in this unit whether it is a battalion, brigade, or division. I know one thing, the CSM's have a lot of work ahead of them.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Aug 11 at 2017 9:06 AM

SSG Richard Reilly — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 09:06:23 -0400

Not punished but if it was a record they should be flagged which may adversely effect them.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Aug 11 at 2017 9:30 AM

SPC Erich Guenther — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 09:30:23 -0400

Well first, lets keep in mind the EIB is a VOLUNTARY competition. No where is it required and when I was in I thought it was the height of stupidity of military units to try and make it mandatory by insisting it was regular training. Second, I would find out why the individual or group of soldiers is rejecting the competition. To me that is a morale problem not a respect issue as most Soldiers should strive for the EIB. In regards to failing the PT Test, your unit should state that every PT test given is a PT Test for record..........that's what I would do there, if it is possible.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Aug 11 at 2017 9:35 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 09:35:17 -0400

It is common for all assigned to participate in the EIB APFT (in fact I can not remember a EIB APFT that was not done as so), if for no other reason its an efficient use of resources to conduct a AR350-1 requirement. As such, failure wither on purpose or of no intention takes care of itself.
Fail an APFT, get flagged, suspend favorable actions from awards to schooling to promotions, placed in special populations PT program, initiate separation of service chapter, counsel and inform of the time line and training program the SM will have to improve and pass the APFT. If the failure was perceived to be unintentional provide maximum assistance in helping the SM achieve their stated goal. If understood to be a intentional failure, provide the assistance and leadership required and or requested, but inform the SM their passing or failing and prep for either is a test in of itself...
I would then direct the LONGEST time allowed under the reg before allowing a retest.. If they pass, fine, perhaps a lesson is learned..if they fail again, so be it, good by.

EDIT ADD: Oh, and that above is not theory ...its a memory.

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made Aug 11 at 2017 9:48 AM

SPC Casey Ashfield — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 09:48:58 -0400

No. My last unit forced everyone to take the EIB test. And I was 3 months away from ETS. It served no purpose to make everyone in the unit take the test when almost half of us were getting out. Nobody got the EIB in that unit because so many people failed or intentionally failed, even those that passed weren't awarded the EIB.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 9:54 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 09:54:19 -0400

I'm not sure what level of punishment should be utilized but I think it would be warranted anytime a soldier fails a task on purpose. Whether it be a PT test or land nav. We're looking for 100% effort all the time. That doesn't mean you pass 100% of the time. It means you try to pass 100% of the time. It's the same thing I tell my kids. If the best grade you can get in math is a D then that's fine. But if you make a D because you didn't try, and you could've made a B, we have a problem.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Aug 11 at 2017 10:34 AM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 10:34:22 -0400

I always though the punishment was to take the EIB test and training every year regardless if you had your EIB already :) If a troop purposely failed his EIB testing I would have him continue on and constantly take the training to assist him in earning his EIB only a fool or and outright idiot fails it on purpose. The EIB is the pinnacle for a peacetime Infantryman and all line dogs should do their best to earn it or seek another MOS.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Aug 11 at 2017 10:40 AM

CSM Richard StCyr — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 10:40:24 -0400

I can't imagine failing anything on purpose, but I'd request a flag on the individual since it's an APFT. When I was stationed in Germany we were invited to participate in the 1/ 16th Infantry's EIB training and testing since we were DS support to them. As Engineers we were not authorized to receive the EIB but the training and testing was time well spent and we were better Soldiers for the experience. As I remember it the testing was very strict and only a few Infantrymen received the badge. I can't imagine someone not wanting to do their best on a badge that represents excellence in their field.

My uncles Richard and Gramp were WWII infantrymen and held both the EIB and CIB, I remember they were very proud of their EIBs even though it wasn't as fancy as their CIB. As Dick said "There's thousands of WWII Infantrymen with CIB'S...Ain't near so many with that." In my little squirrel mind that meant/ means it's a value added badge.

Response by Maj John Bell made Aug 11 at 2017 12:18 PM

Maj John Bell — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 12:18:53 -0400

OK... Forgive me, Marine here, I don't understand all the gee-gaws and doodads. Just makes the uniform harder to square away for inspection.

I don't completely understand the purpose of the Expert Infantry Badge (EIB). If my online search is correct, the EIB) is a "consolation" badge for those infantrymen that haven't qualified for the Combat Infantry Badge(CIB). You cannot wear both, so it doesn't get you one more charm for the charm bracelet. Lack of an EIB doesn't disqualify a soldier from earning a CIB, or for that matter, deployment or combat assignment.

It appears to me that successful completion of the EIB stations is fundamental to the MOS. The ability to complete the test should be a given, not a reason for another doodad. As an infantry leader, I'd have mandatory after hours and weekend remedial training set up for any infantryman that failed the EIB stations, not as punishment; but to make sure the soldier is equipped with baseline skills for the battlefield.

What is the "downside of earning the EIB; that motivates some soldiers to purposely fail the test?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 2:10 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 14:10:23 -0400

SFC, in my opinion if they fail the PT test they should be punished accordingly. But if they pass without meeting the EIB requirements there really isn't much you can do about that.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 2:52 PM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 14:52:59 -0400

Okay, I'll have to be the one to go there.

Prove it. PROVE they failed on purpose. Get the witness statements that say the SM planned to fail. Get the witness statements that say he bragged about it afterward. THEN you have your ammo.

Right off the bat, it's a PT test for record, and they failed - which means they get flagged.

Then get in the UCMJ and read the entry under "Malingering," and come back here and explain to us how and why an E-7 - a Sergeant FIRST CLASS - had to ask this question in the first place. Then you might want to read up on administrative reductions for inability or unwillingness to perform the duties of the assigned rank.

Response by SPC Anthony Schepis made Aug 11 at 2017 5:37 PM

SPC Anthony Schepis — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 17:37:03 -0400

How do you prove that someone failed on purpose?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2017 8:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 20:13:31 -0400

Why stop there? How many people get sent to Ranger School and "fail" the swim test? Before anyone says that Ranger School is a all volunteer course, I feel the need to say that for many young officers fresh out of IOBC Ranger School is not so voluntary. Like the standards for the APFT for EIB, the swim test at Ranger School exceeds basic Army standards and failure does not currently violate any standard that will get you chaptered. That said, deliberate failures should be given GOMARs. The problem you get into though is the burden of proof that the failure really was intentional.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Aug 11 at 2017 10:08 PM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 22:08:52 -0400

absolutely - it was deliberately done.

Response by SGT Chester Beedle made Aug 11 at 2017 11:39 PM

SGT Chester Beedle — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 23:39:52 -0400

It used to be that you could just say no, you didn't want to test for it. Then get stuck doing all the stupid details that needed to be done while the rest of the company was training and testing. All of the grass that needed mowing, all of the sweeping, mopping, cleaning, painting, etc.

Response by SSG William Bowen made Aug 11 at 2017 11:49 PM

SSG William Bowen — Fri, 11 Aug 2017 23:49:52 -0400

I have seen a lot of remarks on failing an APFT but this is about failing the EIB PT Test which requires 80 points or more in each event. Literally, someone could get a 279 on the PT test and fail for EIB. 100 points for PU, 100 for SU, and 79 on the run. Now if they are failing Army standards, then some sort of action could be taken but not a lot you can do if someone gets a 279...that's a good score.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2017 12:02 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Aug 2017 12:02:47 -0400

If they fail it theyre dumb, just get a 60-79 in one event lol

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2017 11:20 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Aug 2017 23:20:22 -0400

No, proper counseling should be done to reflect how their actions can affect their careers. If troops want to do things the results have a higher return in success.

Response by SSG John Braun made Aug 12 at 2017 11:42 PM

SSG John Braun — Sat, 12 Aug 2017 23:42:22 -0400

Great God in Heaven. Am I glad that I Retired. Holy Grief.

Response by SSG John Braun made Aug 12 at 2017 11:51 PM

SSG John Braun — Sat, 12 Aug 2017 23:51:01 -0400

Man something's never change.

Response by SSG James Dennis made Aug 13 at 2017 12:13 PM

SSG James Dennis — Sun, 13 Aug 2017 12:13:54 -0400

Hmmm, failing the PT test on purpose??? That sounds like a leadership/morale problem. Of course, today's Army is nothing like it was when I was in-everyone excelled whenever possible.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2017 1:04 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Aug 2017 13:04:17 -0400

SFC Griffis, you posed a very interesting question. We are in an all "volunteer Army" meaning that everyone freely enlisted knowing well in advance that they were giving up their "individualism" in order to embrace the Army Team concept. With that said, When I was a young 2LT, our BN held the EIB testing for everyone within the BN, those who choose not to participate, provided support to the event. Everything went well. However, most soldiers now days, have a sense of entitlement, and believe they can question everything, and if order to something, they purposely fail, or injured themselves to get out it. It is unfortunate that current policies in place do not allow for harsher punishment for soldiers who do this or try and take advantage of the system. So, to answer you question, if a soldier purposely fail the EIB PT test, the soldier should certainly receive be punish. Perhaps remedial PT training... or other additional duties. Soldiers in the rank of E4 and below should view this event as a great opportunity to showcase their individual knowledge and military expertise, earning the EIB badge, is a matter of pride and tells everyone that you know your s***t. NCO's without the EIB badge, should strive to earn it...I also believe that those who do participate and earn their EIB should be rewarded with a 4 day pass.

Response by SPC Brian Key made Aug 13 at 2017 4:38 PM

SPC Brian Key — Sun, 13 Aug 2017 16:38:49 -0400

So you're not proficient in your job without your EIB? See I disagree I seem to be pretty proficient in my job when I received my CIB down range, now I am not knocking the EIB by any means it's absolutely tough to get, I just think it shows that you can complete certain task in a timely manner. I've known many great leaders without an EIB. Just my opinion

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Aug 13 at 2017 7:16 PM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Sun, 13 Aug 2017 19:16:14 -0400

Any soldier who fails anything on purpose should be punished.

Response by TSgt Charles Larkins made Aug 13 at 2017 9:11 PM

TSgt Charles Larkins — Sun, 13 Aug 2017 21:11:44 -0400

Yes

Response by SFC Randy Hensley made Aug 13 at 2017 9:46 PM

SFC Randy Hensley — Sun, 13 Aug 2017 21:46:28 -0400

Any soldier failing anything on purpose should be punished. The EIB should be sought after by all grunts in peacetime. On another note it's difficult for soldiers who have the CIB to really grasp the need for a EIB because they understand it cannot be worn once it's awarded and leadership needs to impress the importance of the training and what it does for promotions at the DA level showing that he has continued to advance in the Infantry.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2017 10:02 PM

PV2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Aug 2017 22:02:19 -0400

I think that if you have a team leader worth his salt, he'll know if you failed on purpose, and will smoke the hell out of you. Mine definitely would.
Any soldier who accepts the mediocre as the norm will be exposed and punished if they have proper leadership. No reason for ucmj or any such thing when your nco can work you half to death in an afternoon. If you have half a brain you'll learn your lesson.

Response by SGT Shawn Mendoza made Aug 14 at 2017 4:36 PM

SGT Shawn Mendoza — Mon, 14 Aug 2017 16:36:56 -0400

Nope. I had my cib before i had to train gir eib. After i had my CIB it proved i knew my job when it mattered. So i didn't give a shit about EIB. I did all the pre-qualifications easy peasy and would then throw a granade short or far, camo up really good except some obvious spot. Lol.

Response by CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) made Aug 14 at 2017 5:29 PM

CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) — Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:29:19 -0400

I spent four years in the infantry (79 - 83) on active duty - I have no recollection of EIB testing ever being voluntary. Everyone had to do it. If you were on leave or something you did the makeup test. Anyone who failed it, at any point, still had to go through every station and event to complete the testing. If you were an overall failure at the end (less than 80% I believe) - you did it over again. ALL of it. If the CoC believed you intentionally failed it, you would get extra duty at a MINIMUM. Why would anyone intentionally fail EIB testing (or just the 12 mile ruck march)? You'd have to do it all again (retest) AND get extra duty.

Those redoing the 12 mile ruck march would have several of the biggest E6 or E7's in the BN "prompting" you on. I don't recall anyone ever intentionally failing it - the stragglers were given motivation to speed up. God help you if they thought you intentionally failed - you could expect to do it again (and again), get extra duty and do additional PT in the evenings for a month - at a minimum. Until you passed it. Anyway, to get an EIB you had to pass the testing on the first go round - those in the make up group (first time failures) were ineligible.

Have times changed?

Response by SGT John Price made Aug 15 at 2017 9:46 AM

SGT John Price — Tue, 15 Aug 2017 09:46:20 -0400

Absolutely. I believe however this is a first line supervisor/leadership failure. Rather than documenting it and counseling the soldier this should be an old fashioned smoke session that lasts the duration of the EIB. This could be done in the guise of aiding the counselors by continuously running them water, providing umbrella shade, etc. This allows the team leaders to get creative and bolster their soldiers morale for the next EIB.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2017 6:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Aug 2017 18:32:44 -0400

YES, just like schools (DS, NCOES or MOS) even know they are not for record. I knew many who failed because they just wanted out....
When my unit went thru EIB back in 1979 Germany 1st 7th INF there were over 500 Soldiers. The APFT, Weapons Qualification and Road March weeded out over half and the second half was weeded out the first day of competition. In the end only 6 Soldiers got the EIB. I was one of them as a E2

Response by SPC Angel Lopez made Aug 16 at 2017 12:26 PM

SPC Angel Lopez — Wed, 16 Aug 2017 12:26:33 -0400

No, a lot of people that I know who went thru the eib process were forced by their command

Response by CPL Ralph Moschler made Aug 17 at 2017 6:12 PM

CPL Ralph Moschler — Thu, 17 Aug 2017 18:12:00 -0400

Why would you want to fell it , I am a old grunt , but please tell me why , always do your best

Response by SFC Larry DeFord made Aug 17 at 2017 11:36 PM

SFC Larry DeFord — Thu, 17 Aug 2017 23:36:32 -0400

Yes, because it displays a lack of discipline and apathy.

Response by SPC Martin Meyer made Aug 19 at 2017 11:47 PM

SPC Martin Meyer — Sat, 19 Aug 2017 23:47:35 -0400

I never cared about the EIB. I was a Veitnam era Veteran and wanted the CIM badge more than anything.

Response by MSG Pat Colby made Aug 24 at 2017 1:54 PM

MSG Pat Colby — Thu, 24 Aug 2017 13:54:32 -0400

Pretty sure that the APFT standards to achieve the EIB is 70 points in each event. To Pass a regular APFT a Soldier must get 60 points. As long as the Soldier got 60 points, there legally can be no Flag. The IG would eat your ass up if you tried to Flag.

On a related note, Being 6'4" I have always had issues with Push-ups. If I managed to get 90 points on them, then the Sit-ups and run were an easy 100 points. If I didn't get 90, then I would aim for 80 points in the other two events. I honestly didn't care what anyone thought.

Response by SPC Christopher Combs made Aug 24 at 2017 1:57 PM

SPC Christopher Combs — Thu, 24 Aug 2017 13:57:04 -0400

I remember when I was stationed at 1-4 Inf we had a decent amount of people who failed the EIB pt test thinking they would get to do other things while the participates trained for it. Well the BC at the time said everyone would be doing the training and testing regardless of pt failure or not as it would help the battalion as a whole. So next day pt failures retake test and nearly all failures passed.

Response by PO3 David Davis made Aug 24 at 2017 2:33 PM

PO3 David Davis — Thu, 24 Aug 2017 14:33:42 -0400

Make them do it untill they pass. Hold back rank.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Aug 24 at 2017 3:17 PM

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Thu, 24 Aug 2017 15:17:03 -0400

I was doing a practice PT tst when I was with 1st ID, I was a CW2 and was next to a SSG. We were doing push ups and the SSG stops at 38, I finish mine and we go to situp, he does 30 some and gets up, I asked him what he was doing. He said it was a practice so he was doing the minimum. I went off! Told him he was not being a good example to his troops and ifg he wanted to act like a private, I would be happy to talk to the LTC to see if we can make it happen. I was in the Infantry for 14 years before going into counterintelligence. I was always taught to do you very best. Your troops look to you for guidance and will do as you do

Response by PFC Cedric Powell made Aug 24 at 2017 5:47 PM

PFC Cedric Powell — Thu, 24 Aug 2017 17:47:50 -0400

Willing failure is grounds for UCMJ under malingering

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2017 4:15 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 25 Aug 2017 16:15:05 -0400

anybody who purposefully fails a apft weather for a school or qualification or for anyother reason should be looked at and counselled or even processed out we don't need that type of person in the millitary

Response by SGT Mike Taylor made Aug 27 at 2017 8:54 PM

SGT Mike Taylor — Sun, 27 Aug 2017 20:54:02 -0400

EIB is a garrison award....as long as the kid has a legit CIB, not the free-eye-bee, let it ride. If he's ETS'ing shortly, only S3 SGM and CSM will care that much.

Never much cared for the EIB myself, it's an award that shows you can play by the book and demonstrates zero combat efficiency. Revamping the test so that you aren't smacking the buttstock of a rifle against the ground, rolling towards incoming bullets, and then seeking cover is a simple example of why it's a joke award. 20+ years of constant war should afford the garrison award to be adjusted a bit.

Aside from that...EIB doesn't mean shit. Doesn't raise VA ratings, looks good for shooter jobs, but combat experience counts tenfold more.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2017 5:09 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Aug 2017 05:09:19 -0400

So I've gathered from Para 1-10, USAIS 350-6 that testing for the EIB is supposed to be a voluntary event, except for any mandatory Pre-training at the unit level. I've also seen that the IEB APFT test standard is 80% in all event. Taking that into account, here is my straight POG opinion:

If the EIB APFT is a Record APFT, and the Soldier was forced to compete for the EIB, but still achieved the Army standard 60% in all events before self-terminating, then they should NOT receive UCMJ punishment. At most, they should be counseled on why they chose to self-terminate, to determine the root of the issue. In many cases, Soldiers are being forced to be there, and end up inadvertently (although it's their leader's fault) wasting the governments time and money, because units want maximum participation, versus maximum VOLUNTARY participation. This might actually help to reduce the amount of future self-terminations, by addressing the problem at its root, rather than punishing the Soldiers every chance possible; as there will be plenty of time for that over the next year or two before they ETS on their first term, resenting the Army.

It makes me think of all of my time in the 82nd Airborne; the many Officers and NCOs who were forced to go to White Slip testing, even though they had ZERO intention or desire to pursue Jumpmaster School (its not for everybody, and I respect those who pursue it). I saw MANY Paratroopers intentionally miss answers on the Nomenclature Test (even though they practically gave you the answers) or intentionally go slow to time-out on the Ruck Rigging.

Anytime Soldiers are forced to participate in an activity regulation clearly states is supposed to be voluntary (such as donating to XYZ charity, foundation, association, or anything OTHER than CFC), they will find ways to be defiant. Is it the Soldiers fault, or is it the fault of their leaders for putting those Soldiers in that situation in the first place? So how fair is it to force Soldiers into those activities, and then threaten them with punishment if they don't meet the Leaders' expectations (aka coercion)? Afterall, if the school(s) were REALLY that good/beneficial, they wouldn't be FORCING Soldiers to attend in the first place, as they would be making Soldiers jump through hoops to even get a slot...

Just my POG opinions though. You know us MI folk are soft.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2017 9:52 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 31 Aug 2017 21:52:35 -0400

Yes. Because they are just slacking. What is the point of joining at all if you aren't going to try and succeed? That's just a waste of time. I seen a few people do this recently at drum for their EIB.

Response by SGT Chris Oliver made Sep 10 at 2017 2:22 PM

SGT Chris Oliver — Sun, 10 Sep 2017 14:22:29 -0400

Hell yeah they should.

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Sep 13 at 2017 5:10 PM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Wed, 13 Sep 2017 17:10:25 -0400

I can't imagine failing anything on purpose.

Response by CPL Ralph Moschler made Oct 4 at 2017 5:57 PM

CPL Ralph Moschler — Wed, 04 Oct 2017 17:57:00 -0400

No after hours pt , no after hour s. Elb training

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2017 8:44 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 20:44:11 -0400

To play the devil's advocate no there shouldn't. It requires a volunteer statement to test. Units not letting people go home until there signed or just hazing joe's until they sign is a blatant indicator that they shouldn't even go to the test. It wastes the graders IE my time.

You can't force people to want to succeed.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2018 10:08 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Jun 2018 10:08:00 -0400

Hello everyone, let's separate the oranges (EIB Training) from the Apples (EIB Testing). A unit can make the work requirements such as Weapons Qualification, PT Test, etc. as part of the units overall training program to support meeting deployability requirements. So, if a unit is in its training cycle and weapons qualification and PT test are required during the time period, and the soldier fails on purpose...flag and appropriate actions. Now say that soldier passes the perquisites to participate in the EIB Testing process, he must Volunteer and have the Commanders Recommendation to move forward, and if there is an additional PT test required since the soldier volunteered to take the EIB Test, he is most likely not going to "purposely" fail. Now in the train up period (Oranges) and the soldier is told that this PT test is going to be used to support participation in the EIB Testing (Apples), the soldier can inform his chain of command that he will gladly participate in the training portion, however may not not participate in the testing phase. And, if the soldier is (Voluntold) that he will participate, he can still pass the PT test (so, no flagging actions), and just fail some of the EIB tasks. Which 70% of the soldiers will do anyway...Manage and lead your soldiers to what must be done, verses what they can volunteer for...in my time the EIB was a sincere show of an Infantryman's desire to be the best he can...no one ever failed anything on purpose.