Should soldiers be required to buff floors?

1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 01:35:42 -0400

So here we are, myself and a battle buddy (also a SSG), sitting on CQ. Yes that’s right two Staff Sergeants sitting on CQ, one of the pleasures of being an AIT instructor. For the sake of interpersonal professional development and a means of passing time, we opened a healthy dialogue of standards, or what we perceive to be standards. I am sure most of us are familiar with the days of stripping and waxing floors. So, the topic at hand was – is there really a purpose behind having soldiers do meaningless tasks such as stripping and waxing floors or picking weeds and flipping rocks? For the sake of argument, or playing devil’s advocate if you will, I say that those tasks bring soldiers together and forge long lasting bonds, as they did for me when I was coming up. My colleague argues that they serve no purpose and are quite literally obsolete. What is your take on it?

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Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 1:41 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 01:41:34 -0400

Yes. I see it as accomplishing a couple of things.

1. Duties and tasks like this help a soldier develop a sense of pride while honing their attention to detail.
2. These kinds of things have almost become a right of passage; often fondly talked about by older soldiers in their "I'm old school, back in the day" discussions.

Response by TSgt David Holman made May 3 at 2015 1:50 AM

TSgt David Holman — Sun, 03 May 2015 01:50:33 -0400

If the tasks are given as a way of bettering a facility or saving funds and is not at the expense of training, then by all means, they should stay. They give the troops a sense of ownership, and also encourage some attention to detail if they know their work is going to be scrutinized. The key is that it isn't impacting the mission/training.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 1:56 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 01:56:49 -0400

We did this back in AIT and it only gave us something to do while we were on CQ in the middle of the night so it would be easier to keep the floors clean while doing it. I feel like they should stay around just because as stated before it helps form bonds between fellow soldiers. It also gives you some knowledge so if you can't get a job with your specialty in the civilian world you can at least get a job buffing floors.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 2:06 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 02:06:08 -0400

I agree yes they should continue this because they will learn from mistakes and pay attention to detail. We've all done that one thing we didn't like or want to many of times praboly because either one we messed up or two we got voluntold. Just don't make it so stupid we question it as its happening. Remember be professional about it and creative.

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made May 3 at 2015 2:13 AM

SGT Anthony Rossi — Sun, 03 May 2015 02:13:33 -0400

If your to proud to buff a floor your to proud to lead!

He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: ...., -Luke 16:10

Response by SPC Charles Brown made May 3 at 2015 3:03 AM

SPC Charles Brown — Sun, 03 May 2015 03:03:52 -0400

Why shouldn't they. This is a long standing chore that has been passed on for generations, nothing says unit pride better than a well shined floor and boots to match. Seriously!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 3:04 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 03:04:38 -0400

Yes!!!!

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made May 3 at 2015 8:24 AM

Cpl Jeff N. — Sun, 03 May 2015 08:24:39 -0400

1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member. If they don't do it, who will? We always had to field day our barracks once a week, conduct police calls etc. Keeping your area squared away is like keeping yourself squared away. If your barracks, work areas etc start looking like crap, then so will you, your uniforms, your sense of discipline etc. It may seem like a hassle to do these things but they need to be done and who will do them of the troops don't? Are we going to higher cleaning services to do it?

Your colleague is trying to take the easy way out.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 10:05 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 10:05:12 -0400

It's just one of those things that needs to be done. Take pride in your area. Yeah it's boring and mundane but if you don't do it, who is? It's not like a random private is going to be like "I should really buff these floors sometime." Just don't be that guy to mix up the wax and the floor stripper or whatever that's called that eats the wax off the floor. It happened in WLC......

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 10:16 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 10:16:20 -0400

It teaches pride in yourself and surroundings, and discipline, much like pressing BDUs and polishing boots.

Response by SSgt Dan Montague made May 3 at 2015 11:39 AM

SSgt Dan Montague — Sun, 03 May 2015 11:39:14 -0400

Yes the lower ranks should pull weeds, paint rocks and field day the barracks. We use to also mow grass and rake dirt. Policing of the area and keeping our spaces clean should be our responsibility. Plus it is a good supervisor task for the jr NCO's.
Every month a unit was tasked with sending Marines to mess duty, area maintenance, BN S-4 and area guard.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made May 3 at 2015 11:53 AM

LTC Stephen C. — Sun, 03 May 2015 11:53:28 -0400

1LT(P) Private RallyPoint Member, while at Fort Bragg during the summer of 1970, some of us would end up on the Kennedy Hall floor detail. Basically, it was a floor cleaning and polishing detail that lasted most of the night. I survived it and am none the worse for wear!

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made May 3 at 2015 12:10 PM

SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. — Sun, 03 May 2015 12:10:48 -0400

I did it ..
Didn't kill me.

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made May 3 at 2015 12:28 PM

LTC Yinon Weiss — Sun, 03 May 2015 12:28:19 -0400

I would be in the minority and would say no. The Duke Basketball team is one hell of a team, but none of them needed to buff floors in order to build a team. Having Soldiers buff floors to learn team and life skills may be the best method used by some to date, but I would argue that there are better ways to build teams and teach attention to detail. Namely, things that directly relate to that soldier's MOS.

Doing things primarily because other people did it before you, is usually not the best justification in my view for why to do it. If you had never done this as a junior soldier, would this really be the best idea you would come with up today on how to train new soldiers? Probably not.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made May 3 at 2015 12:32 PM

LCpl Mark Lefler — Sun, 03 May 2015 12:32:48 -0400

I joke when one leaves the Marines, they are qualified as a janitor, gardener and call center rep.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made May 3 at 2015 3:10 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Sun, 03 May 2015 15:10:15 -0400

So how do you think is gets done aboard a Navy ship? All the cleaning skills are taught because they are needed in real life. That includes washing food ware, cleaning heads, showers, the deck, ... everything. You also get taught how to use a "deck crawler" and "needle gun" to strip paint and then repaint.

It also teaches you to be a better housekeeper, making fewer messes for someone else to clean up. We all spend our time doing these things. If you are good at doing them cheerfully, that will be recognized by others that matter.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 3:29 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 15:29:56 -0400

I buffed my fair share of floors and I'm still here to tell the tale. So why should todays soldiers lack the knowledge of how to run a buffer?

Response by PFC Zanie Young made May 3 at 2015 7:53 PM

PFC Zanie Young — Sun, 03 May 2015 19:53:23 -0400

Considering all the floors I have buffed, I can say this: It builds pride within our unit. Is it a requirement? I cannot not say, but us soldiers aren't slobs and we should not be slobs. True, we don't get medals or ribbons for that, but it doesn't mean we should not keep our quarters/ barracks squared away. We often had our building inspected and Lord help us if it wasn't even close to shining when the whole darn building wasn't spotless!

Response by Sgt Cody Dumont made May 3 at 2015 7:56 PM

Sgt Cody Dumont — Sun, 03 May 2015 19:56:39 -0400

Marines do it all the time, why shouldn't soldiers.

Response by PO1 John Miller made May 4 at 2015 1:20 AM

PO1 John Miller — Mon, 04 May 2015 01:20:49 -0400

Except for flipping rocks (do you they really make you do that?) I would say none of these tasks are meaningless. First and foremost is cleanliness. One thing we all have in common regardless of our branch is knowing the importance of cleanliness and an orderly appearance.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made May 4 at 2015 5:41 PM

SrA Edward Vong — Mon, 04 May 2015 17:41:57 -0400

It does not affect the mission, there for, I am against it. There are other ways to team build that is directly related to the career field.

Response by SGT Richard H. made May 4 at 2015 5:42 PM

SGT Richard H. — Mon, 04 May 2015 17:42:52 -0400

Sometimes its just about maintaining the building and the grounds efficiently isn't it? By efficiently, I mean not outsourcing and paying for work that can be accomplished using personnel that have some down time and are already being paid.

I have around 20 fence builders that work under me, and when the grass needs to be mowed, sometimes one of them becomes a landscaper. Most jobs are like that.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made May 4 at 2015 5:54 PM

LTC Bink Romanick — Mon, 04 May 2015 17:54:48 -0400

Of course they should buff floors, police butts and keep their barracks/living areas clean and well policed. It's what soldiers do.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2015 6:27 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 May 2015 18:27:28 -0400

What's the alternative? Shitty looking floors?

Response by SGT James Elphick made May 4 at 2015 6:33 PM

SGT James Elphick — Mon, 04 May 2015 18:33:34 -0400

I don't think that it should be done just because, in my experience that generally just caused discontent in the ranks rather than built a solid team. However, the floors have to be buffed and the grounds need to be kept and I can think of no one better to accomplish those tasks than privates (also people on extra duty). I agree with LTC Yinon Weiss doing MOS specific tasks and training is much better for team-building than menial chores.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made May 4 at 2015 6:35 PM

PO2 Skip Kirkwood — Mon, 04 May 2015 18:35:32 -0400

Those activities perform another useful function - they give soldiers (and sailors, airmen, and Marines) things to keep them busy. Having experienced both ends of this activity while on active duty, I appreciate the value of them now in the civilian world - where employees aren't asked to occupy their "down time" with make-work activities.

The result is, sit around, bitch, gossip, make up rumors, mind other peoples' business, etc.

What was it that one of my teachers once said? An idle mind is the devil's workshop? It is in fact true....so keeping people busy is not all bad.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made May 4 at 2015 6:38 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Mon, 04 May 2015 18:38:08 -0400

I love talking about all things military with my peers. There is nothing wrong with making your environment beautiful. Flipping actual rocks for busy work is a waste of time.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 4 at 2015 7:37 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Mon, 04 May 2015 19:37:54 -0400

What, this duty hasn't been contracted out yet?

Response by MSG Morgan Fiszel, CPCM, CFCM made May 4 at 2015 8:50 PM

MSG Morgan Fiszel, CPCM, CFCM — Mon, 04 May 2015 20:50:12 -0400

We aren't the Red Sox or Duke. Buffing floors builds character, discipline, passes time and gives you things that you don't need to play with Duke. It also provides you time to zone out, to think about things. You might think that some task is beneath you but it isn't. Soldiers need the discipline necessary to do what they are told, when they are told, how they are told, with zero hesitation, no matter what that task might be; otherwise, the next guy is going to say "do Soldiers really need to sit in a tower or man the gate". Anyone with an opposite point of view is entitled to have their opinion but chances are...they haven't been there and done that.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2015 8:57 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 May 2015 20:57:04 -0400

All of us, at one time or another,have had details we really didnt like. In my opinion, a detail brings responsibility to recruits who may have never had any responsibility. It helps them, on down the line, being promoted in rank, because of the responsibility imposed on them. They become good leaders and examples. I did a lot of KP and mopping and buffing floors. I didn't like it at first, but when I saw those shiney floors, I was proud of what I did. It didn't cause me any lingering problems, and was good for me.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2015 9:03 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 May 2015 21:03:23 -0400

While I didn't particularly enjoy KP or sweeping floors as a junior enlisted Soldier either, for me it's simple. These tasks need to be done, regardless of who it is. I think the question should really be: "Should we pay contractors to do menial work while we have junior enlisted Soldiers capable of doing it?" In a budget-constrained environment I can't see any reason why not. I'm not advocating busy work by any means, but arguing we're too good to wax a floor is silly.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2015 10:10 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 May 2015 22:10:03 -0400

I had this same discussion on the trail this summer. If you try to march a formation that's dragging their feet you'll understand one reason why buffing floors is important. Soldiers learn to pick up their feet when they walk and march.

While buffing floors doesn't do much in the way of sanitation, you always know the floors are clean if they are buffed to a high shine. If you've ever tried to buff a dirty floor you know it doesn't work.

Really though, the number of comments show that many of us still believe that it instills discipline, and forces attention to detail, while building relationships amongst peers. The same can be said for painting rocks, raking the sand, and all of those other tasks we thought were pointless as we made our way through the ranks.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2015 10:19 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 04 May 2015 22:19:22 -0400

The purpose behind buffing floors, area beautification and painting (as examples) is not team building. It also isn't slave driving. It is to create a foundation of ownership of unit resources and facilities. It teaches taking pride in how we represent ourselves and capstones on esprit de corps. To call these tasks useless is absurd, and to assume it is only a job for subordinates is also absurd. The idea of taking what the Army gives us (what the People give us) to do our job and making the best it can be is not mundane. It is theoretically no different than cleaning weapons and vehicles, and is equally important. I would argue that the fact many leaders consider these ideas to be a thing of the past is part of the generational plague that afflicts us now. Discipline and pride go hand in hand, and we should always work to improve our position. A little extra discipline to show that we take pride in what we do and who we are. Whether that is a foxhole or the barracks is no matter. I believe it is that little extra we demand from each other and those we lead that sets us apart from the Armies of the rest of the world.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2015 1:14 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 May 2015 13:14:13 -0400

I agree, the help forge teamwork. With budget constraints some of those tasks (at least in the air force) no longer get contracted out. I worked at our Center HQ building in the Command Staff and me and another SrA were asked to clean up the loading dock area of leaves because the 3Star was going to be parking at the back after a surgery. We did, and we also expanded our ops across the rear of the building removing weeds and other debris that had accrued, not solely because the Commander was parking back there but because we had recognized that the CE grounds crew wasn't able to maintain it and it was "OUR" building. One the retired Chief in our deployment cell commended us and emailed our leaders complimenting our proactive approach and the fact we cared about our building and its appearance to other senior leaders on our base that visit often.

Fast forward about 6 months we had a power outage and I had several new airmen that had nothing to do because the power was out and there was no access to the systems we worked with so I got with our Deployment team and got some work gloves and took the team out to clean up and remove some weeds. I was very surprised at the level of the "this is beneath us to do" mentality out of the group. Myself and the SrA that helped me last time explained that it is our building and we need it to look good and convey a clean appearance when we have other senior leaders come to meetings. The worst part was having another one of our SrA peers complaining and kind of leading the poor attitudes. I think the fact we were there pulling weeds and stuff helped the "morale" but it was still disappointing to hear these kids complain about pulling weeds because they just wanted to loaf and screw off.