Should soldiers be solely responsible for their own PT?

2016-08-27T20:41:11-04:00

Since being a soldier is a job and being physically fit is a part of that job, should we let soldier be in charge of their own PT? Since it's our job to be physically fit should soldiers just have free run on PT with no unit PT obligations? Or should unit PT still be a part of a soldier's PT schedule for unit cohesion purposes. Or should we have a guaranteed program for soldiers with high enough PT scores. Something in a regulation and not a commander's discretion policy?

Response by COL Sam Russell made Aug 27 at 2016 8:38 PM

2016-08-27T20:38:36-04:00

Once the Soldier has demonstrated to their chain of command, through various events like maxing the APFT, 12-mile ruck march under 3 hours, 5-mile run under 35:00, etc., then allow PT on own time except for higher command events like BN or BCT runs. APFT with unit to demonstrate continued fitness excellence.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2016 8:40 PM

2016-08-27T20:40:31-04:00

Lower level Leaders should be trusted to decide how often to do team or individual PT. Sometimes, meeting at a gym with options can be a good mix from PRT, especially in the morning. It would depend on the integrity of the Soldiers, Leaders, fitness standards (APFT, ruck, etc.), and many other factors. Note that the best way to improve any exercise is to do that exercise. Everything else is supplemental. What's your thoughts, SSG Private RallyPoint Member ?

Response by CW3 Matt Hutchason made Aug 27 at 2016 9:06 PM

2016-08-27T21:06:43-04:00

PT is absolutely essential in the conduct of war fighting. Most officers are left to conduct PT on their own, as they have showed discipline and dedication to get where they are. I was a lower enlisted member once, and I probably would have gaffed off PT when I was younger and more immature. Without unit PT, I, quite frankly, would have been unprepared for the rigors of combat. There's also the unit cohesion and espirit de corps built through unit PT. that is so valuable.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Aug 27 at 2016 9:23 PM

2016-08-27T21:23:07-04:00

Physical Fitness (Health) is an Individual Responsibility, however Unit Readiness which encompasses Physical Tasking is a Unit Responsibility. There is crossover.

Just because you are healthy (the purpose of the PFT), does not mean you will be useful to the tasking of your unit (a different requirement). In theory however, "if" you are trained to the unit tasking level you will be healthy enough to pass any test as presented. Unfortunately, because not all units perform the same missions (Operations, Administration, Logistics, etc), physical requirements vary wildly, therefore it requires a good mix between the two.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Aug 27 at 2016 9:25 PM

2016-08-27T21:25:00-04:00

SSG Private RallyPoint Member Responsiblity arrives with service. I understand SEAL Operators are responsible for their own physical readiness. Other than that, SF and Delta? Same elite class of SMs as the SEALs!

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Aug 27 at 2016 9:32 PM

2016-08-27T21:32:37-04:00

This has to be a commander's policy not a regulation. If units did not do PT, I would bet that the number of PT failures and Soldiers on the weight control program would go up. People will do what they like and for many, that does not include PT or at least certain forms of PT. I think that even some of those Soldiers that score high on the APFT would slack off too. What units need to do is make sure the PT is challenging and mission focused.

Response by SPC Matthew Woodson made Aug 27 at 2016 9:42 PM

2016-08-27T21:42:15-04:00

Unit PT and formation runs helps keep the unit together as a team. The more the unit trains together, the better they fight together.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2016 9:43 PM

2016-08-27T21:43:29-04:00

In a way, we are already running an experiment on this in the NG and AR. Everyone knows that 1 or 2 days of PT during battle drills are not gong to cut it. In addition to our full time jobs and school, we are already having to find a way to conduct our own PT during the rest of the month.

I don't know what the APFT failure percentage is for the part timers; I have heard as much as 30% across the board. I imagine this would become similar if PT on your own became the standard for full timers.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2016 10:30 PM

2016-08-27T22:30:32-04:00

When people choose to do PT on their own, they will end up choosing what they like best. One will crossfit, one will lift weights, one will run, and so forth. Even if everyone does PT on their own, which there will always be someone who doesn't, you will have no common level of fitness within your organization.

Response by SGT Pete Masullo made Aug 27 at 2016 11:20 PM

2016-08-27T23:20:02-04:00

Nope. PT isn't so much about the workout as much as working out together as a unit. If unit PT is done correctly, it can increase endurance and strength but it is also there to foster camaraderie, leadership and fighting spirit.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2016 1:26 AM

2016-08-28T01:26:31-04:00

Organized PT is not designed to get you in shape most times. Unless your MFT has a good program you need to do it on your own.

Response by SSgt Alan Cook made Aug 28 at 2016 1:37 AM

2016-08-28T01:37:37-04:00

no, the military is not a day to day job, it is the military, everyone in the military has to be a part of the military, not apart of their yoga class or what ever they like to do, we all have to be there together and suffer together, thats whats makes us bond together, to fight together and withstand the pain together, whats next, a safe room for the wimps?

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2016 2:37 AM

2016-08-28T02:37:40-04:00

The Navy, at least in the grand majority, expects Sailor's to be responsible for their own PT. However, I feel this is not the best way to be about it. Command PT does not only breed camaraderie, but it ensured Soldiers stay fit. No one likes getting up early and going to PT, especially when you have, at times, a very distinct difference between the strong and the weak. However, it keeps the group strong. The moment you let Soldiers take matters into their own hands, there will always be a few that are not responsible enough to stick with the program. I understand the argument about how those soldiers are not the product or quality we want in the military, but at the same time, this is exactly that - the military. Strict order, discipline and a regiment are what some Soldiers need. Again, I am going to fall back to the camaraderie aspect. What I wouldn't give for the Navy to adopt the Army's PT program. Schofield Barracks PTs every morning from what seems to be 0700-0900, and even as someone who maxes out PT scores, i'd like to PT with my subordinates, peers, and leadership.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Aug 28 at 2016 4:02 AM

2016-08-28T04:02:33-04:00

I say no. It's an ideal. Soldiers will do PT, study thier basic tasks, clean their room because they are Soldiers and its part of the job. I think we all know better.

Response by CW2 Michael Berthiaume made Aug 28 at 2016 7:09 AM

2016-08-28T07:09:01-04:00

Yes, Basically, in the Reserves / Guard, they are. Drill only happens one weekend a month and doing out on your own inspires people to do Fitness that is Exciting/Interesting to them, all while maintaining the Physical Fitness standards. Best Scores of my Career happened after I was able to conduct my own PT.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Aug 28 at 2016 10:24 AM

2016-08-28T10:24:55-04:00

If you subscribe to the "PT is just about physical conditioning" camp, then yes, by all means establish a standard, measurable, tangible and then segregated into two groups those that "qualify" to PT on thier own, those that continue the commander's program.

If you believe that first formation of the day and the activities that follow, the tasks it requires of the Soldier, the leader, the follower, the commander, the NCO, the Officer, the unit have much more to do in preparing a unit to fulfill thier wartime mission than just being physically fit.. than NO, PT on an individual level, responsibility is an horrible idea. Other than as a short time, temp incentive, reward kind of deal

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2016 1:35 PM

2016-08-28T13:35:19-04:00

I have developed two thoughts on this over the past 25 years.

1-Everything we do is about readiness. Our ability to execute the management of violence at time of crisis. If an organization's physical readiness program is not aligned with building, sustaining, and consuming readiness, is it really doing the right thing?

2-The issue over whether or not folks who perform at a certain level (ie, 270/above) should be exempted has always been intriguing. As a 2x time company commander and soon-to-be-Battalion Commander, I'm not really concerned with a metric such as 270/above with my subordinate leaders. I'm concerned about how they're enabling and developing their subordinates and their organization to attain the required physical readiness. If you are a leader and you score a 300, should you get a bye for organizational physical readiness training? Or, do you not have an inherent leader responsibility to get your team to the required level? "But I score a 300." I don't care -- get all of your subordinates to that level and sustain it.

Response by SFC Pete Kain made Aug 28 at 2016 3:29 PM

2016-08-28T15:29:48-04:00

Sure, just as soon as we can trust the Soldier to clean their own living space show up on time and be in right uniform and be on time. *SNORT*

Response by CPT Jim Schwebach made Aug 29 at 2016 9:12 AM

2016-08-29T09:12:39-04:00

Being a Soldier is a job and weapons qualification is part of that job, should we let the individual Soldiers provide their own weapons training and range time?

Response by 1SG Mike Case made Aug 29 at 2016 10:29 AM

2016-08-29T10:29:03-04:00

I would have to say no. The APFT is an individual event, but the preparation up to that point definitely is a group activity. Do we help prepare Soldiers for the board or do we, as leaders, just hand them a copy of the MOI and say "good luck"? In my company, the Commander had PT incentives for Soldiers that scored a certain number on the APFT. If you could not meet that score, then you came to company PT. Now during that we gave two days to the Squad leader for them to focus on their individual Soldier but the other two days feel under the purview of the company. It was briefed that if scores started suffering, then we made it only one day for squad leaders. We tried to give that leeway to the leaders to let them develop PT plans. The Soldiers who scored that high number usually could do that at any given moments. Most of them were already in great shape prior to the military, but most Soldiers, if left to their own devices, would more often than not, sleep in and not conduct PT on their own.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Aug 29 at 2016 12:28 PM

2016-08-29T12:28:11-04:00

Some can, many won't. Also unit PT is a good way for the leadership to do a quick over all eval of the level of their unit. Having individual PT a few days a week and unit PT the other days would keep things on the up and up.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2016 3:07 PM

2016-08-29T15:07:09-04:00

I liked the idea where units I was in had a designated PT time where you had to be in the gym doing your own workouts back in the day. I find that I know my own "battle rhythm" better than anyone else and I know what I need to do to exercise and back in the day it worked. I maxed/surpassed PT standards to 18 year olds out of boot camp. I got more out of my own work out then doing the "rah rah" squadron joint PT sessions.

Response by Lazaro Alcazar made Aug 29 at 2016 6:13 PM

2016-08-29T18:13:42-04:00

Physical training is very important and necessary at all times... A strong soldier is sure to win the fight...

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 29 at 2016 7:16 PM

2016-08-29T19:16:44-04:00

At my last unit, the biggest PT failures were to officers and senior NCOs we never saw at PT anyway.
Unit PT was never very productive. I managed, in one gym session, what my unit managed in one week.
My NCO wants us to do group PT (I work in a clinic, so we do our own PT after work), but can't fathom thw fact that I have a torn ligament in my wrist, so weight lifting and front-leaning rest are not things I can do.
Even without those, I still manage to get a well-rounded workout 3 days during the week, and spend 2-10hrs each Saturday doing sports.
Unless someone has a thyroid issue, or is on a steroid treatment, they are responsible for their weight and they are responsible for their fitness.
I have no stability in my knee, torn ligament in my wrist, and a potential heart condition, and I still manage to Ace my modified PT test.
And I am not a natural runner, by any means

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Aug 29 at 2016 7:23 PM

2016-08-29T19:23:40-04:00

I can't ever remember anyone failing a PT test, ever. Unthinkable. You would get your balls busted big time, and be badly embarrassed. Really 1st class PTs aren't really all that tough.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2016 1:30 AM

2016-08-30T01:30:05-04:00

In theory, yes. I put it up there with expecting Soldiers to show up on time, in the proper uniform, study Skill Level 10 tasks, and keep their equipment and personal life in a high state of readiness. All of these things require a crucial element; Soldiers with the discipline and drive to do the right thing at all times. Until you have a unit that has accomplished all those small things, "Individual PT" will never be a success in the conventional Army.

That being said, there are major improvements that the Army needs to undertake with their force wide physical fitness. This started with the introduction of the MFTs but needs to branch out from there, with the elimination of PRT. There are multiple programs in circulation throughout the special operations community, and more specialized Infantry units that have proven time and time again that they work, and meet the standards of injury prevention and recovery that the Army touts PRT as doing (which it does not, all the while driving down PT scores).

The problem we face throughout conventional ranks is we are expecting junior Leaders to come up with a balanced, driven, results oriented PT program that challenges and engages Soldiers of all fitness levels. How is that a problem? They don't have the training, knowledge or understanding of physical fitness to be able to create those plans. What you get is a one size fits all mentality that has no sense, or direction. In everything we do we require instructors to be trained, supervised, and mentored in their tasks. Why is physical fitness any different? This includes "PT studs" who get those 300s and then somehow think they can build a program for their Soldiers. The MFT was meant to be a starting block to this problem, but it's still growing, and not as widely spread as it needs to be.

All of that returns to the point of individual PT. Does the force have the requisite knowledge to build a comprehensive fitness plan for themselves that allows them to improve, or more importantly complete the mission? I would love to be able to let guys loose to complete whatever they wanted. The fact of the matter is it is my responsibility to ensure they are ready and capable. It is my responsibility to sit down with my junior NCOs and develop plans that they can execute on their level that will help them complete their mission and ensure their Soldiers are ready to fight. More importantly, I want to see if the guys that are doing well have the drive, and leadership ability to try and help Soldiers that are struggling. It's an easy tool to gauge individual leadership potential.

Unit PT can be made to be effective with knowledge, planning and dedication to actually creating a workable plan. There's also nothing stopping Soldiers from doing individual PT during lunch, after work, or if they can frame it correctly with their command team, in the afternoons.

In reality, I'd love to be able to dedicate that time block to my own programming, but it's just not going to happen, so I owe it to my guys to fully invest in on how I can make them better collectively.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2016 9:10 AM

2016-08-30T09:10:19-04:00

I really do wonder what type of Army we would have if we started treating people like adults and expecting them to act the part? This is just one of many examples. You do the right thing and work out on your own, you take an APFT / HW twice a year and you do well on it, no one bats an eye and continues business as normal. You fail said APFT or bust tape, the individual is hemmed up for doing the wrong thing instead of punishing the group...novel idea, I know.

I REALLY wonder what would happen if we applied this sort of thinking to the other programs in the Army...An exercise on Darwinism that shapes the force and retains 'quality Soldiers'.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2016 10:29 AM

2016-08-30T10:29:31-04:00

PT is a personal responsibility. The individual knows the standard, they know it's part of their job, and they know it's a condition of "continued employment". I think it's a good way to weed out slackers. If you can't have enough personal pride, or a professional commitment to maintain your physical readiness, maybe you need to be chapters...

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2016 7:33 PM

2016-08-30T19:33:52-04:00

No. Unit PT is essentially the Unit's way of ensuring you are physically prepared. You are still expected to PT on your own time.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Feb 22 at 2018 1:14 PM

2018-02-22T13:14:15-05:00

NO- slugs will be unfit, you won't know who is capable and who needs work. Not saying that the unit needs to run strict PT every day. Some of my units did aerobics or Tai Kwando periodically- football, push ball, obstacle courses, etc. The commander is ultimately responsible for his unit's fitness and training.

Response by SPC July Macias made Sep 3 at 2021 7:21 PM

2021-09-03T19:21:46-04:00

Something I've experienced both on Active Duty and in the Reserves: Organized PT seems to have no effect on physical fitness. The only physically fit soldiers were the ones who did PT on weekends. And I was one of them.