Should soldiers be worried about senior officers wearing their religion on the sleeves, promoting theirs?

MAJ Carlos "CAP" A Puentes Sr — Sun, 24 May 2015 12:20:02 -0400

If Flag officers promote theirs in front of others, pressure will create perception of favoritism and exclusion about others who have different belief's. Are they or will they feel disadvantaged or discriminated against? Where does it stop once the "can" of religion is opened?

The 'Taliban' in Our Midst

Military officers who wear their religion on their sleeve are a danger to our country at any time, but especially after the terrorists attacks of September 11, 2001.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made May 24 at 2015 12:24 PM

SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. — Sun, 24 May 2015 12:24:17 -0400

I really see no difference between a senior officer promoting a specific flavor of religion and a state sponsored religion.

Response by Capt John Cable made May 24 at 2015 12:47 PM

Capt John Cable — Sun, 24 May 2015 12:47:40 -0400

There is an important difference between someone who is passionate and open, perhaps even outspoken about his or her religion and someone who promotes their religion in an innapropriate way. The former is perfectly acceptable but can potentially be annoying. The latter is a clear violation and is unacceptable at any level. What some people need to understand is that simply speaking about religion isn't a problem. A flag officer speaking about being a Christian, Agnostic, Athiest etc. is no different than talking about the joy of collecting baseball cards. I may not care for baseball cards, but as long as I have the freedom to not join that club, then nobody's rights have been violated. We do not have a right to be free from hearing, seeing, or otherwise being exposed to religion, we have a right to not have it forced upon us or having religion sponsorored or promoted by the government or its representatives. People in general need to get over being so easily offended, so very sensitive, and so politically correct. Just my humble opinion.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made May 24 at 2015 1:22 PM

PFC Tuan Trang — Sun, 24 May 2015 13:22:14 -0400

I have nothing against this sir, It just the exception for the religion individual.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2015 1:39 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 24 May 2015 13:39:58 -0400

It depends on the context. If someone is at a national prayer event, clearly the subject is about religion and being open about your beliefs is expected. For the 70-ish% of people that identify with the same religion as the speaker, I'm sure it's a feel-good rally and a great time.

If this it were a mandatory event or one where attendance was "highly encouraged" it becomes inappropriate to endorse your brand (or lack of) religion.

I don't wear my atheist dog tags so that everyone can see nor do I mention it unless someone asks. As silly as I find believing in supernatural entities and goat sacrifices are, I've had to correct a subordinate when he was openly badmouthing religion in the office even though I agreed with what he was saying 100%.

People tend to take things out of context far too often and are quick to assume bad intentions.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made May 24 at 2015 2:05 PM

Cpl Jeff N. — Sun, 24 May 2015 14:05:14 -0400

Life is the total sum of all of your experiences. For some, religion is a cornerstone of that experience. Many want to know what makes senior leaders "tick". What is important to them, how they spend their time, where they seek refuge, wisdom, knowledge. Where do they get their strength, compassion, desire to serve etc.

To share that experience, whatever it may be is appropriate in my judgment. No one is compelled to believe or follow anything.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made May 24 at 2015 7:15 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sun, 24 May 2015 19:15:49 -0400

Never bothered me to see the cross on a Christian Chaplain or the Tablets on a Rabi Chaplain. Actually 2 of my favorites were the Rabis that were Head Chaplain for Pacific Fleet and NE Pacific Fleet in my Time. The only Chaplain I had a distinct dislike of was a Catholic Priest on the California. I would have gladly used him as Oscar the Man Overboard Dummy that we use in drills.

Response by TSgt Kenneth Ellis made May 24 at 2015 8:07 PM

TSgt Kenneth Ellis — Sun, 24 May 2015 20:07:00 -0400

I spent 23 years in the Air Force and never meet an officer who wore his religion in his sleeve. I had officer that was a Christain and set an example. Now I see that officers are coming under attack from Obama for uttering the word Jesus.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2015 9:22 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 May 2015 09:22:47 -0400

As long as the same response to someone explaining one's beliefs, in uniform, at a public event, live on a medium available worldwide is forthcoming from the Air Force or DoD when the speaker isn't a general officer and a Christian, no issue here (well, except for the very loose interpretation of 1-1 / the non-establishment clause by the Air Force). Do we think the response would be the same if this were a junior enlisted or lower ranking officer, or an atheist or a Muslim or some other non-Christian? Honestly, unfortunately, I really do think the official response from the Air Force and DoD would be much different for someone who is not a general and not a Christian.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2015 11:25 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 May 2015 11:25:21 -0400

We are an all volunteer force. We choose to serve and to follow the rules of the Military, some of these recent events definitely damage good order and discipline.

Let's have this conversation without the Religion part, using something way less important. Sports. Imagine you get to a unit, and the first time you encounter your senior leader they ask you "What's your favorite Sports team?" Now for this exercise, they pick a rival team, if you don't like sports they are surprised that you don't like their team, and can't believe that you don't follow their favorite sports in general. Now someone else who just arrived at the unit says they do like whatever team, and your senior leader shows that they have a chain with the logo, a tattoo, and immediately invites your peer who also just arrived to an game on Sunday, to build unit cohesion. How do you feel about this? Does it violate good order and discipline? Imagine if it is something more important, like religion, now what do you think?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2015 5:47 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Jun 2015 17:47:31 -0400

Ideally, the people who are wearing their religion on their sleeves should be the ones worrying.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2015 3:16 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 15:16:05 -0400

Heh, do you have to be worried about the Chaplains then? I think they fit the definition of being a senior officer with their religion on their 'sleeve' or collar. These are sensitive issues because we have made them such. Our country was founded on principles driven by the freedom of choice, whether how to live, what religion to follow. This noble experiment has offered an amazing run (with mistakes, to be sure), but it's also why I serve. Not to tell anyone what they can't do, be, say, or live, but that they are free to express themselves, no matter how much I may disagree. If I'm offended I don't have to choose to listen. That's my opinion. Now you raise the difficult issue. As officers, we are held to a standard where perception is reality. It is VERY difficult to be perceived as non-biased (I carry my own Bias, thank you very much). I think the root of the matter here is not that they are living their religion within the scope of the Military Life (and, honestly, most religions allow for exemplary service and life...with the exception of the conscientious objector to violence in all forms), but the implication that living such a life makes them inherently biased against those not of the particular religion. I think most of the senior officers that attain rank are cognizant of this. I believe a healthy wardroom would allow the discussion of such items, and there were many great essays on these very points delivered by military personnel (can you imagine what Atheists used to endure in the earlier years of the country?). I think the hesitation due to worry of offending or alienating people have chilled the ability to discuss such difficult subjects, for fear of being labeled a bigot, or intolerant. It is all too easy to shift from 'I disagree' to 'you are a moron because I disagree'. When you have a hierarchical organization, without mutual respect, it is all too easy to destroy the 'good order and discipline' due to human reactions, real or imagined offense (why we have sexual harassment; textbook definition is that of a superior requiring certain conduct as a condition of employment).

TLDR: I believe we should be worried about impropriety, rather than openly practicing members of religion in the world's finest military. I don't care what religion you do or do not choose, so long as you serve honorably, with dignity, integrity and the highest sense of moral character.