Should the Army allow training when there is a danger of wildfire?

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Jul 2017 09:35:20 -0400

I'm at AT in California. Yesterday something or someone started a wildfire. Should the Army allow training if there is a severe danger of wildfire?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2017 10:37 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Jul 2017 10:37:30 -0400

Decades ago, I was stationed at Ft Ord, CA and we trained a lot at FtHunter Ligget further south. CA was going through a severe years long drought, and the training areas were covered with long, dry brown grass. But training was indeed severely curtailed due to the fire hazards. No pyrotechnics of any kind. At one point they even prohibited firing blanks.

But OTOH, often at Ft Bragg it would get dry, and fires would start up regularly within the live fire range impact areas. They would just let them burn out as long as they didn't appear to be able to jump over into the regular training areas. In fact, Ft Bragg now has a flower that is on the endangered species list that is found only at Ft Bragg in the impact areas. It is some weird thing that only puts out seeds after a forest fire would burn over it. That's how it evolved. But now that forest fires are controlled, the plants gradually died out. Except at Ft Bragg, where the fires in the impact areas allowed it to keep regenerating.

Response by MSgt John C. made Jul 16 at 2017 10:40 AM

MSgt John C. — Sun, 16 Jul 2017 10:40:34 -0400

My response is perhaps. Rational is being in an environment having high risk of a wildfire being started are conditions that can be and are encountered in the field for reasons being there other than for training. The potential in being such a high risk environment is perhaps greater than being in an area at high risk of avalanches, mud slides, flash floods and other environmental dangers such as tornados.

Further, since WWII military units such as the 555 Parachute Company have been utilized to fight wild fires. The battalion answered some 36 fire calls with more than 1,200 individual jumps during the summer of 1945, operating from Pendleton and Chico, Calif. The operation covered all of the north-western states including Montana. Ref: https://btx3.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/black-soldiers-the-triple-nickle-the-555th-parachute-company-in-wwii/

More recently, BOISE, Idaho, Aug. 17m 2015 (UPI) -- Some 200 active duty military members are being deployed to help battle dozens of wildfires burning throughout the western United States, fire officials said Monday.
The Department of Defense approved a request to send personnel from the 17th Field Artillery Brigage, 7th Infantry Division, Army from Joint Base Lewis-McChord in Washington to battle the blazes. The National Interagency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho, said it's the first time the military has assisted wildfire suppression efforts since 2006.

Black Soldiers – “The Triple Nickle”, the 555th Parachute Company in WWII

Trailblazing paratrooper broke color barrier in secret Thurgood Marshall, Hattie McDaniel, the Tuskegee Airmen and Walter Morris — all African-Americans who made history breaking the color ba…

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2017 1:51 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Jul 2017 13:51:55 -0400

You will have to deal with fires in combat so why not in training? As long as the fire is part of the operation and a unit has a task to observe it there should be no problem. Weather has an affect on operations. Should we train in the rain? Will there be a flash flood risk? It's good to have a staff run through these drills now.
Be Safe.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2017 10:08 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Jul 2017 22:08:06 -0400

There was a HUGE fire at FT Hunter Liggett a few years ago when I was there for AT. Guess what? Training was shut down for 36 hrs. Once the fire was under control, we picked up the exercise missions right where we left off.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jul 17 at 2017 12:00 AM

LTC Jason Mackay — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 00:00:33 -0400

This is a risk that must be evaluated, controlled, mitigated and engaged (Composite Risk Management anyone?), but it should not stop training. It may alter training. It may dictate prohibition of certain munitions under certain conditions. This should all be in the Range SOP from Range Control. This is what is part of the Range OIC/NCO class you usually have to have to sign for a training area/Range. You can have a range fire when no one is out training at all. Range fires are an aspect of military training.

Response by PO3 Johnathan Adams made Jul 17 at 2017 2:03 AM

PO3 Johnathan Adams — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 02:03:42 -0400

Yes, Train like you fight and fight like you train.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Jul 17 at 2017 8:40 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 08:40:46 -0400

If it happens during AT then you'll more then likely get put on fire duty, if it happens before. you'd probably train somewhere else.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2017 9:57 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 09:57:14 -0400

Wildfire is only dangerous when you allow it to fall into the hands of the Lannisters.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Jul 17 at 2017 10:37 AM

SGT Dave Tracy — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 10:37:01 -0400

Did Camp Roberts ignite again? LOL.

I was there for AT a couple years ago a decent sized fire was burning on the other side of the ridge from where we were. Not sure what caused the fire, but we did get to enjoy the acrid whiff of the smoke that hung in the air and when the sun set behind the ridge with all the smoke hanging above it, it made for an eerily cool sight.

As with anything, it depends on the totality of circumstances. I don't doubt some might even make a good case that it could be a beneficial training environment.

We once had to weapons qual at Ft. McCoy as the--and I kid you not--entire range was on fire! In order to conserve ammo, the shed started working in tracer rounds, and as the grass was dry...well, you get the point.

Neither Range Control nor those in the tower seemed particularly concerned despite the fact that fires were literally burning around all the "Ivans" and everything from 200m on back was completely obscured by smoke. As there were other range related fires that day, no one bothered to come to our little grass fire until the flames reached the wood line. Only then did we stop shooting.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2017 11:31 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 11:31:22 -0400

Yes, you have to wear your blouse when it's hot and you have to train if there is a danger of fire. Your leaders should be monitoring potential issues and take appropriate actions if necessary.

Response by SSG Ronald Bloodworth made Jul 17 at 2017 12:41 PM

SSG Ronald Bloodworth — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 12:41:44 -0400

Three words; "Composite Risk Management"
As a comment above stated, the risk of wildfire should NOT stop training. Having faced the risk of fires in almost every place I've been stationed or deployed, the risk is part of the deal. Wherever measures were put into effect, and followed, the training usually carried on without many serious incidents. Where the mitigation measures were disregarded, bad things usually happened. I've even seen military careers literally ended for individuals who consciously "blew off" fire prevention measures in training exercises. Watched a perfectly good Blackhawk get damn near burned to the ground once at Sill because training cadre deliberately refused to use barrels that were placed at a training site for arty simulators because they weren't "loud" enough for their liking.... the bird was eventually repaired enough to be flown out but the entire training site, including existing structures was burned to ashes and and it took three days to contain it..... in that particular case, training actually was shut down, but only long enough to contain the fire. In the end though, whole incident could have been avoided by simply following safety protocol and utilizing the preventive measures we'd put in place...

Response by MSgt Richard Randall made Jul 17 at 2017 12:58 PM

MSgt Richard Randall — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 12:58:29 -0400

In December 1977, we had a fire at Vandenberg AFB, CA. Known as the Honda Canyon Fire it claimed the life of four people including the base commander and base fire chief. Many more were injured. Active duty personnel did not directly fight the fire but provided ancillary support with transportation, communications, medical and logistical support. The forward command post was located in my duty station because we could physically see the fire, had all the communications equipment and had large maps under plexiglass we used for launch support but, in this case, used to map the fire and the fire crews. I could not imagine any quasi trained military member being able to directly contribute to fighting this kind of fire. Leave it up to the pros.

https://youtu.be/XEbWjjP-ZU0

Honda Canyon Fire VAFB 1977.wmv

20 December 1977 Honda Canyon Fire, Vandenberg AFB CA. God bless Chief Billie J. Belle, Col Joseph Turner Jr., Assistant Chief Eugene Cooper and Dozer Operat...

Response by SGT Patrick Reno made Jul 17 at 2017 1:04 PM

SGT Patrick Reno — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:04:45 -0400

Yes they should. It has happened several times to my youngest son while out on the range down by Boise, Idaho. Hard enough for them to get range time, then they have to stop and put out fires. They have been lucky and not had anything get away from them.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Jul 17 at 2017 7:28 PM

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 19:28:21 -0400

Remember many a time in Graf, Hohenfels and Baumholder being a member of the fire brigade, Wars don't stop because it's dry. You train as you fight

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Jul 17 at 2017 7:33 PM

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 19:33:35 -0400

I do hope since I retired that they did away with the nonsense of Range Officer, NCO and Safety Officer for weapons firing. An old, wise General, General House came to the pistol range and I was the OIC, we were following FORSCOM Range regulations, He called me over and asked, "What is all this Ready on the left, ready on the right BS, is that how you would do it in combat, HELL No, So why do it here, I told him it was FORSCOM regulation, he told me I didn't work for FORSCOM, I worked for him, we spent the rest of the range time just letting Team Leaders and Squad Leaders control their troops and fire, It worked out great!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2017 7:43 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 19:43:29 -0400

This is a huge issue. I work at Camp Parks and it is always a major concern for the Soldiers that are training in the field here. As to whether or not the Army should allow training, well the answer is yes, the Army should. This is what makes our Army strong. NCO's are the ones that should be out monitoring Soldiers and training. We should be developing risk mitigation techniques to combat hazards such as wildfires. This is paramount to our success in combat.

Response by SSG(P) Brian Kliesen made Jul 17 at 2017 7:49 PM

SSG(P) Brian Kliesen — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 19:49:46 -0400

There are very few range areas in the US that are not covered with grass, brush, trees or other volatile vegetation that could catch fire. By their very construction, grass is encouraged to grow to keep the dust down, lower the albedo (glare) and temperature, mitigate flooding, rains and snow, provide cover for wildlife and provide separation between ranges and training areas. Those ranges that have vegetation have well defined procedures in the event of fire and local fire departments can respond quickly to put out or guide fires around infrastructure. Range Staff will regularly burn range and training areas to reduce the vegetation, return the nutrients back into the soil and 'clean up' the plants and trees to renew these areas for wildlife and keep areas from becoming overgrown to ensure future training. Regardless of the conditions, time of year, night, day, weather, winds, temperature, whatever, training has to take place. Controls are put into place to mitigate safety issues, but sh*t still happens. In most areas it is fairly routine. Occasionally things get out of hand and the fire heads towards housing, telephone/power poles, or into areas the range staff would prefer the fire did not go in too, but all in all, it is not that big a deal.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Jul 17 at 2017 9:55 PM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Mon, 17 Jul 2017 21:55:52 -0400

Should the Army allow training??? Why wouldn't they??? It sounds like a perfectly trainable situation. Our lifestyles are filled with danger both planned and unplanned. If you are on a mission, things don't always go according to plan. Adapt and overcome. Besides, like you said... something or someone started it. What better lesson can you get from this than "How to field strip your cigs".

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2017 10:10 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Jul 2017 10:10:51 -0400

I was there too during wild fires couple years back, don't worry training will continue.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jul 19 at 2017 10:24 AM

MSG Brad Sand — Wed, 19 Jul 2017 10:24:24 -0400

Because we have been dealing with fires for all of history. We cannot, and should not, stop training for any such reason but we should make sure the threat is part of the planning.

I remember running the M-60 Assault Lanes for the Advance Course for ROTC, and part of the briefing to the cadets was not to worry about the range fires unless, and until it crossed the last road in front of the firing range because there were fires almost everyday that Summer...and almost everyday a cadet would inform us of a fire. I would ask them, 'Is it across the last road?' Of course it was not, but they would point out there was a fire! I would ask them what they were briefed? That they were not supposed to worry about it if didn't cross the road, BUT there was a fire? I would point out that we had a fire yesterday too and will have one tomorrow if it didn't rain tonight and no one needed to care unless they were planning on playing in the impact zone, and they were not authorized to do that.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2017 10:34 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Jul 2017 10:34:46 -0400

Shoot... that right there is just a little smoldering grass. When I was at Fort Hood they used to send us out with something similar to these (see attached picture) and tell us to have at it.

Response by CW3 George Fitzgerald made Jul 19 at 2017 4:56 PM

CW3 George Fitzgerald — Wed, 19 Jul 2017 16:56:22 -0400

I'm sorry, we don't train because of LIFE?... That is why we have set such stringent Risk Management Programs in place, look at the mission, tasks, risks/benefits for each situation . Can't just automatically say No training today, somebody stared a fire.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Jul 20 at 2017 3:37 PM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Thu, 20 Jul 2017 15:37:29 -0400

Not only should we train in this condition but should always be pushing the envelope. We had a soldier at Ft Hood doing air assault that was made to drink water and lots of it. He became hyponatremic and had to be intubated and on a breathing machine. Whomever got into trouble over that now knows the importance of electrolyte balance and won't make that mistake in combat. If this mistake had been made in combat, we probably would have lost that soldier and tied several others up trying to save him. it is my opinion we need to take risks in peacetime where we have the resources to bail people out from bad decisions than add it to a combat mission.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Jul 20 at 2017 3:43 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Thu, 20 Jul 2017 15:43:37 -0400

http://www.opb.org/news/article/feds-examine-military-flares-in-mysterious-oregon-wildfires/

Feds Examine Military Flares In Mysterious Oregon Wildfires

Federal and state agencies are investigating a string of wildfires in southeastern Oregon with a potential link to military training exercises.

Response by SGT Matthew S. made Jul 23 at 2017 2:56 PM

SGT Matthew S. — Sun, 23 Jul 2017 14:56:39 -0400

Risk management is the key. Be aware of the danger, take steps to mitigate, and know what to do if it happens.

I personally helped several times in dealing with fires that started during garrison training, and while I was in Iraq we used fire against the enemy to burn off the tall grass they liked to hide in, and they used it against us to blind our thermals & slow us down when we tried to pursue and engage.

Aside from a natural element to consider, you also have to keep in mind it's potential as a weapon. Having experience around it, even on a small scale, can make worlds of difference later on.

With the fire fighting experience I've gained since leaving the Army, I think everyone in fire-prone areas should have even just some very basic response training, even if it's only a couple classes on how grass fires move & behave so they can safely leave the area in a hurry if they have to.

Response by SSgt Jerrol Olson made Jul 23 at 2017 3:13 PM

SSgt Jerrol Olson — Sun, 23 Jul 2017 15:13:54 -0400

I had some acreage in Florence CO. Or back deck had a view of Pikes Peak. The had a running joke in our house when we had "red flag" conditions, was I be the damn Army's gonna set the base on fire today.. More times then not, a fire would break out.
Allot of times it would shut down the 115. They set some dooozzies.

Good training.