Should the Army be cutting costs by allowing soldiers to qualify on their weapon virtually?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 01:20:38 -0400

This weekend, my unit is conducting a battalion FTX. During this weekend we will be qualifying via an EST 3000 simulation. Personally, I would like to shoot live rounds down range. Do you think soldiers in the Reserves should be sacrificing real world experience?

Response by Maj John Bell made May 12 at 2016 1:29 AM

Maj John Bell — Thu, 12 May 2016 01:29:14 -0400

I think that virtual marksmanship probably has a solid place in "snap-in" week, but no place in "range" week. But I also think civilization has been on a down hill slide since the invention of the internal combustion engine.

Follow-up edit--So after reading another discussion on marksmanship, I may be all wet. I take it the Army doesn't use the KD course with firing lines at 200, 300, and 500 yards. Does the Army have a "snap-in" week that consist of dry firing and developing muscle memory and endurance for the different firing positions?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 1:50 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 01:50:01 -0400

Nope they should still qualify with live rounds because it never replaces the fear of killing your enemies in real world combat scenario. We already got enough Call of Duty wannabe couch potatoes trying to play war as the real thing.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 1:53 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 01:53:01 -0400

The DOD can waste $160 billion+ (its a money pit) on F35 fighter and its 1100 defects so what is 50 bucks per soldier on ammo?

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 2:00 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 02:00:19 -0400

The EST 3000 is a good prep for when we are getting ready for the range to qualify.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 2:20 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 02:20:37 -0400

It's a sad state that there are still units that can't get ammo. My unit will be doing a qual this summer. I have enough rounds to allow for grouping practice, practice and record qual, and advanced shooting. We will not be turning in ammo..to do so will potentially reduce our draw next year. We won't be just burning up our barrels firing off excess, I have the other events to provide some training value, but I don't understand why the distribution of ammo seems so lopsided in the Reserves.

I used to be with a training command, and we only put lead through a barrel once in the three years I was with them. Maybe it's a budget vs mission need thing with the IT units.

Too bad you are out in Connecticut, or I would invite you to come to my range.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made May 12 at 2016 2:59 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Thu, 12 May 2016 02:59:35 -0400

That's actually a technologically scientifically and or psychologically very interesting question. Some here agree, I'd expect, principally for technological reasons, while others here disagree for what I'd read seemed to be princiapally psychological aspects. There's certainly room for argument in both directions as I perceive the problem, most genuinely; training with the real thing I only got to do while I'd been in army ROTC for three years, as my army ROTC unit, which, unfortunately , no longer exists, got to go to both go down to ft Dix in NJ, as well as up to West point, where we actually trained on the orienteering range, did field exercises, went down the rappelling cliff, stayed with the cadets in the barracks, did formations with them in the barracks quads, and ate with them in the famous main dining hall where MacArthur gave his famous West point speech depicted in the film on him with Gregory Peck. Now, interestingly, when I'd then gone USAF instead, while I'd been at USAF OTS at lackland in San Antonio back when dinosaurs strode the earth in the Pleistocene era, before it was moved to Maxwell in Montgomery, AL , Wed evidently had a couple of options for the faculty , the first to have us do live training as discussed here, the other the obstacle course on the main part of lackland, as we were at actually at the lackland annex next door where the USAF OTS facility itself was located. Amusingly, though I'd wish we'd been allowed, the school faculty. I'd heard, evidently semtmis to the obstacle course, as things turned out, due, as one might perhaps cynically expect, to ammo cost, which I of course found disappointing, though what could one do, you know? The obstacle at lackland main actually had one wickedly high tower one had to climb with ropes which I actually found pretty terrifying, I made it, thankfully , though quite literally pulling myself over the top totally exhaustedly, in all truth, by the skin of my teeth, lol, then had to proceed, again equally terrified, to lower myself down the other side, again, lol. Thus, I think I can perceive both sides of the questions; I think simulation technology has now most definitely reached a stage where the fidelity of it to reality, incl most especially for! a purely psychophysical standpoint, is actually more than adequate to allow for simulation to be used for such a purpose, just as is the case with pilot nav training. I also when on the obstacle course had to do the whole crawling thingmumderbarbed wire with a 50 cal machine gun going off overhead, so between that and the live fire training I'd had at ft Dix and the exercises with blanks mymarmy ROTC unit did at West point I think I got a fair taste, within reason, to at the very least be able to comment halfway intelligently to at least some minimal extent here, within reason, of course. From a purely psychophysical standpoint, if, e.g. , recoil physical effects could be adequately simulated, along with targeting aspects, so as to allow adequate conditioned responses to be acquired, along with, as well, sufficient minimal actual practice on ranges using live fire, and also using blanksmon field exercises, then yes, most definitely , I think the Costa involved could be cut down considerably . I'd read considerable material on pilots and navs grousing about the same sort of questions with regard to flight simulation vs actual air time in a real cockpit. From a purely human factors standpoint, real is obv always best, that goes without saying, however, I'd read an interesting and quite thought provoking quote in amnovel once, to the effect that, with more than some truth I think historically , human technology cpfreq changes human morality, PR words to that effect. For that reason, inevitably , increasing simulation technology will always supplant, with ever increasing reliability , actual physical practice. I'd mentioned on the site here a whole back a website I'd seen on the use of drone trackball technology being mounted on civil air patrol or CAP light aircraft to let drone pilots I think army, mainly, be able to practice airborne drone operations with CAP help, which I and others on here actually thought a most innovative technological coup, if you will, the site can easily be found using Google, there were numerous other sites on that efforts ,as well. During ww2, the link aircraft simulator was hailed as a major breakthrough in pilot training, especially for instrument flight training, through the simple expedient of a cover mounted over the top to prevent pilot trainees fro having any visual horizon reference. The use high-g stress revolving simulators lets aircrew members feel the stress of high-g flight, and the NASA zero-g planes simulate zero-g fairly adequately doing a parabolic flight trajectory , I think, there are those well known videos of NASA personnel floating in the backs of such aircraft while in flight. I've also read of merchant marine simulator training for shipboard personnel, to let them become acquainted with shipboard handling simuiating various harbors worldwide, as well as various hazards to navigation. Samuel Clemens, mark Twain, wrote that navigating the mississippi on paddle wheelers he'd pilot clearly involved memorizing every shoal and Eddy on that river, I wonder, as I type this , what he'd have thought of using simulation technology for that same purpose perhaps. There will always be such a debate; however , as long as fidelity in simulation is complemented to at least some minimal extent with actual practice, to at least a minimally safe extent, then yes, by all means, I do most definitely think it's certainly at least possible, even if not necessarily preferable , or , for those practicing, especially desirable , per se. I've seen numerous instances of video games, as well, that seek to simulate svc mbrs doing urban combat exercises, e.g., clearing houses, as is well known, which, I think, only serves to further reinforce my conclusions that such simulation , while perhaps to be lamented as to necessity, is, in fact, most helpful, from an operant neurological conditioning standpoint, most especially. There was an episode of the program dog the bounty hunter wherein the crew was shown going for tear gas paintball training , which I actually found a most interesting episode, especially the sequence wherein one of the team mbrs volunteered to be hit with one, while wearing protective gear, of course , which I only mention here, as it simply struck me, no pun intended, as pertinent lol. Hope the material here was of interest and or use would be most eager for any thoughts many thanks.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 3:02 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 03:02:05 -0400

SPC Private RallyPoint Member simulators can never replace the live fire of the actual range. However, your unit may be utilizing the opportunity that was presented due to availability of ranges and timing. Do right of the opportunity that you have and maximize the training opportunity. There will be many occasions throughout your career where you may have to take what you get. You just need to make the best of it.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 3:38 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 03:38:50 -0400

So should we switch from shooting in the heat, possibly rain, in the sand, with bright sun and sweat dripping into your eyes, to an air conditioned room with perfect conditions? It's not just about hitting the 300m. It's about familiarization with noise, kick, environment, movement, and resiliency. Nothing can replace that.

Response by SPC Kenneth Koerperich made May 12 at 2016 4:33 AM

SPC Kenneth Koerperich — Thu, 12 May 2016 04:33:47 -0400

When I was in Reserves, we got just enough ammo. Did ROIC @ Pendelton, along w/ a couple of Gunnies for day fire/zero & quals. We had no problems. When night came, for live night fire exercise, due to the Marine restrictions on ROIC hours, I had to leave the range. Left it w/ what I thought was a capable Sgt. But no, 1 hour after I left, first group through the lines, somebody didn't clear 1 SM's wpn before heading down range to check targets. That SM, I guess, from the report I read, lagged behind, & instead of laying the weapon down, w/ a clear chamber, dropped it while Live & shot another SM in the back, whom later died. Needless to say, the ROIC Sgt got relieved, the Gunnies where PeO'd @ the Reserve Unit. We/Unit was no longer allowed to Live fire anymore. They started using the computer systems. Luckily I was off duty when the incident happened. Sorry for the SM that was lost, but, if most Reserve Units were like the 1 I was in, sorry, don't mean to offend, WAY to many Reservists are IDIOTS. Probably why they wanted the 1 combat vet in the unit as ROIC & Wpn trainer all the time. I rarely got to train on the Hospital floor as I was always trying to get the 980 man Unit up to snuff w/ wpn quals & wpns training. So, I can possible see why they are being put into sims instead of Live. To many events like the 1 above makes you think a bit about how to do future quals. What's better/smarter..... As the SSG stated, way to many COD wanna be's trying to be hooah! & actually don't know jack shit & cost/cause harm to others.

JMO!

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 6:16 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 06:16:15 -0400

If this is true, this is detrimental and stupid.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made May 12 at 2016 6:26 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Thu, 12 May 2016 06:26:19 -0400

That simulation is not the same as feeling the rifle firing when you shoot. It's ok for simulation, but you can't sight it in for yourself, like your 16 or M4.

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made May 12 at 2016 7:29 AM

MAJ Javier Rivera — Thu, 12 May 2016 07:29:42 -0400

No! Virtual training can be used as part of a pre-marksmanship program before sending troops to the range. With a good coach and those electric widgets it will pay lots of dividends. Nevertheless, you train as you fight! Life ammo and full battle rattle is the way it must go!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 7:34 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 07:34:54 -0400

There is no substitute for shooting live rounds. It's like letting someone have a driver's license just because they can drive in Gran Turismo. You can teach the fundamentals to a certain degree using it. However, real guns have quirks, so does the ammo. You need to shoot YOUR assigned weapon to get familiar with it so that when you get into a fight, you know how that weapon operates.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 7:44 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 07:44:12 -0400

I think reservists should NOT be sacrificing real world experience, however, that being said, and dependent whom takes office in January, the military budget may be slashed down to the bare minimum and this might be one of the many ways to do that.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 7:58 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 07:58:58 -0400

If I'm not mistaken (it has happend before) 350-1 specifies how NG and USAR alternate between KD range and 25m alt course. I also believe it does specify (again my be mistaken going off of memory) the circumstances that a EST may or may not be used for qual. That may have been a policy memo?? A lot comes into play with funding allocation i.e.: are you a TDA unit or MTOE unit etc.

Response by CSM David Heidke made May 12 at 2016 8:01 AM

CSM David Heidke — Thu, 12 May 2016 08:01:48 -0400

https://youtu.be/wEcu7d4dvXg

Glory (1989) Rifle Training Scene!

Response by CSM Chuck Stafford made May 12 at 2016 8:17 AM

CSM Chuck Stafford — Thu, 12 May 2016 08:17:32 -0400

One trains with the resources available - time, land, manpower, equipment, etc.

That said, I concur that live rounds is the better experience:
Nothing beats firing, cleaning and maintaining the weapons you will take downrange with you. Additionally, the ancillary training benefits to the units leadership:
Obtaining and transporting ammo, securing the range, running the range safely, TLP, etc -- it all adds up to building a competent team

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made May 12 at 2016 8:43 AM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Thu, 12 May 2016 08:43:20 -0400

You never ever get enough trigger time. The EST is a training tool to assist in BRM training. It is not there as a replacement for the real thing.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 8:46 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 08:46:10 -0400

No.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 9:02 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 09:02:55 -0400

This is ridiculous that this is what the army has come too.

Response by SPC Burt Epps made May 12 at 2016 9:20 AM

SPC Burt Epps — Thu, 12 May 2016 09:20:40 -0400

So the Army is advocating playing video games rather than live fire qualification? How do you simulate that little puff of smoke if you have a little to much oil on your weapon? That stinging in your eyes.....The feel of the trigger on your weapon, the recoil of YOUR weapon, the conditions that you encounter not only on the range but in a live fire situation, I don't see that being replicated on a video game. I remember the dummy grenades in basic training, and having blank adapters on our weapons during training exercises, but never had experience on a simulator for weapons training or qualification.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 9:37 AM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 09:37:20 -0400

Shooting the EST (ISMT) for USMC, is not the same as qualifying on the 500 meter line. The center of gravity is different, the recoil is different and there is a large black air hose hanging off of the weapon. There is no replacement for live fire. ISMT can be used for training scenarios or to maintain proficiency of team leaders in decision making and target selection and engagement. But nothing will every adequately simulate running from the 500 to the 200 with a bayonet fixed and then engaging targets in the prone.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 10:11 AM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 10:11:02 -0400

Nothing can replace real world experience, though I have appreciated it when doing night fire or CBRN exercises. The EST range allows for soldiers to operate in a night time setting by simply turning out the lights and the change of a screen.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 10:45 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 10:45:24 -0400

The EST's are definitely a good resource to ENHANCE and SUPPLIMENT live fire but I do not believe it is a substitute for using real ammo. The trigger press, recoil, sound, ballistics are all different from the real deal.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made May 12 at 2016 11:05 AM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Thu, 12 May 2016 11:05:43 -0400

No. I've shot ISMT before and despite being a fun little distraction, there are things you can't replace with a simulation. The smell of a spent round. The sound of rounds going down range. How to perform corrections for a weapons malfunction. How to adjust your sights. The feeling of lying down in the dirt or in a puddle or freezing your ass off and trying to keep your weapon straight despite your shivering. These are real things you would have to experience in the field.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 11:08 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 11:08:02 -0400

sure if wars will be conducted virtually now. We all know that live fire in combat is the exact same as call of duty.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made May 12 at 2016 1:05 PM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Thu, 12 May 2016 13:05:28 -0400

I remember years of cut back when we fired .22 subcaliber rounds. Not the same. No nothing takes the place of firing a live round.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2016 2:50 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 May 2016 14:50:35 -0400

The military needs to have a moratorium on virtual training. This stuff is garbage. We live in the physical world. We need to train to interface with the real world as well. The bullets are real, the IEDs are real and our enemies are real. So that'd be a no.

Response by SGT Alicia Brenneis made May 12 at 2016 4:03 PM

SGT Alicia Brenneis — Thu, 12 May 2016 16:03:09 -0400

The EST is a good training tool but should never count as a weapons qualification. That should always be with live rounds on a range.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made May 12 at 2016 6:57 PM

SFC Jim Ruether — Thu, 12 May 2016 18:57:22 -0400

The cost for 5.56 Ball FMJ ammo is so cheap that it is silly to take away the range experience and put a soldier in front of a simulator. Where are you going to get the wonderful smell of gun powder and Break Free burning off the barrel of a freshly cleaned rifle? The sounds of that recoil compensator spring in the stock rebound by your ear? The sound of that bolt locking open after you've emptied the magazine? These things are important in a soldiers development and eventual maturity into a full blooded American Soldier! Tell your NCO it's brass, powder and lead for me Sergeant! Hoorah!

Response by SFC Joe Ping made May 13 at 2016 1:36 AM

SFC Joe Ping — Fri, 13 May 2016 01:36:09 -0400

No you will not be qualifying. You better pull the regs. They do not allow for qualifying on the EST.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 4:22 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 May 2016 16:22:32 -0400

Est 2000 individual weapons qualification is not authorized...reserve or not.....