Should the Army have Drill Sergeants at every installation?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 10:50:31 -0400

To further clarify, do you believe that the Army should institute Drill Sergeant Duty at Army installations?

He is the reason for my questions:

When I was an Active Duty Sergeant, I was appalled at the loss of discipline for soldiers that arrived in my company and in my squad. When I say lack of discipline, I am talking complete utter lack of discipline, the kind that deserves a butt stoke to the head. It became very apparent to me that TRADOC teaches and ENFORCES (key word here) military standards of discipline, however regular Army NCO's do not have the same standards of discipline, knowledge, and enforcement capability.

Do you think that the Army should put a Drill Sergeant detachment on every installation for two reasons:

1. To provide refresher training (min-boot camps) to those troops that are 8-up.

2. To enfore the standards, and to force other Sergeants to enfore the standards.

I don't know, I figure that every Sergeant in the Army should be trained to act as a Drill Sergeant all the time in both conduct and performance.

Even NCO's need a little kick in the butt sometimes.

What say you?

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 19 at 2015 10:55 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 10:55:33 -0400

Isn't this what 1SG's and CSM's are for? If this is necessary, it may be time to clean house in the Senior NCO pools...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2015 6:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 18:18:28 -0400

I feel that Drill Sergeants should only be for Basic Training. If you start using Drill Sergeants for ensuring the level of discipline maintains than why should we even have a NCO Corp. I feel that if lower enlisted are losing their bearing than they should be corrected on the spot by any higher ranking individual in a professional way, that is why we have general military authority.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2015 7:06 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Mar 2015 19:06:54 -0400

The job of the senior enlisted and NCO corps is to police their troops. In every service. Basic training is just that, basic. Permanently stationed "babysitters" on each base is not the answer.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2015 12:05 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 00:05:19 -0400

Absolutely horrible idea! The NCO Corps just needs to do the job they are duty bound to perform. Anybody suggesting this fix is shirking their own responsibilities and pushing them off onto somebody else.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2015 12:09 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 00:09:18 -0400

I had lunch at the PX today and saw a private walking around with her bun sloppy and falling out. I told her it was falling out and received a blank stare and a flat "thank you." Burned me, but I was with my family so I did not make a scene. My Soldiers know better, and show it every day. They are a reflection of my leadership, just like every other soldier is a reflection of theirs. They don't need a DS, because no one is more professional than I.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Mar 20 at 2015 12:33 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 00:33:26 -0400

I guess you are making the assumption that drills are separate from other NCO's. They are not. We are all the same. And if you think they are perfect, take a look at some of the covers of the recent Army Times.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 20 at 2015 12:39 AM

COL Charles Williams — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 00:39:07 -0400

All NCOs and Officers need to enforce Standards. Drill Sergeants are for training Soldiers in IET/BCT. The vast majority of Senior NCOs in all of my units have been former Drill Sergeants... That is why all of my units were kick ass. I disagree that regular Army NCOs don't have the same capability... Being a Drill Sergeant is a job, being a professional NCO is a state of mind. What are you thinking?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2015 12:54 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 00:54:02 -0400

I have a heavy level of respect for Drill Sergeants, especially considering that I have been aiming to be one since E1. However, comma, Drill Sergeants have a role. Build the basics of a soldier out of a civilian. The lack of basic soldiering of NCOs and Officers come down to unit level leadership. Although Drill Sergeants are the epitome of the standard," We can not allow ourselves to cheapen them by making them so highly accessible and visible. Also, individual disciple falls on t e individual and the individual's unit, aka, leaders.

Response by SSG Eddye Royal made Mar 20 at 2015 1:26 AM

SSG Eddye Royal — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 01:26:46 -0400

Its been awhile since, I been in but that used to bea rotation assignment like REQUITMENT of soldiers. That is not a job,

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2015 2:14 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 02:14:46 -0400

Rather than Drill Sergeants, I think we need to further emphasize NCO development. With the fast promotion rates and promoting simply to fill slots we've built an NCO corps that has not had near the time to develop that their predecessors did. In the Company I deployed with 2 out of 3 Platoon Sergeants had less than 10 years in. That is very different from the 20 year veterans our new junior enlisted and Lieutenants are brought up to expect.

More importantly we need to allow them to do their job and hem up those falling short. Too often we have leaders who want to be their Soldiers buddies and not hold them accountable when needed. As a new Company Commander I had a SSG who was shocked when I counseled him for disobeying a direct order. This is absolutely the wrong direction for our force to be headed.

Response by SGT Steve Oakes made Mar 20 at 2015 5:44 AM

SGT Steve Oakes — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 05:44:14 -0400

Everywhere I go, Theres a Drill Sergeant there! Everywhere I go, Theres a Drill Sergeant there! ... Drill Sergeant...Drill Sergeant. Why don't you leave me alone,... Why don't you let me go home.

Response by SGT John Wesley made Mar 20 at 2015 5:49 AM

SGT John Wesley — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 05:49:10 -0400

No, but NCO's need to step up, and their Senior NCO's and Officers should back them. Treat your troops with respect, but brook no bullsh*t.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2015 7:28 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 07:28:51 -0400

Whoa there guy! Where's your P.T. belt?

There are three training domains; Institutional, Operational, and Self-development. CSMs/1SGs would fall into the operational domain such as NCOPDs; WLC, ALC, SLC would fall into the institutional domain; sticking your face in doctrine, regulations, history, customs and courtesies, etc would fall into the self development domain.

Senior NCOs only have so much time to teach you your duties and responsibilities, you must be responsible to educate yourself. Not referencing "you" specifically but NCOs in general, including myself.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2015 8:06 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 08:06:23 -0400

It does not take a drill sergeant to enforce the standards. To many times I hear well I dont enforce something because I don't agree. We need to get that mindset out. For example talking with a store owner when buying boots and he talked about he would inform high senior ranking grades the boots were unauthorized and they didn't care. A drill sergeant is not there to fix that.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Mar 20 at 2015 9:09 AM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:09:45 -0400

No! That is what NCO's are for. If they aren't enforcing standards, they have SNCOs and Officers to hold them accountable.

Response by LCpl Loyd Phillips made Mar 20 at 2015 9:12 AM

LCpl Loyd Phillips — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:12:15 -0400

If you want Dirt Dogs to act like Jarheads then they should have Enlisted them in the Marine Corps.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Mar 20 at 2015 9:26 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:26:01 -0400

No
Just Leaders willing and able to do their job

Response by CSM Michael Lynch made Mar 20 at 2015 9:43 AM

CSM Michael Lynch — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:43:50 -0400

We have NCO's nothing else is needed

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Mar 20 at 2015 11:07 AM

Maj Chris Nelson — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 11:07:50 -0400

It comes down to positions/jobs. At a training platform, there is a need for Drill Sergeants/TI/(and other terms as branch specific). At a permanent duty station, what would be their job? Their unit? In an Infantry or Artillery unit, would they actually be in that unit? Would they be "geographically separated unit"? If they are a GSU, do they actually have any authority over permanent party unit members? Nice thinking, but I don't see how it could be implemented and have any significant teeth. Better idea would be to take the NCOs that are slacking on their Creed out back and beat them until they remember who and what an NCO SHOULD be. Once they start taking care of business, things will work out over time.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2015 11:30 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 11:30:31 -0400

I believe that NCOs should handle their business of correcting soldiers at all times, and especially by leading by example first.

I feel that many Specialists are being promoted to Sergeant, however there is no "NCO standards" training that is required for each newly promoted SGT.

I mean, in Regular Army, one day you are a SPC and then next you are a SGT.

I think the army should have a standardized NCO Professional Development Course that emphasizes the ACTIONS, INTERACTIONS, and RESPONIBILITIES that an NCO must perform, be held to, and to implement. WLC/PLDC is not a training method for this.

Just because you are promoted doesn't mean that you know how to act, or what to do.

I am not in favor of having Drill Sergeants at installations, I just wanted to pose the question.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Mar 20 at 2015 11:32 AM

1LT William Clardy — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 11:32:19 -0400

SGT Private RallyPoint Member, you ask a reasonable question, but you also acknowledge that it's the wrong answer.

Wearing the hat is not (or should not be) considered a prerequisite to being a competent, professional NCO. Good leadership is not something which is restricted to a training environment, and the notion drill sergeants are somehow inherently different from other sergeants is a self-handicapping meme.

I know that the Army is not alone in this "Only Drill Sergeants can do that" misperception. A couple of years ago, I had some extended conversations with a pair of Marine sergeants major, one of whom kept insisting that it was unreasonable to expect his NCOs to demonstrate the leadership skills he would only expect a drill instructor to possess. My counterpoint was that he was setting the leadership standard too low, and what he considered to be a DI-level standard of leadership was less demanding than what my battalion commander spelled out back when I was a corporal in the 101st. Significantly, he was also unable to point out any leadership techniques I was suggesting which were no longer considered acceptable.

The bottom line is that maintaining good order and discipline requires leadership and patient stubbornness. At some point in the chain of command, someone has to say, "This is what must be done. No excuses." and then have the intestinal wherewithal (and authority) to force subordinates to play whack-a-mole with each and every excuse offered ("My wife expects me home at a regular time", "My sergeants have families", "When are we supposed to have time to plan that?", "What's the big deal about 15 minutes of slack time?").

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2015 11:46 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 11:46:45 -0400

That's what NCOs are for. You don't need to be a drill sergeant to smoke someone when they are out of line or instill discipline or enforce standards.

Response by 1SG Rob Croxdale made Mar 20 at 2015 12:28 PM

1SG Rob Croxdale — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:28:20 -0400

Here's an idea... How about letting the DS do his job in basic training without him or her worrying about loosing their rank for "offending" someone or "hurting their feelings". In the 25 years since I was in basic, the Army and every other service has become so weak in boot camp it's appalling.

I don't imply that basic trainees should be abused. I'm saying that the military has followed societies lead on disciplinary action in schools and it isn't working. The people from my generation got spanked when we did wrong. Now the military won't allow the DS to discipline in the strict manner they should.

We are all volunteer and their should be some inherent things that apply to your enlistment like getting your ass handed to you by cadre.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Mar 20 at 2015 12:33 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:33:18 -0400

Whatever happened to "Hey Marine/Soldier/Airman/Sailor, let me borrow you for a minute" pull them off to the side and make a correction out of earshot.

If someone is jacked up, fix them. It doesn't require someone wearing a goofy hat. It doesn't require an extra set of stripes. It requires a minimum amount of tact, courtesy, and just enough willingness to escalate it up to a boot in the $^$^ if needed.

We're professionals. If we're jacked up, we want to know. Work under the assumption that the other person is a professional as well, and they would like the same courtesy.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Mar 20 at 2015 1:01 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 13:01:16 -0400

They had this 25 years ago. It was called a few things. One was School of the Soldier. The most prevalent , Correctional Custody Facility (CCF). Aka college for cool folks and Charlie's Chicken Farm.
- It was resourced out of NCOs from units. A soldier could be sent there on nothing more than a counseling statement.
- I think CCF could work but do not think Drill Sergeants at large would. It sounds almost like Soviet Army Political Officers.
- CCF could be a last ditch effort before chapter. At the end of the day is it worth it?
- most chapters are terminal to start with.
- TRADOC is perennially short Drill Sergeants, that OBTW come from the operating force.

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made Mar 20 at 2015 1:57 PM

GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 13:57:28 -0400

We used to have a saying in the Marine Corps: "What are they going to do, send me back to boot camp?" Sounds like that is what is being proposed here! If the NCOs and Staff NCOs are so bad that this kind of thing needs to be considered, maybe those NCOs and Staff NCOs need to be escorted out the front gate.

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Mar 20 at 2015 2:45 PM

PO3 Steven Sherrill — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 14:45:10 -0400

It is sad that it is necessary.

I was Navy, so I don't know how the army does things, but here is my two cents. Maybe not an actual drill instructor, but maybe something like the ASMT. When I went to Sonar School in the Navy, for our "A" School, we lived in an open bay barracks, and we had an ASMT. When one of the student's got out of line, they would "suggest" that the student correct their bearing by way of pushups, situps, cleaning the head, extra duties, etc. I put suggest in quotes because while we were not in boot camp anymore, and they weren't going to send someone back, they could certainly make life miserable if you failed to comply. They were easily recognizable by the red and white aiguillette that they wore.

Maybe that is what is needed, a person with the authority to correct flaws in discipline like a drill instructor without having the outward bearing of a DI.

Response by SSgt Tim Ricci made Mar 20 at 2015 3:02 PM

SSgt Tim Ricci — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 15:02:19 -0400

Sounds like a Leadership Problem to me! A leader does not Demand respect but Commands respect. Even a DSs mission is different than that of a Unit NCO, Train People to Be Soldiers is more of a Demand than that of Command, they are not mentoring they are training. Once these personnel are in Units the Basic job is that of a Squad Leader. The Squad leader should be the first line of command and mentoring, and then on up to the Plt Sgt, 1st Sgt Etc.. We all have had that less than Desirable Platoon Sgt, or even Platoon Leaders, I know I have. It has been over 30 years since my Army days but I do remember going to BLC (Basic Leadership Course) as a Spec-4 and PLC (Primary Leadership Course) as a Sgt, and I was a Sgt in less than 3 years. the Idea of having a Squad or Platoon Of Drill Sgts on every Post to Police the troops is out of the realm of a DS Mission. Now as a side note: When I was in the Army, there was a Small Facility Called CCF (Correction Custody Facility) or (Charlies Chicken Farm). That in my mind was a good tool that Commanders could use to set a young trooper straight, minimum 14 days of remediation or even up to 28 days. I only knew of one troop in our unit getting sent there, and after successful completion and a kinda probation upon return, his Article 15 was erased from his SRB and he went on to become a Hell of a Trooper. I have maintained Contact a know that he retired, five or six years ago as an CSM

Response by SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. made Mar 20 at 2015 9:51 PM

SFC Dan Sorrow, M.S. — Fri, 20 Mar 2015 21:51:52 -0400

No, as a former Drill Sergeant, I don't believe Drill Sergeants should be assigned to perform the duties you described. Those are the duties and responsibilities of every NCO, Drill Sergeant qualified or not.

There are ways to instil discipline that was somehow lost between the IET environment and their current duty station.

If those methods fail, there are non-judicial actions available to help encourage the soldier to perform. If that doesn't work, there are administrative actions available as well.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 2:27 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 14:27:30 -0400

Drill Sergeants are there to teach the standards in Basic. NCOs and Officers are there to enforce the standards once a SM has reached their duty station. End of discussion.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2015 3:04 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Apr 2015 15:04:24 -0400

i think an NCO should be the standard. we (privates) look up to the NCO's and we use them as examples. if we see an NCO doing something that is wrong in a sense some of us not all will lead by example. having Drill Sergeants everywhere wont help the cause only worsen it, because then there enforcing everything and not the other NCO that isnt a Drill Sergeant.

Response by SSG John Erny made Apr 16 at 2015 11:45 AM

SSG John Erny — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 11:45:30 -0400

SSG Jon Quigley, COL Charles Williams SGT Joseph Butler

Gentlemen,

Would it be helpful to have Drill Instructors at each installation to refresh the minds those who have a problem with following /meeting the standards. Or perhaps those who tend to get in trouble a lot. Give them the shark treatment for a week and see if those lost souls can see the light? Would fear of being sent to such training help keep others in line?

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Apr 16 at 2015 8:53 PM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 20:53:23 -0400

Since when did NCO's become relieved of their responsibility of enforcing standards? Has something changed in the five years I've been retired?

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 16 at 2015 9:07 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 21:07:01 -0400

How would these DSs be instituted? It shouldn't take a DS to enforce standards.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 9:48 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 21:48:38 -0400

A big problem with NCOs these days is that a lot of them are only focused on their careers and being friends with their soldiers. As a leader and supervisor, they need to realize that they need to get their soldiers in line and enforce standards and discipline or else the soldiers will just walk all over them and act like they run the unit.

We need to fix the Corps of Non Commissioned Officers before we place blame on the soldiers, it's our fault they are the way they are and the only way to fix the issue is to look deep inside ourselves and do the job we were promoted to do.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2015 3:11 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Apr 2015 03:11:55 -0400

We do not need day care workers with a stick up their butt acting as defacto police. That is just insulting.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2015 4:15 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Apr 2015 04:15:03 -0400

I say no because if they didn't do their jobs to instill the discipline at basic training then they will not make a difference at any other duty assignment. It's up to us as NCOs to pick up where they left off and enforce the standards for soldiers to follow. We don't need the Drill Sergeants to do that for us. And also some people are just not going to be as disciplined as others no matter who is there.

Response by SFC Stephen King made Apr 18 at 2015 6:25 AM

SFC Stephen King — Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:25:04 -0400

No, NCO'S need to the provide purpose, motivation and direction. We have been tasked as the standard enforcers once inducted into the NCO corps of our respective branch.

Being able live the Creed of the Non Commissioned Officer, Knowing when to enforce or provide guidance to assist others and doing your best to live the values of your service.

To correct a Soldier regardless of the situation Is not only the NCO'S job it is all who serves job.

Learning to be tactful that is a skill one must learn as well.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 11:43 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 11:43:34 -0400

DS Duty is a duty title, you do your time and move on. An NCO never stop doing what we do, regardless of duty title or position. We need to do what we do best, teach, train and mentor. DS's are needed at BCT. If they are needed at each installation then we as NCOs are failing. WE, NCOs uphold the standards.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 2:47 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 14:47:50 -0400

Lord, save us from TRADOC NCOs... The reason those "Regular Army NCOs" aren't managing their soldiers the same as those in TRADOC is simple. It's because those NCOs and their soldiers have actual missions to accomplish. If a soldier is completing the PMD inspection at 02:30, taking the time to properly maintain unit equipment, as well as their personal gear, shows up on time (and by "on time", I mean at a pre-planned time. NOT that moment when the 1SG sees more than three soldiers present and decides to yell "Fall in!"), and doesn't leave his/her team mates carrying more of the mission than they should, then having some dude in a "smokey hat" strutting around hollering at people will only detract from unit effectiveness.

Response by SSgt William Norvell made Apr 19 at 2015 2:54 PM

SSgt William Norvell — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 14:54:22 -0400

You do not need Smokey the Bear yelling at you like you did in basic training. To tell you the truth that will bring on more troubles. That is why you have NCO'S and a chain of command.

Response by SGT Shane Killgore made Apr 19 at 2015 2:55 PM

SGT Shane Killgore — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 14:55:42 -0400

I believe there is a line to be drawn ..enlisted soldiers are people just like NCO's and officers...everyone needs to be respected regardless of rank...just becausese your an nco doesn't mean you can treat your enlisted like shit...cause you wont get the respect...respect your soldiers they will respect you... everyone needs to work as a team and get their mission done PERIOD!!

Response by SGT Shane Killgore made Apr 19 at 2015 3:02 PM

SGT Shane Killgore — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 15:02:54 -0400

I believe their is a line....Everyone needs to be treated as a person regardless!!! If you treat your soldiers with respect you will get the respect... yes discipline when needed...but dont treat your soldiers like shit because your rank got to your head...everyone needs to work as a team to get the mission done!!!! Yes discipline needs to be reinforced for wartime purposes.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 3:34 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 15:34:17 -0400

NCOs need to enforce standards. If Soldiers can't/won't meet standards then do a little light reading and open AR 635-200.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 3:38 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 15:38:53 -0400

NO! If NCOs and Officers can't do their jobs of enforcing the standards then we're screwed.

Response by SPC Shane Arton made Apr 19 at 2015 4:00 PM

SPC Shane Arton — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 16:00:01 -0400

Nco's need to be strict and enforce Army values but also need to give some space at certain times, if you know what I mean. They can't be hard asses 100% of the time.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Apr 19 at 2015 4:08 PM

Cpl Jeff N. — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 16:08:09 -0400

If freshly minted enlisted soldiers are leaving boot camp and arriving at their next/first duty station (school) undisciplined and already out of regulation etc., where do you think the break down is? I would argue it is basic training that isn't working not NCO's at the next station.

Since all NCO's at some point went through basic training and know what the standards are and how they should be met they are responsible for ongoing "maintenance" or rework if you have a problem child. Putting drill instructors at other bases to correct what wasn't corrected in boot camp seems a little backwards. Fix basic training/boot camp.

Response by SPC John Decker made Apr 19 at 2015 4:56 PM

SPC John Decker — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 16:56:44 -0400

The NCO's at the non-tradoc installations should have higher standards than they do. Senior NCO's should be paying more attention to squad leaders and platoon sergeants.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 5:17 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 17:17:44 -0400

Absolutely! Dear baby Jesus some people are straight dirt bags!

Response by SPC John Lee made Apr 19 at 2015 6:59 PM

SPC John Lee — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 18:59:26 -0400

It is the duty of ALL commissioned and non commissioned personnel to maintain military standards. Drill Instructors are for training commands.
Should all private companies hire elementary school teachers to insure proper conduct in their place of business?
Same thing.

Response by CW5 Jim Steddum made Apr 19 at 2015 8:28 PM

CW5 Jim Steddum — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 20:28:21 -0400

Soldier, NCOs, Warrants, and Officers should simply enforce standards.

Response by SPC Sean O'Sullivan made Apr 19 at 2015 8:28 PM

SPC Sean O'Sullivan — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 20:28:28 -0400

NO, NCO's should do their jobs. Enforce the std. is one of those jobs. A lot of these kids fresh out of training have never been away from home and now have at least some modicum of freedom from mommy and daddy and don't know how to act. Passing the buck for shit leadership from the NCO's isn't the answer.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 8:29 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 20:29:11 -0400

A loss of discipline is a leadership issue.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 8:38 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 20:38:36 -0400

If we would quit babying people and maybe a little old fashioned wall to wall counseling, this wouldn't be an issue. They know you can't do anything to them, drill sgt or not. You can't even give a private a proper smoking anymore without having to worry about their feelings being hurt. If we keep catering to everyone who comes in today and not enforce good order and discipline them we will continue to see the disrespect and poor military bearing we are getting out of some now. For those who are disciplined and mature, you're doing a good
Job!

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 8:43 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 20:43:37 -0400

Definitely not. That would be an enormous waste of money and manpower with almost no return of any kind. Unless you think that's going to make soldiers better fighters, you're talking about a cosmetic issue.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 9:02 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 21:02:40 -0400

Drill Sergeants serve a purpose to train the standard and incite discipline to the Initial Entry Soldier.

Sergeants (of all ranks within the enlisted NCO corps) hold the same authority and responsibility at the unit level. The issue is not a lack of authority or purpose, but the degradation of the corps by those who do not wish to live the standard.

The solution is not to put brown-and-rounds at every post. The solution is to enforce the standard at all levels. If the "NCO" is refusing to fulfill his/her role, they do not deserve the chevrons, nor the pay associated with them. Bust them down and/or kick them out. The creed doesn't change just because you don't want to do the job you're paid to do.

"My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind—accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers. I will strive to remain technically and tactically proficient. I am aware of my role as a noncommissioned officer. I will fulfill my responsibilities inherent in that role. All Soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; I will provide that leadership"

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 9:11 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 21:11:08 -0400

Regular Army NCO's? If there is a lack of discipline it doesn't need Drill Sergeants to fix it. If you were having this issue in your Squad don't you think that it would be your responsibility to check the NCO's in your squad? I know that I have issues from time to time with my soldiers and I handle it appropriately. I don't need a big "Brown Round" to do it for me. All NCO's should be able to handle their soldiers. Some may be more lax than others but they should always be able to handle their soldiers. If they cant then maybe that "NCO" is the problem or maybe the Soldier is just putting himself/herself on a road for bad things. Self reflection is a wonderful thing. I am in no way perfect and have been known to let some things slide, but when it needs to be a certain way I always make sure my soldiers know what is going on. The "kick in the butt" you talk about should be coming from the NCO's above you. I know if im messing up my Platoon SGT Always corrects me and have in fact been corrected by a 1SG and SGM at least once in my career.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2015 9:43 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 21:43:59 -0400

no because while effective at first it will rapidly degrade into a sort of daycare for soldiers no one wants to deal with and or the ncos in charge would eventually lose their discipline over time defeating the purpose. if their was some way to guarantee that wouldn't happen then hell yes all the way

Response by SSG Scott Burk made Apr 19 at 2015 10:37 PM

SSG Scott Burk — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 22:37:17 -0400

The unit 1SG is the one who sets the tone of the Battery/Company. If he's lax, so shall his subordinates be. No DS is needed to kick ass when needed.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Apr 19 at 2015 10:44 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Sun, 19 Apr 2015 22:44:58 -0400

Because regular Sgts can't enforce discipline?

Response by Capt Brandon Charters made Apr 20 at 2015 12:03 AM

Capt Brandon Charters — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 00:03:12 -0400

Love to hear SFC Chad Sowash's thoughts on this one.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 2:53 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 02:53:19 -0400

SGT

This is your wheelhouse, this is your responsibility as the first NCO in their chain to enforce the standards. You should not be looking to pass that to someone else. If you think this should be someone else's job then you need to turn in those stripes. This isn't only your fault, but it is your chance to say the excuses stop with me. YOU stand up and stop them, YOU stop your battles from letting things go, YOU are supposed to be the back bone and enforcer of standards at the lowest level.

Go and read Be, Know, Do. If your still wearing the uniform then you need to change your mentality on this.

Response by SFC Chad Sowash made Apr 20 at 2015 7:10 AM

SFC Chad Sowash — Mon, 20 Apr 2015 07:10:25 -0400

No, Drill Sergeants are to provide the basic foundation of skills, PT and value systems. It's the shock and awe of the solderization process. The newly minted soldiers are then handed off to their units where fully capable NCO's should be leading the charge.

If the soldier is 8-up it's the job of unit leadership to guide them. That's what a paper trail and Article 15's were created.

Response by SPC Sean Barney made Apr 21 at 2015 12:19 AM

SPC Sean Barney — Tue, 21 Apr 2015 00:19:59 -0400

I don't think so, The major reason being that the drill sergeants job was that while training you they are meant to stress you out and evaluate how you handle yourself under that stress. Short of actually shooting at you with bullets this is the closest they can simulate a war like level of stress, the constant abuse and mind games.

Having these people doing this job, all the time, even for those soldiers who have been in the military for over 4 years and have mulitple deployments. Would just get annoying honestly, Some times in the your career there are moments when some shit happens, your boot lace snaps, you tear your uniform while working. And you just carry on with your day so the work isn't disrupted. Add these "installation drills" and suddenly your efforts to get the job done on time land you in the middle of a shark attack of some Senior NCO whos only job on that base is to be a dick.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 3:48 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2015 15:48:37 -0400

No, but I respect the creativity of the idea. It just is not feasible.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 12:20 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2015 12:20:02 -0400

In processing to the EUSA has something similar to what you describe above. Mostly, though, it only familiarizes soldiers with the culture and history of the theater. But it would also be a perfect time for the Basic-refresher you describe above.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 4:08 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2015 16:08:26 -0400

All this means is NCO's are not doing their jobs. But what do you expect, if you have a degree you start as an e-4 and promoteable after only a year with a waiver.

Response by SGT Philip Jefferson made Jun 18 at 2015 12:30 PM

SGT Philip Jefferson — Thu, 18 Jun 2015 12:30:28 -0400

No it should be handled at the unit level before it even got that far out of hand

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2015 4:40 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Dec 2015 16:40:11 -0500

No as a soldier it is our job to enforce the standards and discipline at all levels of it shouldn't be left up to the army to place sergeants everywhere if they aren't enforcing it from the top leaders you can't expect the lower soldiers to comply they follow who leads them. Can't expect the body to be straight if the head is crooked

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 10:20 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:20:25 -0400

Hell yeah, they should. Something about that 'round brown' being in close proximity always made you wanna straighten up a bit.

Response by CPL Vada Harris made Dec 9 at 2016 6:50 PM

CPL Vada Harris — Fri, 09 Dec 2016 18:50:49 -0500

Hell yeah motivation

Response by PFC Cedric Powell made Oct 5 at 2017 5:06 PM

PFC Cedric Powell — Thu, 05 Oct 2017 17:06:14 -0400

No need, if leadership cannot enforce the standard, it is time to go home. It is that plain and simple.

Response by SFC Mark DeJesus made Oct 5 at 2017 10:38 PM

SFC Mark DeJesus — Thu, 05 Oct 2017 22:38:32 -0400

I think drill sergeants must be placed back on AIT and also add them in WLC A academy

Response by SFC Dennis A. made Oct 6 at 2017 11:13 AM

SFC Dennis A. — Fri, 06 Oct 2017 11:13:18 -0400

Drill Sergeant don't need to be everywhere, if the situation is that bad it tells me that a lot of NCO's and Officers are not doing their jobs.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2017 11:22 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Oct 2017 11:22:05 -0400

While I firmly believe that Drill Sergeants should be in AIT, I do not see the need for them in regular units or post. If the NCO's at that unit cannot enforce a standard then something is wrong.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Oct 6 at 2017 3:01 PM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Fri, 06 Oct 2017 15:01:38 -0400

Leadership (CC/Top/1stSgt) Should be able to handle this...if not, they either need to step down or be removed!

Response by CW3 Kim B. made Oct 11 at 2017 1:04 PM

CW3 Kim B. — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 13:04:08 -0400

Drill Sargeants belong at OSUT, BCT and AIT but not at every installation. CoC can handle their own Soldiers but in AIT it is harder. TAC SGTs aren't always trained to handle IET Soldiers and there are not always PLs. Most of the PLs are temporary so there is a lot of transition.

Response by SPC Rob Lewis made Oct 11 at 2017 2:11 PM

SPC Rob Lewis — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 14:11:43 -0400

No DS are for training. The company/base leadership need to do their jobs. But if leadership is more worried about politics vs. performance and don't set the example, don't wait for someone else to clean up your mess.

Response by MAJ Bill Riddle made Oct 11 at 2017 10:50 PM

MAJ Bill Riddle — Wed, 11 Oct 2017 22:50:26 -0400

No courtesy patrols these days?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2017 12:14 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Oct 2017 00:14:52 -0400

They phased out Drill Sergeants at Medcomm AIT Fort Sam Houston. There were valid reasons for having drill sergeants but I know as with Lackland AFB there were many "fraternization infractions" which fell back on superior /subordinate boundaries being blurred. I know basic Tradoc posts have drill cadre who work hellish long days but when troops are at an MOS-producing school there are sometimes 6h blocks where the trainees are not with their Drill sergeants anyway.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2017 1:05 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Oct 2017 01:05:09 -0400

The Army should not have Drill Sergeants at every installation. The whole purpose of Basic Training is to break you down and make you into an asset that the US Military can use and mold into whatever it sees fit. Once these soldiers hit the fleet it is on the NCOs and SNCOs to ensure these soldiers are keeping up to Army Standards. If there is a breakdown in discipline that's failure on the leadership for not enforcing the regulations.

Response by SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres made Oct 12 at 2017 4:30 AM

SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres — Thu, 12 Oct 2017 04:30:55 -0400

Its the NCOs' job to enforce the standard, and it's every other NCOs' job to ensure that NCO has backup when necessary. And if you are one of those NCO's that states," hey , that's my Soldier don't you try to correct him" - you are dead wrong. Any deficiency I saw, I corrected.

Also the best Officers I ever had were the ones that supported the NCOs, not Joe. It's obviously a case by case basis based on scenario, but an Officer needs the support of the NCO and vice versa.

I will never forget one of my COs telling me that if a problem is occurring that both he and the 1SG would back me up! That was so impressive to me. That's a real leader.

Response by SSG Billyray Musselman made Oct 12 at 2017 8:55 AM

SSG Billyray Musselman — Thu, 12 Oct 2017 08:55:05 -0400

I think a lot of the power was taken from the NCO Corps once the Big Army started caring about peoples feelings, what people were offended by and the use of stress cards and being politically correct...

The Army has gotten soft and it's showing through the soldiers it produces!!!!!!!
Bring back the old Army....

Soldiers have all the power now... If their offended by anything such as fowl language, how they were approached, how you looked at them, how the soldier perceived what happened...... They will use that open door and do everything that they can to get you in trouble....

This is a Huge problem, and its effecting how the Army is weeding out soldiers who are not mentally fit, no self discipline and failing to adapt to a military lifestyle and standards. As a result these soldiers are pushed to their first assignments and their new NCO's are wonder WTF is going on at TRADOC....

Placing a Drill SGT at every installation is not the right answer... It all starts at TRADOC... Fix the pipe line....

Response by SGT Timothy Stuart made Jan 3 at 2021 3:48 PM

SGT Timothy Stuart — Sun, 03 Jan 2021 15:48:15 -0500

I vote no on this question.

Why should we create something new to handle a problem when there is already a mechanism for handling that problem? If the SM is ate up, then an NCO should be correcting them. If their NCO isn’t doing so, then their SNCO should be correcting that NCO and supervising the NCO correcting the SM. If that’s not happening then the 1srSgt should be doing the same to the SNCO, and etc, etc, and etc. Everyone up and down those SMs Chain of Command and NCO channels are responsible for MAINTAINING good order and discipline.

Response by SFC Don Ward made Jan 3 at 2021 6:20 PM

SFC Don Ward — Sun, 03 Jan 2021 18:20:32 -0500

There used to be such an animal, called it CCF (Correctional Custody Facility) and it was a mini basic training for soldiers that messed up, more than an Article 15 but not enough for Leavenworth. It wasn't PC so they got rid of it.

Response by SGT Randall Smith made Jan 4 at 2021 1:15 PM

SGT Randall Smith — Mon, 04 Jan 2021 13:15:46 -0500

Sloppy starts from the top down. If the officers don't care then why would the NCO's? Who is going to back them up when needed. Don't rock the boat or hurt any one's feelings. Most times when I got into trouble I could go to my TOP and he would help straighten it out or straighten me out. If I didn't like it there was no where to go. The CSM would always back the 1SG and you just dug the hole deeper. However, when I was a squad leader E-4 I knew the 1SG would back me up. If I was wrong he corrected me in private. I learned that way.