Should the Army stop displaying the flag incorrectly?

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 13:40:19 -0400

<P>Before anyone comments that it isn't displayed incorrectly, please hear me out! <BR></P>
<P>I absolutely understand that it is displayed so that it appears that the flag is moving forward into battle, rather than retreating from battle. I like the argument.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>However according to US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, the Union is always to appear to the observers left. It does mention that a "flag patch" may be warn on the uniforms of the members of the Armed Forces, but it does not say that it should have the Union appear the observers right, if worn on the right shoulder. </P>
<P> </P>
<P>Instead of making up arbitrary excuses for why we don't follow the US Flag Code shouldn't we just wear it the correct way, or petition the Congress to pass an amendment to the Code to allow for us to wear it this way?<BR><BR>Here is a few quotes from the U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1. These are the only quotes that I could find after actually reading the entire chapter, (which took me a couple of hours) if you find any more please let me know!<BR><BR>Also, if I understand the law structure correctly, this supercedes the UCMJ and definitely supercedes AR 670-1. If I am incorrect on that, please let me know as well! Thank you!<BR> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Calibri>“The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN>When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender." (U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(b))</FONT></FONT></FONT></P><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Calibri><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>"When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN>to the flag's own right, that is, to the observer's left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street."(U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 7(i))</FONT></P><o:p>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>"No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN>However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN>The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN>Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart."<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </SPAN>(U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8(j))<o:p></o:p></FONT></P></o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT>

Response by MAJ Bryan Zeski made Apr 6 at 2014 2:25 PM

MAJ Bryan Zeski — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 14:25:51 -0400

The easiest solution is to move the flag from the right shoulder to the left shoulder - which solves two problems at once:<div><br></div><div>1. It moves the flag to the left of the wearer - closest to the heart.</div><div>2. It puts the blue field back on the observer's left - as intended.</div><div><br></div><div>BONUS benefit: It still looks like its charging into battle!</div><div><br></div><div>Its a win-win-win for everyone!</div>

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 6 at 2014 2:30 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 14:30:19 -0400

Hey!  Who told you to think!!?!?  Cut it out!

Response by MSG Cameron Davis made Apr 6 at 2014 2:39 PM

MSG Cameron Davis — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 14:39:34 -0400

SPC(P) Needham, you make a very good argument. When I was in Italy, we actually wore it under the 173rd patch on the left shoulder. The flag was always flying in the correct manner then. After our first deployment 2003 to Iraq, the 173rd converted to the right shoulder flag patch.

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Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Apr 6 at 2014 2:45 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 14:45:15 -0400

My theory has always been that one of our main suppliers accidentally made a ton of them backwards. To save face, some company rep probably convinced some General, who may or may not be invested in the company, to pitch the backwards flag idea. In exchange, guaranteed job for the General upon retirement. We've all heard the story line about it flying backwards into battle. That's not part of "our history" that "flying backwards" speech was distributed with the new patches... That was never a part of our lexicon until the creation of ACU's.

Response by SFC Benjamin Harrison made Apr 6 at 2014 4:34 PM

SFC Benjamin Harrison — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 16:34:26 -0400

So riddle me this, when the Flag is suspended upon a flag pole,  the blue field with the stars are always next to the pole correct? Answer is yes, so depending on which side of the flag pole you are viewing the flag from, the stars and blue field may be to the left or the right correct? Again answer is yes. Bottom line we wear the flag on the right shoulder, thus we are a flag pole and thus it is displayed correctly, thus end of discussion. 

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Apr 6 at 2014 5:13 PM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 17:13:30 -0400

Who remembers the Chocolate Chips? This is a photo from Somalia in the 90s. The right side, or reverse that has dominated since Afghanistan is the result of cooperation between nations to readily identify nationality of Soldiers in multi-national task forces, it is worn on the arm that is raised to render a salute. If you deploy or are otherwise assigned to a multi national location, everyone wears the flag on the right, not just the Americans. Feel free to blame the New World Order or anyone else for our participation in One World Government that created the problem of flying our flag "backwards"...<img src="http://www.usnews.com/dims4/USNEWS/0e60244/ [login to see] /resize/652x%3E/quality/85/?url=%2Fcmsmedia%2Fc4%2F27b3698489f12eed422cedb4aa7a46%2F51911widemodern_somalia_011014.jpg" class="img-responsive block-generous" alt="A U.S. Marine patrols the streets of Kismayu, Somalia, on Dec. 20, 1992. " title="(Lynne Sladky/AP)" data-size="rectangle652" height="413" width="620"><div class="pta-link-card"><div class="pta-link-card-content"><div class="pta-link-card-title"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.usnews.com/dims4/USNEWS/0e60244/ [login to see] /resize/652x>/quality/85/?url=/cmsmedia/c4/27b3698489f12eed422cedb4aa7a46/51911widemodern_somalia_011014.jpg"></a></div><div class="pta-link-card-description">nA ¶ûE.eûGM·+äNø§»ª41Q$È%UîAÎ>´ó®¸}íÊýhÏÊ»Õ&}Ý«½)ÕÔ
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Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2014 7:52 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 19:52:40 -0400

This is a darned if you do, darned if you don't situation. The flag is to be in the position of honor, which would be our right shoulder, but then the flag looks as though it is retreating. If we wear the flag on our left shoulder then the star field is in the correct position but then the flag is not in the position of honor. There is no answer that is going to be 100% correct in this situation, so you have to compromise. For me, wearing the flag on the right shoulder is correct, since that puts the flag in the position of honor and where it would be if it were displayed on stage.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 6 at 2014 11:01 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 23:01:32 -0400

SPC Needham,<div><br></div><div>U.S. Code, Title 4, Chapter 1 applies only to the flag itself, not representations of the flag.  Our patch is not a flag; it is a representation of the flag.  We don't salute our patch, lower it to half mast, or illuminate it at night, because it is not a flag.  Therefore, Title 4 does not apply to our patch or how we display it.</div>

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Apr 6 at 2014 11:24 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Sun, 06 Apr 2014 23:24:19 -0400

SPC Needham, I want to commend for your courage to bring this issue up. I appreciate that you took the time to research and present this in a logical, methodical approach. I will re-engage this issue.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2014 12:01 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 00:01:36 -0400

Let's just do it the easy way and wear it over our heart - that way if your saluting someone the flag is always in the right position for viewing - the hell with the way the rest of the world wants to wear theirs. Putting it on the arm in a position to not look like we are retreating is just nonsense anyway - we do tactical withdrawals in order to gain an upper hand when needed.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2014 4:45 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 04:45:37 -0400

It's really too bad these dirt bags did not read the regulation before jumping into Normandy. They could have been somebody important, but instead they are wearing the flag the wrong way. Such a shame.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2014 4:46 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 04:46:43 -0400

Such anger with all these down votes. Ouch.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2014 4:49 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 04:49:52 -0400

On a similar note, it's too bad nobody squared this guy away for his tattoos and haircut.

Response by SSG Gerhard S. made Apr 7 at 2014 12:09 PM

SSG Gerhard S. — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 12:09:02 -0400

Here's one for you. When the flag is displayed suspended from two objects, either horizontally or vertically,and is therefore visible from both sides how is the Union oriented?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2014 5:43 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 17:43:43 -0400

The Good Idea Fairy is telling me that we should have an American flag patch on each shoulder with the canton facing forward.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Apr 7 at 2014 11:36 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Mon, 07 Apr 2014 23:36:25 -0400

The way I explain it to people is like this: Get a pole, put old Glory on the pole at the top, and march forward. Which way do the stars travel? The stars move and point in the direction which you march forward.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Apr 8 at 2014 9:13 AM

SGT Ben Keen — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 09:13:19 -0400

While you make good points, I think the answer will just end up being "That's the way it has always been done."

As far as the right side being a place of honor, the only thing that comes to mind is the way things were done when knights protected the public. Most knights fought right handed therefore they needed that side of their body open and clear to engage a threat. This sort of thing continues today if I'm not mistaken between two people, one being of senior rank. Is it not regulation that if say an E5 is walking with an E8, the E5 should be on the left and one pace behind?

Response by CW2 Stephen Pate made Apr 8 at 2014 12:25 PM

CW2 Stephen Pate — Tue, 08 Apr 2014 12:25:40 -0400

How about we remove it from the "UTILITY" uniform so me and my mechanics can stop getting it dirty whenever we are rolling around on the ground working on vehicles? I also think that we should remove everything from the uniform other than rank, name, and US Army, but that's just me.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jun 29 at 2014 10:21 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Sun, 29 Jun 2014 22:21:18 -0400

Excellent topic of discussion. Love the friendly banter, respect and professionalism shown by everyone involved!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2014 1:02 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 28 Aug 2014 13:02:49 -0400

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the US Flag Code a hortatory law?

Response by PO2 Carl W. made Sep 3 at 2014 12:34 PM

PO2 Carl W. — Wed, 03 Sep 2014 12:34:19 -0400

I normally don't chime in on these... The display of the flag is very important and this is not just something that affects the Army. Check out any vehicle in the military inventory Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard...

This is all addressed by the Institute of Heraldry. This is where all uniform, insignia, medals, etc, decisions are kept. Here is a link about the flag -
http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/FAQs/Faqs.aspx?hilite=Flag%20on%20uniforms

It is displayed with the union jack in the front to simulate one moving forward. Displaying it the other way would be indicating a retreat. If the flag is worn or painted on the left side, then the flag is one direction, if it's on the right, it's the other direction. Union jack always forward.

It's not backward, I don't know why there is even a discussion about this.

Response by MAJ Dallas D. made Nov 3 at 2014 3:55 PM

MAJ Dallas D. — Mon, 03 Nov 2014 15:55:25 -0500

Great debate, SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member Great research and well thought out question. Now my simple answer is the patch is not an actual flag so I am not sure it applies.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2014 6:25 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Nov 2014 18:25:37 -0500

The blue star field will always be in a position of honor, as previously stated.

Top left if its displayed on a wall or hanging vertical.

Top right if its moving forward.

You can notice this on an airplane with a flag on it. The left side of the plane has the star field at the top left. The right side of the plane has the star field at the top right.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2016 8:16 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Aug 2016 20:16:03 -0400

"How many angels can dance on the head or a pin?"

Okay. This has been a good thread, but (like others...IMO) the position of honor is on the right, and moving forward is much better. Good discussion.

I'm more concerned about MOS and basic branch competency. That didn't stop me from reading this thread, though! :D

Response by SP5 Greg Neal made May 14 at 2018 1:49 PM

SP5 Greg Neal — Mon, 14 May 2018 13:49:21 -0400

I should think what with our citizens burning/disrespecting our flag you'd have more pressing problems to address.

Response by MSgt Neil Greenfield made May 14 at 2018 2:27 PM

MSgt Neil Greenfield — Mon, 14 May 2018 14:27:06 -0400

Actually, although I like it, what is the purpose of the flag patch? It used to be something you wore if you were on UN duty if I remember correctly. You already have something that says ‘U.S. Army’. I never wore a flag patch when I wore fatigues or the BDUs.

Response by SSG Jim Foreman made May 14 at 2018 2:54 PM

SSG Jim Foreman — Mon, 14 May 2018 14:54:06 -0400

What truly amazes me is so many soldiers complaining about the way things are done in the military. How about shut the f up and do your job. None of you were drafted ....signed, a grumpy old veteran.

Response by SPC Margaret Higgins made May 14 at 2018 4:00 PM

SPC Margaret Higgins — Mon, 14 May 2018 16:00:22 -0400

The Army certainly didn't display the flag incorrectly when I served.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2018 4:39 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 May 2018 16:39:13 -0400

A solution in search of a problem.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2018 9:37 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 May 2018 21:37:09 -0400

If you really care about the flag and the US code, I recommend you stop whining about wearing a patch. Utilize your time and energy focusing on stopping the mutilation of our flag by "freedom of speech" protesters.

Response by SFC Don Ward made May 14 at 2018 10:09 PM

SFC Don Ward — Mon, 14 May 2018 22:09:43 -0400

One more thing for someone to whine about. Riddle me this, do your orders dictate what you do, or does an a section of administrative law dictate what you do. A lot of things we do run contrary to administrative law and regulations, but we do them anyway. A lot of what we do has waivers for admin law and regulations, or we couldn't get our jobs done. Quit trying to stir the pot and do your job.

Response by LTC John Griscom made May 15 at 2018 10:42 AM

LTC John Griscom — Tue, 15 May 2018 10:42:39 -0400

Check out how US Flag carriers (airlines) display the Flag. On the the aircraft's tail, the union is always facing forward.

Response by LTC Stephan Porter made Oct 17 at 2018 11:59 PM

LTC Stephan Porter — Wed, 17 Oct 2018 23:59:01 -0400

So, if I ran fed in battle carrying the flag, which we did in our history, then it would appear backwards and thereby be in violation of the code!

Response by LTC John Griscom made Oct 18 at 2018 2:14 PM

LTC John Griscom — Thu, 18 Oct 2018 14:14:20 -0400

The reason given is the Union of the Flag is always facing the front. Look at the way US Flagged airlines have the representation of the Flag on their aircraft.

Response by LTC John Griscom made Oct 18 at 2018 2:20 PM

LTC John Griscom — Thu, 18 Oct 2018 14:20:56 -0400

There's a key point missing here; the patch is not a flag.

Response by PVT Mark Zehner made Oct 19 at 2018 11:43 AM

PVT Mark Zehner — Fri, 19 Oct 2018 11:43:05 -0400

Always thought it was strange turn it around is my vote!

Response by CW2 Michael Metzler Sr. made Jul 23 at 2020 2:25 AM

CW2 Michael Metzler Sr. — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 02:25:48 -0400

NO! NO! NO! Did I say NO? LOL Pride and Honor!

Response by SGT Frank Fulcher made Aug 13 at 2020 3:17 PM

SGT Frank Fulcher — Thu, 13 Aug 2020 15:17:31 -0400

If you are wearing the flag on your right shoulder and turn to look at it... which side is the union on?