Should the Army support MOS specific PT tests?

MSG Bo Lathrop — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 22:19:55 -0500

I personally don't agree with it. As an Infantryman, I think all PT tests should be the same. What do you think?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 12 at 2014 10:26 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 22:26:50 -0500

Then would you agree for one standard for the ASVAB?

Response by SPC Dan Goforth made Feb 12 at 2014 11:44 PM

SPC Dan Goforth — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 23:44:38 -0500

SFC Lathrop, I wouldn't want 97 or 200+ different PT tests, but I do believe that the combat side (CMFs 11-19, and any medics, commo or maintenance personnel assigned to such units) should be able to set a higher standard, and maybe add an event or two. Some people just can't maintain the physical standards to be an infantryman or combat engineer, but would make great intel or commo soldiers, and shouldn't be assigned to ground combat line units.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 12:25 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 00:25:29 -0500

SFC Lathrop -

You bring up an interesting question. I agree with you that regardless or MOS PT tests should be them same. Here is why, a Soldier never knows what situation they may find themselves in. Even if they are not a Combat MOS they may find themselves in a combat situation regardless of their every day job. Secondly I support the idea that if you are in a USASOC unit even if it's in a support roll you should be able to meet USASOC standards as far as PT/Ruck/etc..This is really the only time I would see PT expectations being different from being in a standard Army unit.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 11:36 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 11:36:06 -0500

PT test should be the same across the Army. If they had different standards for different MOSs why not change weapons qualification standards for MOSs. Hell, just take aways weapons from all support MOSs.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 11:53 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 11:53:08 -0500

For the Corps, standards are all the same under the reason that every Marine is a rifleman.  

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 12:02 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 12:02:09 -0500

Makes no sense too me

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 12:37 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 12:37:56 -0500

I had the chance to help test physical demands for Comabat Engineers while I was on the trail. I think that the MOS Specific PT Test is more of a way to ensure that the Soldiers that are actually serving in those MOS's (not possibly) are physically able to perform the tasks that their specific MOS demands. The only real change that I would like to see is a gender neutral PT Test.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 12:42 PM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 12:42:30 -0500

Negative, I have now commanded in numerous units with varying MOS's, from 11B's to 88M's, and I can say that no matter what, it should not be different. After two deployments, I have learned that more often than not, once you hit ground, you will operate in a job that is outside of your MOS. Whether it's Truck Drivers performing Route Security missions to Infantrymen performing MP tasks. It's best that all PT tests maintain the same standard.  Another note: If a Soldier was to switch MOS's, this would require a new requirement for MOS transfers of a APFT at a different standard. BLUF: No, keep PT Tests the same. I agree with one other comment that what we should look at is Gender Neutral APFT standards.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 12:47 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 12:47:33 -0500

As MOSs become open to all and we attempt gender neutral standards, yes. This will be away to ensure that all Soldiers are able to perform the same basic physical tasks.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 1:15 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:15:03 -0500

While everyone debates about the PT test, I am going to physically train my body and read my ranger hand book while riding my spinner bike. LOL

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made Feb 13 at 2014 1:19 PM

SSG V. Michelle Woods — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:19:21 -0500

I'm not for or against an MOS specific PT test.

With that said, I had never thought of it this way but CPT Wolfer's point about the ASVAB makes perfect sense to me.

So why do we have different minimum GT score requirements for jobs but not different minimum physical requirements for jobs?

I'm open to changing my mind however I need to hear something legit.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 1:29 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:29:08 -0500

Look througout history, specifically the last 13 years and see an Army at war. Why should an infantryman be held to a different standard than that of a noninfantryman? Does anyone remember Jessicia Lynch? Her and her unit were in a combat zone ambushed and they were not infantry unit!

Every soldier should be held to the same standard: officer, enlisted, and MOS specific because when we deploy we are a soldier first, and those who cannot physically take the punishment of deployment should be weeded out.

Thats not to say infantry doesn't do more PT, because they do, and I dont expect those who work, say in the pentagon or non deployed status, to be held to say an olympic athlete status, because we all have a role to play in the Army. But we can have a common standard of fitness because when you are on a convoy you are all the same to the enemy...

One last thought: How many non-infantry units deployed as infantry-type roles?

Response by MSG Bo Lathrop made Feb 13 at 2014 1:39 PM

MSG Bo Lathrop — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:39:56 -0500

Wow.. I should have elaborated more in my initial response!

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Feb 13 at 2014 1:55 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 13:55:30 -0500

Again, this goes back to a standard being a true standard. Regardless of your MOS, if you are in this age bracket you are required to do many push ups and sit ups and run this fast to MEET THE STANDARD.

Another way to look at this, as a commo guy, I had reels of CX11230 cable that weighted a heck of a lot. We had to drive in 3, 5, 7, and 9 foot long grounding rods, carry antenna masts, lift the antenna heads, dig cable trenches and on and on. Would that mean the Signal Corps should have a PT test that reflects the necessary activities in regards to what ever 25 series the commo guy falls into? What would be the standard there? Run 2 miles with a 15 meter mast over your shoulder?

Again, the standard is THE standard for a reason. It should reflect the base line requirements to wear the uniform because really, at the end of the day, you can find yourself getting JOT on an MOS that you never thought you would be doing but is needed to fill a gap in the MTOE.

Response by CW2 Stephen Pate made Feb 13 at 2014 2:43 PM

CW2 Stephen Pate — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 14:43:08 -0500

The APFT, no matter how antiquated and worthless it may be, should be the same across the board. Someone else on here said it right, it's a measure of fitness not combat readiness. I wish it was updated, harder, covered more areas, and was gender neutral, but the same for all MOSs. Now when you start talking about MOS specific stuff...there is still no way to know if that SSG mechanic knows how to run a shop without a full 90 day broad spectrum microscope up his/her 4th point of contact. Neither is there anything out there (doctrine) that tells me I can trust that SFC scout platoon leader that the area is secure before I go recover his stuck HMMWV. It is still a rely on rank and hope they didn't skate by their whole career type of army when counting on others to know their job.

Response by SPC Andrew Craig made Feb 13 at 2014 6:52 PM

SPC Andrew Craig — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 18:52:12 -0500

hell no , we should all have the same standard regardless of age,gender,or mos. you may call me a fatty pog for it but i think the only change should be to change the weight standard a bit, i have seen far to many excellent soldier (who max their pt tests) miss promotions,and get chaptered for weight standard violations, i think a standard is still needed, but it need tweeked a bit. for instance, i had a soldier spc locklear that got chaptered for overweight, but the guy was a powerlifter. the man could lift the front end of a hwmmv by himself but couldn't pass tape.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 13 at 2014 7:52 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 19:52:40 -0500

This all boils down to personal accountability, motivation and doing a self-assessment. I am a Air Defender and even though I spend the majority of my time sitting on my rear during an operational environment I other branches in the Army to be held to a higher standard than I am. But I understand the Army has preset Physical Fitness Standards that I must maintain nor do I feel that I should be exempt from maintaining them. If the the Army does decide to administer a MOS based PT test I will not object. Until then I will continue to comply to the Army's APFT requirements.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 9:10 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:10:41 -0500

Absolutely not. As a QM Soldier, I have spent many years in Combat Arms units. We are held to the same standards as them.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 9:47 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 09:47:36 -0500

I'm all for minimum standards for all Soldiers. However, The APFT is somewhat outdated. I don't ever remember reacting to contact then subsequently running two miles. Make a practical physical fitness test to establish the base line fitness level regardless of MOS then they can add to as needed.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 2:35 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 14:35:06 -0500

The thing that needs to change is the Army's definition of fitness. 90 pushups, 90 situps, and a 13:00 run is pretty fit. But can that same person deadlift 2x their body weight? Can he/she carry their battlebuddy out of harm's way? Can that person do a pullup? Can that person low-crawl across a football field?

See what I mean? The APFT is a poor gauge of physical fitness and soldier readiness.

You want to see how fit someone is? Pit him/her against the unknown. Have a large list of events to choose from and pull three at random. And tell 'em to do all the events back-to-back. Then see how they perform. Make it more like the CrossFit games, where the competitors are measured on their OVERALL fitness.

Also, make PT more like training to standard, and less like filling up an hour and a half because "the Army said so."

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 14 at 2014 6:22 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 18:22:58 -0500

Can someone please tell me where this USASOC policy that requires a 270 and above on your PT test is at? I've looked every where. Not even my S-1 can find it nor does the group s-1 know. Thanks

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 7:54 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 19:54:46 -0500

I don't agree. Each MOS does a different job and has different requirements. Two MOS' that I know-- 15U and 42A for examples:

Chinook rotor blades weigh upwards of 300 pounds. Sometimes you only have two people to carry them. If you are the one on the inboard end, you get the heavier end. Also, passing equipment up from and down to the ground. Yeah it sounds easy, but it gets heavy and tiring. Climbing up and down the aircraft all day will tire you out. Everything on the CH-47 is heavy, bulky, odd-shaped, and awkward to handle.

Working in an S-1 shop, the heaviest thing you are going to lift is the copier toner cartridge or occasionally a case of paper. Physical demands are nearly nil.

Those who reclass to/from different MOS' may have a rude awakening should MOS-specific PT tests be instituted! All Soldiers need to have a base level of fitness. Thus this is why we have one standard. Now to get male and female standards the same...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 8:03 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 20:03:33 -0500

I don't agree. As a Personnel SGT I feel we need to have high standards because it is very easy to fall off when sitting behind a desk everyday. When I was an Active Component Soldier PT was the most important time of the day because that was the time of the day when a Company Can get together and do the same thing. Working in S-1 when a new soldier arrives to a unit The S-1 section is the first place where they report to. What kind of impression does it give a new soldier when the first person they come in to contact with on arrival has an appearance of being unfit?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 8:10 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 20:10:02 -0500

The question should be should the PT test be the same across the military. As we are seeing more Joint Bases and there are more Joint Operation positions opening, how does it look when you have a soldier and a sailor or a marine and an airman works side by side but have different PT standards.

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Jan 8 at 2015 6:11 AM

Sgt Adam Jennings — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 06:11:49 -0500

Everyone should be held to the same physical standards regardless of MOS. There is no "in the rear with the gear" with this eeney we fight now.

Response by SSG Christopher Parrish made Jan 8 at 2015 9:58 AM

SSG Christopher Parrish — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 09:58:45 -0500

I think the APFT should be the same across the board. That doesn't mean there can't be an MOS specific test in addition, to make sure troops can meet those specific needs.

Take the PT scores required as an Infantryman and then compare them to RASP or SFQC, they are all different but everyone has to pass the basic Soldier PT test.

Response by PVT John Williams made Jan 24 at 2015 4:21 PM

PVT John Williams — Sat, 24 Jan 2015 16:21:07 -0500

Oh hell no. They should be the same.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2015 6:50 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 06:50:17 -0500

same across the board....no difference between Soldiers