Should the cadence calling be left to the enlisted and NCO's?

2014-08-12T10:40:51-04:00

Since I've been in, it has been an unspoken rule that no officers (warrants included) dont call cadence. There have been times where I had to run a LT off the 'mic'. Leave it to the young hooahs and NCOs to keep the company/troop/battery/det/ fired up. What say you?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2014 10:50 AM

2014-08-12T10:50:13-04:00

In an aviation unit (officer and warrant officer heavy), I've noticed two things. First, cadence is known by only a select few. Second, on a long, BN level or higher run, because of only a select few being skilled in the art of cadence calling, it reverts to whoever knows one gets out there and executes. While PT/cadence is usually NCO driven, if they want to be the only ones calling cadence, they need to ensure that they are on their game and capable of keeping it going throughout the whole run. If we get to a point where the NCO/enlisted level has exausted their supply of cadence and/or motivation, I have no problem with a motivated WO or Officer stepping up.

I remember as a young Platoon Leader when the Soldier responsible for PT that day didn't have a plan and I stepped up and led the morning session--it ensured that my Platoon Sergeant took responsibility for the program and never again did I have any problems with the NCO/enlisted not being prepared to lead PT.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2014 10:51 AM

2014-08-12T10:51:35-04:00

As long as the troops are motivated, I personally don't think it matters. With that said.... NCOS need to get out there so other don't have to do it.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2014 1:25 PM

2014-08-12T13:25:09-04:00

The only time I've called cadence is when the NCO's weren't getting it done. I believe that's NCO business and it's a good way to build confidence and a warrior voice that can be heard above the din of battle. As with everything though, if the NCO's don't get it done, it becomes officer business.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Aug 12 at 2014 1:32 PM

2014-08-12T13:32:17-04:00

One thing to remember is that NCO tasks and responsibilities are technically delegated to them from the officer in charge, so while calling cadence, conducting training, etc is traditionally viewed as "NCO business," that doesn't mean an officer can't slide conduct that task or training themselves. So while it may be unusual for an officer to call cadence, it's not necessarily wrong....particularly, as @CPT David Valencia stated, in units that are officer heavy.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2014 2:29 PM

2014-08-12T14:29:40-04:00

OH HELL NO! O's need to stay out of the cadence business! I'm with SSG Brad Porter on this one...if your NCO's are permitting O's to call cadence ALL of the NCO's in that run - from the Top E-9 to bottom rung NCO should be lined up and B!yachi $lapped - once on each cheek!

O's - stay with the crayons! Stay outa NCO business!

Nuff said....off soapbox

Continue the big suck

Response by SPC Richard White made Aug 12 at 2014 2:34 PM

2014-08-12T14:34:22-04:00

All ranks should be calling cadence.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2014 3:11 PM

2014-08-12T15:11:01-04:00

Though it rarely happened ( can count on one hand) I had no problem with an Officer jumping out there to call PT. In fact it made one less to gaggle at the rear of the formation anyway. However, I did not allow it to go on for a long period of time. After a few minutes I simply yelled out, "Thank You Sir!", either took over myself or called out one of NCOs to take over. I feel it was a good motivator plus it allowed me to pour a little gas on any NCO who didn't like it, yet did not have their ass out there already.

Response by CPL Charles Gale made Aug 12 at 2014 3:23 PM

2014-08-12T15:23:55-04:00

Even though it might be a simple pt run or a marching formation, I believe that cadence calling is a time for NCOs to mentor younger Soldiers. With that being said I don't see a problem with an Officer or Warrant Officer to call cadence as long as troop are motivated and learning something if possible.

Response by SGT Chris Birkinbine made Aug 12 at 2014 3:31 PM

2014-08-12T15:31:57-04:00

My LT called cadence quite often. Not only do I think it shouldn't be a "no-go" but I think it should be a requirement. Part of calling cadence is keeping everyone in synch. To borrow a term from Corporate world, it is "Synergy". There is bonding in singing funny, or pride filled cadence, and including your Officer in on that is essential. Officers are part the platoon, and that bond/cohesion needs to be fostered with them just as much as with NCO's.

Seeing your Officers segregate themselves in every aspect leads to discontent.

That is just my opinion.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2014 4:53 PM

2014-08-12T16:53:10-04:00

Cadence is NCO business.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2014 4:57 PM

2014-08-12T16:57:50-04:00

yes because NCO are the back bone and an officer can not train a NCO but an NCO can train a officer

Response by PO1 Michael G. made Aug 12 at 2014 10:07 PM

2014-08-12T22:07:04-04:00

Yes; I feel like it helps us (junior enlisted) get a little more motivated when it's a peer, rather than a superior helping to motivate us. It also gives another dimension to leadership experience. I called cadence for my class in my last school and I loved it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2014 10:34 PM

2014-08-12T22:34:27-04:00

The purpose of unit PT is to strengthen unit cohesion and increase motivation. If an officer "takes it" on my motivated left foot then why would I stop him/her? That would defeat the entire purpose of PT. Cadence can be sung by all regardless of rank because EVERYONE can bring something to the table to strengthen the cohesion from E-1 to O-9. As I have made a career move by seeking a commission, I would be mad as hell if someone stopped me from motivating the unit. Its counter productive and doesn't prove a thing. PT is always best when there is max participation and on a side note from an NCO perspective, you get to see if your juniors are able to step up to the challenge.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2014 9:02 AM

2014-08-13T09:02:21-04:00

It is an unwritten rule, but it is Enlisted business. I feel motivated if I see a Soldier get out there and call cadence.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2014 9:54 AM

2014-08-13T09:54:59-04:00

When I retire, one of things I will always remember is the cadence. Personally, I don't care who calls it (me, NCO or a O-Grade) but NCO's do need to step up and be the ones who take the lead on cadence. On a different topic, cadence these days are definitely different from when I came in, we were still calling old Vietnam/80's type of cadence. Today, I here some of the cadence and it sounds like a Pop Song :-), I don't even know what they are saying most of the time. Too complicated for me. :-) or I'm just getting too old.

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Aug 13 at 2014 11:17 AM

2014-08-13T11:17:53-04:00

I once had a platoon sergeant that when something bad happened, he didn't yell, he didn't scream, he would take us on long runs (10 milers). In one particular incident after someone got a DUI at the gate, we found ourselves on a particularly demoralizing run. As we came out of the woods onto the road, it dawned on us we were about 6 miles from the back gate at Ft. Lewis. Moral was hovering above the planet's core. The PL then hopped out and started calling some funkey cadences with a huge amount of motivation. It did what cadences are supposed to do and picked us up and we finished the run. Sure did piss off the PSG though. That said, I do think cadence calling is beneath the dignity of the office of Commander or Platoon Leader. I wouldn't really have objections to a staff officer doing it, but that job would suck the motivation out of a cheer leader so I doubt they would want to.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Aug 13 at 2014 11:23 AM

2014-08-13T11:23:13-04:00

I was really good at calling cadence when I was in the E-ranks. Then I got into the O-ranks and had brain freeze, brain lock, and continuous brain farts.

I would run/walk beside my platoon/company but the NCO's were the cadence callers, mind readers, and generally spent their time trying to teach me the Army Way.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2014 11:45 AM

2014-08-13T11:45:33-04:00

The "Unspoken" rule that NCOs are the ones calling the cadence is based on Army tradition. We as NCOs are responsible for leading training on all aspects. We are the ones responsible for our Soldiers, so we do this.

Can an officer call cadence? If his NCO counterpart (1SG for Company commander, PSG for PL and so on) is ok with it, then party on. However, it is the NCO's responsibility to ensure that officer is not counterproductive to the Soldier's fitness training. If the PSG sees that the PL is far better equipped to lead PT than he/she is, it is then the PSG's prerogative to utilize that PL to run PT so his Soldiers get the best training possible, while the PSG works to improve himself/herself to remedy this shortcoming.

It is also our responsibility to understand the PURPOSE of cadence: timing and motivation. This is where our current Army is lacking, many units have decided to stop calling cadence because the same cadences over and over again are not motivating, or it is counter-motivating to be reduced to politically correct ONLY cadences. If you as an NCO know that a formation run in step at the pace of the slowest man will NOT benefit your Soldiers, (by "know" i mean: you can justify it and back it up) then it is your responsibility NOT to do it. At the same time, if you realize that you need your Soldiers to slow down, stay together, move as a single unit, whether it's just a matter of all screaming together for the sake of it, or to help push the slowest in the group to push just a little harder just a little bit more, then it is your responsibility as the NCO to run in formation with cadence.

Have a group that hates cadence running? challenge them to make up their own? Offer prizes in categories for craziest, funniest, most/least politically correct, etc. and let the prize be a 3-day pass, or throw a pie at the PL's face at the next FRG function.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2014 1:04 PM

2014-08-13T13:04:17-04:00

i see that everyone is on fire about what i said please let me make this clear that this is how i feel and that NCO's should to there job when it come to calling cadence we have to many NCO's just getting the rank and not doing what NCO's are to do but that's just how i feel

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2014 1:18 PM

2014-08-13T13:18:32-04:00

The few times I've seen an officer get out and call cadence were on long runs after ALL NCOs had a turn, or when specifically called on (challenged) by the 1SG to do so. The latter case was pre-arranged before the run, and the officer in question was a former drill sergeant.

Never saw a problem with it in those situations. Officers shouldn't get out there as a matter of habit, but occasionally and under the right circumstances it can be a morale booster.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2014 1:34 PM

2014-08-13T13:34:54-04:00

It should be left to the NCOs, but let's call it what it is. We have a lot of NCOs who cannot call cadences because they don't know how to

Response by MAJ Haris Balcinovic made Aug 13 at 2014 2:00 PM

2014-08-13T14:00:25-04:00

As a former NCO - I loved calling cadence whether run or march - it's just something that instilled and motivated me and my soldiers - I think that a lot of NCOs don't realize how many officers used to be enlisted or NCOs themselves. I say that with a caveat. I think that at a squad/platoon/company level it should be something that incorporates and bonds the young officers in the unit. I'm not saying that it should be a common day occurrence but during those fun runs and unit times I don't see anything wrong with it.
As a company commander - I always preached involvement to my PLs especially the young ones and I encouraged them to partake in the platoon events. It's team building. Once officers get past the company command and get into staff positions, and up to field grade level - sure let the NCOs handle it, but while the young LTs are still with their platoons I don't see why not. If nothing it can serve to bridge the common gap between the enlisted and officer world. We all know the commonplace events that take place - and all the LT jokes that come from the enlisted side. Why segregate them (LTs) at that level, it's a two fold benefit, one the LTs get to understand the lower enlisted side and appreciate what Soldiers go through so later on in their careers they can remember that when making decisions, two it lets the lower enlisted and NCOs understand that young officers are part of the team and not just some dumbe a$$ lieutenants or captains. Food for thought.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2014 4:55 PM

2014-08-13T16:55:48-04:00

let me start off by saying that i have misunderstood what we was talking about when it came to calling cadence and when i said that a officer can not train a NCO i was looking at it when you go to boot-camp where the drill sergeant call all cadence's or when you go to OCS school if my words have made anyone upset or think other wise i am sorry about that and i can say this anyone can train

Response by SSG Adrian Ducker made Aug 13 at 2014 5:24 PM

2014-08-13T17:24:12-04:00

Cadence may for the most part be NCO business but that doesn't mean we should tell officers to back off if they want to do it for motivational purposes during a battalion or brigade run. On more than one occasion I remember an outgoing commander singing on his final run before a COC, for example.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2014 5:41 PM

2014-08-13T17:41:58-04:00

If I'm in that run, I'm calling cadence. I have no idea why Leaders are scared to get out there. All you have to do practice when you run by yourself or in small groups. When i was a PSG, when we do PLT runs ALL my Soldiers call cadence. That's when my guys practice so when its troop/company run time the Soldiers already have confidence. Even if its just left, right, left. My guys would go out there and get it done.
Only time an officer will call cadence is when my commander gives me that "I'm calling cadence, this is my troop, move out the way" look. He was pretty good too but he WAS prior enlisted. lol.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Aug 14 at 2014 8:49 PM

2014-08-14T20:49:23-04:00

This is a silly question. Everyone knows that officers aren't fast enough to keep up with the NCO's anyway. So who cares if they call cadence....no one will hear it. (Thats right I said it! Now bring it!)

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 15 at 2014 8:26 AM

2014-08-15T08:26:17-04:00

Yes.

Response by SSG Jim Handy made Aug 16 at 2014 9:50 PM

2014-08-16T21:50:56-04:00

Moving troops and calling cadence has always been part of the NCO tradition and it should remain that way. Some things are just NCO business and officers should keep their noses out of it, and calling cadence is one of those things.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2014 1:13 PM

2014-08-20T13:13:24-04:00

I personally love cadence Calling when we run during PT even though I am not exceptionally good at it. It motivates me anytime we run and helps me forget the pain during the run. I think beside Rank, we are all soldiers and I think it will be nice for Officers to call Cadence. I have officers in my previous command call cadence when we run even though it if frown upon. I can mention CPT Ackah of 54th QM CO out of Fort Lee, Lt. Stern also out of the same company. I think most officers want to but the culture prevents them from doing so.

Response by SFC Craig Dalen made Mar 16 at 2016 4:29 PM

2016-03-16T16:29:05-04:00

I honestly believe this is enlisted business. I grew up in a unit where PFC through Sergeant was a requirement you sing cadence. It allows you to get out of your comfort zone and be in charge of something to get over what ever it is you may be nervous about. As a SPC I went to PLDC and had no problems singing cadence or performing the D&C requirements because I was mentored and molded to do it early in my career. I seen some MOS's that this was there first time ever in front of any size element and I thought it was sad then. This is something I hold near and dear to my heart and enforce within my Platoon regularly...

Response by CPT Earl George made Oct 7 at 2016 10:22 PM

2016-10-07T22:22:54-04:00

I commanded a BCT company at Ft Knox. Cadence calling was left to the Drill Sergeants. However, My unit received the swine flu vaccination during one cycle and one day we had 2 drill sergeants and myself to march the company back to the barracks. 4 years of being on the drill team in college helped me tremendously. On a good day, jody would never knew what hit her.

Response by CPT Chris Loomis made Nov 15 at 2017 12:03 PM

2017-11-15T12:03:19-05:00

So, question for the masses:

What if the Officer is a former NCO, knows how to call a pretty decent cadence, and does so from time to time? Not taking over the task from the NCOs. Just interjecting himself into the process of Soldiering.

The Officer simply wants to stay connected to the Troops, and build that team.

What is everybody’s thoughts???

Response by SPC Robert Coventry made Nov 15 at 2017 1:29 PM

2017-11-15T13:29:08-05:00

NCO and enlisted only